Viet Nam Veterans, Please Help Me Understand: How could a Viet Nam Vet be so conservative

[Mike03]

as to "hate" Dems.

I really was too young to follow the Viet Nam war, but recently I have met a Veteran of that war who I really admire, except for the fact that he is extremely conservative. He's incredibly brave and courageous, and I have nothing but admiration for him and what he went through, but he makes fun of liberals.

He thinks Bush is a great president.

And I know from listening to his recollections from the war that he has been through total and complete hell in that war and probably has PTSD. My question, which is probably naive, is simply: How could anyone go through the Viet Nam War and still have more faith in conservatives than Liberal Dems? I just don't get how this can be.

[fenriswolf]

1. some people "thrive" on war and destruction.

Or at least they aren't horrified by it.

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

2. The Nam vets are just plain getting old,that's why.

[jody]

7. Nam vets may be getting old but not necessarily senile. n/t

[WinkyDink]

20. Many are my age, 57+. That may be old to you, but it isn't to us.

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

30. Fifty seven is young to me,I'm much older,but 57 is getting

pretty far along whether you feel it or not.

Attitudes change,and the old clock keeps ticking.

[Submariner]

3. I'm still a Liberal

It is said that folks become more conservative as the get older. I call that the onset of dementia.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. There could be two things in play here:

1. I have known a shitload of vets who really served in The Nam. None of them were particularly conservative. In fact, most were quite liberal. On the other hand, the conservative, war-mongering, Dem-hating ones were those who served back in those days, but not in The Nam, but like to say they are Nam vets, or were REMFs who never saw any action outside of a Saigon bar. Or never really served at all. There are those as well.

2. It is possible that he is what he says, and that he has embraced the whole Repuke enchilada to somehow validate himself and what he has done. That said, I am still skeptical. See #1.

[Mike03]

10. I appreciate your post, and all of the other posts.

He is what he says he is. And he's not senile or very old, so he must have been very young when he served.

He's not so much "filled with hate" as he is cynical, I guess. He seems very apathetic, but I know he hates Jane Fonda and seems to like McCain.

[bullwinkle428]

40. Does he hate John Kerry, as a fellow Vietnam vet?

[Toots]

47. How do you know he is what he says he is?

What "Hell" did he go through? What unit did he serve with and what battle or battles did they engage in? Just because he says he went through hell doesn't mean a damn thing, unless of course he thinks just being in Vietnam was "hell". Most people I know that have truly been through "hell" would never ever ever wish it on any one else. War and Combat are the absolute very last alternative.

[VP505]

5. Too many

reds (Seconal) in the 60's followed by too many Quaalude's in the 70's, its left him brain damaged. :crazy:

[MindPilot]

6. One doesn't presuppose the other

As with any group the politics don't always follow the way we think it should. My experience as a Vietnam vet--I saw the war from the deck of a ship--is that the experience solidified one's beliefs along two distinct lines. There are those who feel the war effort failed because it was not fought properly--the conservative "my country right or wrong" crowd--and then there are the anti-war types like me who see a failed war as the inevitable outcome of failed policy.

I have a tough time trying to figure out how there can be conservative Atheists, but they do exist.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Think who was in power when he went to war

that is part of your answer...

The other is... going to nam does not automatically a liberal make of you

Of course I forgot, the more glorious the war stories, usually mean the farther away from the ACTUAL combat lines that person happens to come from.

Combat vets tend NOT to speak of real experiences, except with real combat vets... trust me, seen combat, and I do share, but they are far easier to understand for somebody else who has been shot at. (and in my case did not shoot back... damn medic and all)

I do... and so does my hubby, but we have come to realize that those who never saw combat have a hard time so real combat vets tend to save the stories.

[jody]

9. Either Johnson or Nixon, what conclusion would you draw for either? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Johnson, for many field troops

they felt they were betrayed by the Dems who were in power... ironically once NIxon got the reins they got slightly better supplied in the field.

By the by, that is the same reason currently you have so many vets running as Dems.

[jody]

15. What is your source that under Johnson field troops were poorly supplied? n/t

[Thothmes]

26. The M-16 rifle comes to mind

The Johnston DOD rushed it into production and to the troops in Viet Nam. The weapon had severe teething problems its first few years of service in Viet Nam. I knew several combat vets from the mid to late 60s. None of them ever said anything good about the weapon. A couple of them actually believed that Mattel was the weapons manufacturer. That was the biggest complaint I have ever heard about equipment in Viet Nam.

[jody]

27. Yes, the M-16 had reliability problems but Johnson said our troops in Vietnam will want for nothing.

McNamara then begin to push supplies to Vietnam ports which were backlogged immediately.

Supplies were moved to open fields and identifying numbers quickly lost under the local rains.

It is true that shortages did exist locally and in theater for specific parts, e.g. jet engine parts, but some of those were traced back to lack of manufacturing capability in the states.

Johnson and McNamara should be blamed for lots of things mostly overall war policy but IMO supply shortages is not one of them.

[Thothmes]

29. agreed

[TahitiNut]

33. The scuttlebutt was that over half the supplies disappeared before they left the docks.

At least that was the "conventional wisdom" in the USARV HQ Company with which I served in 1969. I wouldn't be able to prove or disprove that, but the black market was sure a thriving set of enterprises.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. And historians of the period have found that the scuttlebutt was mostly

correct.

Troops had local (and serous problems) with simple things such as Bullets (familiar to the current conflict as well) as well as medical supplies... again familiar to the local conflict

What is true is that many field troops blamed the Dems and the President for many things, ranging from supplies to not letting them do their mission. In fact, many vets still blame Johnson for loosing the war since he used to select targets

Now, currently this is the situation with Iraq... ten times fold. And just like that war, vets of this war will blame the current administration for loosing the war... and worst. Supplies are short, in fact shorter than they ever were in Nam.

Oh and somebody said up thread... the M-16 is a lovely example of things rushed into production that were (and still are) a problem.

[dog_lovin_dem]

12. I live 2 houses

from a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient who was wounded in Vietnam. During the run up to the Iraq quagmire, I approached him and asked what he thought of leaving Afghanistan and going into Iraq. His response was that Saddam killed his own people, had weapons to gas us, and if we didn't fight them over there, we'd be fighting them over here. I thanked him for his opinion and left it at that. He proceeded to get my email address from a mutual friend and started sending me right-wing forwards.
Needless to say, I let him know quickly that he and I view things from opposite sides and haven't gotten anymore emails from him. I assume that he has to believe that the government is legit and wouldn't mislead us in order to live with his demons from Vietnam.
He is a wonderful person who would give anyone a helping hand at anytime and, when we cross paths, we both avoid pushing buttons. I figure he has earned the right to his views whether they are based on fact or not. He is the only person I see on a regular basis who I will not discuss politics with.

[jody]

16. I have several friends who've earned medals for heroism. IMO just because one is a true war hero in

every sense of the term, that does not make them an expert on politics in general and foreign policy in particular.

[dog_lovin_dem]

25. So I found out!

Still, having known this guy since the mid 60's, I was quite surprised by his response. But, after some thought, I came to the realization that I have no concept of his experience and I also don't know how I'd perceive the situation if I were in his shoes.
Thankfully, once I let him know that I didn't appreciate the emails, he backed off and the friendship remains intact. Other conservative friends I have had didn't "get it" and the relationships expired.

[comradebillyboy]

13. Remember Lyndon Johnson was just as tainted

by Viet Nam as Richard Nixon. When I was in I thought the war was a real bad idea but I did not identify it with a political agenda, like I do with Iraq. Viet Nam was a costly blunder, but when I was in most of us were not political at all. Just took a lot of drugs and did our duty. God, I was amazed by how much dope was available on base. The barracks all smelled of incense to cover up the pot fumes. Acid was also really popular with the troops. I did more dope in the Air Force than I did in college, and I started college in 1966. I even voted for Nixon over McGovern cuz I thought he was way too liberal, even though I hated Nixon and Agnew.

[Adsos Letter]

14. One POSSIBLE explanation for SOME of it...

Jane Fonda sitting on a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft weapon and smiling and laughing...

Some images stick...





I'm not sayiong this accounts for all of it...but she was an icon of the Left. I have a good buddy who was a combat Marine in Nam during Tet...he still can't speak her name without breaking out into advanced Tourette's syndrome.

I think many conservative vets feel that the Left was responsible for a "stab-in-the-back" regarding Vietnam.

[jody]

17. Excellent point. Joan Baez essentially apologized but Jane Fonda has not. n/t

[TahitiNut]

22. Joan Baez helped the boat people. Jane didn't lift a finger.

Jane's weak imitations of an "apology" have ALL been part of some promotional tour - self-promotion and movie promotion. After all her posturing, she didn't do SHIT for the Vietnamese refugees.

[EFerrari]

42. Yes, she has. She was on Larry King and apologized

for being young and stupid enough to manipulate in that photo op.

[TahitiNut]

21. Her despicable behavior was not only seen through a political lens.

For many of us, she was the iconic "girl back home." Barbarella barefoot in the park. When she PLAYED (ha ha) at shooting down American planes, filled with Americans ... she crossed the line. When she was protesting the war and joining her voice with others to "bring the troops home" we could support her efforts. If she'd merely given support and concern for the ordinary PEOPLE of Viet nam (North and SOuth) who'd been killed or maimed by the war, we could support her. NOBODY sane likes war and most of us saner guys adopted the "this is business, not personal" attitude, respecting the people on all sides. When she portrayed herself as a GUNNER and became the Viet Nam war's Tokyo Rose - wishing death upon American troops - that was too much.

Many of us had already finished our tours and had returned back "to the world" - only to discover wives and girlfriends who'd found someone else to warm their beds. Betrayal. We felt cheated out of the only reason many of us counted the days and tried to survive. It wasn't just the lack of ticker tape parades and the absence of "Welcome Home" banners. It was the betrayal of wives, girlfriends, and friends ... and meeting with scorn and derision.

She personified that for many of us. She became an icon for betrayal. Fuck her.

[Adsos Letter]

23. That is essentially what my buddy says, TahitiNut...

...only with a lot more cussing. What she did was treason, pure and simple...

I did not go to Vietnam; my artillery battery was sent to Germany, instead. Still, despite all of our drug use (12 grams of Afghan Black for $20 anyone?) most of our guys still were essentially conservative, equating our service on the Czech Border (3/2 ACR) with a larger conflict with the Soviet Union...and being dissed upon returning home in uniform didn't help my attitude at the time.

I've grown much older now, and see the world differently...but I admit that I still see Russia in terms of the Soviet Union, and find myself taking an interest whenever they are getting their butts kicked somewhere...

I admit to a pile of mixed emotions on these issues.

:hi:

[Thothmes]

39. Hanoi Jane

Thats what several of my acquaintances refer to her as. Even though those events occurred 40 some odd years ago. They will go to there graves believing her a traitor.

[TahitiNut]

41. Well, not quite 40 years. It was in 1972 that she went to Hanoi.

I take no issue with her anti-war activities to that point. Her trip to Paris in 1971 to meet with the NLF doesn't even bother me much.

In Vietnam, Fonda was photographed seated on an anti-aircraft battery used against American aircrews. Look ... THIS is NOT the behavior of someone who's ANTI-WAR!


This is the behavior of someone "play-acting" at killing American troops. "Anti-war"??? No fucking way.
Hypocrisy ... and self-promotion. It boggles my mind that some people can be so blindly partisan that they can't comprehend this.

Afterwards, she did absolutely NOTHING to offer support for the Vietnamese refugees. The boat-people were suffering and dying and she ignored them and went where there were more cameras. Fuck her.

[Thothmes]

44. Thanks

Time becomes distorted as the years roll on.

[WinkyDink]

18. Ask John McCain. Plus, some Vets just might not have taken kindly to the college crowd who

escaped serving, until the Lottery kicked in.
I know one person who had a doctor write a "bad teeth with braces" excuse; another, a deviated septum; another a bad back.

Plus, most probabvly haven't read or seen McNamara's mea culpa:
http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=420

[jody]

24. IMO in McNamara's mea culpa he did not accept his responsibility for the Viet debacle. n/t

[tabasco]

43. A lot of that "college crowd" is now in the Bush administration.

The Bush administration and republican party in general is chock full of draft dodgers.

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

[HereSince1628]

19. Many were already conservative and Dem hating. I remember one

Sp 5 from Romeoville Illinois. He felt only Republicans were smart enough to have the vote. He was a very obnoxious drunk, but at least he served...

[LittleClarkie]

28. Some of them think Nixon rescued them

He said he'd have them out by Christmas, and he did. That might be part of it

[BrotherBuzz]

31. Thirty years later, some of my brothers still havn't figured it out.

"Your article states...did Vietnam and Hanoi see the end of war and subjugation." I, and other veterans I know, did not go to South Vietnam to subjugate South Vietnamese people. We went there to try to help protect them from being oppressed by North Vietnam."

Ken Rought
Williamstown, New Jersey

(Forum section, National Geographic • September 2004

[Zorra]

32. Are you sure he's a real 'Nam vet, and not just another pathetic "claimer"?

There's a lot of claimers out there, some of these phonies can be very convincing.

[UTUSN]

35. Vets tend to be undereducated, poorer, more "patriotic" don't-even-vote, don't know that Dems

gave us the G.I. Bill, nothing. NOTHING.

[Zywiec]

36. Did he experience worse than John McCain?

I mean John McCain probably had it worse than anyone in Vietnam but is still conservative.

Being in a war doesn't necessarily change your political point of view.

[PsN2Wind]

37. Many VietNam vets I knew

felt that Johnson and McNamara micro-managing the war from D.C. was the reason for the loss. They remember Nixon's secret plan to end the war in VietNam but forget he didn't say his plan would take five years.
Check my sig line.

[B Calm]

38. Most of the ones I know are democrats.

[ileus]

45. it's just the way 90% of any vets are.

[Echo In Light]

46. I worked with a Navy Seal vet who was a major loose cannon. HATED liberals

Yet when he wasn't drunk he got along with anyone. He couldn't figure me out though, cause on the surface - long hair, full beard, tatts, over 6ft - I look like I could either be a musician {I am}, or an artistic type, or a mean as fuck biker. And then he'd hear me espouse very liberal ideas/views, and he'd get all fired up sometimes. Guys like that weigh EVERYTHING in terms of violent oneupmanship. In other words, he preferred to retain his militant mindset even within a sleepy, artistic community. The only ones who admired him were some of the jock crowd. He was eventually fired for providing drugs and booze to underage college students.