Got this chain letter about the pledge and I did a dumb thing

[booley]

Got this chain letter from my sister who normally knows better. (in fact she probably sent it to me hoping I would respond)

I AM NOT ASHAMED TO PASS THIS ON!! I AM PROUD TO BE ONE OF THE 86%!!! (Although the names don't show, this has been sent to thousands of people ,I hope you all agree to forward it to your friends)I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG, OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA , AND TO THE REPUBLIC, FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION UNDER GOD INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL! I was asked to send on if I agree or delete if I don't.Therefore I have a very hard time understanding why there is such a problem in having 'In God! We Trust' on our money and having 'God' in the Pledge of Allegiance. I believe it's time we stand up for what we believe! If you agree, pass this on, if not delete. I AGREE !!!! PLEASE KEEP THIS GOING, EVEN IF YOU HAVE PASSED IT ON BEFORE!!

Well, I probably should not have done this but I went and replied.. to every person in the chain. (Yeah, I'm just asking for spam)

But here's what I sent...

Hmm, a few things.

It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God.

First of all, which God, whose God and what version of God are you talking about too? And why would believing in a God require that one have it printed on money and forcing school children to say it every morning?

I believe in a God. But my faith hardly needs for the word "God" to be in a pledge or on money. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that expecting others (including my government) to have to acknowledge my beliefs on things that don't even pertain to religion as a weakness or insecurity of faith. If there is a Deity watching over us, such a being knows what's in my heart. He/She/They don't need a quarter from the US mint to figure it out.

Secondly, what about the other 14% of Americans? The beauty of the bill of rights is that we all are suppose dot be equal to our government regardless of things like religious belief. So why do you think you have to get the government to give your beliefs special consideration over theirs? Are you going to have separate but equal pledges and money? ( One nation under Allah, one nation under Gaia, one nation under the Hellenistic Pantheon, one nation under no one in particular?)

And thirdly, you do realize that the whole "under God" in the pledge wasn't put there until the mid fifties.? Certainly the socialist Francis Bellamy who wrote it didn't feel the need for the words "under God" even though he was a Christian. and despite those words not being in the pledge or on our money, we survived a revolution, Canada burning our Capital, a civil war, two world wars and a great depression. And somehow I doubt that atheists were more plentiful a century ago.

You may believe whatever you wish. It's the beauty of America and our ideals. But belief doesn't' necessarily make things true and I personally would rather concentrate on things that would benefit us all, not just .. maybe ... 86% (and probably closer to zero. If they did remove the word "God" from a secular pledge and secular money, I can't for the life of me see how this would negatively impact anyone. Not having the words is hardly the same as the government saying there is no God.)

Thanks for thinking of me in sending this. but I am afraid I cannot in good conscience or rationality accept the argument below.

Richard

“The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.”
The Doctor

Just thought I'd share and see what you all thought.

[AndyA]

1. Why do you hate America, Richard?

You heathen, you! :rofl:

I think you just ruined a few people's weekends with your reply, and good for you! :thumbsup:

[Glorfindel]

2. I can remember vividly when "under God" was added

to the pledge and how STRANGE it sounded. But we hardly ever said it anyway. I still say "one nation, indivisible..." because that's how I learned it. Besides, naughty little boys were always giggling and saying, "one naked individual." Now that good joke is ruined. I think you did exactly the right thing.
:dem:

[gratuitous]

3. Yeah, you'll get spammed

But you're probably tough enough, you can take it. Good answer.

[Hekate]

4. I did the same thing with an "Agree or Delete" spam, and two people actually wrote back to thank me!

The one I received was very similar in content, with the addition of a final paragraph telling the alleged 14% who disagree to "SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!!!!!"

I was so pissed off that I researched the history of the Pledge, and pointed out that I (and the person who sent it to me) could personally remember exactly when "under God" was added to it. The coinage, the Bill of Rights, our Founding Fathers and Framers of the Constitution -- man, I was mad.

I did not attack her personally, but I indicated my deep disappointment that someone I thought was a friend would tell me to sit down and shut up because I disagreed with her.

Every address on Linda's list got my well-researched message when I hit Send.

Then my acquaintance tried to phone me to express how offended she was ... oh, well.

I wrote an apology to all concerned for once again rising to the bait, and firmly requested that I be removed from her spam-list.

That's when people wrote back to me. A total stranger said she really appreciated what I wrote, and couldn't understand why Linda was doing this anyway. A mutual friend and his wife wrote saying pretty much the same thing.

The point is -- there are a lot more than 14% of Americans who are appalled with this kind of trash. They just don't know how to counter it, they don't want to fight with family or friends over it, they know it's wrong but they don't have the background to prove it, or they may be intimidated -- but some of them are really grateful when someone else gives voice to what they think.

You did a good thing.

Hekate

I'm having trouble getting this to send. I hope it's not posting multiple times.

[johnlal]

5. I responded to the same e-mail: Here's my reply

A fellow Catholic sent it to me, so my reply may be a little heavy on Catholicism, but here's my reply:

Being the nitpicker that I am (especially on First Amendment issues) I thought I would alert you to some inaccuracies in your recent e-mail:

YOU SAID:
10 THINGS...
DID YOU KNOW??
#1. As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S Supreme Court...
you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers... and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view ...
it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

DID YOU KNOW??
#2. As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door?

DID YOU KNOW??

#3. As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,

right above where the Supreme Court judges sit,

there is a display of the
Ten Commandments!


My Comments:
1. There certainly are biblical symbols incorporated into the design of the US Supreme Court building. However, your e-mail laments that "everything we have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional". I would point out that the Supreme Court Building wasn't built 220 years ago. Construction didn't begin until 1932.

2. In comment #1 above, you state that Moses is depicted among lawgivers. In fact, he is depicted twice.
Justice the Guardian of Liberty, is a sculpture by artist Herman MacNeil, depicts Moses as one of a trio of three Eastern law givers (Confucius, Solon, and Moses). The trio is surrounded by a variety of allegorical figures representing legal themes.

In the South Courtroom Frieze, artist Adolph Weinman depicts a procession of 18 important lawgivers: Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, Augustus, Justinian, Mohammed, Charlemagne, King John, St. Louis, Hugo Grotius, William Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon. Moses is holding blank tablets. The Moses figure is no larger or more important than any other lawgiver.

It is interesting to note that Moses and Mohammad are given equal prominence in the South Courtroom Frieze. Would the author of this chain letter be in favor of teaching about Islam in the public schools? Mohammad is depicted holding the Koran. Does this mean that passages from the Koran should be posted in Courthouses, public schools, and governors' mansions?

3. You say in #3 above that there is a display of the Ten Commandments in the courtroom. Although this is undoubtedly a depiction of the Ten Commandments, it is only two blank tablets with roman numerals on them. The full text of the ten commandments are not carved into this decoration.

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/arg8a.htm
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/courtbuilding.pdf
http://www.supremecourtus.gov/about/north&southwalls.pdf

YOU SAID:
#5 .James Madison, the fourth president, known as 'The Father of Our Constitution' made the following statement:

'We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.'?

My Comment: Here are some other things James Madison Said:
James Madison: “Every new & successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance.”
-- James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

“The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.”

"Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Government”


YOU SAID:
DID YOU KNOW??

#6. Patrick Henry,
that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:

'It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ'.?

My Comment: George Washington THE Father of our Country, in his letter to the Touro Synagogue said:
It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support."


YOU SAID
DID YOU KNOW??

#7. Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

My comment: NOT TRUE!

--For a period between 1857 and 1859, Congress suspended its practice of appointing congressional chaplains. This was due to several citizens’ complaints regarding the separation of church and state, and criticism that the appointments were political. The practice continued when it became difficult to find clergy who would voluntarily serve in this capacity.(i.e. for no money)
http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RS20427.pdf

Sounds reasonable to me--- Why SHOULD the US taxpayers pay for a preacher to pray in Congress? If our politicians are as religious as they make themselves out to be, shouldn't they already HAVE preachers of their own?

By the way, the Chaplain of the House of Representatives is The Reverend Daniel P. Coughlin, a Roman Catholic priest. He also holds the distinction of being the FIRST Catholic Chaplain of the House of Representatives in US History.

The first and only Catholic Chaplain in the Senate was Charles Constantine Pise in 1832. (Doesn't seem like us Catholic taxpayers are getting a lot for our money, does it?) The current Chaplain of the Senate is Barry C. Black, a Seventh Day Adventist. The Seventh Day Adventists have traditional seen themselves as "the remnant church", viewing the Roman Catholic Church as the Antichrist- or as Babalon. Why should our tax dollars go to this guy?

YOU SAID:
DID YOU KNOW??

#8. Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies?

MY Comment: Who were the other three, and what did THEY believe? I find this more interesting than the other statement. After all, you didn't have too much diversity among the signers of the Constitution. They were all male, all white, and all had property. So how did three non-Christians sneak in?

YOU SAID:
DID YOU KNOW??

#9. Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law and become an oligarchy?
the rule of few over many?


MY COMMENT: Here's a good Jefferson Quote:
Thomas Jefferson: "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

You mentioned 'In God We Trust' on our money.

MY Comment: Again, we haven't been doing this for 220 years.
--The words “In God We Trust” did not appear on our money until 1864, 88 years after the birth of our Nation. We survived without it until then.
--“In God We Trust” did not become the United States motto until 1956.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html


and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance in our schools....


--The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a Baptist Minister and Christian Socialist, Francis Bellamy, in 1892. Our Nation got by for 116 years before somebody decided we needed a Pledge of Allegiance. Bellamy was pressured to leave his church in Boston because of his socialist sermons. In his retirement in Florida, he stopped attending church because he disliked the racial bigotry he found there.

--The original pledge was as follows: “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

-- It was not until 1942 that Congress officially recognized the pledge of allegiance.

--It was not until 1954 that “God” was wedged between “one nation” and “indivisible”. Bellamy’s daughter said he would have objected.


AND NOW THE BIG ONE:

Why don't we just tell
the other 14% to
Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!?

To think that 14% of the population of the United States (more than 42 million people) should be expected to "Sit down and shut up" is untenable.

The 86 percent of people who "Believe in God" (according to your e-mail), include Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jehovah's Witnesses, Sikhs, and a number of other religious adherents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States There are about 38,000 different denominations of Christianity worldwide. If teachers were given the freedom to talk about religion in the Public schools, which of these would you want to teach YOUR child about religion? Or should these people also "Sit Down and Shut Up"?

[pleah]

7. Thank you, too!

[onethatcares]

11. thank you for a well thought out reply. Can I use it?

you put my thoughts into words, I have a hard time putting my thoughts to paper.

[johnlal]

18. Sure you can use it...

It's mostly lifted from other sources anyway. Maybe you can make it even better with your own thoughts. Is there anything I left out?

[WolverineDG]

12. Great response

:applause:

I'm bookmarking so I can use this the next time I get sent this email.

dg

[GTurck]

15. Good and..

very specific. Congratulations!
Yesterday I had a similar event. A good friend forwarded that canard about FDR declaring war on Germany, etc., etc., ending with praise for Bush liberating 2 countries and quashing the Taliban. As a history buff and with some first hand knowledge I wrote her the truth which I was sure she had not known. We are good enough friends that I knew she would appreciate the enlightenment. She now knows that those forwards are from anonymous people often starting something that they know the unimformed and busy/distracted citizen will not be aware of.
The clincher in my reply was to remind her that Bill Clinton was in Bosnia at the request of the Bosnians and is highly regarded there for ending the siege. How do I know this? My son was there and married a young Bosnian woman during the siege. They both have tales to tell about what living in a city that Karadzic was determined to destroy.
blogster.com/godsblog has the full story. So a bit of telling the whole truth does do wonders for making this country whole again even if it is one person at a time.

[pleah]

6. K&R Bookmarking this page. Thank you.

[Ezlivin]

8. Let them see what the Original Pledge of Allegiance used to look like

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VA0A0ymd0CM

[johnlal]

9. It should be:

One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all... and your little dog too!

[BrotherBuzz]

13. Remember, 'The Red Pony' was written by that Commie Pinko, Steinbeck

;)

[WolverineDG]

10. I usually respond with something like

wow, your belief in God must be really weak if you need constant reminders.

Maybe not nice, but I got so many at one time I got sick of playing BS deflector.

dg

[DesertRat]

14. I think your sister will take you off her forwarding list

:rofl:

[RexDart]

16. I wonder how your sister would react...

if you told her that the motto on the first coin minted by the US (1787) was "Mind your business"?

[donheld]

17. You did exactly what you should have done

I commend you very highly for it. :yourock: