Let's face facts, shall we? America Sucks

[MrScorpio]

Yep, I said it, we suck.

It isn't hard to figure this out.

It's just that too many of us are too chicken to deal with this fact.

I know that a lot of people will say, "What about Democracy? What about Freedom? What about this? What about that?"

I say that these people obviously haven't been paying attention.

In terms of the strict constructionist, America was supposed to be the safe haven for the white, land owning male... Everybody else was supposed to be an afterthought. Slaves, indigenous people, women and child labor be damned. The history of this nation should never be viewed in terms of the PEOPLE, who overcame adversity and lead the nation to peace and prosperity... That's basically a lie.

The story is one of the privileged few, forcing the disenfranchised many to do their bidding. Twenty million citizens from the great state of Wisconsin didn't sign the NAFTA treaty along with the people of Chiapas and Manitoba... These were men and women, who were the source of real power or the supporters of it. They acted and the people who were most affected by this, or any other such treaty or policy decision had very little say, if any.

The history of America is basically an example of how empires are built, and as of late, how they collapse on themselves. The motto of America should have always been, "We Shit Where We Eat". Which, of course, is never a good thing to do.

You have two histories of America, internal and external. The internal history relates how the rich and powerful few have subjugated the not as rich and powerful many. How most people are dealing with modern day slavery, i.e. the prison industrial complex, economic disenfranchisement and the support for the war machine that affects so much of our external history.

America still is ruled by the rich and powerful few and the tools that use are many. Their strategy is very simple and efficient in its prosecution: Just get the masses of people to not care that they are continually working against their own best interests. Do everything to stop them from noticing that they are shitting where they are eating.

You hear these folks, and there are a lot of them all the time. They say things like, "I'm not a terrorist, so it's ok that my phones or bugged". Or, "Unions are what's bringing down the economy." Or one of my personal faves, "The government should be run like a business." People who utter this kind of crap have successfully turned off their brains and are willing to allow their masters to maintain dominion over them.

Even, when faced with their own economic and political disadvantages, they proudly attach yellow ribbons to their vehicles and pine on about how great "we" are. Talk about reverse projection.

They are the kind of people who shit where eat and are very proud of this fact.

And of course, those captains of industry and their whores in the political arena aren't any better. These are people so blinded by their quest for greed and power, their willing to commit social and economic suicide to get ahead. Just think about every business that fought tooth and nail to change trade policy in this country that outsources manufacturing and offshores money. Look in any paper and you'll see that the major car companies are tanking from lack of sales and are tanking badly.

Did it ever occur to these people that, by moving manufacturing and support to cheaper and less regulated climes, they were undercutting the buying power of a huge chunk of folks that they depended on to buy their cars? Henry Ford may have been an anti-semitic, racist, union-busting egoist along with being a successful industrialist... But one thing he understood, the wages that he paid his employees would eventually put more money in his own pockets. So, he sold a car that he knew that his workers could afford. With his eventual acquiescence to the demands of his organized labor force, the resulting growth of the middle class working population improved living conditions tremendously.

All in all, Henry Ford was dragged kicking and screaming into the realization that it was not a good thing to shit where he ate.

How the Big Three are not realizing this obvious situation as they circle the drain is way beyond my understanding.

About a hundred years ago, during the gilded age of the robber baron, society said enough: The barons where given a choice, either strive to make life better in general for the masses of people, or continue to shit where they ate and be forced to change their ways. Most chose the latter. Thus people whose with names like Rockefeller, Mellon and Carnegie built an infrastructure for culture and learning that we still are benefiting from to this very day.

They were forced to be the exception when the rule was no longer tenable.

The result helped transform America into a country where the original ideal citizen was expanded to include just about all of us into the franchise.

Somehow, we're backing to shitting where we eat and no one has any inclination to change.

On the External Front, America never fails to shit where it eats. I'll just give you a list of people that simplifies my point. A list of dictators supported by the U.S. Government and the corporate elite.

Country Dictator Dates Statistics
Chile Gen. Augusto Pinochet 1973-1990 3000 murdered. 400,000 tortured.
Argentina Gen. Jorge Rafael Videla 1976-1981 30,000 murdered. more
Indonesia Suharto 1965 coup against left-leaning Sukarno,
1975 support of East Timor genocide
500,000 dead after 1965 coup; 100,000-230,000 dead in East Timor; more, more, more.
Guatemala Armas, Fuentes, Montt 1954-
Iran The Shah of Iran
Ayatollah Khomeini was on the CIA payroll in the 1970s in Paris
Egypt Sadat, Mubarak 1978-today
Iraq Saddam Hussein
Nicaragua Anastasio Somoza & sons 1937-1979
Paraguay Stroessner. US supported throughout (state.gov says US has supported Paraguayan development since 1942) ($142M between 1962 and 1975) 1954-1989
Bolivia Col. Hugo Banzer overthrew elected leftist president Juan Jose Torres 1970-
Angola Jonas Savimbi/UNITA (didn't actually win his revolution, but killed or displaced millions) 1975-1989
Zaire Mobutu
Saudi Arabia Saud family
Kuwait a monarchy
Morocco
Tunisia
Algeria
Jordan
Panama Noriega was US-supported for years
Haiti Papa Doc, Baby Doc
Dominican Republic Trujillo, a military dictator for 32 years with US support for most of that time; Belaguer, Trujillo's protege, installed after US Marines intervened to put down an attempt to restore the democratically elected government of Juan Bosch 1930-61, 1965-78
Honduras
El Salvador 1980s
Nepal monarchy since 1948
Cuba Fulgencio Batista pre-Castro
Brazil Gen. Branco overthrew elected president Goulart with US support 1965-67
Uzbekistan Kamirov "The Boiler", $150M from the Bush administration for an air base. 1965-67

source

With things like total war, globalized pollution, tobacco price and trade supports, the undermining to international law and a complete disregard of the basic humanity of other people on this planet, the U.S. is taking a big shit on the whole planet. Just to name a few, of course. Oh, and we brag, and force so much of our "culture" on so many people who can't even imagine to have our frame of reference at all. The concept and definition of "Anti-Americanism" and our response to it has always bothered me... I could spend all day talking about that, but I won't

I'm sure you get the point, so there's no need to extrapolate further. Is there any reason why we shouldn't realize why so many people hate our guts?

One last thing: They easy thing to do would be to blame Bush, or Reagan or the Republicans or whoever. The fact is that these things have happened and they were done in all of our names AND due to the fact that the masses did not stop whatever crimes from occuring, we all share either implicit or explicit blame. When a dropped bomb kills an innocent family, in one way or another, we all share in that event, without regard to our approval or not. We allow the bombs to be built, our taxes fund the costs and those who represent us authorize the deed.

We allow failure to stop it from occurring to be an option.

It's that ugly fact alone, which stipulates why this country sucks.

[zorahopkins]

1. Great Post

You capture so well the true nature of this country.

[BarackBucks]

2. Compared to what?

[Djinn]

5. France, Sweden, Switzerland, Iceland

New Zealand, Norway, Australia, UK, Spain, Germany etc etc

[BarackBucks]

7. Tiny countries with out much impact on the rest of the world.

Sorry, I never have bought into the "America as villan" meme. And GERMANY and SPAIN?! You gotta be kidding me! Both those countries took facisim to it's height!

[KG]

10. you can believe all the fairy tales about america you like. the truth is out there for those

willing to speak it.

[Pavulon]

14. What truth is that?

truth would be backed up with links..Not a rant.

[BarackBucks]

17. What fairy tale is that?

What are you talking about? There is no fairy tale that America is perfect. That is what you seem to be complaining about.

[Djinn]

18. so you judge a nation on what it did 50 years ago?

If you want to go down that particular path lets talk about segregation.

They might be tiny countries but they've managed to give their citizens a much better quality of life.

It doesn't really matter whether YOU buy into the "meme" of US villainy, the victimes of US exploitation and theft however DO

* Was El Mozote villainous?

* Was handing Suharto a list of Commies to kill (up to a million slauhtered) villainous?

* Was operation Phoenix villainous?

* Is rendition villainous?

* Was the murder of Lumumba and Allende villainous?

* Was the creation of the SAVAK villainous?

* Was the Gulf of Tonkin lie villainous?

* Was the bombing of Laos/Cambodia villainous?

* Was the overthrow of Mossadegh villainous?

* Was the arming of the mujihadeen villainous?

It not about "perfection" it's about DELIBERATE AND INTENTIONAL MURDER AND THEFT

[BarackBucks]

31. Just direct your feet

to the sunny side of the street.

You have an overly pessimistic view of the USA. It is more about you than it is about the USA IMHO

[Djinn]

32. yeah

how negative and miserable for people to take issue with murder

Work with South American victims of US torture like I did then come back and repeat that vile flippant garbage :puke:

[Name removed]

37. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[swoop]

68. Good post--and I agree.

What he/she said was ridiculous.

[shenmue]

216. Sure, everyone in the U.S. is the same, and we're the only country that has done something wrong.

I wasn't at the Gulf of Tonkin. I've never given shit to the Mujahedeen. I don't know about you. What you're doing is called "prejudice."

[wuushew]

23. France has a population of 64 million

n/t

[WinkyDink]

41. But what is our "impact", other than the too literal one? (E.g., we didn't invent the Magna Carta.)

[KaptBunnyPants]

67. France, the UK, Spain, and Germany are tiny countries without an impact on the world?

There's that good ole American education system at work again.

[DCKit]

88. Small? How 'bout the Netherlands or Portugal?

As stated previously, it's teh edumacation sistum.

Britain is pretty tiny too, but what the hell have they ever done?

edit to add:

Is there an award for the post that brings the most Freepers screaming out of the closet? I'm not too happy about the title either, but the entertainment value is unparalleled. This had got to be the funniest thread I've read in weeks.

[peace frog]

181. Freeps in Dem disguise

think their true identities are oh-so-cleverly camouflaged. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! :rofl:

[INDIA]

266. Yeah, god forbid a real Dem stand up and say..."America Doesn't Suck" n/t

[peace frog]

295. America right or wrong

and it's never wrong, so it's always right. Right?
Moran. :crazy:

[INDIA]

296. Ur rightz!!! Only REAL Dems can say hows Amerikka suxxx!!!

Idiot.

[peace frog]

297. Mindless asshat response as expected - check

Buh bye and thanks for all the assholery. :hi:
Sputter away to yourself, no one else is listening.
Ignore feature on.

[clarence swinney]

254. BRITAIN ever done

Read History of British Empire.

Ruled the World like good neo-cons

[warren pease]

70. Which is why I don't value living in a so-called great power...

On the whole, I'd rather be in Vancouver BC. I like Canada for a number of reasons, among them the fact that they have absolutely no ambitions of world dominance -- and couldn't pull it off even if they tried. Same for most European social democracies, and places like New Zealand and, in fact, most of the world with the probable exceptions of China, a possibly resurgent Russia and our own sweet land of liberty.

In addition to living the lie of ideals unmet, great powers require insane amounts of money to keep the war machine fed. Money that other countries use for the benefit of their citizens -- health care, taxpayer-subsidized education, superior transportation systems, housing assistance, early retirement with lifetime pensions and so on.

The thing that constantly pisses me off about the US is the arrogance, hypocrisy and "doublethink" required to see blatant evidence of US aggression against a non-threat like Iraq, hearing during the months and years after the invasion that the various excuses given for that invasion are all lies, knowing that more than 4,000 US troops -- who we profess to support with our little flags and ribbon decals -- have been killed for these lies, knowing (if they look beyond TV news) that more than a million Iraqi civilians have been killed since "shock and awe" began, women and children comprising a significant percentage of that number, knowing that the whole thing's about control of oil reserves and projecting massive US military power into the region...

Knowing all this and still refusing to accept that the US creation myth, in which the US always acts out of benign motives and never fires the first shot, has a few holes in it.

If the US was sincere about the role of government being to promote "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," it would de-fund the Pentagon, stop making billionaires out of the death merchants, and devote some of that money to programs such as those mentioned above.

But we're trapped by two ideologies that combine to diminish the lives of the citizenry: quasi-religious devotion to unregulated capitalism (except when the corporate welfare queens need a taxpayer-funded bailout, as with the S&L mess and the upcoming sub-prime mess), and the military requirements of a great power, which bleeds us all dry and provides nothing but illusory defense in return.

So you can have the great power syndrome. I'll take Vancouver, if only they'd take me. But that's another issue.


wp

[Truth2Tell]

92. warren, there you go...

burying your great posts in the comments again. :P

[warren pease]

177. Thanks, but...

... these posts serve partly as a way for me to bounce ideas off of DU's combined brain power. But mainly it gives me an opportunity to pose certain questions and try out various viewpoints on myself.

They're usually pretty half-baked when I open the "post a message" page and begin typing. And they either work their way into something useful for a column later on, or at least a journal entry, or they're euthanized on the screen before they can do any public damage. This process is not at all intimidating.

However, starting a thread is, for some reason. I feel like I've got to have the whole thesis worked out in advance, the answers to probable questions already researched, arguments to defend my positions against contrary points of view and on and on and on... I'm transported back to grad school and I feel like a scared kid again.

Plus, etiquette demands that I stick around and manage the thread, address issues or questions raised by various posters and so forth.

It just rarely seems worth it. I figure enough people read the in-thread posts and comment, or not. I know for a fact that, if I were completely full of shit about any detail or line of reasoning, the combined analytical power and razor wit of DU would quickly demolish my argument and suggest half a dozen alternatives before I could get to the "edit" function.

But really, thanks a lot for the compliment. I appreciate it.


wp

[JBoy]

147. Come on up!

But please bring Powell's Book Store, the Farmer's Market and Henry's Tavern with you. Vancouver's not quite perfect. :toast:

[warren pease]

180. I'll need to rent a few thousand draft animals....

...mostly for Powell's. And you're right; life without Powell's would be far less interesting.

Unfortunately, BC really seems to have no use for me. I'm too old to get age points, I'm not rich enough to buy my way in on the investor class ticket, I have a couple of relatively mild but chronic (read: expensive) medical issues, and I have no relatives up there who might sponsor me.

So I'm afraid it's somewhere between difficult and impossible. I almost bought a place on Galiano Island about 10 years ago, back when the dollar was an asset rather than a liability. US$200K for this beautiful, well-designed place on a half acre sitting on a bluff overlooking the water and with another thickly forested island right across the way.

However, being relatively gutless where large sums of money are concerned, I bailed -- and have been kicking myself ever since.

So I'm afraid it's going to have to be the "illegal immigrant" route -- and I just hope your xenophobes aren't as virulent and well-armed as ours are.

Meanwhile, one of these back atcha. :toast:


wp

[dorkulon]

71. Why is impact on the rest of the world so important?

I'd rather live in a country that paid more attention to the welfare of its people than meddling in the affairs of others.

[MrScorpio]

75. If you completely disregard their imperialist pasts, you can say that

But history says otherwise

[Lorien]

90. You don't get out much do you? n/t

[Chulanowa]

110. Nice rebuttal

I can live without being the keystone of an empire. I would be happy with being a little inoffensive backwater country, so long as it WORKED. Is it hard to grasp?

And yes, Germany and Spain were supremely Fascist. Were. Not are.

[RadiationTherapy]

126. Making impacts on the world has always irritated me about Am. History.

MUST we be the "#1 military and economic superpower in the world"? It is fucking exhausting, you know that? Burning so many hours of work maintaining this global status is making most of us miserable and curious about what free time truly is.

[Mike Daniels]

138. not to mention that France has a history of imperialism as well

and the French Revolution was a fucking indiscriminate bloodbath compared to our attempts to shake off imperial control.

[Wednesdays]

226. Where is that French empire now? Or the Reign of Terror?

It looks like they've learned something over the course of time.

[INDIA]

274. One could argue collaborating with the Nazi regime...

is worse than anything the United States has ever done. I'm not going to make that argument, but others could. Not to mention France's less than stellar colonial history in North Africa.

My point is: You can pull out the low points of ANY country's history and say they "suck." But in doing so, you become an ignorant douchebag.

:hi:

[RaleighNCDUer]

288. But we could, then, amend it to

"America currently sucks".

Somehow it lacks that certain cachet.

[RaleighNCDUer]

143. No, fascists took those countries to their depths.

Which is what the fascists here have been working on for the past 30 years.

Germany and Spain are both far more dependent upon ME oil than we are - did they go to war over it? They've learned the horrors of fascism first-hand.

We are still being learned.

[baby_mouse]

151. Funded by people in the States. NT

[baby_mouse]

154. Erm...no.

That idea is....

FALSE.

[FREEWILL56]

168. And we aren't? You better relook.

[ManWroteTheBible]

201. And the Republicans...

learned from the best! The bottom line is, those countries are better places to live than AmeriKKKa at this point in time. You're one of those "mommy is always right and can do no wrong" kinda people, huh? And as posted by others, France, Germany, Spain, & UK were imperialist like our "leaders" are.

[razors edge]

235. "Both those countries took facisim to it's height!"

We have had fascism as standard operating policy for more than 95 years, and only when an upstart like Germany, Japan, or Italy tried to nudge into the fray, do we send our children to their deaths to ensure the monopoly of that ideology.

Give me a break, look around and smell the rotting corps left in our wake.

[adigal]

270. WWII - One of the only times we have been noble

The rest of our history is generally been about killing those weaker than we are and taking their stuff.

And don't get me started about our country vs. Europe in regard to health care and education. WE are continually voting against our own self-interest. I just told a co-worker that, whose husband has been unemployed for 2 years, and she said, "But I oppose abortion!" Duh. The REpublicans will NEVER do anything about abortion because they use it to fool people like her.

[FormerDittoHead]

282. ..Maybe that's it. Maybe we should think about making less "impact" on the rest of the world... n/t

[Dark]

285. Not to mention they all had empires of their own.

[INDIA]

50. Our history sucks compared to Germany??

And a Spanish government that carried out mass murder on its own citizens within the last 60 years? Not to mention the horrible colonial records of Britain, Spain, and yes, even France.

The United States is a superpower. As far as superpowers go, we're pretty much the good guys.

Trying to compare the US to Norway and New Zealand is just silly...



To end my rant, EVERY country with significant size and power is going to do bad things along the way, especially when fighting a cold war requires one support the lesser of two evils. Compare the US to the Soviets, China, the British Empire. Singling out the US and saying we suck is just stupid.

This "America Sucks" tripe is getting really old, and posting it on a Democratic message board is embarassing. This only gives fuel to the Rush Limpballs of the world to paint our future candidate as an anti-american commie, while holding up their own candidate as a feel good flag waver.

[Truth2Tell]

93. It's getting old?

I'd bet it's starting to get old to the victims as well. But let's not talk about the way we victimize others. Oh dear no! It's sooo embarrassing!

[sinkingfeeling]

129. Yeah, a superpower going bankrupt! We'll see the USA disintegrate just like the USSR within the next...

50 years.

[RaleighNCDUer]

145. 50 years?

Oh, you Pollyanna optimist.

[Pavulon]

232. We dissolved the USSR.

East germans and poland for example like that outcome..

[baby_mouse]

245. er... no you didnt...

The... er... people of the USSR dissolved the USSR...

[clarence swinney]

256. GORBY DISSOLVED THE SOVIET EMPIRE

NOt USA

Perestroika and Glasnost

Reagan made them spend on military!

During his first term military spending did not increase. None. During second term it was reduced by Gorby.

Major Study by Historians in Russia listed in detail why the decline of Soviet.
Reagan not mentioned.

[baby_mouse]

153. "EVERY country with significant size and power is going to do bad things along the way"

Yes. And that means they suck.

[INDIA]

260. Hey Baby Mouse, you're from Scotland?

Part of the U.K. yes? Your country sucks. Scotland sucks. Your horrible colonial history raped and pillaged the world. Your ridiculous war with Argentina over some small islands was unnecessary and killed many innocent people. YOUR "sucky" country is the reason the Middle East is so screwed up in the first place, with your mishandling of Iraq and Israel/Palestine. All the violence in the Middle East today is YOUR COUNTRY'S FAULT. Your country SUCKS.

Feels good doesn't it? You're not feeling the need to get a little defensive are you?

I won't take the time to focus on the wonderful things about the Britain, I'm just going to focus on the few low points in your country's history and paint the ignorant broad brush assertion that your country "sucks."

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

264. Unlike you, I don't think Baby Mouse

has any problems acknowledging his/her nation's shortcomings.

[INDIA]

267. Why don't you let him/her answer then?

And I can certainly acknowledge America's shortcomings. But I'm not so much of moron to ignorantly paint an overall good country as one that "sucks."

Seriously, give me just about ANY country with a decent sized population, and I will tell you, in the most ignorant and biased way possible, how much they SUCK. It's fun, and it makes you feel really good about yourself too! Seriesly!

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

269. I don't think the "your country sucks too" argument applies here.

Most foreigners have NO problem acknowledging their nation's faults. On the other hand, Americans tend to take all criticisms personally and choose to remain blind to obvious faults and the unsavory aspects of their nation's history.

[INDIA]

271. "Most foreigners have NO problem acknowledging their nation's faults."

That is just dead ass wrong. DEAD WRONG. I'm sorry, but after reading that, our conversation must end. You're not worth my time if you're THAT clueless. Read up on what's going on in Japan right now. They're basically trying to pretend the atrocities they carried out during WWII never happened. China's pretty pissed off about it, although China's trying to forget about the tens of millions that died during their cultural revolution. Thinking that this is some kind of uniquely American phemomenon is just ridiculous.

On edit: Here's another poster on this thread giving his take on why you're wrong.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2760573&mesg_id=2761547


The French don't want to acknowledge their collaboration with the Nazis. The Swiss try to downplay their holdings of stolen Nazi gold. Germany, while being pretty mature and realistic about the horrors of the Nazi regime, have gone to the lengts of BANNING Nazi flags and related groups in order to distance themselves as far as possible from their past. The Russians? Enough said. And when you get to the Middle East it just gets silly.

The one common unifier among the countries of the world? BLAME AMERICA! It makes you feel better. And if that doesn't work, blame the Joooos, or Britain.

And just for the record, I would never be so rude and ignorant to say any of the above countries "suck."

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

276. Do you always act like a petulant child when called on your bullshit?

Good fuckin' riddance!

[RaleighNCDUer]

290. Reading comprehension problems? nt

[INDIA]

278. Heloooooo......?????

Baby Mouse, I was curious what your reaction would be to me saying "Scotland sucks." So far you've stayed silent, what gives? Agree/disagree? Scotland sucks/doesn't suck? ALL countries suck? No countries suck except Amerikkka?

Throw me a bone!

[Pawel K]

193. What are you basing this opinion on? Have you ever lived in those countries?

[devilgrrl]

224. Hey there! How does that granite cookie taste?

:hi:

[Mythsaje]

3. Hey, I blame you too.

Me, not so much.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. The ultimate reason for the suckage, I think,

is that we have never been able to acknowledge any area in which we suck at all. We've always done the We're Number One crap, and while blindly assuming we're number one we have allowed the suckage to accumulate and fester.

[KG]

6. this country certainly falls way short of its potential, and is nothing like the fairy tale we tell

ourselves and the rest of the world.

[BarackBucks]

8. Many more people want to come here though

That is undeniable

[KG]

9. which means what?

[BarackBucks]

21. Uhhhh,...it means more people want to come here than other places.

So that would strongly suggest that those people disagree with the OPs point.

[conscious evolution]

77. They come here to escape

the atrocity's we are committing upon them in their home country's.

[Vilis Veritas]

190. LOL

That is funny and an incorrect SWEEPING generality.

[conscious evolution]

207. So people from

Central and South America are coming here because their home countries are paradise?
I know the ones I interact with came here because of the actions of United Fruit,Phelps-Dodge,Coca Cola and other large American corporations have made it impossible for them to make a living in their home countries.
And when they do try to stand up for their rights,we send death squads trained by us at the School of the Americas to murder and terrorize them.
The same can also be said for a a large percentage of immigrants from Africa.Ever here the phrase blood diamonds?Did you know there are large mineral and oil deposits in Africa?The majority of conflicts there are being fought over control of these resources and once again US and other foriegn interest are behind the conflicts.
Even in the mid seventies many of the Vietnamese refugees coming here were fleeing from retribution for being collaborators with the US in the war over there.
By the way,in case you did not know this,the Vietnam war was fought not to protect them from communism but to protect the rubber plantations of French and American tire companies.
While it is true that Ho Chi Min was a communist the average Vietnamese was not.They were just rallying behind the group that was trying to drive the US and other foreign countries and business interests that were exploiting their natural resource out of their country.
Sort of like what is happening in Iraq today.The Iraqis are rallying behind their religous leaders because they are the ones standing up to our theft of their resources.
You really should educate yourself about what is really happening in the world.The Us is not that mythological shining beacon you have been brainwashed into believing.We may have been at one time but those days are long past.

[Vilis Veritas]

268. I was laughing at your sweeping generality.

I was not alluding to the fact that your statement was wrong, just incorrect in its DEPTH. If you want to put words in my mouth, I can not debate you.

There are other ways to make your point without assumptive analysis of my level of education.

Peace.

[conscious evolution]

281. My aplogies

But the fact is most Americans are woefully ignorant of the atrocities committed by our goverment.It is not a matter of intelligence but a lack of knowledge of what is really going on in the world.
I am reminded of when George the first told a reporter something along the lines of "if the Average American knew what we are doing they would be chasing us with torches and pitchforks"

[Vilis Veritas]

299. It's cool...I understand the vigor of your argument.

The rule of the global Corporate elite has kept me awake for more years than I fear I have left...

Peckerhead the 2nd has been quoted as saying, "Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction."

Freedom is an illusion of those truly enslaved.

Peace.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

99. Note that few Western Europeans want to emigrate here

They used to, just after World War II, when their countries were in ruins, but no longer. If you run into a Western European immigrant here in the U.S., it's likely that s/he is married to an American or came here because of a specific job offer, and s/he may be longing for the time when s/he can move back.

No, these days the majority of immigrants come not from the REALLY unpleasant parts of the world. In the Twin Cities, that means Mexico and Central America, the refugee camps of Southeast Asia, and the refugee camps of East Africa. In Portland, it's Southeast Asians, Russians, Rumanians, and Koreans. I doubt you'll find any major U.S. city where Western European immigrants are more than a blip on the population charts.

[Thothmes]

124. All that means is that the post war efforts

(mainly U.S. dollars)to fix things in Europe were successful. Why should they want to? Their economies are solid, they have a well developed social safety net. There has been no war in western Europe since 1945. Also notice not to many Japanese immigrate to the U.S. either.People there are generally well educated, financially secure, well fed and pretty satisfied with their circumstances. These are the type of people that seldom immigrated to the U.S. Give us your poor, tired, hungry, not your well off, well fed and well rested. People come to this country for a chance to make things better for themselves. Changes in immigration policies over the years since the war have made it easier for those people from the non european world to come to the U.S.

[baby_mouse]

158. ....you don't know as much about Europe as you think you do. NT

[Cleita]

200. I met many young Europeans in Southern California who

were backpacking around the world. Some overstayed their visas because they liked the warmer climate and maybe worked here illegally and maybe even married an American on occasion. Most though worked enough to pay for the next leg of their adventure to eventually return to their homes to get a job, get married and raise a family. Many of the Scandanavians were horrified at how we treated our homeless and poor. They would tell me that no one would be forced to die in the street without adequate medical care in shelter in their country.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

209. Yes, that's another thing, travel

One of my former colleagues and his wife decided to spend six months backpacking around the world before they had kids. When they came back, they reported that they had met countless numbers of Europeans, Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, and Israelis in their travels, but very few Americans.

As I look at international travel boards, I see that students in those countries often take what they call a "gap year" between secondary school and university or between university and settling into a career. They are helped by a program called the Working Holiday Visa, in which people under a certain age (usually 30) whose country participates in the program --participants include Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the UK, France, Japan, Korea, and probably some others I don't know about-- can get a special visa to work for 6-12 months in any of the other countries. A lot of the young people teaching English in Japan and Korea are there on Working Holiday Visas.

But does the U.S. participate in this wonderful program? Nooooo.

Do young Americans routinely backpack around the world? Noooo, because they have tens of thousands of dollars of student loans to pay off. Even if they do have the money, they often aren't interested. A recurring battle as a language instructor was persuading students to participate in a study abroad program. They'd tell me that if studying abroad caused them to delay their graduation, they'd lose so many months of lifetime income. :banghead: Even if you're already affluent, making money is more important than learning about the world firsthand.

[RaleighNCDUer]

146. You're sure about that, are you?

Nevermind the millions of economic refugees flooding into Europe from Africa and West Asia. Nevermind
that Australia has its own problems with illegal immigrants.

Most people that come here are not looking for American democracy - they are looking for FOOD. The quickest way to turn around the 'immigration problem' is for the droughts to continue, turning us into a 30's dustbowl with food and water shortages. Then you'll see Americans crossing borders in the other direction.

they don't come here saying "I want to be an American". The are saying "I want a job, housing, and respect".

[baby_mouse]

156. Why?

[ManWroteTheBible]

Ok...

compared to say... Darfur... or Indonesia... sure, life here is champagne and roses. Compared to Canada, UK, New Zealand... we suck. Their citizens enjoy a much better quality of life than we do. Deal with truth, not the falsely perceived greatness of the US.

[gollygee]

275. It means that where they live sucks even more than here

is that our goal? To be not as bad as some other sucky place?

[MrScorpio]

11. I'll make this very simple for you

By completely disregarding impact of the negativity of what you allow in your name, you add to the problem.

You can mitigate this all you want.

All you're doing is cheerleeding for the grave that we're digging for ourselves.

[BarackBucks]

19. I have no idea what point you are trying to make

What are you talking about?

[MrScorpio]

24. Whether you know this or not..

You've just proven my point

[BarackBucks]

27. Right...okay Einstein

I know better than to argue with a God

[Djinn]

25. meaningless

If I prefer to live in the nation that is advantaged by shitty "free market" trade deals rather than the one that is exploited by it is hardly a glowing reference for the US.

Millions of Afghans live in Pakistan, not because Pakistan is a safe, developed and moral nation but because it's safer than Afghanistan.

If you actually look at migration preferences from the developing world you actually find that several nations in Europe beat the US. So this myth of the US as the beacon for migrants isn't even true let alone based on the assumptions you make.

Not to mention that you take in fewer migrants per head of population than almost any nation on earth.

[BarackBucks]

30. Fewer migrants per head?

Whta kind of a whacky stat is that? LOL!

More people want to come here than to whereever the heck you are.

[Djinn]

36. wrong

Take a look at migration application figures per nation, also look at refugee requests per nation and discover that you are absolutely wrong.

It a myth that the US likes to propagate about itself but it simply not true.

More people apply to several European nations each year than apply to the US

Then again, who needs facts when a "America roolz" post works just as well :eyes:

[BarackBucks]

39. So America has LESS immigrants here and coming here than other countries? Prove it.

LOL!

I don't believe you.

[Djinn]

44. I didn't say that eedjit

learn to read - try again - then check out UNHCR for a start.

As for whether you believe me - like a give a shit, if you were remotely involved in migration/refugee issues then maybe your ignorance would be an issue, you can beleive whatever you choose - ignorance is absolutely your birthright

[BarackBucks]

45. You have nothing to say

That HAS been proven

[Djinn]

46. yes I've posted

verifiable facts and you respond with

"I don't believe you LOL"

I guess you stump me on the "something to say" ledger :eyes:

[BarackBucks]

53. You've posted rank speculation, nothing more

[Truth2Tell]

97. They want to come here because this is the

Imperial Capital. In Roman times immigrants wanted to go to Rome and make their fortunes. In the heydays of the British Empire, moving to London and making one's way was the epitome of the big time. This is where the money is. This is where all the resources we pillage from the rest of the world end up. Of course this is where our Imperial subjects want to come!

None of this means that we don't run our Empire with merciless violence and duplicitous lies. We do. We kill and rape and burn children alive to keep ourselves at the top of the heap - a desperate and futile fifty year effort to maintain our status as the Grand Rulers of All Men.

Our days of reckoning are coming. 9-11 was preview, not even the first act of the decline. Our arrogance and ignorance are likely too vast to overcome. If we don't wake up we are doomed.

[BarackBucks]

101. Yes, yes it's all America's fault

I understand now

[baby_mouse]

246. .

.

[Vilis Veritas]

192. Nicely put. Great post.

Only edit would be...'We' are awake...'They' are not and that is why we will be doomed once the pendulum swings...

Peace.

[Truth2Tell]

196. By "we" I mean the imperial "we".

Pun intended. :)

[Vilis Veritas]

198. I must have put my literalist cap on this morning...

I should have known that...silly.

;-)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. Even when I was in Europe in 1967, we met several people who

wanted to emigrate from what was then a very poor British economy, and they all wanted to go to Canada or Australia. They thought the U.S. was too violent. They were misinformed, since some parts are violent and others aren't, but that was our reputation forty years ago.

[14thColony]

186. uh oh

uhhh...'per head' is a direct translation of the Latin "per capita," which is a very very common way of stating population statistics...I fear you've shown up to a gun fight armed with a pen knife hoss. Duck.

[Lorien]

89. Have you ever been to Paris? London? Geneva? Toronto?

Those places have as many of more immigrants than NYC. In that regard we are far from special.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. London definitely does--I've never seen such a multi-ethnic city

and I lived near New York for nine years.

I was there in August 2006, and I heard every imaginable language and accent on the street. Indians, Pakistanis, Arabs, Chinese, West Indians, and Africans were highly visible minorities, and the restaurant and hotel help was all Eastern European.

London was so international that when I was relaxing at the coffee bar of the British Museum, I struck up a conversation with an American woman who was a seven-year resident of London, and I asked her, "Are there any English people in London?" She just laughed and said that she thought they were all at their vacation homes in Spain.

Toronto is another extremely diverse city, but I haven't been there since 1984.

Even Japan attracts mostly illegal immigrants from poorer Asian countries, although there are some legal residents as well.

[INDIA]

262. Actually Lorien, an American city DOES have the distinction of being...

the city with the highest percentage of foreign born immigrants in the world. It's Miami. So I guess WE ARE SPECIAL!!!!!!:hi:

[RaleighNCDUer]

291. Highest percentage? Maybe.

But I'd betch there are more 'immigrants' (called refugees) in real numbers in Damascus from Iraq. And the same in Lahore, from Afghanistan. And in Cairo, from the Sudan.

[INDIA]

298. No. You're wrong on all 3 counts.

But feel free to back up your assertion with links. I "betch" you 5 dollars you're wrong.

And if you want to go "real numbers" of foreign born immigrants, the United States would far and away have more than any Middle Eastern or European country.

[Broadslidin]

229. Yes, as we the Imperialists ravage Mexican Family Farms with our Heavily Subsidized Corn.

With the Imperial US government's most recent
$300 Billion dollar farm subsidy.
(Written by A.D.M., Cargill)

[Geek_Girl]

230. I know many immigrants I've worked with send their money back home

most Indian workers I work with are here for the work and the work only. They go back to India every chance they get and will eventually go back home when they've accumulated enough wealth and experience.

Many Mexican workers are pretty much the same way they work here for a few months then go back home, then come back for a short while.

They come here for the work and only the work these days.

[lumberjack_jeff]

185. I think that there's some distance between...

"Suck" and "falling short of its potential."

Belarus sucks. Poland sucks. Turkmenistan sucks. Indonesia sucks. Liberia sucks. Mexico sucks. Uganda sucks. North Korea sucks.

The US falls far short of its potential.

[Pavulon]

12. Change

for all the problems we have, we have the ability to change. We are a massive super-power. Rome if you will. Our economy, even with problems has a 95% employment rate and is generates 14,000 billion dollars a year. No one tells you what you have to do. Want to quit your job and write a novel, you can.

We advance medicine, science, and people. People want to move here. Because they can enrich themselves. We dont care about your family, we reward innovation.

I like it here. Is it perfect, no way. But a visit to other places where what we take for granted is not there quickly underscores the good in what we have.

We do have the ability to change what we do not like.

[Truth2Tell]

98. Rome if you will ??

Yep - how'd that work out for Rome?

[onenote]

13. and yet so many people want to come here. Care to explain?

This nation isn't perfect, never was. But people with next to nothing try to come here, while people with far more resources than those people don't leave here in appreciable numbers for anywhere else.

[MrScorpio]

22. It's something that we never talk about in this country

How what we do externally affects, either the economy or politics of the countries that are the source of these population shifts

What we fail to do is differentiate past migrations to America vs. the most current ones

It's a completely different situation. I know that you didn't point this out, but it had to said.

Without exception the migration has occurred because our policies in trade, defense or finance makes it very difficult for the masses of these migrants to make a living.

This shift is occurring all throughout the Third world to the First, we are by no means, the sole example.

The privileged people already here have created safe havens within this country, which are inaccessible to most.

Edwards even talked about this when he mentions "Two Americas".

[RainDog]

48. yes, I'll explain

My basis of comparison is the ideals upon which this nation was founded. Those ideals were tarnished from the start by compromises with racist mf-ers who, looking back, should never have been appeased... but.. same old story... people needed the votes.

However, our nation is the only western one that was founded on the idea that humans can govern themselves with fairness and dignity. Native Americans, who we massacred in great numbers, also had this system and the great treaty of peace was extremely influential to Franklin, etc. (you can google this for quotes from Franklin, Paine. -some speculate they were not given any credit because women were enfranchised in the Iroquois nation.)

Locke was important. He emphasized the value of individual rights, privacy of belief and thought (both to have or to reject) Then, most importantly of all, the Enlightenment philosophes created the ground work for democracy by showing the lie of the divine right of kings and clergy. The founders' idea of govt was secular, human, led by reason... an evolving form of govt that should have naturally evolved into a social democracy like France, Germany, Belgium, the netherlands, the Scandinavian countries... Germany created some hell on earth last century, but they now have a govt. that has outlawed Nazism. America, on the other hand, held slaves for decades and decades and STILL South Carolina fights for the right to display the fucking confederate flag.

so why does America tolerate a slavery mentality? a might makes right mentality? why doesn't america live up to its purpose and meaning by also decapitating the divine right of capital? why have we spent the last five or so decades killing democratically elected leaders, overthrowing their govts, installing puppet right wing dictators who are the antithesis of this nation's founding philosophy? the war on communism, sadly, was hugely distorted by the Nazis who came to america after the war, esp. Gehlen. we have people in office now making the same sorts of claims he did to start the cold war.

Yes, of course other nations have major faults. Yes, others come here if their nation is ruled by totalitarians (some of whom we put into place.) We are the biggest consumers of natural and man made resources... to the detriment of the entire world. why wouldn't we sign the Kyoto treaty? what makes the U.S. citizens and pols think that they are so special they should get to trash the planet and still expect everyone to love them?

I think Scorpio made those comments about other nations because lots of western European countries recognize health care as a basic human right, and a base level standard of living that does not humiliate and debase the people of their nations.

why are we the only western democracy who can have candidates and even a prez who do not support the scientifically verifiable truth of the theory of evolution, and instead allow idiots who are so scared of reality they cannot admit that the book they revere is not a literal history of the world? that's cult thinking, not democracy in action. not that we're the only place with fundamentalists. I cannot think of any country or any episode in history in which fundamentalists have created anything good for the people of its nation.

Washington said we have no favorites among nations, yet we refuse to force Israel to negotiate a settlement that is doable for both sides. Eighteen/19? hijackers came from a country with a horrible totalitarian system, yet it's the country our prez cuddles up to and colludes with. Our past was prefaced on the idea that we would not be war mongers and war pirates. Boy, we sure have failed in that regard.. and too many Americans didn't care for too long.

We are now a nation that TORTURES CHILDREN, RAPES WOMEN and kills INNOCENT MEN who were turned in for some retribution or another, and we do not allow the mechanisms for them to prove their innocence. No, not all prisoners are unconnected to OBL, but Bush and a willing Congress continue to let this nation torture innocent people. And the American people don't give a shit. Enough of them don't give a shit to demand justice. To demand decency.

But what does it matter because we're a rich nation. We get to drive SUVs to the off-road grocery store of the mind.

You know, when it's your own family that is acting like assholes and embarrassing you in front of the world, you are hard on them because their behavior, rightly or wrongly, is associated with yours. If it's someone else's family, we can watch and disapprove, and even call for justice. But it's not the same thing. So Americans that create America are what's shameful.

willful ignorance. greed. hatred, superstitious bullshit that is allowed to infect public debate.

some of us in this country would like to resume the task of living up to the ideals that created this country. obviously we have never been perfect, but we have seen progress... all the while fighting against those here who want to discard the very things that gave us a reason to be. Don't we have a right, or even an obligation to oppose those people and those actions? If we didn't love and believe in this nation, we wouldn't be so pissed off in the first place. so before you question why someone says negative things about this nation, ask yourself why you can dismiss the things noted above because it is more politic to wave the flag and pretend nothing is wrong.

[countryjake]

174. How strange that your gem of a response is ignored.

Very well stated!

[lumberjack_jeff]

187. Excellent post. I think it goes beyond racism.

Classism goes hand in hand. To wit: The United States is the land of opportunity, everyone can be like Horatio Alger. No one who "succeeds" in our society got there for any other reason than merit. Therefore, everyone who fails has only their own moral failings to blame. They're not my brothers and sisters, they are interlopers - parasites on the world I've built.

[RainDog]

237. thank you to you and country jake

actually, I was so aggravated when I typed that post that I didn't even finish some sentences/thoughts. I'm glad you found something worthwhile anyway.

edited for yet another typo...

[Joe Fields]

221. One of the most cogent replies in the entire thread. Thank you.

You, and people like you, who give such impassioned and well reasoned responses are why I tune in to this place every day.

Here's to you!

:toast:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

104. See my post #115

and think about it.

[sinkingfeeling]

132. There are 10's of thousands of US citizens, with wealth, leaving the USA each year. Hopefully, I'll

be joining them in 2010.

[onenote]

148. and even more moving here to take their place

in 2006, 11,000 Americans moved to Canada. And 24,000 Canadians moved to the US. The pattern repeats itself with respect to any number of countries.

[baby_mouse]

244. Because it's easy to make money. NT

[Bosso 63]

15. Panicked Sheep

“In a nation ruled by swine, all pigs are upwardly mobile—and the rest of us are fucked until we can put our acts together: not necessarily to win, but mainly to keep from losing completely. We owe that to ourselves and our crippled self-image as something better than a nation of panicked sheep.”
—The Great Shark Hunt, 1979

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrScorpio]

26. So the choice is to either disregard the situation or egress?

Yet the problem still exists.

Someone else mentioned that we have the power to change.

I'd rather take that option.

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

34. You posted information that went back 70 years or so-- there is apparently

not much good about this country according to you so ,yes,the best thing would be to find a place that makes you feel more comfortable.

Life is too short.

[MrScorpio]

40. Past is prologue, yes

But, we have made changes for the better in relative short period of time.

But this happened when enough people recognized a problem and strove to change it.

[RainDog]

162. Why don't you criticize the right wingers who say America sucks?

why don't you go over to free republic or talibornagains.dom. and tell them to leave if they complain.

if you think right wingers are all about love of this country you are full of shit.

they say we are now immoral, as tho at some point we were something other than what we have always been. They criticize the basis of our govt... secular democracy. no religion favored over another. no religious test for public office.

they divide the nation into liberals and their moral selves. (which, if you look at some recent behavior, esp. is pretty funny. do you have to be a pedophile or a self-hating gay person to be a republican? Maybe that's why they claim some special priviledge for themselves and punish gays. maybe they are closeted gays who cannot accept that others who are not them are also human. THEY have spouted more hate speech about liberals. gay, women, quakers... on and on... over the last thirty years than you will ever see here. and done it in the churches.

The right wing thinks that war is a sign of patriotism. how stupid is that. Too many right wingers seem to have no grasp of effective foreign policy.

as for a troll buckwhatever - you write that criticism of one's family, which was a metphor I used, is somehow a bad thing? Did you grow up in a dysfuntional home? sounds like it. ignore the elephant in the living room. don't tell what daddy did. pretend we're happy and better than our neighbors.

maybe if liberals were actually represented in numbers equal to their numbers, you wouldn't hear quite so much criticism... because the govt. would actually represent the beliefs of the MAJORITY of americans in this country. but, of course, you don't want that because that's too much democracy. too much equality of opinion.

[BarackBucks]

54. Obviously it would never be good enough for you

Do you complain about your family to because it hasn't lived up to what you think it's "potential" is?

[WinkyDink]

42. I haven't heard that one since 1968.

[RainDog]

51. fed up, you have some nerve

telling someone to emigrate because they expect their country to be a better nation. your remark is a typical right winger insult. a dodge to avoid talking about some nasty realities.


gee, since my family has been here longer than yours (unless yours migrated from Canada in the early 1700s), why can't I tell you to get the fuck out of my country? maybe because that would be arrogant as hell and also a total misunderstanding to democracy.

[Deja Q]

58. Even right wingers come up with more interesting bits of fluffy dialogue.

F_U_Grammy be bitter and senile, methinks...

[masonfl]

20. What a pointless post - you must be a sad person

In some respects you're right...life sucks and then you die. But most of us try to think a bit more positively about life. I believe we should all criticize the powers that be when they deserve criticism but making the rather boring and unhelpful statement that "America sucks" is...just dumb. If you somehow think that you're going to make America suck less by talking about how much it sucks...well...you're deluding yourself. How about trying to be constructive? How about suggesting positive changes that citizens can make?

I'm not a religious man but I think all of us are flawed in some way. Does that mean we all "suck?" I think not. America has many flaws...some glaring...some ALMOST unforgiveable...but that's because America is made up of millions of people who themselves have flaws. Nobody and no country is perfect. If you think Switzerland or Norway or some other little principality somehow doesn't suck in their own special ways you haven't gotten out enough.

Now, back to a more positive and interesting dialog that sometimes happens on this sucky Web site. ;)

[MrScorpio]

28. Think of this as being in the terms of 12 steps, where the first step is to admit.

That we have a problem

This point has been stipulated by you.

One of the things the we do on this "Sucky website" is to discuss these problems.

So I ask, what do you suggest?

[WinkyDink]

43. How many countries ever dropped atomic weapons on another nation? Oh, that's right---ONE.

And FYI, Mr. Scorpio rocks.

[INDIA]

57. Without the US, the Soviet Union, Imperial Japan, and Nazi Germany

might very well still be in existence. Not to mention modern functioning democracies like South Korea owe their very existence to us.

The United States has done more good than harm, both for it's citizens and citizens around the world. You choose to focus on the harm. Any superpower will inevitably cause harm, either by accident or intentionally. You already have a preconceived opinion on the matter and carefully select facts to support your argument without taking an objective look at things...

Don't agree with me? Well I can guarantee the man/woman we will both vote for in November does.

[Deja Q]

61. An eloquent response.

But I hope if you can forgive me for not voting female just for the sake she's unique in having an innie instead of an outie.

I look at the candidates' goals, histories, and if I care enough to look at discrepancies or oversights. Not everything called a "flip-flop" is done so out of convenience; though in some cases it's all too obvious it's done for convenience.

I will not vote solely on the basis of their genders or skin colors.

And yes, the United States has done more good. I too find it... disconcerting when people in other countries laugh and boast while saying they are looking forward to "America's comeuppance". Not a nice way to help a benefactor. Criticism is one thing. Such outlandish attacks are another. But then, I was rabidly childish once, myself... still shaking some of the adolescent anomalies within, but I do observe and see the benefits - as well as drawbacks - to any number of issues. Right now, the ultimate good outweigh any bad. But the American psyche is in a depression (mental health, not financial status and Fort Knox alone would pay back the debt and have plenty left over anyway) because of some of what is going on. And, down the road, that's going to be VERY bad.

[ChazII]

78. Thank you for posting this

India3 and HypnoToad.

edited for typos.

[Truth2Tell]

102. I respectfully disagree.

Yes, you are likely right that all the major Presidential candidates and most Americans agree with your assertion that America has done more good than bad - but that doesn't make you right. It just means the delusion is widespread and very ingrained.

Let's get past WWII and talk about the last fifty years, cuz thats when we really took on the powers of Empire. Have we used our powers for the good of humanity? Mostly no. We've used them to press our own ideology of unfettered capitalism (not to be confused with democracy, which we have decidedly not championed), and - even more than that - we've used them to line our proverbial pockets.

So, which nation, or part of the world, do you believe has benefited from our involvement more than suffered in the last fifty post-war years? You strangely mentioned democracy in South Korea. But we didn't plant democracy in South Korea - we supported a right-wing undemocratic (but western corporate friendly) regime in South Korea before, during and after the Korean war. And we supported that regime in its violent suppression of the Koren democracy movement in the 80s until it collapsed.

Please name another place you think we have done more good than harm. You choose. Let's address the delusions one piece at a time, shall we.

[Greyhound]

265. What? No reply? I'm shocked... n/t

[Diclotican]

111. HypnoToad

HypnoToad

Have yo arrest you on one thing. Many country, like my own little country have a lot of gold for care-ceeping in Fort Nox. And I doubt that the government of our little nation want USA to "take" our gold, to pay of the big DEBT that United States of America have today..

On the other side, US are not that bad as some want US to be, but it can be that much better then it is today.. I for one miss the "old USA" who was treating the rest of the world with some respect. I for one miss the Old US, who acted together with their allied, to try their best to make the world a better place to be for everyone...

Even that US since 1945 have been doing a lot of bad thing, that is not a Democracy worth US are still our friend, and allied.. But the last 8 year, have been more damaging to our friendship with US than the last 60 year with up and downs.. I just hope that in time US can come forward as a friend again, and act accordingly to the friendship US once made with Europe both before and after WW2..

But, if american in US believe that the world would not have lasted if US was not there I am afraid you are wrong. The world have survived many centuries before the 13 colonies in America was pondering to revolt against their british lords, and made a new country in North-america.. And would exist and prosper a long time after - if that happened to be, after US are gon..It would be a hard time, and it will cost both human and other means, but we would survive someway I guess

But in many cases US would be missed,...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

[ChazII]

116. Just my opinion

but I think you did a great job of communicating in a language that is not your first language. Could you explain, in further detail, how the US would be missed? I have my ideas but I (for one) would be appreciate hearing your thoughts.

[Diclotican]

255. ChazII

ChazII

I don't know how to start, because many thing that is "our" today, are indeed from US in origin.. I believe that our time after WW2 would be a very different place to be, if it was not for the US popular culture, and well, it come from the Coke, to what we are seeing at TV.. Or the Internet, where we are writing today.. Or in many cases what we are dressing today.. How would it be, if it was not for the T-shirt?. A american invention who turned upside down how people are clotting everywhere.. Even that the idea have been around for mote than 1000 year..

The music, would be different I believe, men like Elvis Presley was transforming both american youth culture and european culture to a very difficult place.. Without the resources that US had after 6 year with war in europe, our whole continent would be a different place today. And I believe that many thing that is natural to european,to think as european, would be american in origin or it may be it all toghter.. On the other side, we may not had the RAP, and the Hip-Hop.. And that would be a plus if you ask me

I believe that many things in our little north-european country would be very different if it was not for what America once offered.. When the 1950s, 1960s was coming to us it transported the whole country to something that it was not before.. Even today the music, and specially the car, are given many people joy so long after it happend..

It is important to note one thing. My fosterfather who was never that found of US, had many american made car, to the petrol was getting to pricey when you have to full a thirsty V8 engine.. When I was growing up, we had a lot of american made car, from Plymouth, Dodge an so on.. To the Ford.. But that ford was not that good, and it was almost a slegde on the road wintertime.. No fun at all;. And we was living in a rather hilly part with road where the "slegde" as we called the Ford was not on their best drive. But after we was getting Subaru, that problem was over;).. And the Subaru was far less expensive then the Ford, even that it had automatic, and 4WD...

It is many, many thinks that would making the world a more dull place to be, if it was not for US... And we have many things comon with US. For the most part european WANT to have US as a friend, but then US would have to treat us little better: We are friends, and allied with US, but if US want to go totaly over the top, they may loose the friends they have... And that would be a real waste..

My family, have still a smal "tractor" from the Marshall plan sitting in the garden.. And the enige can be started with some work even today. Before it was stamped into the shacis "made in USA": I have not seeing that last time I was loking at it, but I belive it was there even today..

Diclotian

Soryr my bad engelish, not my native language

[ChazII]

263. Thank you.

I am extremely impressed by your thoughts and how eloquently you express them using a second language.

[Diclotican]

277. ChazII

ChazII

You are welcome. I know my English is not that god, but I try my best. And read a lot of English by the way.. Even that I was never a good student in English.. Some that I regret today then... Many times I have to use word who are less correct then they I want to use. Even that my old English/Norwegian dictionary is good to use when you are stuck in a word you just _want_ to use, and who are pointing it so much better than the word I know in English. And I guess I have had some good English teacher in the school too;). Specially my 8 grade teacher, who was extremely good in learning it to even a kid like myself:P

I try to write what I thing about the issue of hand. And US have been a place I admired allot when I was younger. I have to say, the last 8 year have given my some few illusion about the US system.. I fear it is in some deer need of a rather hewy overhaul after mr Bush is out of office.. And it Will be long, painful road for US to go down the road, and do this I am afraid. Many of dear funded illusion would be out, and the hard fact about your place in the world Will come out too. But I do believe that a stronger, better, and "nicer" United States of America would come out of it. And a maybe even MORE powerfully US Will come out.. Just hard military power is not the best way to treat enemy or friends.. It just make fear and that many country in the end Will turn the back of the whole US.. Your "soft power" have been one of the "glue-factor" when it come to cementing the alliance, and friendship many, many european feel when it come to the US.. And if US just want to use this type of power more than they do today, you may even get a lot more friends too.. Even in the former eastern block, your "soft power" was doing a lot to make friends when you may don't know you have it.. When the first McDonald was open in Moscow, the line to get a hamburger was true the block, and beyond.. And that for a leaf of bread, and some meet...

A history from the cold war, when one of the russian leaders was in US, wisting Kennedy by the way, and who was bragging about how better everything was in the USSR even that the US have some great places, and a lot of interesting industry. The USSR was better.. But when the leader with the american counterpart was going to a local McDonald, he was impressed by the fact that the american worker could just go to a shop, and by this thing and just eat it. And as the story goes, he was so impressed, that he was willing to let McDonald make a francis-ce in Moscow, just to let people eat a hamburger - but it was in the cold war, and it never ended that way.. Not before the cold war was over, and "eternal peace" was at hand..

I don't know howe you feel about the end of the cold war, but I know that in 1990 it was a really hope that Russia, Europe and US would manage to get along as real friends. And that the rest of problems would be fixed and that real friendship and peace would be archived.. It failed, but Europe was making peace with itself, both when East and Vest germany was ONE, even that East germany was showing up as broke country and that it Will take a LONG time to get that area of germany up to vest-german level. Some say it Will take a generation or two to archive..

But we do have the hope of peace at hand, even that Europe have been a place of horrible wars, and even today have some real problem who have to be fixed.. But I do hope that we all, when time comes, will come, and we all can work together.. Both European country, EU and US.. We have to do that someway, work together, to make it better, and try to work to get other places a better place. But it would not happened if we are using just military forces to do that. We have to use other means to, to archive Peace, and I don't mean when the other side is killed, or bombed down so they cant do something, but a PEACE where we respect and try to make by..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

[RaleighNCDUer]

149. Whoa. Are you saying that the US has not given back the gold we

were given to keep out of the hands of the Nazis? We've held your gold reserves for the past 65 years?

I didn't know that.

I've read about how it was smuggled out on submarines after the Nazis invaded. I had no idea we still have it. Why is that?

[Diclotican]

251. NCevilDUer

NCevilDUer

I don't know why, as the official history goes, to "care-keeping":crazy: But then, we do have some gold in Uk too, and a little rest in our own vault, so I guess we have some gould home to.. But the most of the gold is indeed in the US..

The nazis would weary indeed had get their hand on the gold in 1940, as they traditionally was doing when they occupied another country, but this time they failed miserable, and it says that mr Hitler was less than impressed by the german actions, and have a lot to say about Norwegian forces on the other hand..

My grandfather was one of them, who was helping the Norwegian military forces to get the gold out of Norway. And he was little produd about the whole thing I guess..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English, not my native language

[RaleighNCDUer]

287. Your grandfather has good reason to be proud of what he did.

It was a truly heroic story.

Americans have, for the most part, no idea of what it would be like to be invaded and occupied except, unfortunately, from the other side.

Welcome to DU, Diclotican.

[Diclotican]

293. NCevilDUer

NCevilDUer

I don't know that he was doing for the hero-part. I believe he just was doing that, because Germany wanted to steal the gold for them self.. And he, as for the most part was angry about that the german has invaded, and want to "give it" to the german that Norwegian was not lying down like that..

And for a shoo-repair (skomaker) it was pretty good.. And he was proud about it, when he was telling it.. After the war, he was returning to his life, and wife, an two young children. My uncle and my father. And was working hard to get a life together after the war.. He was also arrested and was sitting in a prison camp outside Oslo,named Grini. It was not exactly a Concentration camp, but had some of the element, so it was not exactly the best of places to be arrested.. He was running to Sweden after just 14 days, he decided that Grini was not a funny place, and was just slipping out of the camp somehow.. My father have told my that;). It must be hard to not have the husband to care when you had 2 Small kids to care for, my grandmother have a hard time between 1940 and 1945... And the poor soul died of cancer in 1967. My grandfather was very sad, and not re-married either.. I believe he love my grandmother so mutch..

Americans are a lucky people who have never in modern time been invaded.. The brits was beating the american coast in the 1814 but after that American have a rather unknown thing when it come to be invaded.. But you are good to invade other country.. Even that it means thousands of dead people on the other side.. And your media, are very clever when it come to show the invading forces as the light of god,and the other side as the evil who must be flighted back.. Even that the invading forces are less than admirable in their action...

Thank you for your welcome. Have been lurking around here for some year now, starting to look here when the Iraqi war was heating up, by accidence one a another site, a Norwegian site, who discussed the Iraq War, and the WMDs and the whole story I was finding the link to Du, and then I was here sometimes and then in the end started to write her..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad English,not my native language

[MrScorpio]

69. On one point, yes, you can contend that

But the other, I recall that Nazi Germany arose in response to the restrictions put on a post WWI Germany by the Allied powers.

South Korea began as a right wing dictatorship, created by UN mandate and legitimized by US troop presence, until the people arose with demands that democracy prevail.

(BTW, I was stationed there for 21 months. The consensus was that our presence was necessary to prevent the South from going North instead of vice versa. I could tell you about the potted plant that almost started another Korean Conflict someday)

Frankly, I don't think that Japan would not have attacked US bases in the Pacific, had we not been an obstructive force against their access to energy resources. But who knows? They were a violent and militaristic culture. It could have been a matter of time.

AS far as the USSR was concerned, we committed many actions that the Soviets perceived as threats to their safety and sovereignty, which included an actual invasion of Russian territory by US troops. Not to mention some of the acts we committed during the Cold War which could be taken as direct threats, like support for former Axis countries. So, I can understand their doubts about our intentions.


Edit: My point being, that none of the things you mentioned happened in a vacuum

[masonfl]

94. Sort of..

Nazi Germany arose in part because the Versailles (sp?) Treaty forced them to pay extremely severe war reparations following World War I. The result was a crippled post-war government that was very unpopular. It's debatable whether the "restrictions" placed on Wiemar Germany were excessive...they probably were. It caused a major depression in Germany. But many countries go through depressions and don't turn into dictatorships. The US is one example that comes to mind.

Being an apologist for Japan is totally crazy dude! They were an imperialist country bent on controlling all of Asia...at least. They were already killing Chinese in huge numbers by the time they attacked the US. They needed oil to keep their war machine going. Trying to put the blame in the US is nuts.

[RaleighNCDUer]

150. We came really, really close.

Read up on Gen Smedley Butler and the Businessmen's Plot. We very nearly had a RW coup in 34, which would have put us on the OTHER side in WWII.

[14thColony]

194. And granddad too!

And read up on the Who's Who of America's rich and priveleged that Major General Butler named as being part of the pro-fascist Business Plot: it includes Mr. Prescott Bush, grandpa of the current incumbent. Ahhhhh, the apple falls not so far from the tree, eh? Fascism: The REAL Bush family value.

[conscious evolution]

80. That was then This is now

Times have changed.For the worse.
60 years ago America was a force for good.Not anymore.
For the last 40 or so years our country's rulers have caused more discord and strife than virtually any other country on the planet.
Mr Scorpio's,and my,opinion is based on looking on ALL of the facts.Not just the sanitized versions presented to us by our media and educational institutions.

"You already have a preconceived opinion on the matter and carefully select facts to support your argument without taking an objective look at things..."

You know what?The more I read over that line,the more I am reminded of how bushco presented the basis of war with Iraq.They came into office from day one with the preconcieved notion of invading Iraq and then used carefully selected 'facts' to sell the war to the public.

[INDIA]

82. Somalia wasn't a noble effort?

Our involvement in the Balkans wasn't a force for good? What about our repeated attempts to broker peace between Israel and Palestine (Camp David Accords etc.) Our significant involvement in the United Nations? Our huge amounts of money donated to feed the world's hungry and help end AIDS in Africa? Gulf War I, (protecting a defenseless ally) wasn't a good thing (even with $ sas an ulterior motive)? The toppling of the Taliban? Our recent PEACEFUL breakthroughs with Libya and North Korea? And I hate to go all Reagan with the "evil empire" rhetoric, but the world is a much nicer place without the Soviet Union. Ask anyone from Eastern Europe. Not to mention the technologigal and medical advances the United States has given to the world in the last 40 years.

Of course boneheaded moves like the Iraq invasion and the saber rattling with Iran couterbalance this, but I still believe that this country is an overall force for good, regardless of Chimpy's fuckups in the last 7 years.

And I doubt that any candidate from either party, other than that fuckwit Ron Paul, would disagree with me.

[conscious evolution]

83. One 'oh shit'

trumps a hundred 'atta boys'.

[MrScorpio]

84. I know that this may a hard thing to conceive

But altruism IS NOT a central pillar in US foreign policy.

It never has been.

If it was ever manifested as such, it was a side effect of this country's pursuit of it's own self interests.

With every thing you mentioned, as with others, we always demand something else in return.

In many a case, the price for the beneficiaries of our largess was a high one to pay.

[Truth2Tell]

106. OK, one at a time...

Somalia wasn't a noble effort?

In Somalia we were trying to buttress our image in the world after our failure to intervene in numerous brutal situations where we could have done so in previous years. It was basically a PR stunt. The American forces never moved beyond Mogadishu to the areas where the famine was really killing thousands. Our troops in Somalia acted like crazed teenagers playing violent video games as they drove around the city. Estimates of civilian deaths in Somalia at the hands of American forces range between 7000 and 10,000 - as many as 1/3 children. As soon as we suffered a high-profile defeat in battle we got hell out of there. Our effort was a far cry from "noble"

Our involvement in the Balkans wasn't a force for good?

Maybe. But at what cost? Our aerial bombardment of the Balkans reaped massive havoc on civilians there. We weren't willing to intervene with ground forces in places like Srebrenica, but we rained death from the air. But more relevant was our intentions. Bosnia was touted by our leaders as a humanitarian intervention. Yet one look at other similar humanitarian crises taking place in the world at the same time as Bosnia demonstrates the hypocrisy of that allegation. At the same time as we were intervening in Bosnia, the Turks were ethnically cleansing the Kurds and The government of Indonesia was committing genocide in East Timor. Both of these governments were supported and armed by the U.S. and we did virtually nothing to stop them - in fact we enabled and supported them. The argument that defeating Milosovic was a good thing is similar to the argument that defeating Saddam was a good thing. It's true, but it really doesn't explain our motivations. Bosnia was about our continuing geo-political struggle with Russia for resources and power. Iraq is about Oil and power and Israel, etc. It's handy when we finally decide to turn against our favorite dictators and them claim we are fighting for 'democracy," but a look under sheets and elsewhere in the world reveals that claim to be hypocritical nonsense.

What about our repeated attempts to broker peace between Israel and Palestine (Camp David Accords etc.)

This has mostly been a sham. We have supported the Israeli position in almost all instances of "peace talks" over the last 50 years. We have not been anything close to an honest broker. America has held the power to bring resolution to the I/P conflict for many years but has chosen not to exercise that power. Camp David was progress - but in a very limited way. We forced our own puppet dictators in a few Arab countries to abandon the Palestinians against the wishes of their own people. We're still paying for Camp David. it's no accident Egypt is the second largest recipient of U.S. aid - which they use to torture and repress dissent.

Our significant involvement in the United Nations?

Only when it suits us. And only when we can use its undemocratic nature to influence UN policy to suit our goals.

Our huge amounts of money donated to feed the world's hungry and help end AIDS in Africa?

Look up what we spend, relative to GDP, on such things compared to rest of the developed world. A hint: we're not in the top ten. And more importantly, imagine what we could've accomplished in the world with just 1/10th of our multi-billion Dollar military budget devoted to such things. We really could've changed the world. Instead we have looted it.

Gulf War I, (protecting a defenseless ally) wasn't a good thing (even with $ sas an ulterior motive)?

You mentioned the $$, not me. But don't you mean protecting a feudal dictatorship that oppressed women and abused foreigners against a monster that we created in the first place? For money? And oil? Nice.

The toppling of the Taliban?

Again, like Bosnia, a case of convenient positive results helpful in disguising real motivations. And we created the Taliban BTW. Not to mention Osama Bin Laden. But at least poppy production is back up to snuff. And Conoco Phillips can run a natural gas pipeline from central asia to the Indian Ocean. And the jury is still out on the Great Afghan Victory, in case you hadn't noticed.

Our recent PEACEFUL breakthroughs with Libya and North Korea?

Are the people of those nations better off now? Maybe. The jury is still our on both of those cases, but that's not much to hang a hat on.

And I hate to go all Reagan with the "evil empire" rhetoric, but the world is a much nicer place without the Soviet Union

Sure, the world is better w/out the Soviet Union, but unless you wanna "go all Reagan," its pretty tough for the U.S. to take real credit for the fall of the Soviet Union. But I'm not ganna crack that jar open here.

the technological and medical advances the United States has given to the world

We've had our share, and so have others. But its no surprise when we have all the money thanks to our looting of the rest of the worlds resources. Go figure.

[conscious evolution]

210. Great reply

Let me add to one

Gulf War I, (protecting a defenseless ally) wasn't a good thing (even with $ sas an ulterior motive)?

In GW1 we were protecting a country that was STEALING billions of dollars of oil from Iraq.
Kuwait was using side slant drilling to tap into Iraqs oil fields.That is what April Gillespie was talking about when she gave said the US has no interests in Kuwaiti-Iraqi border disputes.

[INDIA]

228. U GUYZ are RIGHTS!!!111!!! Amerika SUXSSS!!!!!!!!

What was I thinking???? It is soooooooooooooo progressive and KEWL to HATE AMERIKA!!!111!!!


I'm sure that if you try hard enough you can fault in just about any "good" action.

Mother Teresa? That bitch was pushing the Catholic church's agenda on those poor people while she was feeding them. And Catholic priests molest little boys, so Mother Teresa wasn't a good person at all.

When Brad Pitt and Sean Penn go to aid New Orleans, they are only doing so for a PR stunt, and to boost their careers, so they aren't really noble or good either.



Anybody who goes to such lengths to smear some of the admirable things this country has done is probably an cynical, self hating, unhappy person. And what is it like to vote for somebody who most likely thinks you're an idiot? Maybe I should ask you again in November. (Unless you vote for Ron Paul, he'd probably agree with everything you just wrote.)

[Truth2Tell]

234. cynical, self hating, unhappy person. ??

What an intelligent thing to say.

Those of us who have come to understand the truth about America's destructive role in the world tell others about it because we love our country. I want my daughter to grow up safe and secure. Our nation's blind militarism is bankrupting us financially and morally. Breeding enemies makes us less safe. Do you think the rest of the world just hates us because they misunderstand all the good we have done? They are confused?

Go drink some more Kool-Aid. All Heil Amerika!

[INDIA]

238. Your quote:

"Do you think the rest of the world just hates us because they misunderstand all the good we have done?"

Are you a fan of baseball? Well if you are, and you weren't brought up as a Yankee fan, you probably HATE the Yankees. "Yankees Suck, Yankees Suck" is all you'll hear from fans of other, smaller, less wealthy, less successful teams.

Are the Yankees necessarily bad guys? Of course not. A-Rod and Jeter, Bernie Williams are by all accounts good, hardworking, talented, nice human beings. Their fans can be rude and full of themselves sometimes (just like Americans), but are overall good, passionate, knowledgable fans. Steinbrenner is kind of an asshole, (he's the Bush of the Yankees) but just because the owner is an asshole doesn't mean the Yankees suck. In the process they buy up all the best players, push around smaller, less wealthy teams, and generally piss everybody off by winning all the championships. The Yankees are doing what's best for their team and their fans. Does that make them bad? Does that make them suck? I don't think so.

I've spent a good time abroad. I've (like many other Americans minding their own business in bars) had jerks come up to me and start critisizing my country. Asked to back up their bullshit, very few ever can. When I ask them where they are from, their own country usually has it's own spotty history as well. One guy claimed that WWII was actually America's fault because Prescott Bush supported the Nazis. Regardless of whether that is true or not, WWII was NOT Americas fault. And forgive me if I don't give a fuck about people hating America who think the holocaust never happened.

I've run into many foreigners in NYC before, from China, Germany, Russia, and people in America consider it interesting and exotic to have an overseas visitor among them, and certainly don't bring up unpleasant parts of their nations history.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

239. What does any of this have to do with the NYY?

If it weren't for sports/military/war analogies most Americans wouldn't be able to express a thought. I can't believe you trivialize an important issue (one that ALL Americans should care about) by invoking a meaningless sports rivalry.

[INDIA]

259. What "important issue" is that? America Sucking???

I think I can actually hear the freepers cutting and pasting the comments on this thread in order to prove Democrats really DO hate America.

Seriously, answer my question. What is it like to vote for somebody who, if they met you and heard your viewpoints on this "important issue", would think you're an idiot? I don't know that feeling. The Dems I vote for line up pretty well with my own viewpoints on the issues. Do you honestly think John Edwards, Clinton or Obama would agree with the anti-American CRAP on this thread? Of course not, they would distance themselves from this crap and pretend not to know you.

You act like I'm some sort of pariah for thinking America is a good country. I'm with the vast majority of Democrats, and the majority of Americans. You and your self hating anti-American buddies are fringe dwellers, and what's most disturbing is how much in line you are with Ron Paul's viewpoint. Why don't you just vote for Ron Paul in November? He's probably going independent.

But whatever ups your fringe left street cred I guess...

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

261. You think I give a slippery shit what the freepers think?

Yo freeptards: I HATE MURIKA! Happy? Don't worry no candidate, for any public office will ever offend people like you (who believe all the bullshit and falsehoods about this country you've been told since childhood). The "vast majority of Americans" are some of the most deluded people on this planet and you're proud to stand with THEM? Were you with the "vast majority of Americans" when 92% of them thought George W. Bush was doing a great job fightin' terra? Were you with the "vast majority of Americans" when 70% of them thought Iraq posed an imminent threat to this country? I'm well aware my opinions aren't exactly within the mainstream of popular American opinion. However, I, along with many of my "anti-American buddies and fringe dwellers", were 100% right on almost every major issue of the last seven years. Why should I care what the "vast majority of Americans" think? Especially since the "vast majority of Americans" allow themselves to be easily mis-lead and manipulated?

[conscious evolution]

273. 'they would distance themselves '

Then they would being exemplifying moral cowardism.In my opinion that makes them just as unfit to lead this country as the repukes.Because of this Obama and Clinton will never get my vote.
The problems that are country faces will not be solved until we face up to the fact that there is a problem.Denial and\or ignorance only insures that we dig ourselves into a deeper hole.
Ron Paul? No thanks.While I agree with a couple of things he says his solutions would only worsen the crisis our country faces.
Personnally,I intend on voting for Al Gore as a write-in candidate in my states primary.At least he understands that there is a problem.

By the way:Your use of rightwing talking points are what make you seem like a pariah.Not your ignorance of the problems we face.That is understandable considering the state of our media and educational institutions.

[INDIA]

280. 2 things...

Saying "America DOESN'T suck" is not a right wing talking point. That's ridiculous.

Neither John Edwards nor Al Gore would be caught dead agreeing with or espousing the anti-American crap on this thread. You're living in a fantasy world if you think otherwise.

Sorry. That's just the price you have to pay for existing on the fringes of politics. But at least you have DU!

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

283. Unfortunately you're right.

All politicians pander to the fears/prejudices/ignorance/stupidity of the American public.

[conscious evolution]

284. Why do you attack Americans

who exercise their constitutional right to speak out against the what our country has become?
That is what real America haters do.
And yes,calling those of us who speak out against our goverment 'self hating anti-American buddies' is a rightwing talking point.

[Truth2Tell]

240. Ahhhhh, they're just JEALOUS!

Because we are SOOOO great.

Got it. Thanks.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

241. Haven't heard that one since late Autumn 2001! n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

292. It sounds like you are having difficulty differentiating between

America and some Americans.

For sixty years, America's unstated but obvious policy has been the spreading of American hegemony across the world. Whether through economic imperialism, covert subversion or direct military action we have sought, like no other nation except Soviet Russia, to dominate the world, and we beat the Russians at it. We have, in 60 years, invaded or subverted or occupied (not counting the 'peaceful' occupations of post-war Europe and Japan) Korea, Iran, Guatamala, Honduras, Vietnam, Cambodia, Lebanon, Dominican Republic, Chile, Libya, Lebanon (again), Panama, Grenada, Iraq, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq (again) - and we're setting up for another run on Iran. I'm sure I've missed a few. We have @780 military bases in more than 70 countries world-wide, a record that even beats the British empire at its height, and there is not a single country in the world that follows that policy - even the Soviet Union kept nearly all its military bases to the Soviet Republics, and as of today I don't believe there are any Russian military bases outside Russia.

In contrast to US imperialism, most Americans are decent, honest, hard-working, generous people - who don't seem to have any say about US policy. When was the last time you saw on a ballot a question about the need for military bases overseas?

The point is, we need to bring American policy back in line with the will of the American people. If we abandon empire we can, once again, be a beacon of freedom to the world - but as long as we pursue empire, those words are ashes in the mouth.

[MattSh]

112. Have YOU actually asked anyone?

...the world is a much nicer place without the Soviet Union. Ask anyone from Eastern Europe.

Have YOU asked anyone? I mean, someone who, right now, lives somewhere IN the former Soviet Union?

No?

I didn't think so. I've lived here in Kiev for over two years. And I can tell you it's not that hard to find someone reminiscing about the former Soviet Union. Are some things better now? Sure. Are some things worse now? Of course. But don't go reporting it as true because the US mainstream media reports it as true. After Saddam and WMD, it's a crime that anyone believes much of anything the MSM says.

[DutchLiberal]

164. Harry Truman didn't need to commit genocide to stop Japan.

The most hideous war crime ever: Hiroshima and Nagasaki:











NO, the US has NOT done 'more harm than good'.

Country Dictator Dates Statistics

Chile Gen. Augusto Pinochet 1973-1990 3000 murdered. 400,000 tortured.
Argentina Gen. Jorge Rafael Videla 1976-1981 30,000 murdered. more
Indonesia Suharto 1965 coup against left-leaning Sukarno,
1975 support of East Timor genocide
500,000 dead after 1965 coup; 100,000-230,000 dead in East Timor; more, more, more.
Guatemala Armas, Fuentes, Montt 1954-
Iran The Shah of Iran
Ayatollah Khomeini was on the CIA payroll in the 1970s in Paris
Egypt Sadat, Mubarak 1978-today
Iraq Saddam Hussein
Nicaragua Anastasio Somoza & sons 1937-1979
Paraguay Stroessner. US supported throughout (state.gov says US has supported Paraguayan development since 1942) ($142M between 1962 and 1975) 1954-1989
Bolivia Col. Hugo Banzer overthrew elected leftist president Juan Jose Torres 1970-
Angola Jonas Savimbi/UNITA (didn't actually win his revolution, but killed or displaced millions) 1975-1989
Zaire Mobutu
Saudi Arabia Saud family
Kuwait a monarchy
Morocco
Tunisia
Algeria
Jordan
Panama Noriega was US-supported for years
Haiti Papa Doc, Baby Doc
Dominican Republic Trujillo, a military dictator for 32 years with US support for most of that time; Belaguer, Trujillo's protege, installed after US Marines intervened to put down an attempt to restore the democratically elected government of Juan Bosch 1930-61, 1965-78
Honduras
El Salvador 1980s
Nepal monarchy since 1948
Cuba Fulgencio Batista pre-Castro
Brazil Gen. Branco overthrew elected president Goulart with US support 1965-67
Uzbekistan Kamirov "The Boiler", $150M from the Bush administration for an air base. 1965-67

That does NOT weigh up to the little good the US has done.

[noiretextatique]

223. i think the iraqi people would disagree with you

we weren't so munificient as to allow germans jews into this country, knowing full well their fate with hitler. and of course, we interned american citizens of japanese ancestry while at war with japan. more good than harm...right.

[baby_mouse]

247. Im[perial Jaan perhaps, but not the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany.

The Soviet Union was too big to survive and Nazi Germany was destroyed by the legendary Russian assaults.

Legendary, that is, everywhere except America.

[masonfl]

95. I'm no fan of the way WWII ended

But you know the argument, right? The cost in lives of Americans AND Japanese would likely have been much higher had the US been forced to invade rather than force the Japanese to surrender. That's a tough decision...

[14thColony]

204. That is and has always been rationalization after the fact

I bought it too for a long time until I dug into the matter a bit. The reality is the Japanese were trying to surrender long prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki; we kept playing a game of moving goalposts to make sure they didn't surrender before we had a chance to drop the bombs on them. The insistance on Unconditional Surrender was for the specific reason that the Japanese government would never accept it, since they believed we would end their system of monarchy. Given that sine que non, the Japanese fought on even though by all accounts they desperately wanted to end the war. The result appears to be that not only did the bombs not shorten the war, the US government actually dragged the war in the Pacific out just long enough to get the bombs ready and drop them. In the end the Japanese did NOT surrender unconditionally. Once the bombs were dropped we let them know that we would accept the retention of the monarchy, with Hirohito as monarch, if they surrendered. Once they had that assurance (which is all they had been trying to get all along) the Japanese surrendered post haste.

*********************************************

Partial timeline of events:

January 1945 - MacArthur forwarded to the President a Japanese offer to surrender which was exactly the same as the one the US would eventually accept 7 months later. This offer came prior to the battles of Iwo Jima and Okinawa, which combined killed over 65,000 Americans and 130,000 Japanese.

8 May 1945 - Japan tried to surrender through the Soviet Union (the two countries were not at war yet, so the USSR was a 'neutral').

11 July 1945 - Japan offered to surrender unconditionally, with one exception - they wished to retain their system of monarchy. The US neither responded to this nor any other previous offer.

Late July 1945 - Japan offers to surrender through its mission in Switzerland (see Dulles quote at bottom); offer ignored.

6 August 1945 - The uranium bomb 'Little Boy' is dropped on Hiroshima, instantly killing over 70,000 people.

Excerpts of Japanese diplomatic communiques, which US intelligence was able to decode and read during much of the war (Project MAGIC):

July 11: "make clear to Russia... We have no intention of annexing or taking possession of the areas which we have been occupying as a result of the war; we hope to terminate the war".
July 12: "it is His Majesty's heart's desire to see the swift termination of the war".
July 13: "I sent Ando, Director of the Bureau of Political Affairs to communicate to the Ambassador that His Majesty desired to dispatch Prince Konoye as special envoy, carrying with him the personal letter of His Majesty stating the Imperial wish to end the war" (U.S. Dept. of State, Potsdam 1, pg. 873-879).
July 18: "Negotiations... necessary... for soliciting Russia's good offices in concluding the war and also in improving the basis for negotiations with England and America." (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/18/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).
July 21: Communication from Togo noted that a conference between the Emperor's emissary, Prince Konoye, and the Soviet Union was sought in preparation for contacting the U.S. and Great Britain (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/22/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).
July 22: "Special Envoy Konoye's mission will be in obedience to the Imperial Will. He will request assistance in bringing about an end to the war through the good offices of the Soviet Government."
July 26: Japan's Ambassador to Moscow, Sato, to the Soviet Acting Commissar for Foreign Affairs, Lozovsky: "The aim of the Japanese Government with regard to Prince Konoye's mission is to enlist the good offices of the Soviet Government in order to end the war." (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/26/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).

When General Dwight Eisenhower was told of the bomb he said: "...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." - Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11 November 1963

"I had been in touch with certain Japanese in Switzerland who in turn were in touch with high quarters in Japan - I imagine the Emperor. They came to me and said the Japanese were ready to surrender provided the Emperor could be saved so as to have unity in Japan. I took that word to Secretary Stimson at Potsdam on July 20, 1945... wiser men than I -- people who know the military situation -- reached the decision ." - Secretary of State Allen Dulles, 19 January 1963, interview on WOR-TV, New York

Why did the US drop the bomb? The best explanation is that US possession of nuclear weapons, along with a convenient live demonstration of what one weapon could do to a large city, would make the Soviets more "managable" in Europe. Truman said, "If this explodes as I think it will, I'll certainly have a hammer on those boys." indicating the Soviet leadership - ch 19 page 239 of The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb by Gar Alperovitz, NY:Knopf, 1995. Truman took a hard line in Potsdam because he had the bomb; had Japan already surrendered there would have been no demonstration to instill terror in the Soviet leadership, and therefore make them more pliable in Europe. Japan had to stay in the war long enough to play their role.

[lumberjack_jeff]

188. Remind me how that war started. n/t

[Wednesdays]

233. There were nukes used at Pearl Harbor?

first time I've ever heard of it. :shrug:

[Laelth]

86. Those of us on the left criticize America ...

... because we love our country and we want to make it better. You can't fix what's wrong unless you're intellectually honest enough to be objective and actually see the problems that need fixing.

Don't you agree?

:toast:

-Laelth

[masonfl]

96. Yes, I agree

But what I read wasn't so much criticism as it was whining and blaming. Offer constructive ideas, not just reasons why...we suck. :)

Here are my ideas:

1. Capitalism is here to stay. Consumers and government should provide incentives for corporations to do the right thing, not just make more $$ for $$ sake. Read Bill Gates speech from today about a new approach to capitalism. Maybe not the best idea in the world but worth looking at.

2. Get rid of Republicans in the white house. They screw things up in most cases. But don't get rid of them in Washington altogether because neither side functions well when they have too much power. The Congress needs to learn to cooperate more, not just give one side the power to steamroll the other.

3. Rather than just offering tax deductions for individual charitable giving, the feds should MATCH individual donations up to a certain amount. Hey, maybe a dumb idea but it just came to mind. My company matches my donations and it's very cool.

4 Stop bitching so much. There's already too much of that. Positive thoughts help.

[Laelth]

206. Liberalism is a system of thought that is capitalist in nature.

Liberalism protects capitalism from its own excesses (slavery, child labor, 70 hour work weeks, etc.). Ultimately, it's function is to preserve capitalism by making it tolerably humane and, thereby, preventing the revolution of the proletariat. Many criticize FDR for this very reason. His reforms prevented a socialist revolution in the U.S. like that experienced in Russia and China.

But any argument that says "stop bitching" is going to be read by me and others as "shut up and take it, you worthless POS)." That's probably not very effective, rhetorically speaking. I favor more speech (of all kinds, bitching included) over less speech. Ever noticed that television zombies don't bitch while they're watching TV? Bitching is a sign of an active mind seeking justice. What could possibly be wrong with that?

Or, perhaps I should just go get some popcorn. I hear there's a new TV show on tonight. I would be a lot happier if I were fat, lazy, and eating in front of my TV instead of worrying about what's wrong with America. Now, that's a positive thought.

:popcorn:

-Laelth

[baby_mouse]

157. I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

[fascisthunter]

170. Says the Deluded

:crazy:

[melody]

29. Bush and the government suck

America itself does not. I love my people. I do not think we suck ... or blow, for that matter.

[Deja Q]

66. What about the corporations?

Are they "multi-national" or "American"?

[melody]

108. They're global/multi-national. The only American corporations anymore are small ones. n/t

[SunDrop23]

33. Good post. I'm working on my exit.

Going to leave the US and get citizenship somewhere else (which will remain unnamed so I don't have to hear people say "that place sucks.")

Hope to be relocated by end of 2008.

[Pavulon]

35. Are you going to renounce?

or keep dual. Dual is not a bad option for many. Just curious..

[Zywiec]

38. What country are you planning to get citizenship? n/t

[Deja Q]

63. Tell us how the penguins are in Antarctica...

Tell us where we can buy "How to Talk Penguin in 30 Easy Steps"...

Something tells me they'll squawk "America sucks!" too. Probably because they love to sell different colored ipods to (e.g. the latest model being pink for their latest target audience) while making poorly designed batteries that leak into any number of landfills, while Oprah hawks the bright red ones with the sunglasses wearing doofus rock star when otherwise whining children want ipods more than education, what having looked up to her (and the rock star) as role models and all...

Maybe you can tell us if that famous pengy writer, William Pengspeare, is still alive. Keep an eye out for his writings. I gather he does calligraphy with his beak, having stolen the ink from the local octopus because his boss is too cheap to give hima proper wage, of which would go back to him when Willy buys his boss' products...

[Two Americas]

47. it really depends

It depends on what we mean when we say "America" or when we say "we" or "us."

People mean different things when they use those words, and it is very telling, but is rarely noticed or commented on. Some of the people identify with the rulers, some with the common people.

When people who identify with the rulers say "America sucks" they really mean the ruling class sucks. They are equating "America" with the ruling class - the wealthy and powerful and their agents. They also betray this when they say "we" did such and such - as in "we invaded Iraq."

Most working class people see America as family, friends and neighbors, and they are offended when someone says "America sucks." They also say "they" when referring to the actions of the ruling class.

A day doesn't go by here without people referring to the ruling class as "we" and referring to the general public as "they" This betrays an identification with the wealthy and powerful, and is a hidden source of the profound disconnection between the leadership of the Democratic party and their most vocal and dominant followers on the one hand and the general public - especially the bottom half - on the other.

When people who identify with the upper class talk about "the history of America" they really mean the history of the ruling class. They think that the ruling class IS America without realizing that they do. This is pervasive among more upscale activists and consultants and party organizers and campaigners.

As an aside, this is why the history and contributions of African Americans, of women, of the labor movement and labor leaders, and of indigenous people is almost invisible.

I say that America - the everyday common people - is good. I say that is "us." I say that "they" - the ones who have almost all of the wealth and power in the country and are destroying the country - suck. I say that "we" - the everyday people, the have-nots, the workers, the forgotten ones, the invisible ones - can overcome "they" and their sycophants and apologists who identify with them.

By the simple and overlooked matter of identification - do we see the people as "we" or "they" and do we see the wealthy and powerful few as "we" or "they" - we signal to the everyday people which side in the battle we stand on. Democrats have been driving everyday people away without realizing they are before the conversation even gets started.

People may claim that they are on the side of the little people, or claim that their favorite politicians are, or claim that different actions or policies of the party favor the workers and not the wealthy corporate and financial interests, but they betray where their true identification and loyalty lies by how they define “America” and when they use “we” and when they use “they.”

[MrScorpio]

49. If it were easy to separate the rulers from the ruled...

I'm sure that a solution would be much easier to achieve.

But, in as all parties exist with so much symbiosis here, a mutual group identity is a given

It's cause for shared blame and responsibility.

It's the reason for the level of inculcation that we've lived with all of our lives, and the result of it.

[Two Americas]

73. really?

I can't imagine it being more obvious than it is now.

Granted, the boot heel of the tyrant rests fairly lightly on a few - the 10% of the population who are doing fairly well but are not wealthy and have to work to survive. That is the only segment of the population that has any confusion about this. The working class people in the professions who imagine themselves in the "middle" - halfway between the poor and the super wealthy, and who in exchange for status and income and security speak for the super wealthy and in opposition to the bottom 90%. Malcolm X most eloquently spoke about this when he talked about the "house Negroes" - those who identified with and defended and promoted the interests of the rulers and were paid off with a slightly better life and with status.

[AspenRose]

72. That is a most excellent post.

It deserves a thread of its own. It really does. :applause:

[MedleyMisty]

137. I've never thought of it that way

I used to work at Arby's and I have a better job now but still only make a bit over $10/hour so yeah - I don't identify with rich and powerful people.

But I think of my friends and family as my friends and family and don't identify them with the name of the spot of land that they happened to be born on and use "we" when talking about the actions of the government because we're all responsible. Varying degrees of responsibility, sure, but all of us are cogs in the murder machine.

Plus, for those who haven't realized their status as cogs or what the machine does yet, using "we" instead of "they" nudges them toward realizing that yes, this is something I need to think about and something inside myself that I could change. Using "they" makes it easy to just dismiss it as the "Other" and not examine your role in the machine and not take responsibility for the role that you play. And since for some reason the boards I am attracted to on the internet include a lot of middle class suburban white folks who like to conform and parrot the media and live comfortable lives and never think about people who suffer as a result of our government's actions, most of the people that I talk to about it have a fair bit of responsibility.

[fishnfla]

52. Education is the key

I'll skip over the crappy punctuation ( dude, learn where to place a comma, when to capitalize a word, and how to write a sentence).


Then learn the difference between drawing conclusions and drawing circular logic; were the robber barons given a choice or forced to choose? Or they chose to be forced to changed? Clear as mud, that, and an example of pulling shit out of your ass and declaring it gold.


Lastly, please learn the difference between facts and opinion. Otherwise just stick to music, you're good at that.

[MrScorpio]

59. Mea Culpa on Commagate

But, I was making a somewhat vague reference on the coercive aspect of taxing the Barons. Either they spent their wealth as they saw fit, or by proxy as the government saw fit.

In that way, I contend that they were forced into making a choice.

[SammyWinstonJack]

60. ...

:thumbsup:

[Deja Q]

62. Go stick a finger up Hitler and call it a plumb.

Okay, in heated emotional reaction, or for any number of reasons, anyone can make typos or grammatical errors.

You obviously figured out what the OP was saying. He wasn't as much of a hack as you're making him out to be.

And you proved a different point: The difference between open communication and mud slinging. Right, not, or in between, the OP had something worthy of solid discussion. All you did was attack and insult him in return. Not very nice...

His grammatical skills may or may not be up for debate. But one thing is for sure: Most people would rather read a thoughtful post, respond to it thoughtfully, and continue such a conversation than by slinging insults and attacking...

Wait, this is DU - more proof I am wrong in my own assertion. :crazy:

Sorry for the harsh tone in my message to you. I hope it is equal in distaste to the last sentence you gave out at the end of your reply. That was the only point I wanted to make. Infer what you wish.

[ismnotwasm]

55. Plenty of room for improvement for sure

I'm a big Howard Zinn fan. I hate the revisionist history that passes for education in our school systems.


BTW, I note this thread has developed odeur of freeper.

[Binka]

64. Yes They Are Wearing Their Favorite Perfume

L'air de ass carrot.

[WillyT]

56. Yeah... It Basically Sucks Up Everything !!!

:shrug:

[Deja Q]

65. Britney into oral again?

(the way the media treats her, Britney _is_ America...)

:hide:

[WillyT]

76. Lately...It Looks Like She's Into Nasal, Ya Know ???

:shrug:

[fascisthunter]

171. Poor Poor Amewicans

don't say bad dings about my contwee.

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

74. Maybe everything you say is true, but

I don't know of a country that is historically more self-critical than the US (thanks in large part to a self-critical tradition as employed here at DU). I have lots of friends from all over the globe. When I happen to get together with them (at various times and places), it always amazes me how myopic they are of their own historical problems (extreme phyletism--especially the Greeks and Spaniards; oh, God, the Russians--like Rokmaninov saved fucking humanity). One of our better traits is that we like to beat ourselves up (rightfully so) and shit on ourselves (again, rightfully so). Many of my friends non-apologetically cheer their countries at sporting events (which is great); hell, I've witnessed some tense moments BETWEEN FRIENDS over World Cup. But sweet Jesus do they hate it when I wear my LeBron jersey during Olympic basketball. HATE IT. Somehow I've transgressed some sort of international boundary by supporting US B-ball (even if I'm not wearing a US jersey--Go Cavs).

Anyway I'm rambling. No train of thought. U.S.A. sucks dick. Yet, strangely, go U.S.A.

[MrScorpio]

79. This is the very thing that I'm glad that left up for discussion

We do have this element for self evaluation and change. I did hint at it

But like I mentioned before, we have to first admit that we have a problem before we can change to fix it.

[Truth2Tell]

107. more self-critical ??

I just don't see that. Maybe on the internets, or in some universities. But most regular folks I know think the same way some of the posters in this thread think: ie, that we are The Greatest Nation on earth, The Greatest Democracy on Earth, The Greatest Force for Good, blah blah blah... Too many pledges of allegiance in public school or something.

[Politicub]

208. I agree with everything you said

And I posted this quote earlier, but I like it enough to post it again :) :

"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."

-James Baldwin, Notes of a Native Son

[Laelth]

236. It is my home, for better or for worse.

And I'm with you. Go U.S.A.!

But I'm not letting any little fascist tell me I can't criticize it (or that chimp that's running it). When the fascist says, "Love it or leave it," I say, "you first!"

:patriot:

-Laelth

[Yavin4]

81. Our Day of Reckoning Is Nigh

The only reason why Japan and the European nations have strong, vibrant, and well-educated middle classes is because they gave up on being empires in the 20th century. From WWII until now, they've concentrated on their own countries instead of dominating the world.

We will either learn this lesson or we will completely collapse. Those are our only choices.

[Laelth]

85. Very well said.

I can't deny the truth of your analysis.

I would only add that we have a foundational document that says this:

We, the People, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Originally, you are right to suggest that "we" meant landowning white males, but the trick is to change the definition of "we" and make it work for all citizens and not just the white, landowning males. We are heading in the direction of an all-encompassing "we" (whether the conservatives like it or not), and we are getting better. If "we" means all of us, the system can work. I have to believe that. 200+ years of progress give me some hope.

:dem:

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--typos in the Preamble are, simply, not allowed. ;)

[BeHereNow]

87. I am SO recommending this thread!

Tell it like it IS~!
Thank you.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

BHN:hug:

[cherokeeprogressive]

91. What you mean; WE, kimosabe? n/t

[shenmue]

213. Hear, hear.

:D

[JCMach1]

105. 100% disagree... living outside the US and traveling extensively gives some perspective on this

While screwing up many things since 2000, America is still a very free country... one of the most.

List of things that are bad and I do hate about America:

1. the Paranoia... get some therapy already. The media has turned Americans into the most paranoid people on the planet.

2. Paternalism and Conservatism... these often go hand-in-hand but not always.

3. The fact that Americans have completely bought into the 'free market' koolaid even if it KILLS THEM.

4. Safety... It is one of the most unsafe countries in the world... I feel safer in Beirut than NYC, that's all you need to know.

5. America is NOT child friendly... it is like stepping into some dark corner where children are loathed every time we visit home.

6. Bush and Repugs... :puke:

7. So many people do not take politics seriously.


Having said that, America is still one of the best and freest places to live scoring highly on less discrimination, less poverty, more opportunity, more care of the environment, and much more.

With a few exceptions, I would live there over anywhere else in the world.

[spoony]

109. Thankfully, our candidates disagree.

Personally I'm not interested in anyone who wants to hang their head, sit in ashes, and mope about how much (fill in the blank) sucks. It's just aggrandised self-pity, frankly, masking itself in the guise of awareness.

You see these threads every so often, and I always think, "do you really imagine you're telling us things we don't know? That our leaders have been corrupt and our fellow citizens complacent?" We all know this. And yet, we trudge on. We try. The only other option is to sit and wring your hands.

[malaise]

113. Great post

Most Americans bought the myths until it dawned on them that Bushco is willing to do to them what other US governments have done to others elsewhere.

[Fedja]

114. The Greatest.

I find this thread of replies highly amusing, many people gone on an emotional rollercoaster. :D

Either way, a brief comment to those that pound their chests and claim that the USA is great because of freedom, democracy, and similar. Look up "freedom" and "democracy" in a dictionary and -really- compare them with the reality. The state and the corporations it serves have put their collective boot down on both freedom and democracy. Technically speaking, you have neither.

The mere fact that so many people can stand up and claim that the US is the "greatest country in the world" means they can't be self-crytical. And when faced with someone who can be, they resort to ludicrous answers such as "we did more good than bad". Sure, I may have robbed your house last night, but I give a dollar to a homeless guy every day.

If you truly loved your country, if you really really cared for it... You'd point at every single thing that's wrong with it. You'd rebel, protest, and criticize wherever you saw an opening. That's the only way to move things along, to change it for the better.

The true enemy of the US is the guy with the american flag on his wall, quietly complacent, who has convinced himself that it's "good enough". The guy that knows it's the best place in the world to live. The guy that's a "blank cheque patriot" because it's easier to cruise-control thorough life like that. Look around you, most people you know are that very guy.

[Enrique]

140. saying it sucks is exactly as untrue as saying it's the greatest

it's ridiculously easy to refute either proposition, and both discussions are equally pointless.

[Fedja]

252. True, but...

with masses of drones yelling it's the greatest, sometimes someone saying it sucks is needed to poke people into considering other options. Revolutions are extreme and often demolish before they rebuild, but sometimes that's exactly what's needed to shake up the "mainstream".

[Steerpike]

115. No America does not suck.

I alone redeem all the faults (sarcasm). To me America is not the Political Institutions, or for that matter the foibles of it's people. America is the land of my ancestors, and the land is beautiful. And long after the dream of the United States blows away in the dust, America, the land, will still live on in it's beauty.

[notundecided]

119. Ah yes, the American Land

No country in the world has the public lands that America has.

[Snarkturian Clone]

117. Look, America definitely needs some work

but it doesn't suck. There's LOTS of places in the world that are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY worse.

Our freedoms ARE being chipped away at one at a time but I can still walk down the street and say "there is no god" to people without being executed.

[notundecided]

118. We have met the enemy, and he is us

[BrklynLiberal]

121. I searched for, and found that POGO strip...and printed it out. It is hanging next to my desk.

http://www.igopogo.com/we_have_met.htm

[Moochy]

144. Or at least he is masquerading as us

and posting examples of his endeavors on Conservative Subterranean sites.

[BrklynLiberal]

120. The truth hurts. And - Denial is more than just a river in Egypt.

[Deep13]

122. Perhaps a vacation in Bangladesh or Kenya would change your mind. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

173. ...

:thumbsup: What's that quote, "There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be fixed by what is right with America."

[Solon]

178. Its actually quite condemning of the nation if the only way to make us look good is to compare us...

to an impoverished nation, usually a victim of ours or someone else's foreign policy. Why not tell him to take a vacation to Western Europe or Canada, and say that may change his mind?

[hunter]

189. Or some of the neighborhoods in my city...

Ooops. That can't be right. I live in the United States.

:eyes:

[shenmue]

212. Thank you!

:applause:

Zing!

[baby_mouse]

243. Might set it in place, of course...NT

[Brewman_Jax]

123. J. Paul Getty understood that, also

in his book How To Be Rich, he acknowledges the fact that he got his money the old-fashioned way--he inherited it. Nonetheless, he understood that, as a businessman, he had a responsibility to his employees and the public, in addition to his investors and shareholders.

[Echo In Light]

125. It's not the "country" per se, but what people are conditioned/indoctrinated with/into

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

127. I Think We Have Flaws, But Overall We're A Great Country With Great People.

Now granted, I think our government and its policies most definitely suck. But our country is far more than them alone.

As it relates to personal freedoms, opportunities, charitable nature, environmental beauty, diversity, strength, resilience, landmarks, civil rights and overall quality of life, America is very good.

Sure, there are many things one can point to that are wrong here, but elsewhere in the world most of those things can be found equally or even worse. But overall, as a country, we're a pretty good place to live.

[Echo In Light]

130. And there are numerous possibilities/potential for activism/civil disobedience here!

Now if more just took advantage of it...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

131. Absolutely.

[SteppingRazor]

128. My only retort:

"Henry Ford was dragged kicking and screaming into the realization that it was not a good thing to shit where he ate."

Who dragged him?


"The barons were given a choice, either strive to make life better in general for the masses of people, or continue to shit where they ate and be forced to change their ways."

Who gave them a choice?


In both cases, the answer is we, the people, especially through reformist and progressive movements at the turn of the last century. America sucks? Nah. You can point to all its flaws, but it's people are generally good. And that makes the country itself, which is of course only a representation of its people, good.

I won't try to deny the nastier points of our external history, but what you present is certainly a grossly one-sided picture. When you also consider all of the democracies we've also propped up, and some of the truly evil dictatorships that we have brought down, you get a more well-rounded view.

America is not evil. That would mean Americans, by and large, are evil. We are not.

[Cronopio]

169. Agreed that America isn't 100% evil.

But it was the Nazi Party that defined Germany in the 1940s, not the White Rose Society. While we have the ability to express dissent against the government, the means for *effective* dissent have been almost completely dismantled.

Dissent, in and of itself, doesn't make for a healthy society. The dominant interests will always let you dissent before showing you that your dissent is easily marginalized.

That's the way dissent is turned into propaganda. Dissenters are always necessary in an effective fascist state.

This isn't an argument against dissent - which I believe is a necessary first step to positive systemic change. Its an argument against the idea that just because we aren't immediately hauled off to prison for saying "The President is an asshat." that we're automatically freer to effectively change the power structure than a dissenter in Burma.

More comfortable and richer and more useful, yes. The freedom to change the power structure is more fundamental than freedom of speech.

EDIT: Also, Henry Ford wasn't motivated by the working-class proletariat to pay his assembly line workers twice the going rate. He just had some basic sense that is missing in today's corporate management. He was building a market, not exploiting one, and didn't have the luxury of the mainstream delusions of modern management.

[MasonJar]

133. And worst of all, we have never been more officious than we are today.

[Enrique]

134. there is little truth in this way of thinking

I find discussing this as frustratingly pointless as it is discussing with people who believe America is the greatest country.

This type of thinking detracts from progressive efforts, imo.

[sinkingfeeling]

135. Actions taken in our name, suck. And I find it very sad that so many Americans never think about

what their country has done and is doing to people far removed from these shores. Part of the blame falls on the constant propaganda stream that runs through our 'education' system and the media. I blame most on our inability to empathize with the plight of others because we have been 'safe' from the same things occurring in our own lives. How many think what living through daily bombings and gun battles? What about having your door broken down at 2AM and your husband/son/brother/father dragged away with a hood over his head?

It's 40 years since Viet Nam, how many have thought about how the 'American War' impacted the Vietnamese? If any would like to know, read this: "Two Men, Two Legs, and Too Much Suffering: America's Forgotten Vietnamese Victims" http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/012508P.shtml

[Auggie]

136. America doesn't suck. Just Americans.

We allow this to happen. Until EVERYBODY votes and takes an active, educated interest in government we will continue to shit where we eat.

[Political Heretic]

139. Things are going to get a lot worse before that happens

[Auggie]

165. I agree.

[deaniac21]

141. I have a very rich neighbor who forces me to be his

ottoman. How do they do it?

[notundecided]

142. Is America an abstraction?

"America Sucks" really says Americans suck. I think you should modify
your subject line to reflect that.

[Richard Steele]

152. K&R

[baby_mouse]

155. Oh, but what about PARAGUAY? and and and THE PLANET KRYPTON? HM?

what about NICARAGUA, what about DUMBFUCKISTAN? What about the ANCIENT AZTECS what about, etc...

[Marrah_G]

159. I don't think America sucks-

[Downtown Hound]

160. The crowning achievement of America

in my opinion was the creation of a strong middle class in the 50's. That is really what made America America. That idea that anybody could earn a decent living. That has slowly been eaten away at by the wealthy and now it is in serious jeopardy. IF the middle class goes, then we are truly fucked.

[NuttyFluffers]

161. having traveled in very rich and very poor nations, oppressive and free, i'll agree with you.

i've lived in '3rd world hellholes' and '1st world liberal paradises' and traveled extensively across america as well.

been there, done that, and i can say america is very much not living up to its potential.

outside of my love for urban america, and our beautiful land, and our thugalicious populace, america is very much an unpleasant country. exciting, vibrant, mindblowing, but on the whole all that stuff gets old and you just wanna relax, not worry so much, and have fun, y'know? the poverty of rural america is mind blowing. the poverty of urban america is mind blowing. the conspicuous consumption of american pleasure playgrounds is mind blowing. america is just a study in extremes (or should i say Xtremes?).


it all got old ages ago, and it doesn't seem like it's gonna change anytime soon to avert the fall. oh well, might as well enjoy the ride. but it's very true, there's been far better places i've visited in the world for various governmental, economic, and social reasons. as a whole, and america must be taken as a whole, not some sort of land of pocket party paradises, america really just isn't all that. doing the same with other countries leaves me that other countries really got their shit together.

the only places i've found that contest this are my beloved SF Bay Area, Hawaii, and a few minor pockets elsewhere in the USA -- which incidentally are so damn good that they completely overshadow my lovely experiences in many other international cities and paradises. and that's w/o the mass transit, free healthcare, etc. i can say with full confidence that if we could focus on mass transit, business regulation, free healthcare, etc. to the equivalence or better of the rest of the modern world these locales would easily surpass the wildest dreams of anything the rest of the world has to offer. having been to 'the rest of the world' i don't say this lightly.

we could still be that shining beacon on the hill, if we still want it...

[DutchLiberal]

163. Unfortunately for you, your excellent post attracked a swarm of right-wing freepers.

[MrScorpio]

202. So true

But when they steadfastly refuse to see the problem and decline to make a change, they pretty much confirm the level of suckage.

[spoony]

242. Weak. Truly weak.

Really, calling anyone who disagrees with you, particularly about such a divisive, silly commentary "freepers" is soooooo last year.

[DutchLiberal]

272. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

[L0oniX]

166. America ...the Great Satan. Bunch of liars and deceiving bastards.

900+ lies and growing every day.

[Iktomiwicasa]

167. For me....

Duhmerica sucks for different reasons. I have to witness daily the foreign occupation of my lands and the fact that my people have virtually no meaningful say in how things are run here.

[fascisthunter]

172. We Need to Change That

but you are right.... just don't give up trying to change what's wrong with and remind yourself of the positive things.

[BobbyVan]

175. Awesome post!

My feelings exactly

[Faryn Balyncd]

176. The robber barons, the slaveholders, and other villains have NO MORE CLAIM to OUR country than you..

The Tom Paines of this world have always had to fight the forces of darkness.

The forces of darkness thrive when their unjust claim to represent America is UNCHALLENGED.

Don't let the bastards wrap themselves in our flag and get away with it.

Our flag, and our nation, and our endangered liberties belong to the people.

To relinquish our rightful claim is counter-productive.




Yes, the usurpers of power suck.

But their claim to represent "America" is false.

If we let the bastards define the terms of discourse, their power is re-inforced.

[truedelphi]

179. I'd be happy if it was just top leaders that suck

But my experiences among the well to do while living in Marin really scorched any notion that I have had about how wonderful life is.
I have seen kids I grew up with inherit their parents' companies, declare bankruptcuy, deprive the workers of decades of pension monies, and meanwhile bail themselves out with a Golden Parachute.

And these people are Democrats. (Or call themselves that.)


I see the elite among the liberals wail and moan about the woman who spends 24 hours a day doing elder care, and who makes $ 48 for her trouble - after all she is from south of the border, and this is a travesty.

But if an American makes $ 20 more than that, that's their own tough luck.

And these people are Democrats.

I think of Cindy Sheehan who lost a son in Iraq, and is treated to her accounts of her experience with arrest warrants, and then I think of Dianne Feinstein, and her vote for the IWR, and the 27 million dollars her husband received in Iraq related contracts, and it makes me puzzled that we have allowed Feinstein to keep the D after her name.

I could go on, but it's rather depressing to do this.

[Chovexani]

182. But--but--we have Wal-Mart!

And American Idol! :sarcasm:

Spot on, brother. Spot on. :evilfrown:

[Ellen Forradalom]

183. "The illusion of freedom will continue

as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theatre." --Frank Zappa

Now I'd have voted for him in a heartbeat.

[Ellen Forradalom]

184. Mark Twain said much the same as you

in slightly different words.

"Extending the Blessings of Civilization to our Brother who Sits in Darkness has been a good trade and has paid well, on the whole; and there is money in it yet, if carefully worked -- but not enough, in my judgement, to make any considerable risk advisable. The People that Sit in Darkness are getting to be too scarce -- too scarce and too shy. And such darkness as is now left is really of but an indifferent quality, and not dark enough for the game. The most of those People that Sit in Darkness have been furnished with more light than was good for them or profitable for us. We have been injudicious."

More at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x175833

A very adviseable read.

[FATCATs]

191. I wonder if the Freepers

Have forwarded this to the MSM as another attempt to prove that DUers
“Hate America” ???:banghead:

[Kajsa]

197. Exactly!

Man, this is a feast for Freepers, the site that shall remain unnamed
and others!

I wonder if GW's wonderguys e-mailed this to HS?

:banghead:

[MrScorpio]

199. Let me make this very clear

And I elaborated this in my follow up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2765604&mesg_id=2765604

Their own reactions will determine if they think America really sucks or not.

Somehow, I'm not very optimistic about what those reactions would be

[Kajsa]

227. I understand, Mr. Scorpio,

and very much agree change is needed NOW.

What touched on a nerve was I consider myself and many others
here to be patriots, fighting to protect the Constitution and what it
stands for. It's been steadily torn apart bit by bit by the traitors in
power.

They inhabit the White House. (and Wall Street)

That's why the 'America Sucks' struck a nerve.

Some of our country's inhabitants are among the friendliest,
most helpful and selfless people I've ever met.

So no- it doesn't suck- but many of its leaders do.

The government and the people are not one, especially right now.

[Kajsa]

258. This is a great example of what

I'm talking about,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4192442&mesg_id=4206957


substitute the candidate of your choice.

[Kajsa]

195. America has its problems( lots of them),

and many who sit in power right now suck
like a Dirt Devil, but no,

as an entity, we're alright.

[Cleita]

203. I couldn't agree more.

We have been able to acheive our status as the biggest bully, er power on the planet because we had many, seemingly unlimited resources to exploit both within our continental boundaries as well as with imperial tactics in third world countries to exploit their resources. Now we seem to have reached the limits of what we can exploit nationally and the hens are coming home to roost. The rank and file American will suffer at the hands of the global money powers if we don't kick them off of our American continent and soon.

[Politicub]

205. America is far from perfect, but Bill Clinton said it best --

"There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured with what is right in America." - William J. Clinton

I have all kind of issues with America, but I do indeed love my country. And I especially love that anyone in the world - whatever nationality - can become an American.

And, I share the sentiment expressed in this quote, too:

"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."
-James Baldwin, Notes of a Native Son

And I do love the feeling of being a citizen of the planet, too.

[shenmue]

214. Yay!

Well said. :)

[shenmue]

211. Stop it. Not everybody in the U.S. is the same, and I damn sure don't support any dictators.

It's crap like this that gives young Democrats a bad name. This country has its problems, yes. But it doesn't suck worse than, say, the Sudan.

[MrScorpio]

215. There's plenty of blame to go around

http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/fdr%20and%20somoza-thumb-420x309.jpg

[baby_mouse]

249. There might be a bit less of it if there were also a bit less "RA RA RA USA!!!" crap.

... which, despite the amazing hideousness being perpetrated by *certain cretinous Americans* (which hideousness is by no means a uniquely American phenomenon, I hasten to add), is STILL being thrown about like a favourite blanket covered with toddler's saliva.

[McCamy Taylor]

217. Nothing that 100% voter turn out would not cure!

[MrScorpio]

218. Damn Skippy!

I once listened to Dr. Helen Caldicott make the same assertion.

Our basic problem in this country is apathy in our electoral process.

But, that's just the beginning, because the people who fight for change need to take it to the streets.

[Faryn Balyncd]

219. You sound like one of O'Reilly's caricatures . . . . .

[MrScorpio]

220. Well that scares me...

[baby_mouse]

248. That's okay by me. O'Reilly's a tit! If he fears the truth it's his problem. NT

[ironrooster]

222. HaHahahahahaha - every empire sucks -

no matter what because of the power/wealth aggregation & all that goes with it. If the British had kept America w/all of its resources - we would be saying this "country bloody well sucks". If the Spanish had managed to habg on... well you get the point. You can say what you want about the US, but don't paint Europeans as saints - they just haven't had the extraordinary chances to f**k things up in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

[Elidor]

225. Right fucking on, man.

That is powerful truth.

[Geek_Girl]

231. The Reason why America sucks is because

50% of our citizens are apathetic losers
30% are stupid to the extreme
and the rest of us are basically screwed

Otherwise we have a wonderful country.

[0007]

250. Indeed!! No doubt about it!

[clarence swinney]

253. AWESOME DETAILS

THANKS

[clarence swinney]

257. GORBY CHANGED SOVIET UNION

Military spending did not increase in Reagan first term.

Gorby cut it in second term

Perestroika and Glasnost did it.

A major study on decline by top historians in Russia and Reagan was not mentioned.

The decline was gradual over decades.

Gorby put the nail in the lid.

[LucyParsons]

279. Duh.

I lived in the UK for four years. This is not the "greatest country in the world", whatever that means.

Most Americans are ignorant of a great many things. The thing that makes us different in this respect from other peoples around the world is that we are often willfully ignorant. And proud of it. Add in a healthy dose of misplaced machismo and a history of religious zealotry, and, there you go.

[yoyossarian]

286. I agree with much of what you say...

...and found the discussion on "us" vs "they" especially stimulating and thoughtful, because I really have a problem when people say "WE" set up and supported repressive right-wing govts in many foreign lands, f'rinstance...
I can't argue with those facts... but in many cases, I was not even born when these things happened; and as for those which did occur on my "watch", well, I did all I could to oppose them... but my voice really doesn't carry very far in these sirocco winds, I'm afraid; mostly all I COULD do was to watch, in horror, as this shit went down... and now, in these last 8 years especially, watching our current leaders remake the landscape of my country into something more and more resembling the land of Mordor... I'm not sure we should call ourselves America anymore; we've been bought and sold, and are now under wholly new management...

Some of us do very little simply because the powers that be keep us constantly struggling to tread water...

Others lack a good well-rounded education, including, apparently, the basic critical- and rational-thinking faculties necessary to properly evaluate our own history, even when accurate information is available...

And many of us are, like our fearless leaders, simply too drunk on power and sex and drugs and status and happy self-delusion to care much about the lives of our distant cousins in faraway lands... the trade-off seems inevitable, sadly unavoidable when you live in Cloud City...

If America DOES suck lately (and it is certainly arguable that she does indeed), it is because she's sloppy-drunk on power, and all the lovely illusions that arise from it...

I'd LIKE to say, "That's not the America I know. She's better than that... she's just going through a phase right now, give her time and she'll get her act together, she always does..."

But at this point, I'd have to agree that we've gone 'WAY beyond the pale... no longer simply rude or stupid or graceless as many drunks can be, we have, under the present misadministration, moved into an area where our insane behavior is frightening the rest of the world on a daily basis, and this is not at all paranoia on their part; we have demonstrated again and again that we are not simply a mean and abusive drunk, but a full-blown paranoid-delusional one given to homicidal blackouts on a regular basis.



I don't know the answer. Nothing I've said or done or published in the last 20 years has made any difference, from where I'm sitting.

I wish what you said was true. I wish America truly was simply sucky, rather than psychotic.






T-shirts, mugs, buttons n' cards at http://cafepress.com/laughcity">Laugh City

http://steponnopets.com/peo">President Evil Online has risen from the grave!

[Name removed]

289. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[timtom]

294. Excellent analysis!

(In reading many of the responses, however, I have to ask, "Who the hell ARE these people???" How old are they? 12?)