What is WRONG with people here? You're GLAD because someone killed themselves??

[lildreamer316]

I know we went through some of this when Fallwell died..I wasn't too comfy with it then either.

Are you all who are glad that a mortgage broker killed his wife and himself, leaving two sons behind, members of the PEACE and LOVE generation??? Boy, I hope not.'Cause if you are, I don't want to hear a thing else out of you about how great you were then. You just ruined it all, right there.

Nice. Why don't we all just become EXACTLY like those we work against - heartless, cold and calculating people on the fundamentalist right, who espouse one thing in person (at church, even) and do another somewhere that they have no face...like a message board.

Way to be like the enemy. We're supposed to be the party that has compassion and empathy.

I know we are angry. I'm livid about the corporatists and the elite eating this country, and some of us, alive. It's beyond my comprehension some days, and I retreat into whatever fantasy land I can conjure until I am ready to face it again. But this is too much. We as a human race did not fight and strive so hard to further our civilization, only to still behave the same way we did even 60 years ago.

It's time to grow up. That means compassion, not cruelty. That means understanding, not obsequiousness. Take some time to reflect, to simplify, to appreciate what you do have, versus what you lack, or what has been taken from you. It is, after all, all you have left. Might as well appreciate it, now, while you can.

If someone whom we do not like is in so much pain OR is so very selfish as to take the extreme action to kill themselves, I would hope we would try to empathize, or at the very least try to NOT JUDGE.

YOU did not live in that person's body and mind. YOU did not walk in their shoes every day from the day they were born. YOU have absolutely no muthafuckin' idea what went on in their childhood, in their home, in their mind. Do you honestly think someone could really understand everything that has made YOU who you are, without actually being you?

Sure, they probably do not deserve your sympathy if they were so selfish as to commit suicide because of some issue like "Oh no! I'm going to be held responsible for those millions I squandered/used for ill/whathaveyou!!I'm going to avoid it using DEATH!!". But you sure as hell don't have to GLOAT about it.

Sometimes the old adage applies: If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

This kind of thing does not qualify as constructive criticism or discussion, in my book.

But hey, what the hell do I know? I'm just a gen-Xer with parents born in the depression (NOT the 50s, like all my peers - the 30s!), so I must have no CLUE what the hell I am talking about.:sarcasm:

Don't think outside the box. LOOK outside of it.

Post to which this refers:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3147022&mesg_id=3147022

[The Straight Story]

1. K&R(nt)

[Mythsaje]

2. I didn't even weigh in on that one...

and I'm not planning on it.

[lildreamer316]

18. I probably

should not have (here) but I...have just had my fill.
I'll be in my meditation space for QUITE awhile this evening.

[TwilightZone]

3. Pretty progressive, eh?

[aquart]

7. Define "progressive."

Is it a synonmym for "saintly"?

[TwilightZone]

15. I had hoped that it meant seeing people as more than labels.

Guess not. Everyone in the mortgage industry deserves to die, and everyone around them deserves to have their lives destroyed.

[mondo joe]

28. I don't know of a definition of Progressive I's use that would include glee that someone

committed suicide just because of his income or profession.

[LanternWaste]

128. I imagine part and parcel of the definition of the word

I imagine part and parcel of the definition of the word 'Progressive' consists of concepts such as empathy, sympathy and tolerance...

[Kajsa]

129. Ah-no, that wasn't implied anywhere,

was it?

I do know this, progressive doesn't mean
kicking someone who is hurting and gloating
over their death.

[dkf]

4. Sometimes I wonder.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. I care as much about that guy as he would no doubt care about me.

Or how much he cared about his wife for that matter.

[onenote]

111. interesting take on the golden rule.

[comradebillyboy]

6. DU is not the home of compassionate

liberalism. The tone here has gotten much uglier over the past couple of years. Sometimes even the mild mannered old boomer, Comradebillyboy, is provoked to a remarkable level of incivility nowadays.

[mzmolly]

68. I'm wondering if we're getting Republican "converts?"

Yikes!

[ursi]

8. K & R!

the sad part is we are going to probably see more tragedies like this and gloating over it is just wrong. These are the signs of our times.

[Elspeth]

9. He should have killed himself BEFORE killing his wife.

The male who kills his wife or children in some fit of pique deserves to be vilified.

[Rosemary2205]

10. Wouldn't this have more impact in THAT thread?

Seems like the people you are directing this to are over in Latest Breaking News, not in GD.

:shrug:

[Chovexani]

11. You know, I'm a misanthropic b****

And danced gleefully on Foulwell's grave, but that thread was beyond the pale even for me.

This place has gotten vile.

[lildreamer316]

16. I can understand..

about Fallwell a bit more than this, too...for reasons it would take me far too long to explain (which is why I did not in the OP), but that I know you already understand.

I probably should have followed my own advice and kept my mouth shut, but oh well.

[Midlodemocrat]

21. He was rich, therefore, reviled on DU.

A+B=C

[sojourner]

26. a little truth to that...but there's a lot of blaming and villification going round here --

way 'nuff to go around. i feel for anyone who thinks that jumping off a bridge is an answer...we all need to display more compassion and maybe when the shit hits the fan those who put their hopes in $$ (or other sources of "power") will realize that there is more to life when they see it in us.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

12. Outstanding post...K&R

[Midlodemocrat]

13. K & R. - Outstanding post, girlfriend.

[Bishop Rook]

14. Bump

I hate grave-dancing.

[DeepModem Mom]

17. K&R

[CreekDog]

19. Thank you for the moral grounding, you are spot-on

[aquart]

20. He killed himself.

But he wasn't satisfied with that. So he killed his wife, too. First.

A murderer killed himself.

He was quite happy while he was making money but now he was sad because he wasn't. The way he made money is part of the greed burst that is ruining lives across the country.

For those of us who feel completely helpless that ANYONE will pay for this, we had one moment of feeling in control. One moment of feeling JUSTICE: cold. cruel. honest. JUSTICE.

But you would prefer that we be hypocrites. Because it's polite.

My sympathy for men who kill women is exactly zero. But you'd be more comfortable if I didn't say so.

I'd be more comfortable if killing women wasn't so easy. So I'll say what I damn please.

[U4ikLefty]

29. Hear hear!!!

:applause:

[Guaranteed]

40. That point of view is just hateful, nasty and sick.

That's all it is. And your use of that precious word "justice" is WAY off.

[Esra Star]

46. Calling a spade a spade.

"For those of us who feel completely helpless that ANYONE will pay for this, we had one moment of feeling in control. One moment of feeling JUSTICE: cold. cruel. honest. JUSTICE"


Try not to confuse revenge with justice.

[malaise]

48. Ditto n/t

[hippywife]

51. Not a preference to be hypocritical but

a preference to show some kind of passion and humanity. Not to be polite but because it's the right thing to do.

He was quite happy while he was making money but now he was sad because he wasn't.

Really? How do you know that? Did he consult you before he acted? He may have felt a great deal of remorse, not for just his personal situation, but for the suffering of the others caught up in this.

Another poster commented that the article stated that he acted because of personal issues in their relationship. Doesn't change the fact that this was very tragic.

You can say whatever you want but I pity you your lack of sensitivity. No one wears that well. No one.

[TheWatcher]

65. Of course you will.

But I hope you won't get upset if we can't quite understand what you are talking about.

I mean, after all, it's quite difficult to make out a coherent sentence or thought when someone constantly blathers with both feet in their mouth.

I will just safely assume it's your usual plethora of nasty bile and call it a day.

With you, that's usually as dependable as the sunrise.

Now that your blood lust for vengeance, any vengeance will do, has been satisfied, hopefully you'll get back to bashing anyone who isn't properly worshiping the Goddess Of Inevitability.

[BoneDaddy]

107. What about men who kill men?

does your compassion reach that far? or are only women vulnerable, unable to defend themselves or are at a disadvantage? Men kill men more than they kill women.

[Kajsa]

143. You don't know anything about me.

So please refrain from calling me a hypocrite when your insight into
my feelings is nil.

Stop assuming you know or speak for anyone else, here.

You speak for yourself, and what I've heard from you is bad enough.

[thunder rising]

22. PEACE and LOVE generation ... that's been gone

Who know why he would kill his wife before killing himself; it's a lifestyle I am not privy to.

[Writer]

57. The PEACE and LOVE generation has been absent ever since that...

particular generation reached its 30's, started having children and driving Volvo's.

[comradebillyboy]

23. While I generally agree with your point

I have to admit that I do take delight in the suffering of some folks that I just don't like for one reason or another. The Germans have a word for it:schadenfreude n. Pleasure derived from the misfortunes of others.

[DemBones DemBones]

24. I agree with you except that you

thought it was a good idea to assume that the people who posted in that thread are Boomers. I've noticed a lot of unnecessary nastiness directed at Boomers lately, and it is no better than nastiness directed at mortgage brokers or Jerry Falwell.

You wrote:

"Are you all who are glad that a mortgage broker killed his wife and himself, leaving two sons behind, members of the PEACE and LOVE generation??? Boy, I hope not.'Cause if you are, I don't want to hear a thing else out of you about how great you were then. You just ruined it all, right there."

and you also wanted everyone to know that not only are you not a Boomer, neither are your parents:

"But hey, what the hell do I know? I'm just a gen-Xer with parents born in the depression (NOT the 50s, like all my peers - the 30s!), so I must have no CLUE what the hell I am talking about."

Maybe you're jealous because you think it would have been more fun to be young in the Sixties? You should think about Viet Nam and how it impacted those of us who were young in the Sixties, along with the assassinations of JFK, MLK, RFK. Life is never perfect for any generation.

If you're unhappy about being a Gen-Xer, you can only blame your parents for when you were born. We Boomers aren't responsible for when we were born, either, nor are we as individuals responsible for other individuals who said or say or will say in the future that our generation was great.

[lildreamer316]

34. Now, I feel that

there is just as much bashing of my generation as there is the Boomer one. But, it is always possible that I've been missing posts.

I did not feel that I assumed that everyone who replied was Boomer. That is why I put that in the form of a question. I was just pointing out that I hope some who replied were NOT those who say they were part of that movement, and who claim to hold onto those ideals still. That generation seems to be a majority at DU,and if I am not mistaken, un-scientific polls posted at various times here and in the Lounge would seem to support that hypothosis (again, admittedly very un-scientifically). Therefore, I did not feel it was completely outside the realm of possibility that some who were of that generation might actually have posted in that thread. But I do not know that for any sort of fact, so I did not assume. I questioned.

Where did I say I was unhappy about being a gen-Xer? Nothing could be further from the truth. My point there was that many people seem to think I am still to young to have experienced enough of relevant political history to understand the angst and rage that is currently abundant. A bit of a personal thing, there. But I am human too.

I honestly feel the Boom generation is great. So was the WWII "Greatest". It showed that unity was possible for a progressive cause. I hope such a time comes again, and soon. But I don't go around talking about the accomplishments, or lack thereof, of my generation...so at least I won't have to serve as an example of how true or untrue my words are, later. All the chapters are still to be written - for all generations.

[mondo joe]

25. I agree. And I think Falwell was different.

Not because Falwell himself was different but because the circumstances were. Death comes to everyone, and Falwell's looked like an easy one. It seems to me one thing to be glad someone finally died, but another to be glad that they have some lingering painful disease or other misfortune.

This falls into the latter.

[lildreamer316]

37. I agree..

but I feel so for different reasons.

Fallwell was a person who thought of himself as a spiritual leader; someone who believed, and therefore was a living example, of what anyone who is striving to be a better/more spiritual person wants to be. Therefore, when he did and said things that were so very, very incongruous to his proscribed (and his highest 'law'; the Bible) way of being, it struck a deeper anger chord with almost anyone who was paying attention,than someone who is corrupt in a 'worldly' way...such as this mortgage broker.

This is why I can understand a bit better about Fallwell. I didn't like it, but I believe we, collectively, felt he should have known better. Because he said he did, ya know? He said he was better than that, that he was better than people who didn't have morals.

Bottom line: we are able to deal with being screwed over financially a whole lot better than spiritually. That's still on the horizon to overcome, and I understand that clearly.

[mondo joe]

39. Were you around when climbers were lost in snow storms? That's when some really evil shit

was going around DU.

[lildreamer316]

44. Aw man, I had conveniently blocked that out.

Yep that was some really bad crap. <shivers>
Wasn't that last winter?

[mondo joe]

50. Actually, I think it's a recurring phenomenon - I recall more than one instance.

:-(

[iamthebandfanman]

27. yeah, pretty stupid

nobody should celebrate anyones death (altho i personally see death as a release to another existence and therefor a good thing)*shrugs*
and hey, if u wanna.... at least keep it to urself ;)

[Common Sense Party]

30. The one who hoped the guy "bounced" also said he/she hopes

the stock market crashes and wipes out people's retirement savings, on another thread last week.

Something's not quite right.

[mondo joe]

31. Some people have put their strong desire for change above any concern for real

people.

[Yuugal]

47. Actually its the other way around

This year, many of us poor people are going to put ourselves first and stop voting for the same brand of corporate turd who preach about change every 4 years and then hurt us some more.

If you have a good job and are doing well, by all means vote whatever issue is most important to you. My issue is having enough money to simultaneously put food on the table, pay the rent, and still have enough to heat the house. Even Huckleberry and Mitt talk more about ending "free-trade" and creating jobs than Hillary or Obama do. Have we moved far enough right as a party yet?

I assure you I am quite real and I vote too. I'm just invisible to the front runners.

[mondo joe]

49. To the contrary: If the sor of economic upheaval you desire occurs, it will be ordinary

and poor people who will suffer most grievously.

It is ever thus. For every symbolic Marie Antoinette, there are thousands of people who never had much who end up with even less.

[Yuugal]

54. I'd rather have a few tough years

than the slow death of the thousand dlc cuts. I'd like my kids to be able to grow up in a different world and thats not going to happen if we keep pumping the same failed consumption economy. Endless growth is flawed because the earth is not endless.

[mondo joe]

55. Nice of you to sell out the little that so many others have scraped together for their

families and themselves to satisfy your desires.

[Yuugal]

61. I did that?

Wow. Thanks for calling me a sell out. Its a little kinder than being given lectures on the wonders of the free market, my "class envy", my need "to pull myself up by my own bootstraps", and all the other fun things poor disabled people like myself get to hear. Not just on the street, but right here on DU.

[scarletwoman]

67. There is no war but the class war. Not many DUers want to hear that.

Try advocating that DUers stop using credit cards -- oh, the howls of outrage! Advocate something that might threaten their 401Ks? Immoral! Heartless!

It's long been a source of amazement to me, how so many people ostensibly advocating for "change", can be so resistant to any proposals that actually WOULD effect bigtime change.

Advocating change on the rhetorical level is all well and good, as long as no one has to actually give up any of their comforts, or stop buying into the economic system that exploits them.

sw

[mondo joe]

77. Why would people who are lower and middle income want to lose what they have

earned?

There are always a few Robespierre's who want bloody revolution and to remake the system from scratch. But that's not what most people want, and with good reason.

[Yuugal]

82. Break out the national razor!

Off with their goddammed heads! Guess thats me. I don't really want to off their heads though, but I hope they like King Yuugal's new rules:

90% tax rate for those over a million a year.
90% tax on any inheritance over a million
no exec will ever make more than 40x the lowest employee's salary
stock options as pay - illegal
nationalization of all energy concerns
All trade agreements canceled- 600 billion a yr trade deficit is enough for me
new WPA guaranteeing full employment to all who want to work with training provided
public school now includes college
any American caught sending jobs oversees and weakening America will be tried for treason
living wage based on real prices
free health care for all
U.S. armed forces recalled home from around the world
military pay increased to match congress's pay
Outlaw production of fossil fueled cars in 5 years
secure the border with returning troops
nationalize all current residents
restoration of Aid for Families with Dependant Children act with no slavefare provisions.
establish rights to food, housing, energy, a job, and privacy

It might sound a little socialist but I think business would do alot better without the healthcare burden. I'd be happy to work with big business on issues like producing all the windmills, solar panels, high speed rail, and electric cars I'd want. I'd be willing to cut the corporate tax rate to zero for companies that create enough jobs here.

Take a company like Ford or GM that is on its last legs; I'd be happy to bail them out for those American electric cars made with American raw materials and American workers. I think the resulting economic boom from some common sense protectionism would pay for it all and the deficit too.

Ah well, I'm done dreaming, so its back to: OFF with their goddamned heads!

[scarletwoman]

86. Sounds like an excellent program! I'd vote for you for king in a minute! (nt)

[scarletwoman]

91. Why would slaves who have been provided food and shelter want to free themselves & face uncertainty?

Maybe they don't, right?

[mondo joe]

94. I don't think most people regard themselves as slaves.

And I don't think most people want upheaval of the entire society.

[scarletwoman]

98. Of course most people don't want upheaval. That's why they will consent to all sorts of indignities.

As long as THEY aren't the ones being totally rolled over and crushed by the system, why would they want to risk challenging it?

Perhaps in your world, all who don't "regard themselves as slaves" truly ARE free. I submit that this is not necessarily true, however. How many catastrophic medical bills are most people away from homelessness?

sw

[mondo joe]

99. There you have it. The problem elites who think they know better than the people

always run into: the people.

[scarletwoman]

101. Who are these elites you're talking about? I'm talking about the people who get screwed

by the system YOU'RE defending.

[mondo joe]

102. I don't think you know what you're talking about.

I grew up in the poorest area of a depressed city. I never had a meal in school that wasn't on the free lunch program, most of my extended family worked in menial labor or was on welfare. To this day I'm the only member of my extended family to go to college or hold a professional job.

I don't think you know a thing about poor people, the vast majority of whom don't want upheaval of the whole system. Overall the want a little more fairness and a chance to be okay and to have some decent security for their families.

[scarletwoman]

104. No, YOU don't know what I'm talking about. My first post in this string was about how people

cooperate with an economic system that oppresses them. I said nothing about "revolution", I was merely making an observation.

I grew up poor as well. Which is why I challenge the idea that there is no alternative but to acquiesce to an economic system that creates an underclass to begin with.

[personman]

125. "I don't think most people regard themselves as slaves."

True, and unfortunate. This reflects a profound lack of class consciousness.

"In fact, the period of the freest press in the United States was probably around the 1850s. In the 1850s, the scale of the popular press, meaning run by the factory girls in Lowell and so on, was on the scale of the commercial press or even greater. These were independent newspapers -- a lot of interesting scholarship on them, if you can read them now. They spontaneously, without any background. never heard of Marx or Bakunin or anyone else; they developed the same ideas. From their point of view, what they called "wage slavery," renting yourself to an owner, was not very different from the chattel slavery that they were fighting a civil war about. You have to recall that in the mid-nineteenth century, that was a common view in the United States -- for example, the position of the Republican Party, Abraham Lincoln's position. It's not an odd view, that there isn't much difference between selling yourself and renting yourself. So the idea of renting yourself, meaning working for wages, was degrading. It was an attack on your personal integrity. They despised the industrial system that was developing, that was destroying their culture, destroying their independence, their individuality, constraining them to be subordinate to masters.

There was a tradition of what was called Republicanism in the United States. We're free people, you know, the first free people in the world. This was destroying and undermining that freedom. This was the core of the labor movement all over, and included in it was the assumption, just taken for granted, that "those who work in the mills should own them." In fact, one of the their main slogans, I'll just quote it, was they condemned what they called the "new spirit of the age: gain wealth, forgetting all but self." That new spirit, that you should only be interested in gaining wealth and forgetting about your relations to other people, they regarded it as a violation of fundamental human nature, and a degrading idea.

That was a strong, rich American culture, which was crushed by violence. The United States has a very violent labor history, much more so than Europe. It was wiped out over a long period, with extreme violence. By the time it picked up again in the 1930s, that's when I personally came into the tail end of it. After the Second World War it was crushed. By now, it's forgotten. But it's very real. I don't really think it's forgotten, I think it's just below the surface in people's consciousness."

- Noam Chomsky, http://www.anarchismtoday.org/News/article/sid=89.html">Conversations with History: Activism, Anarchism, and Power (with video, audio and transcripts)

"And I don't think most people want upheaval of the entire society."

"Most people" don't politically or historically know their asshole from a hole in the ground. Though this is a free society, it is not entirely their fault; Our educational system, political system, and media are tools of indoctrination, and what Chomsky referred to as "imposed ignorance." This is clearly illustrated by the fact that many working class people have no understanding of their own interests. However, as the excerpt above shows, this wasn't always the case, and there is no reason to believe it must continue to be.

-personman

[mondo joe]

126. Again, this is why you people will always lose - your insistence on insulting the people

and telling us we're too ignorant to know what we want.

[personman]

133. Who is "you people?"

I think people who are more concerned with substance over aesthetics will have a bigger problem with BEING a wage-slave than with being called one. It's not about insulting people, it's about recognizing a form of oppression and taking steps to alleviate it. If you're happier in your cage calling them "freedom bars," that is your choice.

When you see the enormous lengths governments and media conglomerates have to go through to manipulate the people, including outright lies and fabrications, it's a testament to the inherent good nature of the common people that they constantly attempt to drive out of us. I don't see this as an insult. An insult would be to assign the blame for the current state of society to the unempowered masses. It would be an insult to say the war and death and economic policies killing hundreds of thousands of children around the world are what the people wanted. I don't believe that is true and I would think far less of humanity if I did. I think some powerful people want these things, and they want you to want these things, and some of you soak it up so well, you confuse it with your own interests.

-personman

"Education is a system of imposed ignorance."

"We're not analyzing the media on Mars or in the eighteenth century or something like that. We're dealing with real human beings who are suffering and dying and being tortured and starving because of policies that we are involved in, we as citizens of democratic societies are directly involved in and are responsible for, and what the media are doing is ensuring that we do not act on our responsibilities, and that the interests of power are served, not the needs of the suffering people, and not even the needs of the American people who would be horrified if they realized the blood that's dripping from their hands because of the way they are allowing themselves to be deluded and manipulated by the system."

"It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them."

- Noam Chomsky

[mondo joe]

136. Anyone who treats the people as infants who need to be told what's best for us.

[personman]

138. Sounds like your gripe is our political system then, not me.

That's a complete mischaracterization of what I wrote, but it is http://www.anarchismtoday.org/News/article/sid=56.html">"the prevailing conception of democracy," among the elite, inside and outside the party.

I never said the people need to be told anything...

On the contrary, I think history shows time and again that class-consciousness can and will develop spontaneously, unless it is suppressed, using methods that have ranged from propaganda, to imprisonment, to violence, and execution. If you are unfamiliar with labor history in the united states, the repression has been brutal.

If anything, that is the problem... people spending too much time listening to CNN or candidate X rather than thinking about or researching things for themselves. The idea isn't that anyone needs to be told anything, it's that they are already being told things constantly that aren't true or are opposed to their interests. The interests of the working class are, virtually by definition, not something the establishment will make an effort to bring in to your home or your head, unlike the patriotic flag waving rah rah, holy sacred capitalism bullshit that serves their purposes. You won't get them in school, or the Times, or from CNN, or from a politician.

Yet these ideas persist, "just below the surface." Nothing "infantile" about that... if anything, commendable, the sacrifices of life and limb that have been made.

[scarletwoman]

144. I just want to thank you for your outstanding post!

Your last paragraph alone is worth any hundred other posts on this thread:

"Most people" don't politically or historically know their asshole from a hole in the ground. Though this is a free society, it is not entirely their fault; Our educational system, political system, and media are tools of indoctrination, and what Chomsky referred to as "imposed ignorance." This is clearly illustrated by the fact that many working class people have no understanding of their own interests. However, as the excerpt above shows, this wasn't always the case, and there is no reason to believe it must continue to be.

It just amazes me, how vigorously people rush to deny that the current economic system is systematically oppressing them. It's a great pleasure to read what you've posted, my sincere thanks.

sw

[personman]

145. "Careful...you might encourage him..."

You're quite welcome! :) Thank you as well.

-personman

[Yuugal]

80. Thank you for that

I feel pretty lonely here. What these people don't understand is I used to be one of them. Then I got disabled in a job accident, my ex-wife lost her job to outsourcing, retrained, then lost that job to outsourcing also. We lost our house and our 401k because eating beats distant dreams of retirement. All the stress hurt our marriage.

I'd miss my ex, but shes in the next room since she had to move in with me and my gf in the place we now are renting to avoid starving. At times like that you think, welp it can't get much worse, but of course then my gf got her job "downsized" and now 3 adults and 2 kids are huddled together stretching my disability check. We of course don't qualify for any heating or food assistance because we are much too rich for that.

I spend alot of time here shilling for the working class/poor but in 3.5 yrs here I've noticed alot of dems just don't rate poverty issues very high. I don't mind being called bitter because that is what I am. I just don't understand how people with so much can expect me to care about their wealth when I have none.

Hillary is passing out H1-b visas to anyone who wants to take the last few good jobs here, and the same people whose jobs will be lost soon will regret their haughty words I think. Nafta is coming for their job next. Obama wants to play with social security and guarantee we starve. Wonderful.

[scarletwoman]

84. I've never been "one of them", so I don't have any investment in making justifications for the

continuance of an inherently corrupt system.

Does a slave fear the uncertainty of freedom more that he hates his enslavement? It would appear to be so.

Good luck and best wishes to you and yours. May your circumstances improve as soon as possible.

sw

[mondo joe]

72. Sure. You made quite clear that you're willing to let millions of people suffer

in order to get the rebellion you dream of. They're just collateral damage.

[Yuugal]

93. You've got a hillary icon

and have the nerve to talk about collateral damage? wow, just wow.

[mondo joe]

95. I don't expect politics to be the ideal.

Do you?

[Yuugal]

97. You can't get what you want

if you never even get a chance to vote for it. I want fresh water to drink. The reps are offering me a jar of corporate sewage. The democrats were afraid to be dems so they put a few cups of the sewage in their water to be more popular. I still want fresh water. Sorry to be an idealist.

[mondo joe]

100. You're pretty far out of touch with reality and ordinary people to offer advice.

Thanks anyway.

[Yuugal]

41. That would be me

Was that a bit strident of me? Let me put it this way. I find the wealth distribution in this country to be unfair. I know lowly serfs like me are not supposed to snicker when the Lord of the Manor falls off his horse and hits his head on a rock, but thats what serfs do.

I'm not rich enough to own stock, but the Lords of the Manor do. Once again, when they fall off their high horses into the shit, especially given their decades of uncaring as to the realities of my life, I tend not to get very teary.

[mondo joe]

42. A lot of ordinary people own stocks, through retirement plans if no other means.

Like the receptionist at work, and the custodian. Want their life saving depleted?

[Hekate]

112. Oh stop talking sense, Mondo Joe. I'm a former secretary whose pension is invested by the company...

Not that I'm all that old (yet) but it is the one and only place where my retirement was "vested" before I left, so that m'dears is my pension. And afaik it is in a mix of stocks, none of which I chose. A lot of places are like that -- at least I chose the part of the plan that is supposed to be secure, not risky.

Nonetheless, if the stock market tanks badly enough, so will my pension.

Former secretaries like me -- retired janitors lucky enough to have a pension -- so many lower level employees -- all potential casualties in the class war, comes the revolution.

Hekate

[scarletwoman]

52. "...but thats what serfs do." Indeed it is. But we're all supposed to be *above* class resentments.

Don't you know that?

My own opinion is that our country needs a hell of lot MORE class resentment, not less. If people aren't going to get good and pissed off about how they're being pissed ON, then there's absolutely NO hope of rescuing our republic.

I didn't see that thread until this OP pointed it out, and I probably wouldn't have posted on it in any case. But since your post in that thread was singled out for special opprobrium here, I just wanted to let you know that I get where you're coming from.

sw

[hippywife]

63. You have a very skewed view.

I, too, decry the distribution of the wealth in this country but there are a whole lot of people in between the lord and the serfs who will be hurt immeasurably if you had your way, through no fault of their own.

It doesn't take a rich person to own stock. All it takes is a little squirreling away in a 401K or similar type of account. There are many, many people who don't have much at all who use these vehicles; they sacrifice now, with their eyes on a future where they won't be able to work as hard, if at all, to have any kind of income to live on.

[FloridaJudy]

120. I'm damned lucky I had something similar

When I lost my job. It's what I've lived on for the past two years. I sacrificed a lot of luxuries to squirrel that money away, and did it for decades. If I hadn't, I'd be living under the proverbial bridge - all it took was an unexpected divorce, a health crisis and a downsizing to empty that account. Forget retirement: I'm going to have to work until the day I call in dead.

So I'm get a little nervous when I hear people proclaim that we need to do away with credit cards and savings accounts. It wouldn't just be an inconvenience for many folks: it would be a full-fledged catastrophe. Maybe we should do away with these things, but not before we have a safety net in place to catch people when they fall. Until then I don't blame anyone who tries to protect their own financial stability, since our Government doesn't seem to give a hoot.

[hippywife]

142. Don't get me wrong,

I think credit cards are the source of many of the problems people find themselves in. We choose not to used them except for a Lowe's card we are using to finish our house out. You know, no payments, no interest for a year. And we do manage to get it paid off reasonably quickly. But if someone can use them responsibly, I have no problem with them. We choose not to have them because of the really lousy care these companies exercise in protecting people's information, like selling it to people they shouldn't, losing data, or being hacked. They don't do their due diligence, so we don't trust them with our business.

That being said, some people have no business having credit cards. It took me forever to even get one when I was younger because I had no established credit history at the time. Now they hand them out like crazy and to folks who have never exhibited they are responsible enough to handle them because they (the credit companies) have built the better mouse trap. There needs to be some serious legislation to hold them responsible for being so lax so they can earn more money off of fees.

Anyway, you might want to nix the "living under the bridge" talk, the rabble around here might start accusing you of being a troll next! LOL :hi:

[Danger Mouse]

69. I make shit for wages, but I'm putting away bits and pieces in a 403b account

which is based on, yes, the stock market. I'm only 26, but I thought it'd be a good idea to start putting away what little I could towards an eventual retirement because god only knows what social security is going to look at down the road.
Stocks aren't exclusive to the rich, so your wish of harm upon me and other people in my situation is greeted with a hearty 'fuck off.'

[mondo joe]

76. Like a lot of people. I work with plenty of people on the low end of the income scale,

who have $ invested in 401k plans (actually 403b's). No one could confuse them with the rich.

[Danger Mouse]

92. Nothing gets in the way of people's prejudices I guess.

I would lose everything I've worked hard to tuck away. I guess that'd be just fine and dandy with him.

[mondo joe]

96. Whenever I see such posts I am reminded of the French revolution and The Horror.

Some people are just all too happy to sacrifice real people for their dreamed of Utopia.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

75. Well, If Ya Think A Stock Market Crash Would Only Affect The Rich, Then You're Amazingly Ignorant.

[Common Sense Party]

117. It's amazing -- the ignorance and envy people have of things they

know nothing about. Isn't it?

I meet with regular, working people every day whose retirement depends on the long-term health of not just the "stock market" but of the very corporations and capitalist system that are so often decried and vilified around here. I encourage them to invest more--for the LONG run, and that is what I am doing.

I wouldn't wish a market crash on anyone. I do instruct our plan participants to expect nasty bear markets from time to time, but to look at them as good buying opportunities...provided they have MANY years to go until they retire, and can bounce back from any market downturn.

[BlueIris]

119. OMC!

Nice to see you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. Most people in this country depend on investments for retirement.

Rich and poor alike.

[LanternWaste]

134. I'm most likely much more poor than you...

I'm most likely much more poor than you, so I find it just a little.... odd that you've allowed yourself to be defined as a serf rather than asserting your role as an individual in the larger community.

I'd never berate anyone for giggling due to the death of one or another individual-- I've come to expect exceptionally bad form, ill manners, and a most common lack of civility from all income brackets.

[TreasonousBastard]

32. Yup-- here's a tragedy in a family no one has...

heard of before and knows nothing about. But, simply because he worked for a mortgage company he's the Great Satan and people are dancing on his grave.

Disgusting.

[Dawggie]

33. K&R... And I was awed by the number of folks who felt death was a proper punishment

for taunting a tiger.

[barbtries]

35. i checked out the thread

and i clicked on the link: "Prosecutor Robert Bernardi said the note also revealed that the motive for the slaying was "based upon the personal relationship of the couple," not the family's economic situation. Bernardi declined further comment."

though i didn't read through the whole thread, from what i did read, it appeared that nobody responding to the story had taken the time to read the story.

it is a tragedy. and we don't know why it happened now, and may never know. my heart goes out to the children.

[karlrschneider]

36. I never speak ill of the dead. Even when they were assholes.

:P

[Guaranteed]

38. Yup- just because you're at DU it doesn't mean you won't see horrible people.

Cuz it ain't about beliefs. Beliefs don't make people good.

[FloridaJudy]

43. Some of the responses there were fairly sick-making

One in particular. But there were also more than a few that expressed some dismay at the news.

We're a mixed bag.

[AZBlue]

45. The level of hate and stupidity around here lately is deporable.

And it really can't be blamed on the primaries.

K&R

[Writer]

53. At it has been established elsewhere on DU...

apparently it's okay to truly hate, with complete enmity, those people with whom you disagree.

All the way to their dying breath.

Fuck that attitude.

~Writer, with her middle finger extended~

[flashl]

56. K&R n/t

[Dawggie]

58. Great Rant! Thanks!

[WillowTree]

59. Damn!!

I wish I'd said that.

Nice to see some genuine compassion and "there but for the grace of God" thinking around here. You're what I always thought liberalism was supposed to be about, lildreamer, but lately reading around here, I barely recognize the Party anymore.

You're an asset to the site, IMO. Kudos to you.

[lildreamer316]

108. Thank you.

I don't like to get into it often. I prefer to read and learn, as much as possible with an open mind. But sometimes you just gotta say what you gotta say.

[Xenotime]

60. YOu don't understand. This guy didn't give a shit about anybody when he was alive.

How about all those suffering people he leaves behind because of his fucked up actions?

[Danger Mouse]

70. So it's okay to be just like him?

[Mutineer]

62. There is a lot of anger, a lot of frustration

here and a lot of it is very misplaced.

[hippywife]

64. Apparently, it would be really too much to ask

if people would stop and consider how they would feel if these people were someone they knew and loved before opening their mouths with their flip and mean comments. No one in our world, or even in our closest circles are perfect. Every family has it's problems.

There are many, many more people who are going to be terribly hurt before this whole sub-prime wave finally ebbs.

[laylah]

66. This is one awesome

rant and all I have to offer is a TYVM and :hug: Thanks for posting what I, and many, was thinking. Suicide, no matter WHAT the reason, is a sad, sad thing.

[Danger Mouse]

71. More vile hateful shit...

grave dancing sickens me.
We're liberals and progressives, we SHOULD be better than this. It saddens me when we're not.

[Sugar Smack]

73. WHOA.

I can be kind of mean-spirited sometimes, but GOD.:wow: Wow.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. Well, It Only Seems To Be Only A Small Handful Of Childish Ignorant Assholes, Thankfully.

At least it isn't nearly as widespread as the disgusting Falwell threads. I agree with you though that in this case, it takes a pretty special ignorant asshole to post such stupidity.

[seabeyond]

79. sing it brother/sistah.....

i dont know what death you are talking about, BUT.... what you say goes about everytime there is a death to "celebrate".

i am so with you and beyond.

thanks

[dajoki]

81. You are correct...

To me there is no joy in a sad story like this. We proudly propose to be Dems, liberal, compassionate, but feeling some kind of satisfaction from the horrible death of two human beings goes against everything we are supposed to believe in.

This makes us no better than the people we oppose, as a matter of fact, it makes us worse because of the hypocrisy. These types of feelings are expected from the other side, but not from us. Lately I have been reading similar sentiments about people who have lost jobs, healthcare, etc., where the posters are just assuming they are Repubs or vote against there own interests. Don't get me wrong, I completely despise what the other side has done to our country and the world and we must continue to fight them on it to the bitter end, but taking joy out of a person's or family's hardships is the last thing I could imagine.

I know from where I speak, because without going into detail, my family and I are in the struggle of our lives right now and it is no joke. I expect to be ridiculed by right wingers and the like, but not from our own. Especially by someone who contrives false assumptions without knowing a thing about you. Well I'll end my rant now because I'm starting to get off point, but I think you can understand my position.

[lildreamer316]

109. ....

:hug:
I am sorry you are having such a hard time.

[dajoki]

116. Thank you...

I really do appreciate that.:hi:

[jasmine621]

83. Shows you who is hanging around this place. nt

[davidinalameda]

85. why are you so surprised

you have some posters on here that would give freepers a run for their money in the lack of compassion department

[Djinn]

87. sorry

but thankfully NOT a member of the peace and love generation (AKA the ones who became yuppies shortly after the last batch of patchouli incense went out)

I'm surprised there have been "yay someone killed themself" posts here but comparing it to the death of someone like Falwell??

I was happy when that shit died and I'm not gonna feel guilty about it because someone hasn't realised it's not 1968 anymore

[Snarkoleptic]

88. I view the ugliness as pavlovian conditioning by the media.

Mortgage people are bad, ergo, their demise is good.
The subprime mortgage market was not staffed with immoral vampires.

If you're looking to blame someone for the current spike in foreclosures and the present liquidity crisis, I suggest you look at-
The Federal Reserve...for loose monetary policy (in hopes of having the housing sector spur the economy)
Wall Street...for their greed in greenlighting a mindbending expansion of exotic products (esp. in subprime and Alt-A)
Bond Rating Firms...who were asleep at the switch and consistently mis-rated CDO's and MBS's as 'investment grade'
Lenders...for responding to Wall Streets open floodgate by reducing underwriting standards to a cursory overview
Investors...for using the lenders easy money to play a risky game of speculation in real estate
Borrowers...many buyers lied about their income, job history, and intent to occupy the property (Lenders turned a blind eye to this as well)

Bottom line- it's unbelievably shitty to see DU'ers spitting on this man's grave.

[varelse]

89. No, I'm not glad this happened, I find it horrifying

and I hope that their sons will survive this tragic event and transcend it. Children of suicidal parents are at great risk of experiencing depression and attempting suicide themselves. Hopefully their extended network of family and friends will be enough to help them avoid being another statistic :(

[lildreamer316]

110. Welcome to DU..

and I sincerely hope you are right.

[Blue_Tires]

90. i can at least feel sympathy for his dead wife and the sons he left to pick up the pieces

[WillowTree]

103. Much of that thread

and a few posts on this one are stark evidence of the old addage about how one of the pitfalls (or pratfalls) of hatred is that we inevitably become the thing that we hate.

Hate never helped anyone and harms both the hater and the hated. Very sad.

[rateyes]

105. I feel sorry for the children, and for their mother,

but, that's it.

[BoneDaddy]

106. This surprises you?

DU has many great minds, no doubt. what it also has is a high percentage of people who, if they had their way, make this country into a place where their "tribe" rules and would be just as restrictive in regards to liberty as the religious fundamentalists are. What attracted me to liberalism is the seeminly rapt attention to that which was rational or logical, combined with a purpose of bringing equality to all. That is true for many in here.
For many in here, compassion is only for those of our tribe.
This is not much different than the onther side.

[Obamarama]

113. I didn't catch the blood thirsty encouragements over the guy's suicide, but it doesn't surprise me..

It seems DU sure has devlolved a bit since I joined, so I'm not totally surprised that there were people reveling in the suicide/murder by the mortgage banker.

Yes, I was on the "Ding-Dong The Falwell is Dead" boat when he died, and I remain unapologetic about it. He was truly an evil, greedy bastard disguised as a preacher.

But someone who is mentally, emotionally and psychologically to the point where they are willing to kill themselves and others deserves pity, not accolades because he did it.

We don't know his whole story. Whatever the real story is, and whatever this guy did in the mortgage business likely isn't grave enough to warrant the death penalty, even at his own hands.

I suppose those cheering the guy's demise also think the two surviving kids deserve to suffer this sort of sensationally tragic loss that will remain with them for the rest of their lives?

What the fuck is up with you people?

[alarimer]

114. I would have been much happier for that miserable fucking piece of shit to end up in jail

Like he so richly deserved. There is no telling what kind of damage vultures like him did to others. We'll never know. I am sorry that he killed his wife. I doubt she deserved that. People who kill others before offing themselves deserve no kind of sympathy. AT ALL. I'll save my sympathy for the poor fools he screwed over.

[OzarkDem]

115. A lot of "new" posters in that thread

I wouldn't judge DU by it, more likely some fanning of the flames by disruptors.

Its understandable that some people might not feel sympathy for the man as he did murder his wife before he took his own life. He wasn't just some depressed guy who took his own life, he killed another innocent person, the mother of his children, too.

[Hekate]

118. KnR for a really great thread and a good rant. But lay off us Boomers, okay? We tried our best...

...or most of us did.

I'm with you in being really distressed over the level to which DU has sunk lately.

:hi:

Hekate

[lildreamer316]

121. I am

truly sorry that I came across that way. Believe it or not,it actually wasn't my intention at all...
Only because you had a great generation, are you held to a higher standard, anyway.
I was just saying that I hoped none of those who voiced such opinions were turning around and claiming that for their own.
...:hi:

[rpannier]

122. I didn't comment on this one

and it is a sad story.

However, I did comment on falwell's death and I stand by what I said then, "I do NOT mourn falwell's death, nor did I mourn the death of Augusto Pinochet or Pol Pot. They were dispicable people who contaminated the world with their vile, evil behavior."

[girl gone mad]

123. People on internet message boards act like jerks.

Film at 11:00.

[tomreedtoon]

124. All right. How ELSE are we going to get back at them?

We can't vote them out. We voted for Democrats in 2006 and they sat on their hands.

We can't work for candidates for President that will change anything. The Fembot and the Student Council Candidate are the only candidates in the race, for as we know, John Edwards Does Not Exist.

Kucinich's plan to throw people like Donald Trump and Sumner Redstone into Abu Gareb, and take away all their ill-gotten gains, will never come to pass; he doesn't even have the whispered rumor status as John Edwards Who Does Not Exist.

The only talk among the candidates about the war is how to sustain it.

And we sure as hell aren't going to pick up arms and burn down Washington. Americans aren't that competent at actually doing anything mechanical like that any more. We'd have to ask the Canadians to do it again, and their money is worth so much more than ours, we can't bribe them.

So what other satisfaction are we going to get, before this country finally sinks into the sea, than to cheer on the deaths of the bastards who ruined our lives?

You tell me that, lildreamer316. Come on. Spread some Disney magic on our life here in Hell. Go ahead. I dare you.

And in case you were asking, NO SARCASM. ABSOLUTELY NONE.

[Nihil]

135. Hear, hear!

No, it is not nice to see people "jumping on graves" but, like you,
I can understand it at times.

:shrug:

(It will be interesting to read the response to your questions though.)

[zanne]

127. Family-killing and suicide are becoming an epidemic...

How many days go by before we hear of another guy killing his, wife, children and then himself? (Or, for that matter, a woman who kills her kids and herself). WTF is going on here?

[Neecy]

130. this is sad

My sister (a good Missouri Democrat) is a mortgage underwriter and she lost her job last week. Her company didn't do subprime loans. She mainly underwrote HUD and Fannie and Freddie. Now she's out of a job and very likely out of the industry, what's left of it.

Are you all rooting for her to kill herself? This place can be pretty goddamn sick sometimes.

[BuyingThyme]

131. This is the legacy of Democrats who support the death penalty.

The worst among us.

[Political Heretic]

132. Truth is, a lot of people are just right-wingers in attitude wtih left wing ideology.

That's the cold truth.
Truth is, a lot of people are just right-wingers in attitude wtih l
Just because you post at DU, or call yourself a "liberal" because you have certain political views sadly, doesn't immediately make you a decent person.

It's just the way it is, and there are plenty of asshats on all sides. :(

[ProfessorGAC]

137. A Profound Grasp Of The Obvious

Since nobody is claiming otherwise, it would seem you're preaching to yourself.
The Professor

[Political Heretic]

141. Well, "The Professor" the response is for the original poster.

Who expressed his shock and surprise at what he found in responses here.

[Pawel K]

139. Some people around here are pond scum

no different than freepers. But I think those people are the minority, I hope I'm right.

[IronLionZion]

140. A lot of people on that thread are on my ignore list

frankly, I'm not surprised.

That wife of his did not deserve to be murdered. I hope there is someone to take care of their boys.