You know some of you are just fair weather democrats.

[Reciprocity]

When things get tough, like your choice for the nominee fails in the primary, you will set at home and watch the republicans win the presidency.

I'm a die hard democrat, which means I have held my nose on occasion when I've voted. That's life. There is so much at stake here besides your pride. We have three good, descent, intelligent candidates this time. And I will not need to hold my nose for any one of them. So be a stand up democrat when the time comes and vote.

[populistdriven]

1. You'd Be Suprised how many closeted Ron Paul supporters are lurking around here

[noamnety]

2. I've never been a "my country right or wrong" kind of person.

I've never been a "my party right or wrong" kind of person.

If democrats are complicit in the torture of others, in genocide, in environmental disasters that result in mass starvation, I have a moral obligation to speak out against it. I cannot morally vote to continue to drop depleted uranium on a country, or to continue to slaughter innocent men, women and children.

It's like choosing between lynching 5 men or 20. I refuse to be part of that system.

I will continue to support the minority of democrats who also refuse to be complicit in torture and genocide.

[Lex]

4. I refuse to be complicit in electing a Republican

by not voting for a Dem in the Gen. Election.

[Reciprocity]

5. So I gather you don't vote very often? n/t

[XboxWarrior]

7. I am just a dude in Colorado.....

thanks for the insult......

But I choose to vote Democratic.

If at any moment, there were another viable party that supported my personal views, I would vote for them.

As of late, there hasn't been.......so I still vote Democratic. Even when that means wasting my local vote, (mostly no dems on the ticket here in Teller, County)

My boss is a total Libertarian, he won't withhold taxes, and won't pay work comp......but I like the job, so I do it.

I AM free to choose.

peace

p.s. I hope Obama wins, just so I can say, "Well, we tried".

[noamnety]

20. My post wasn't intended to insult you.

It's explaining my position that I cannot vote for a person I know will continue a genocide.

As an analogy, if our only two choices were Bush and someone further to the right of Bush ... gosh I can't think of anyone ... let's say the head of the KKK. Could you bring yourself to vote for Bush in order to keep the KKK guy out of office? Would you hold your nose and case a vote for him?

[Dark]

47. So, instead of at least trying to save 15 lives, you'd wash your hands and let 25 people hang?

:shrug:

[noamnety]

51. It's a hard thing to come to terms with

as a democrat, but the reality is that Clinton killed as many Iraqis through sanctions as Bush did through bullets. I voted for that, twice, and was complicit in the deaths of a half million children.

[Lex]

3. I'd vote any one of the Dem candidates running.

I've been disappointed with each of them for various reasons, but any of them I could vote for. I haven't trashed them or bashed them or opened spittle-flinging ranty OPs about any them.

Thank goodness too because I might just be pulling the lever in the Gen. Election for one who was not "my candidate."

[bigwillq]

11. I'm with ya.

I have my fave (Kucinich) but I will vote for anyone of the DEMS on the ballot despite some of their flaws.

[MissDeeds]

6. With all due respect

some of us are Democrats who believe that it takes more than a "D" after one's name to represent the ideals of this party. Some of us become incensed when we vote someone into office believing that they will represent us, and then they pander, posture, and cave like cheap tin foil when the opposition proves threatening. Some of us are from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party and will not stand for our time honored principles to be bastardized for the sake of appealing the other side of the aisle.

I understand where you are coming from, but I do think you overlook the bigger issue. Many of us want our party back, and we are willing to fight for it. We have to dig our heels in or we will surrender to becoming less than the party of the masses and those without a voice.We will become simply "vote getters".

[Breeze54]

8. You can say that again! - "then they pander, posture, and cave like cheap tin foil "

I'm voting Kucinich. ;)

[MissDeeds]

9. You go, Breeze!

Dennis is a damn fine choice! :toast:

[Joe Fields]

10. I like your answer. I'll go with that.

:thumbsup:

[bigwillq]

12. So if Edwards is not the nominee

who will you vote for? :shrug:

[MissDeeds]

15. Edwards or Kucinich n/t

[Reciprocity]

13. I understand that,

but I have found in life, that nothing in politics is perfect. I conceder voting for the lesser of two evils at times a better way, than not voting at all.

[mondo joe]

16. It does take more than a D to represent the party. It takes the votes of the party.

But that doesn't seem to matter to some either.

[Individualist]

17. Hear, hear!

Rewarding enablers with votes only encourages more enabling.

[readmoreoften]

39. I'm with you. A neocon with a D behind his (or her) name is still a neocon. /nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. I'm an ex- DINO. Now I'm an Independent.

We don't register by party in my state (WA). When we moved here (1993) we assumed that we remained Democrats. We've discovered that we are de-facto Independents. Which is fine with both of us.

I've voted for 3rd Party candidates before as a Democrat, now I may do so as an Independent.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

[ileus]

18. registered dem since 88

now that I've moved to Va I'm not sure...they didn't ask party when I registered in '06.

[XOKCowboy]

19. Three candidates running? You wouldn't know it

Anyway I agree with you. I wonder how many here didn't vote in the last 2 election for the same reasons.

You call yourselves independents all you want but if we have 4-8 more years of Repug rule, then be sure to come back and tell us how proud you are of yourself that your integrity is intact even though you have no civil rights left.

[TahitiNut]

21. I'm an independent liberal. Want my vote?

EARN it. :shrug:

[SmellsLikeDeanSpirit]

24. Bingo.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. My country right or wrong,... or in this case, my party right or wrong

sorry.

By the way, I am not a yellow dog, but an Indie

[EFerrari]

23. Beating up on people is no way to win their vote.n/t

[BeHereNow]

25. And we also know that some on DU are completely delusional-

Got a mirror handy?

BHN

[Desertrose]

26. BHN...your reply is much nicer than mine was going to be....

and right on point I might add.:)


Party loyalty...like the party has EVER been loyal to the voters. This primary is an excellent example of how the party cares so much about its people...keeping some out...ignoring others...changing rules mid stream.

OH yeah, they've definitely earned my undying loyalty. :eyes:

DR

[BeHereNow]

28. The "Good Germans" were loyal to Hitler too...

You and I aint never gonna fit that mold.
Thank GOODNESS!
Some of us actually take the time to THINK.
A little research never hurts either.
:hug:
BHN

[Blue-Jay]

37. Thread over. Godwin-bomb dropped!

[genie_weenie]

27. Wrong, my vote doesn't matter.

Not one jot or tittle.

[BeHereNow]

29. I think our votes DO matter, integrity wise.

There may be no chance in hell that
an actual representative of we, the people
will be elected, however when it is all said and
done, we can say to ourselves we did what we could
to elect one.
I will vote until they no longer allow me to,
even if the corporate bastards have already fixed the outcome.
I like sleeping at night and therefore I will continue
to vote against them as long as I have the right.

BHN

[genie_weenie]

30. I live in Chicago...

My vote for president is absolutely meaningless...

I voted for Nader in 2000. (Didn't matter)
I voted for Kerry in 2004. (it probably didn't matter, also I was in Iraq at the time so who knows if it even made it to the US)


And voting for Warmonger A or Warmonger B interests me very little.

[BeHereNow]

31. The point is- to exercise your RIGHT.

I plan on writing my candidate of choice in if necessary.
I will not vote for any of the war mongers either.
Clinton. Obama. Or the rest of them dem or repub.
So far, Kucinich is the only one with the courage
to call for criminal charges against these lunatics
and corporatists.

No one can take away my right to write his name on a ballot
even if there is no chance of the corporatist bankers
allowing us to elect a President who acts
in OUR interest, not theirs.

I guess you could say it is taking the right action
regardless, in the face of certain defeat.

Sort of like David and his sling shot against Goliath...
What else have we got left?
Taking the correct action no matter the out come
is continuing to act with courage
and personal integrity by my definition.
I learned it from Rosa Parks.
BHN

[Skittles]

40. oh please

at least you live in a BLUE state - have some compassion for us Dems in hideous states like, er, TEXAS :o

[Skittles]

32. I will have to hold my nose for any of the three

but I will do it, I will vote for whoever is the nominee

[BeHereNow]

33. Will that be BEFORE or AFTER you KICK THEIR ASS?

Bwahahah.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
BHN:toast:

[Skittles]

34. LOL

it's just I am severely disappointed with the Dem candidates, but I am not stupid enough to boycott the election, even if I do live in f'n Texas :D

[BeHereNow]

36. I will not boycott the election either, but I'm afraid you will have to kick my ass

If Lady Walmart or Sir Neocon puppet are the nominee.
My fingers aren't strong enough to hold my nose for that stink.

BHN

[Skittles]

38. I hear you

I've resigned myself to thinking they'd be better than any repuke but........in any case, I cannot understand the hero worship and backbiting about them - they simply are not worth that kind of passion

[BeHereNow]

42. Do you want ME to KICK YOUR ASS for a change?

After all these years has anyone thought to kick your ass?
You've done so much for others and how thoughtless
of us to never offer to kick YOUR ass for you... it's unforgivable if I think about it.
I WILL kick your ass if you want me to.

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya:
BHN

[Skittles]

45. I've been threatend with ass-kickings

but not HONORED with one. THANKS! :P

[BeHereNow]

46. How very selfish of us all...

After all you've done for us in the ass kicking department.
Tell me when and where.
BHN:P

[timtom]

35. Not me.

I don't like to be opinionated, but...I'd rather swim in an ocean of s**t than vote republican. I believe it to be a little less slimy, somehow.

[Two Americas]

41. this is divisive and destructive

There is absolutely no reason to start with the loyalty tests. They are destructive and divisive, and they are also dishonest. You don't mean that people should not sit out the vote, what you mean is that people should not SAY they are going to sit out the vote, and also that is OK for others to attack critics of the party by jeering at them - "whaddya gonna do? Vote for Nader and help the Republicans?" Your post declares open season on any daring to criticize the party, particularly the rightward drift of the party, and as such is highly suppressive and antagonistic.

It in effect says "put up and shut up you leftists because you have no where else to go and if you complain too much, we are going to call you traitors and Republican enablers."

We vote by secret ballot. How we vote is our own business.

We have the right to express dissatisfaction with the party.

This is not about whether or not someone votes, as you pretend, because your approach would fail miserably at that. This is a covert and sneaky way to encourage attacks on those expressing certain opinions.

You don't tell someone to commit to staying on a job, no matter what their boss does, or staying in a marriage no matter how their spouse treats them. If a boss or a spouse demanded that sort of loyalty test, it would be highly suspicious.

Loyalty tests, and covert calls for ganging up on heretics, has no constructive or legitimate place in the Democratic party.

[BeHereNow]

43. You're RIGHT! Should we send SKITTLES in to KICK some ASS?

LOL!~
BHN

[BeHereNow]

44. Oh crap, sorry- I just realized you're new here- please don't take offense.

"Skittles will kick your ass" is an old joke on DU.
I just looked at your profile and saw that you only
joined last month. So sorry; I didn't mean to
poke fun at your post which was very good indeed
and I agree with all that you said.
Welcome to DU and please don't take offense.
Stick around long enough and you may just get lucky-
Skittles may kick YOUR ass.
LOL
BHN:hi: Welcome

[Two Americas]

49. no worries

Thanks for the welcome. Have enjoyed your posts.

[Faux pas]

48. The last time I held my nose and voted, it was for kerry. Now tell

me, what did that accomplish? Stuck with some wimp who didn't even have the balls to fight for his own win. Two of the top three are just as crooked and corporate as the thugs. If one of them wins, once again, WE LOSE. If it comes to one of those two being my only choice, sorry if I can't cave to holding the party line, I have more integrity than that. Change with those two is not going to happen. Wake up.

[AtomicKitten]

50. I think people need to go with the flow in the primary and stop the loyalty oaths.

Voters usually aren't particularly amenable to brow-beating.

[MadHound]

52. And some of us are just down right disgusted Democrats

I've been active in the Democratic party since before I could vote, for thirty five years. In that time I've watched as our candidates have grown ever more corporately compromised, and as the party has drifted ever more to the right. I've watched as what was once the base, the backbone of this party get tossed overboard, as the party bigwigs decided that we could either like it or lump it(after all, who ya gonna vote for, a Republican? Har, har, har dee har har:eyes:)

Most of us are sick at having to continually choose between the lesser of two evils, which is, after all, still evil(Clinton and his corporatist policies proved this true). Now we're being asked to swallow a candidate whom, in the eyes of many, is just as bad, if not worse than many of the 'Pugs.

Thus the question comes to mind, why the fuck even bother? This isn't some petty "my guy didn't win, I'm going home" sort of rant, it is an honest question, which many of us simply can't answer.

Thus you see people starting to drift away from the party. Good, loyal Democrats who've been shut out from the table while corporate America feasted. Well, you beat on that blue dog long enough, he'll go away, and that's what's happening here.

Now get this through your head, we don't owe the party or its nominee our vote, or anything else. However the party has come to take that for granted. What the party needs to remember is that it is their duty to put up a candidate and put together a platform that will have some element that appeals to the diverse groups within the party. If one particular group is continually neglected, why should you be surprised if they go away? It is the party who owes us people and platforms that we can at least get behind. They also offer us legislative perks as a reward, and frankly the liberals and progressives haven't gotten one of those, just a backhanded slap in the face and loyalty oaths. Is it any wonder that we're going away.

So you can take your little loyalty speech and shove it. If you want the votes of the progressives and liberal wings of the party, you've got to do it the old fashioned way, earn it. That means nominating a candidate that we can stomach(hint, Hillary isn't that candidate), and toss a few bones to us as a reward. If not, well don't act so surprised when we drift away and don't support the nominee. And that won't be our fault, that will be the failure of the Democratic party.

[sendero]

53. Exactly...

.. and when the actual governance of a Dem is only a red hair better than a Republican, who cares if they win or not?

I get SOOOOOOOO tired of hearing about the "voter ratings", that weight something like preserving the snail darter with the same gravity as the Iraq war, telling me that candidate A is Oh So Liberal.

BULLSHIT! Anyone who wants to continue the war, who thinks that draconian bankruptcy laws are just all right, that the health care problem can be addressed by sending more money to the cause of the problem, the bloated insurance companies, well, they are not a Dem in my estimation and why the fuck would I care if they win the election?

As far as I'm concerned, let the Repugs finish burning America to the ground, and then, MAYBE THEN, the Dems will have the god damned fortitude to stand up for Democratic principles, after seeing how abjectly Republican principles have failed the country.

No matter who gets elected this cycle, they will be facing the most severe economic debacle since 1929. I don't envy them, that's for sure.

Bottom line, I live in TX, my vote for president is pretty likely to be inconsequential. I'll vote for the Dem candidate, but just barely, and with no joy unless Edwards somehow manages to pull it out. But I TOTALLY understand those who have given up on the Dem party as presently constituted, the current Congress should hang their heads in SHAME.

[mac56]

54. Amen.

Harry Truman once said: "Give the people a choice between a Republican and a Republican, and they'll vote for the Republican every time."

[sendero]

55. Some of us are waiting for..

... Democrats who go down fighting, rather than Democrats that just go down.

[mmonk]

56. Not really. Some of us are traditional democrats,

those that reject the new order of things in America with its corporate takeover. We are called the "old way" or the past by the DLC which now controls party policy positions.

[Lilith Velkor]

57. Well, la di motherfuckin' da.

[NorthernSpy]

58. I don't recall any fair weather...

The last time a Democrat was in the White House, we got a bunch of awful trade deals and a half-hearted, quickly abandoned attempt to create a national healthcare plan.


Then in 2006 we elected a Democratic Congress that simply refuses to fight for us on any issue.


So "fair weather Democrat" is a contradiction in terms. The Democrats never bring us any fair weather at all.

[HughBeaumont]

59. SIiiiiiiiggggghhh . . .

Then we'd all better choose wisely in the primaries so we don't GET a candidate that fills us with uneasiness and divides the left and center of the party rather than unites them, shouldn't we?

And once again, it's not really the job of the voter to mold his/her views to the party.

It's up to the party to listen to it's constituents.

So are we going to be part of the party that blames it's own voters for not allowing it to take them for granted?

Call me a nutjob, but I'd like to be proud of who I vote for. Let the Repukes nominate any one of their backwoods, war corporatist, free-trader scum. That's them. I don't want to be like THEM. I want an opposition. I don't want to "settle", goddamnit. I'm tired of settling and I'm sure as shit surprised that I'm not finding more like me.

[Le Taz Hot]

60. My vote is earned,

not demanded.

[TahitiNut]

63. Amen.

The politics of THREAT are just one of the detestable things about Smirk and Sneer ... and certainly not persuasive or LIBERAL.

[zalinda]

61. Neither of the top 2 that have been pushed

down our throats care one whit about us. They are CAREER politicians, it's a GAME to them. Both of them have worked mainly in politics, taking one rung at a time up the political ladder. A career politician is not going to fix what is wrong with DC, it's what they know. They are too far entrenched in the process to see what is wrong with it. Nothing will change when either of them get in. I still won't be able to afford health care, there will still be rich schools and poor schools, and minimum wage earners will still struggle to make ends meet, as necessities will still be expensive. I see nothing in Obama or Clinton that says they will make a difference, all I see are 2 party hacks gaming the dem voters, once again.

And Kucinich voters, I'm sorry but I don't see him winning anything. With all the loyal (and I do mean loyal) supporters he's had for all these years, he should have had a better organization. He's polled lower than all the candidates except for Gravel, and this is his second time running. If he can't wrangle his loyal supporters into a cohesive organization, how could he run a government of cats.

As for the other candidates who dropped out, I don't think I would have had a problem voting for them. They all seemed to want to change things, but I guess it just wasn't their time.

Edwards is the only one who is running who ISN'T a career politician. He had a successful law practice and could have sat on his butt, and enjoyed his money. But, he decided that he wanted to leave a better world for his kids, so he got involved with government. He soon saw that there was a broken government, he tried to play the game of politics and he hated it. He decided the only way that he could change anything was to run for the top position. Maybe things won't change in DC if he gets the Presidency, but he's the only one who is standing up for those of us who have been invisible since LBJ. I want him to try, and I know that he will work everyday as hard as he is working to get our votes. With him, at least I will have a chance to matter, and that's something that the other 2 will never give to me.

zalinda

[mdmc]

62. I vote for the best candidate

:shrug:
If the dem is weak and the gop is viable, I will vote for the best candidate. Why should I vote for a lazy, unqualified, corrupt democrat when there is a hardworking, liberal, honest republican running (kinda like the last City of Newburgh council election?)

As far as the 2008 race, my electoral vote will go to the dem, since NYS will always be blue. What matter is it who I vote for?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. Fair weather? It's always been icy out here on the left.

[Bill McBlueState]

65. nothing wrong with that

Everyone should vote in his or her own self-interest, not in support of some imaginary team that won't actually reciprocate when you need help.

[conspirator]

66. Having a democrat winner is nice. But if that democrat is going to let the corporations

exploit people and screw the middle class. Then really it doesn't matter if it's a democrat or a republican.

[ProfessorGAC]

69. I Agree And Disagree

I agree with your basic sentiment. However, i disagree that it doesn't matter. I think having a repub in there is worse by several degrees.

And, to be honest i don't quite accept the "sell-out" tag applied to the current nominees. I don't agree that there is anybody, at this point, who is already bought and sold.
The Professor

[Reciprocity]

67. Well I certainly see how Bush stole one election and won another.

There are doers and there are talkers. For seven years the talkers have won.

[Phoonzang]

68. I'll vote for whoever the candidate is but by Nov.

all the possible choices would have destroyed each other. The Democrats find a way to shoot themselves in the foot every election year, and it looks like this year is no different. We could have had it in the bag, but instead we chose to got to war with ourselves and start talking about RACE. Something neither Clinton or Obama should have done.