Gay Muslims Pack a Dance Floor of Their Own

[JI7]

six men whirled faster and faster in the center of the nightclub, arms slung over one another’s shoulders, performing a traditional circle dance popular in Turkey and the Middle East. Nothing unusual given the German capital’s large Muslim population.

But most of the people filling the dance floor on Saturday at the club SO36 in the Kreuzberg neighborhood were gay, lesbian or bisexual, and of Turkish or Arab background. They were there for the monthly club night known as Gayhane, an all-too-rare opportunity to merge their immigrant cultures and their sexual identities.

European Muslims, so often portrayed one-dimensionally as rioters, honor killers or terrorists, live diverse lives, most of them trying to get by and to have a good time. That is more difficult if one is both Muslim and gay.

“Depending on which part of Berlin I go to, in one I get punched in the mouth because I’m a foreigner and in the other because I’m a queen,” said Fatma Souad, the event’s organizer and master of ceremonies. Ms. Souad, 43, a transgender performer born in Ankara as a boy named Ali, has put on the party for over a decade.

Kader Balcik, a 22-year-old Turk from Hamburg, said: “For us, for Muslims, it’s extremely difficult. When you’re gay, you’re immediately cut off from the family.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/01/world/europe/01berlin.html?pagewanted=1&hp

[Tinksrival]

1. Thanks for the link.

That was an interesting article.

Another snip>>>>

“The answer is not to replace homophobia with Islamophobia,” he added, pointing out that homophobia is also higher among Russian immigrants and in other, less urban parts of Germany.

Kader Balcik, a 22-year-old Turk from Hamburg, said: “For us, for Muslims, it’s extremely difficult. When you’re gay, you’re immediately cut off from the family.”

He had recently moved to Berlin not long after being cut off from his mother because he is bisexual. “A mother who wishes death for her son, what kind of mother is that?” he asked, his eyes momentarily filling with tears.

Hasan, a 21-year-old Arab man, sitting at a table in the club’s quieter adjoining cafe, declined to give his last name, saying: “They would kill me. My brothers would kill me.” Asked if he meant this figuratively, he responded, “No, I mean they would kill me.”

“I’m living one life here and the other one the way they wish me to be,” Hasan said, referring to his parents. He said he still planned to marry, but when he turned 30 rather than right away, as his parents wished. “I have to have children, to do what Islam wants me to do,” he said. “I would stop with everything in the homosexual life. I would stop it.”

He stood up from the table and called to his two friends. “All right, boys, let’s go dance,” he said. “We’re here to have fun.” And they marched off to the dance floor, smiling.

[defendandprotect]

2. How can you be homosexual AND a Muslim?

It's like trying to be a feminist and a Catholic --- ???

Or a Muslim --- ???

[Fleshdancer]

3. I guess it's the same as being homosexual and Christian...

If you live in a tolerant area, you can be who you are and believe what you want without fear of prejudice.

[defendandprotect]

4. No -- how can a homosexual embrace the teachings of Christianity

which are anti-homosexual --- ???

Why would they support or contribute to the furtherance of such teachings and intolerance?

[Fleshdancer]

5. beats the hell out of me....

I'm Atheist so it doesn't make sense to me either. I do know that homosexual Christians exist though...I'm not sure why exactly, but fortunately there are cities that make it possible without prosecution.

:shrug:

[defendandprotect]

15. Of course, church teachings are so frequently "off" the mark of what many

of us think the Jesus fable is all about ---

But, actually supporting --- fianncially or otherwise --- an organized patriarchal religion seems questionable to me.

Of course, there are nuns who stayed behind in the Catholic Church and they've basically worked to make Swiss Cheese of it --- fighting right-wing interpretations of Christianity at every turn.

[davidinalameda]

8. Christianity is NOT anti-homosexual

Jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality

[Didereaux]

9. no, JC didn't but the OT Leviticus certainlly said enough...

..and if you are a xtian you MUST accept both the Old and the New testaments as the word of god...or do as all of them really do, pick and choose the bits that fit their predjudices. Probably best to burn the damn things,,,while the owners are holding them ala the Inquisition.

[davidinalameda]

13. oh my goodness

not all Christians take the Bible literally

in fact, the vast majority of Christians do not take it literally

the Old Testament is a collection of stories, histories and laws

Leviticus contained the laws that the Jews lived by at one time

it also says don't eat pork, shellfish, and you shouldn't wear mixed fabrics

I eat pork, shrimp and have more synthetic materials in my wardrobe than I like

and anyone who has studied the New Testament knows that Paul's writing were specific to certain groups and certainly should not be considered "gospel" for any believer

for example, he says that women should not teach but in other passages, he praises certain females

is that a contradiction-if you don't know your history, it is

[Didereaux]

14. You made my last point quite nicely about picking and choosing! thank you

[defendandprotect]

18. And, that's another point . . . if you are for fairness and justice . . . why support

organized patriarchal religions which continue to preach the inferiority/subservience
of females ---

Any effort to exploit or discriminate against females should be a warning sign for any
member ---

PLUS --- it's time to challenge Christianity's "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" ---

these were mere licenses to the elite to exploit nature, natural resources, animal-life
and even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority ---

all of which has brought us deadly pollution of the planet, death of species, and Global Warming which will probably shortly lead to the end of our own species!!!

[davidinalameda]

27. my minister is a woman

not just a woman, but a partnered lesbian

sounds like the patriarchy is alive in well in my church

the bigotry against Christians on this website just amazes me

it seems as if posters are only progressives towards others tow the party line

you can't be a Christian; you can't question Cindy Sheehan and her ilk and you have to think all Republicans are just Satan spawn

and people wonder why this country is so polarized

[defendandprotect]

29. Well, I guess that means that organized patriarchal religions are now out of business, eh?

There are a few "Christian" Protestant churches where we are seeing that females are being included in the hierarchy and authority of the churches ---

Certainly that has not ended ALL organized patriarchal religions ---
neither Christian nor Muslim nor Hebrew ---


And, as is being pointed out at DU in at least two current threads we have a steady and strong rise of Fundamentalists with their eyes on theocracy ---
trying to indoctrinate military from West Point to Iraq --- and with as brutal
an outlook as the Taliban.



Some of your comments are less than clear . . .

the bigotry against Christians on this website just amazes me

it seems as if posters are only progressives towards others tow the party line

you can't be a Christian; you can't question Cindy Sheehan and her ilk and you have to think all Republicans are just Satan spawn

and people wonder why this country is so polarized


Again --- if you expect people to give up questioning and challenging religion just as we question and challenge our own government and elected officials, then I think you are going to be disappointed. Rather, I think that organized patriarchal religions require more scrutiny.

Where did anyone say that you can't question Cindy Sheehan and her ilk?
And where does anyone say that every Republican has to be considered Satan's Spawn?

On the contrary, I think Cindy Sheehan is often heavily criticized on this website; often over nonsense. And, that what elected Republicans have done to this nation over the last thirty years or more is simply move it towards fascism.

Do you believe in the inferiority/subservience of females --- ?

Do you believe in "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" --- ?

Do you believe in Christian teachings of homosexuality as an "abomination" --- ?

[davidinalameda]

30. few?

the Methodist Church ordains women

the Episcopal Church ordains women-the presiding bishop is a woman

some Baptist churches ordain women (the non-SBC)

Presbyterian, Lutheran, Disciples of Christ

and Reform Jews and I Conservative Jews do as well

and as for your statement

questioning religion is one thing; attacking people for their beliefs is another



On the contrary, I think Cindy Sheehan is often heavily criticized on this website; often over nonsense. And, that what elected Republicans have done to this nation over the last thirty years or more is simply move it towards fascism.

Sheehan is considered a saint on here; people are attacked for questioning her motives-I think she's let the publicity go to her head; no one takes her seriously outside the hard left; s

Do you believe in the inferiority/subservience of females --- ? NO

Do you believe in "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" --- ? God did give man dominion over nature; in that, man is to be a caretaker and not a destroyer; just because God gave us dominion over nature doesn't mean that we can poison the air, water, earth; drive entire species into extinction, etc

Do you believe in Christian teachings of homosexuality as an "abomination" --- ? Since I'm gay, I'd say no

[defendandprotect]

33. Some? How about the Vatican and the entire Catholic Church? How about Muslims?

Of the Protestant churches which have seen the light . . .
We certainly don't have an equal distribution of power between females/males in hierarchy --
this is all fairly recent.

And, of course "some" is not all --
Either in Protestant nor Hebrew areas ---

What do you consider "attacking people for their beliefs" --- ?

And, as well with Cindy Sheehan, I think you are mistaking those who stand up to those who attack her here as "attacks." Re-read some of the threads; Cindy Sheehan does not have an easy ride here depite widespread admiration for her from the anti-war Dems --
In fact, you can't openly advocate her for Cindy Sheehan as an opposition candidate to Nancy Pelosi!!
Not allowed.

As for these responses . . .

Do you believe in the inferiority/subservience of females --- ? NO

Do you believe in "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" --- ? God did give man dominion over nature; in that, man is to be a caretaker and not a destroyer; just because God gave us dominion over nature doesn't mean that we can poison the air, water, earth; drive entire species into extinction, etc

Do you believe in Christian teachings of homosexuality as an "abomination" --- ? Since I'm gay, I'd say no


If you disagree with church teachings re females and re homosexuals, how do you support a church --
presumably financially as well as with time and devotion -- which teaches such things?
Either you are with the organized church or you're against it?

"God" didn't give anyone "Dominion Over Nature" . . .
it's religous theory and religious license for exploitation for profit ---

How in the hell would man take care of nature --- ??? LOL
We've altered the DNA of about every animal on the planet --- !!!
And we've wiped out a few dozen species of animals or more --- !!!

The only way you can believe something like this is if you think "god" talks to you --
or if you believe in the Bible as factual ---










QUOTE: --

the Methodist Church ordains women

the Episcopal Church ordains women-the presiding bishop is a woman

some Baptist churches ordain women (the non-SBC)

Presbyterian, Lutheran, Disciples of Christ

and Reform Jews and I Conservative Jews do as well

and as for your statement

questioning religion is one thing; attacking people for their beliefs is another


On the contrary, I think Cindy Sheehan is often heavily criticized on this website; often over nonsense. And, that what elected Republicans have done to this nation over the last thirty years or more is simply move it towards fascism.

Sheehan is considered a saint on here; people are attacked for questioning her motives-I think she's let the publicity go to her head; no one takes her seriously outside the hard left; s

Do you believe in the inferiority/subservience of females --- ? NO

Do you believe in "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" --- ? God did give man dominion over nature; in that, man is to be a caretaker and not a destroyer; just because God gave us dominion over nature doesn't mean that we can poison the air, water, earth; drive entire species into extinction, etc

Do you believe in Christian teachings of homosexuality as an "abomination" --- ? Since I'm gay, I'd say no

[defendandprotect]

19. I think most of us recognize that --- however, I think we need more

main stream Christians speaking out against teachings of the various churches and against Fundie insanities ---

Within the churches and outside of them, we must hear Christians speak against teachings of the inferiority of females --- and against any intolerance for homosexuals.

[mitchtv]

32. The Apostle's Creed which , I think

defines a Catholic makes no mention no the OT.(except for Creation)
We were permitted evolution and science
I am for them, an apostate

[defendandprotect]

17. I agree --- and I can see that the Jesus fable provides for a bi-sexual Jesus ---

there seem to be lines in the Bible which suggest that Jesus had a "lie down" or two
with males.

HOWEVER, historical interpretations of the Bible --- which I also disagree with ---
have made the Bible and Christianity anti-homosexual in its preachings ---
and many a time a Catholic, for instance, has heard this intolerance and call for hatred
of homosexuals from the pulpits of Catholic churches!!!

"Abomination" is a word Catholics heard regularly ---
often from priests who were protecting priest-pedophiles!!!

[Le Taz Hot]

31. No, the teachings of Chris are

not anti-homosexual. The nutso fundie Christians have taken a few lines in the Bible NOT spoken by Christ and twisted them around to use as hatred toward gays and women.

[JI7]

6. mostly because they were born into a family of that religion

[defendandprotect]

20. But do they believe in a religion -- which oppresses them?

which basically denies they exist, which preaches intolerance and hatred for homosexuality?

Do they financially support the Muslim religious organizations which do this?

[defendandprotect]

21. Many of us were "born into religons --- and left --- !!!

As a female, I, of course, immediately rejected any teachings of female inferiority ---
but I also thought they were rather lame-brained on homsexuality which can be seen in nature --- and which, IMO, enriches our human societies.

I also rejected a violent "god" concept ---
and many other teachings, such as re birth control and abortion ---

And, the intolerance and authoritarianism of the Catholic Church ---

I was out of it as early as possible ---

[Sultana]

10. Faith is personal

It's between the individual and their creator. God's love does not have strings attached, It is very much possible to practice your faith and be homosexual.

God never said homosexuality is wrong, man did.

[defendandprotect]

22. Yes, it's personal -- however, we are talking about supporting the religion . . .

Why would any homosexual support --- financially or otherwise --- a religion which preaches hatred and intolerance for homosexuals --- ????

Or, for that matter, preaches inferiority of females --- ?

If one is interested in fairness and justice in the world --- ??

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. There are a hundred million homosexual muslims in the world, give or take.

Why don't you ask one of them.

[defendandprotect]

23. I'd be happy to do so --- but I don't think that Muslims acknowledge these numbers . . .

in fact, I think they deny that any homosexuals exist in the Muslim world --- !!!

In identifying themselves as "Muslims," however, does that suggest that they believe the teachings that homosexuality is abnormal?

Supporting such teachings --- financially or otherwise --- would suggest self-hatred --- !!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Basing the beliefs of a billion people based on the Iranian president?

Do you know what that sounds like to me?

[defendandprotect]

25. You're msg is a bit garbled . . .

However, if you're suggesting that we don't have the right to question and challenge organized patriarchal religions --- or any religion --- as we question and challenge even our own government . . . you're wrong!

And --- what does the Iranian president have to do with this?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. He's the guy who thinks there are no gay muslims.

Well, him and you.

[defendandprotect]

28. No -- I think there are plenty of gays who have been raised as Muslims ---

what I'm saying is, why would they continue in a religions which preaches hate and intoelrance for homosexuals?

[cap]

34. I am a feminist and a Catholic...

My inspiration is from our many female saints... saints who wrote major pieces of our theology, who ran major institutions like orders of nuns, hospitals, and other social services. I dont believe that Mary was a passive individual. I believe that she had a major influence on the early development of the church.

I have a lot of problems with the way my church does things and that many critiques of the church in regard to women are correct. I deliberately ignore the pronouncements of certain priests, bishops, cardinals and Popes. They are only men :) and therefore, prone to error :) :) !!!. But I can see that throughout history women have played a major role in the church.

[Sultana]

7. Good for them

They are a lot LGBT in the Muslim community, I don't why people are so shocked when they hear that. :)

[UndertheOcean]

11. K&R

[Didereaux]

12. sometimes more care really should be shown in wording subject lines! lol