Hillary Signals Free Pass for Bush - By Robert Parry

[kpete]

Hillary Signals Free Pass for Bush

By Robert Parry
December 31, 2007


Hillary Clinton’s campaign is signaling that a second Clinton presidency will follow the look-to-the-future, don’t-worry-about-accountability approach toward Republican wrongdoing that marked Bill Clinton’s years in office.

That was the significance of former President Clinton’s remarkable Dec. 17 comment that his wife’s first act in the White House would be to send Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush on an around-the-world mission to repair America’s damaged image.

..................

The Bushes and the Clintons – who have held pieces of the nation’s executive power for more than a quarter century dating back to George H.W. Bush’s election as Vice President in 1980 – essentially would be keeping matters within the board rooms of the Washington Establishment.

In responding to Bill Clinton’s remark, George H.W. Bush issued a statement making clear he would not join in any slap at his son’s foreign policy. That also means Hillary Clinton’s “first thing” is unthinkable if her new administration were trying to exact any accountability from George W. Bush for his wrongdoing.

So, to get the senior Bush’s cooperation on the worldwide tour, there would have to be an implicit understanding that the second Clinton administration wouldn’t investigate the younger Bush’s crimes – from authorizing torture, ordering warrantless wiretaps, exposing CIA officer Valerie Plame’s identity, waging war under false pretenses and other abuses of executive powers.

If Hillary Clinton does get elected, you can expect to hear lots of talk about “leaving that one for the historians” or about the danger of increased partisanship if the Democrats were viewed as trying “get even” by exposing Bush’s offenses.

more at:
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/123107.html

[helderheid]

1. K&R

[Yael]

2. Pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

[CorpGovActivist]

134. .

[AndyTiedye]

3. Sending W to the Hague Would be a Good Start Towards Reparing America's Image in the World

[balantz]

31. The Hague is too good a place for these pathetic psychopaths.

Great pic.!

[niceypoo]

89. I am curious what Edwards and Obama plan to do about Bush...

..once they enter office. Will they do anything? Perhaps that would be a good debate question. I would love to hear all of the candidates answer that one. I know Kucinich's answer.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

4. The wheels on the bus go round and round

[K Gardner]

5. This surely can't be a surprise to anyone... n/t

[Cha]

30. There's a lot of ostriches

who will never admit this.

[90-percent]

6. restoring America's image to the World

My suggestion for America to show we acknowledge the errors of our ways and we repudiate all of what this President has done is to:

Sit his treasonous ass on top of the Times Square Ball tonight and when it hits midnight, propel him into a vat of burning crude oil in the center of Times Square.

I would call that a very strong signal about how Americans feel about our current President.

-90% Jimmy

[Cha]

32. Maybe

2008? :)

[eridani]

7. As Bill let Poppy off in 1993, so Hillary will let Shrub off in 2009

Anyone who doesn't like that needs to work ar preventing her from getting the nomination.

[City Lights]

10. Yeah, and we see how well letting ghwb off worked for BC.

Payback was impeachment. Why he is so cozy with the poopy bush is beyond me...:tinfoilhat: :scared: :puke:

[AntiFascist]

26. I think this article sheds some insight into the relationship...

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0707/S00058.htm

[Cha]

34. So hillary is the

Mena candidate? It's been obvious to me that hillary is a comprised candidate since Oct 2002. If we stop hillary..we'll be doing something towards turning our country around..out of the dark and into the light.

[AntiFascist]

40. Mena is one of the primary centers in the Iran/Contra affair...

but you wouldn't know it except for very isolated reporting. Most people also wouldn't know that when Bill Clinton was governor it was said that she wore the pants in the family, working for a law firm that represented many of the compromised corporate interests in Arkansas.

[Cha]

46. The corporatemediawhores

cover up anything to do with facts and run with the juicy gossip. They need to be indicted and disbanded.

hillary and bill seem more dangerous than the bushites themselves.. the bushits have been in power for 8 years and most people are really tired of their bullshit but the clintons are trying to go incognito and they're still capable of fooling a lot of people(who aren't paying much attention).

[bvar22]

87. Several NAZI MediaWhores were prosecuted at Nuremburg...

for using their Media control to assist Hitler in WARCRIMES!


Here's hoping for a historical repeat :toast:

[Cha]

159. That's the first I've heard

about that..Thank you, bvar! Encouragement! :toast:

[AntiFascist]

136. The questions I would have are....

How much government-sponsored drug-running is still going on? (If the privatized "shadow government" is now taking over this function it might be much more difficult to track.)

How many people in Washington profit from this type of business, and how much does it affect their political decision-making? Sibel Edmonds seems to indicate that several Republicans and at least one Democratic congressperson are involved in lobbying efforts related to the heroin trade. How is this business tied into the nuclear bomb manufacturing (AQ Khan) networks and terrorism in general? Is this, perhaps, the evil side of government which feeds the military-industril-oil complex?

[mojowork_n]

149. It's a little dated, but this is the first link I came up with

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/economy/dontblink.html

[AntiFascist]

152. Thanks for that, it sums it up pretty well...

The entire economy, and the entire political system itself, is currently hooked and dependent upon - drug money.

I have been saying for years that you could show a video of George Bush ordering drug runs, CIA agents laundering money and flying airplanes full of drugs and no one in power would do anything about it. They would not be able to.

[frogcycle]

88. well, she had to, didn't she?

I mean, he couldn't keep his pants on...

[Cha]

160. She did..she had

to wear the pants in that family.

[truedelphi]

140. I agree that she is compromised but wonder why you choose that date?

Why that particular month and year?

[lisainmilo]

64. Excellent Interview.....but sad at the same time....

To know the corruption was there before they even started in the WH. I just thought that it was weird that we seen Bill and George H. together more often during this administration. Well, weird at first, but then more and more I realized they seemed to all be in bed together. It seems almost inrepairable.

[mojowork_n]

146. Wow! I've seen a few other great pages from that website.

Thanks for the link to that particular article. It's bookmarked.

Last night on cable, they replayed "Wag the Dog", a prescient, paint-by-number, bullet-pointed, this-is-how-you-do-it fictional expose of a made-up war to stop a WMD "terrorist" threat. I don't think that it was a coincidence, or happenstance, or without any sort of correlation that it was filmed during Bill (and Hill's) watch. Whatever the other good deeds they accomplished, there was also a bombing of a Sudanese aspirin factory, and that unilateral (never disclosed clause in the Rambouillet Accords that would have given Blackwater free rein over their territory) bombing war on the Serbs... templates for the current strategic disaster in Iraq.

[AntiFascist]

153. There was also the pilot episode of "The Lone Gunman"....

While Condi assures us that no one could have envisioned using planes as weapons, this episode, filmed in 2000, showed passenger airlines being taken over by a computer virus causing them to head straight towards the World Trade Center towers. The kicker is, according to the plot, it was a rogue government group that was responsible for the virus. While credit for the attack would quickly be snatched up by some Middle Eastern terrorist organization, the government group would then benefit from the ensuing military contracts.

[Cha]

35. We have to dig deeper than

what appears in the m$$$$$m propoganda.

[Individualist]

8. That's not at all unexpected

"The Democratic Leadership Council's agenda is indistinguishable from the Republican Neoconservative agenda," http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Kucinich_DLC_agenda_undistinguishable_from_Neocon_0813.html

[me b zola]

9. I think that if Hillary is elected, pardons for the * administration.

will be passed out like candy. I'm not sure what Obama would do. I tend to believe that Edwards would not issue pardons, and I am confident that Kucinich would not.

But we shouldn't have to guess what they will do, they should all be asked on the record.

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

11. I just put my Kucinich yard sign out 3 minutes ago!

Be happy to pull the lever for Edwards too!

[Lerkfish]

15. absolutely. I predict a hillary win in the primary would lead to

a Joe Lieberman heavy involvement, either as veep, or defense secretary, and a blanket pardon or abandonement of investigations of the bush administration.
there's a reason why Pappy bush and bill have been so friendly lately.

[Cha]

36. They wouldn't

dare!

[Lerkfish]

38. what's to stop them?

I mean, honestly. Take a look a the current congress.

[Cha]

39. I know...wishful thinking.

Let's hope they never get to flaunt their power around on a national anymore.

[niceypoo]

111. Pardons for what? None of them are being prosecuted

and if they were, Bush would just pardon them.

[kenfrequed]

12. So friggin true

Bill Clinton gave a free pass to Bush 41 and much of his administration of contra gate criminals. And look at all the goodwill it reaped!! Years of propaganda, right wing radio, militia sympathizers, Fox News, New Gingrich, the Olly North radio show, the republican revolution, Baby Bush, and an increase of political rancor from the right wing.

It also gave power to the triangulators, the DLC, and a pundit/campaign class of Democrats that have undercut the working class and the progressive movement.

Oh yes, and by validating this it also undercut America even more in the eyes of the world for our failure to own up to dissolving inconvenient democracies abroad-Nicaragua.

----


And yes I definitely see Hillary repeating this idiotic nonsense in the name of political exigency.

[College Liberal]

42. Great Post

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Lerkfish]

51. I agree, great post!

[Lerkfish]

13. is this really news to anyone?

it isn't to me at any rate.

[unapatriciated]

105. no it's not

but we need to keep repeating and posting regarding all the corporate and bush ties to the Clinton's. Maybe if we prove it over and over again to her supporters they will finally see the light. Maybe than they will start asking hard question of their candidate and demanding changes in her policies and the company she keeps such as Mark Penn (a top adviser) and Phillipi in Iowa(co-chairwoman of "Rural Americans for Hillary.")

[AntiFascist]

14. Of course, the Bush and Clinton crime dynasties are joined at the hip n/t

[nxylas]

110. It's good cop/bad cop

"If you don't vote for me, you'll have to deal with my partner here".

[seemslikeadream]

16. Following in her husband's footsteps

pardon a bush

[Yael]

18. The candidate of experience.

:thumbsup:

[Whisp]

17. it's all here like it was in bold print

from the future. Clinton will do piss all to correct the grave injustices of the bush admin.
How could she possibly insult her husbands good friend, Poppy?

to the Clinton supporters - it's all here, loud and clear. wake up. now.
don't leave it for years to come before the rheumy eyes open. there's no time.

Hillary does not represent Americans, she represents the power elite that suck the lifeblood out of us all.

[Kansas Wyatt]

22. I fear a deal between Clinton & Bush for the voter machine tallies.

He rubs her back, and she washes his.

'We The People' lose.

[miles 2 go]

135. Agreed n/t

[Disturbed]

24. Bill Clinton put his foot in his mouth but revealed what Pres.

Hillary Clinton would not do.

[Solly Mack]

19. I don't have faith, hope, or belief in any person or government...

- Nor do I have anything positive to say about a government or any person - that would allow the war criminal executive to go free.

A government that refuses to hold a criminal president who has repeatedly violated the Constitution, as well as both federal and international law, accountable is a government that will never be good for the people.


The person whom is sworn into office in Jan. 2009 will be a liar the minute they take the oath if they don't intend to (and actually do) hold the criminals accountable to the fullest extent of the law.

Such a person, such a government, cannot be trusted to protect the rights of the people. Such a person...such a government...can't be trusted at all.


You don't let war criminals go free and get to claim you're good for the country. That you care about the country. That care you about the people.

'Cause that's just a lie.

[spanone]

20. great post SM

:toast:

[Solly Mack]

23. Thanks, spanone

and to you!

:toast:

[malaise]

155. The absolute truth

Great post.

[Solly Mack]

156. Thank you, malaise

It's what I've been struggling with for a long while now...

There is no good in pretending anything positive or productive can come from allowing the Bush administration to go free. Allowing them to go free would mean nothing - absolutely nothing - will change. There might be surface changes - some window dressing that allows people to feel better about it all - and some people will cling to that - but the rot at the core will still be there.

[senseandsensibility]

21. I would think that this would be a given

Is anyone surprised?

[Cha]

37. No, that's why we're workin'

so much to make sure hillary doesn't get back in the whitehouse.

[Wizard777]

25. Dumbass! The Republicans will try to impeach her for swearing the oath of office. n/t

[Moochy]

119. self-delete

wrong post

[formercia]

27. It's not about revenge

it's about Justice.

Give the perpeTRAITORS their fair and due process.

[rhett o rick]

58. I agree, due process then send them to Syria for "heavy interogation". nm

[KaptBunnyPants]

28. The class of people the Bushes come from don't answer to law.

It's been at least 70 years of high crimes committed by Bushes that the government has ignored, including participation in an attempted coup of the United States in the 1930's, collaboration with the NAZIs, Bush Sr's exploits in Latin America in the 1970's, Iran-Contra, the subversion of democratic rule in at least 4 election cycles, falsification of intelligence for the purposes of starting an unnecessary war, exposing the identity of highly covert agents for political purposes, abuse of office, war profiteering, war crimes involved torture, rape, and murder as national policy, conducting surveillance in an anti-constitutional manner, ignoring the role of Congress and the Senate, and much more. Knowing how Bill closed the book on Iran-Contra, who in their right mind would believe that Hillary would be willing to do what is necessary to bring these people to justice?

[rhett o rick]

59. Right arm kapt'n. It's a class thang not a red blue thang. The sheeple will never understand. nm

[Cha]

29. It's not like there haven't

been enough clues since Oct 2002 and all the years bill clinton was in the oval office. If bill had spread out the facts about bush1 then bush2 would never have happened.

The clintons don't have any big picture capabilties..it's all about power and greed with them. Oh yeah, they can't wait to get in there and feed that war machine and prove what fookin' lyin' strangulators they are. NO wonder bush1 and babshit are such fans of bill clinton.

[balantz]

33. K & R!

This corruption must be cut off! The criminals have to be brought out and tried for war crimes, etc.. No more free passes! No more protection of criminal friends!

[CorpGovActivist]

41. Thank You, kpete!

:hug:

[Stephanie]

43. Perhaps they could adopt Jeb?

[Sugar Smack]

44. So

fuck her. Fucking traitor.:cry:

[Blue State Bandit]

45. UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!

K-n-R

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

47. Fascinated~How the bus wheels keep on going on.

A very stupid nation are we.
Happy New Year Katherine.

[journalist3072]

48. I came in here expecting to see some kind of quote from Sen. Clinton

that maybe she wouldn't investigate the crimes of the Bush Administration. And instead, I read this complete B.S.

How does anything in this article boil down to Sen. Clinton saying she wouldn't investigate BushCo?

[niceypoo]

113. My question is WHAT WOULD OBAMA AND EDWARDS DO?

Would either of them start investigations? There is no indication that either would.

[gtar100]

126. Question is, will she say anything about investigations.

You can't make an assessment based solely on what people say, *especially* in politics. This article lines up actions and positions to make an assessment, hence the word "signals". Frankly, I do not find this B.S. but is worth careful consideration.

The problems we've had since the Bushes and Clintons have been in office is unprecedented. Bottom line is that if Hillary Clinton does *not* say something very direct and very concrete about pursuing the crimes of the Bushes (et al), then why would anyone want to risk the continued dynasty of these two families.

For me, the burden of proof is on Senator Clinton to make it clear what she will do. I don't believe she is deserving of the benefit of the doubt. This is just too damn important.

[jgraz]

49. Eh, what's the significance of punishing war crimes compared to being the First Woman President(tm)?

:banghead:

[Lerkfish]

52. honestly, being a woman has nothing to do with it

in a bizarre way, support of clinton is completely devoid of gender, IMHO, its in support of continued american hegemony and neocon, DLC and AIPAC agendas. If they thought Joementum could win, they'd be completely behind him at this point.

Of course, they'll use the gender card when it suits them, but honestly I don't think the fact she's a woman has any iota of importance to her supporters.

[jgraz]

76. Hillary wants that spot in history

There's only ever gonna be one First Woman President, and Hillary wants it to be her. Seriously, why else would she run? It's not like she has an actual agenda to pursue or a set of core principles she wants to uphold.

[creeksneakers2]

50. Does Robert Parry actually get paid to write this garbage?

One lousy comment by Bill Clinton saying Hillary would restore good international relations and Robert Parry turns it into a signal that Hillary and Bill will conspire with GHW Bush, in secret boardrooms, to cover up all the crimes W ever engaged in just to get GHW Bush to take part in a good will tour? If Clinton wanted to send a signal about this criminal plot, why did he do it in a public speech?

Robert Parry is a kook fringe journalist on a voyage through deep space. The references in this thread to the well debunked Clinton/Mena Airport smear show that truth is a total stranger in Parry's world. A Mena/Clinton connection was debunked by two investigations. The outrageous claim was a production of Richard Mellon Scaife, the greatest producer of lies about the Clintons of all time. The Mena connection is right wing propaganda. A previous DUer got in trouble for posting it.

[Lerkfish]

53. Do you get paid to write your garbage?

:shrug:

if a point is valid, does it matter if someone is a "fringe journalist" or some bozo on a message board?

[creeksneakers2]

112. The point isn't valid

There is no evidence that Clinton's remarks were a signal at all. Its the lack of evidence that makes the writer a kook fringe journalist. He survives by telling people what they'd like to believe rather than what can objectively be determined to be true.

[Lerkfish]

142. sure, ok.

you'd sure hate to be one of those people that is gullible enough to listen to what they believe instead of what can objectively be determined to be true.

how did you candidate vote on IWR and Kyl-Lieberman again?

[seemslikeadream]

57. Jackson Stephens

look him up

[creeksneakers2]

69. Is that one of those Arkansas characters?

I've read plenty about all of them. Gene Lyons wrote a good book about all of that stuff. Read that.

[mod mom]

108. Here's a little something on the connection between the Bushes & Clinton:

In the late 80's, billionaire financier Jackson T. Stephens and his wife Mary Anne were described as “Mr. And Mrs. Republican in Arkansas.” And little has changed.

Stephens founded Stephens Group, one of the largest investment firms off Wall Street, with his brother, the late W.R. “Witt” Stephens. And both became power players in Arkansas politics -- just on different sides of the partisan divide. Witt Stephens was a die-hard Democrat and influential supporter of Bill Clinton during his rise to prominence. Jackson Stephens chaired former President Bush's 1988 campaign in Arkansas and helped organize his inaugural.

Stephens attended the Naval Academy at Annapolis, where he met and became friends with a midshipman from Georgia, Jimmy Carter. Still, that friendship didn't extend to political support. Stephens was an outspoken backer of President Ronald Reagan. In a rare interview in the early 80's, Jackson declared that Reagan was giving the country "exactly what we need. Some of us call it tough love."

-snip
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/2004/04/stephens.html


Mark Lombardi connections:

1 Jackson Stephens rivals Bath in his role as conduit between high-level factions. A Little Rock, Arkansas tycoon who attended the U.S. Naval Academy with Jimmy Carter and staked Sam Walton to found Wal-Mart in 1970, Stephens was owner of the notoriously toxic WTI Incinerator in East Liverpool, OH, and a munificent contributor to the campaign warchests of both Bill Clinton and George Bush, Sr. He was also embroiled in the BCCI affair through his association with BCCI satellite Union Bank of Switzerland—UBS, in turn, contributed $25 million to the moribund Harken Energy Corp.

http://www.wburg.com/0202/arts/lombardi.html

[dogishboy]

143. Not this stupid shit again

The ridiculous "progressive" morons (you remember the idiots who believed Nader's "there's no difference" blather?) used this in 2000 to try and misportray Mr Inconvenient Truth as an environmental turncoat. Now, it's Clinton's fault again. Gore is not guilty.

And coincendentally, Gore is not running

[rhett o rick]

62. The point is would you accept it if, and I say if, Clinton if Prez, forgive or does not

prosecute George W. Bush????

[creeksneakers2]

70. Depends on whether there is a case or not

I'd much rather see him prosecuted. But I know presidents as far back as I can remember didn't prosecute their predecessors. Regardless of which Democrat wins I don't hold much hope.

Getting rid of Bush and all his corrupt machine is a good step in the right direction.

[Lerkfish]

72. You don't think high crimes and misdemeanors have been committed

and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law?

asking "whether there is a case or not" is either being extremely naive, permissive or apathetic.

[creeksneakers2]

75. We are a nation of laws

If the law isn't respected we are nothing.

[rhett o rick]

158. At this point it appears we are nothing. nm

[Usrename]

78. How about this assessment over at huffingtonpost.com?

>>

The War Crimes Act of 1996 makes cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of detainees a violation of the Geneva Conventions and a federal crime. In addition, a 1994 law, 18 USC Section 2340 (a), makes it a federal crime to engage in torture outside the US, it also applies to those who conspire with (or aid and abet or order) torture outside the US. Both statutes apply to any US national, including the President, the Vice President and other top officials, as well as subordinates, such as CIA officers or other US personnel. If the President ordered, directed or authorized waterboarding or other forms of torture or mistreatment, he may have violated these laws. They carry the death penalty in cases where victim dies. In such cases there is no statute of limitations, so the President could be subject to prosecution for the rest of his life.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabeth-holtzman/beyond-mukaseys-confirma_b_72242.html

>>

Elizabeth Holtzman served for eight years as a U.S. Congresswoman and won national attention for her role on the House Judiciary committee during Watergate. She was subsequently elected District Attorney of Kings County (Brooklyn), the only woman ever elected DA in NYC, serving for eight years. Holtzman was also the only woman ever elected Comptroller of New York City. She currently works with Herrick Feinstein, LLP, and lives in New York City.

[creeksneakers2]

92. There is more to a prosecution than that

The Bush cabal probably covered their tracks pretty well. They did get a Justice Department finding that the techniques they used were legal. They may be able to use the finding to defend themselves. Bush would also raise lots of Constitutional issues. I don't know what other defenses they might have. I'm not a lawyer. So I use the word IF.

[Usrename]

114. What are you promoting here?

Do you think Ashcroft or Gonzales or Mukasey can just refuse to prosecute capital crimes and that's all there is to it?

That sounds like what you are advocating. Did you see the part where these crimes are punishable by death under our laws?

[creeksneakers2]

118. Please don't confuse analyzing with advocating

I'm commenting on what I see, not what I want. I'd love to see them all go to prison.

Unfortunately, the executive branch holds absolute and sole constitutional power to determine who to prosecute and who not to. Janet Reno let the hounds loose on Clinton for the slightest accusation. Bush's AG's refuse to prosecute, with the exception of Scooter Libby. Nothing can be done about it, now that the Independent Counsel Statute expired.

Perhaps a new Justice Department will be able to prosecute. I hope they can and do. I'm just recognizing that prosecution is both unlikely and may not even be possible.

[Usrename]

124. Under our system, they should be tried in the Senate.

What's wrong with that?

[creeksneakers2]

116. Note the use of the words IF and MAY

in the sentence: "If the President ordered, directed or authorized waterboarding or other forms of torture or mistreatment, he may have violated these laws."

[Usrename]

132. SOMEBODY ordered it.

A CAPITAL CRIME has been committed. There is no doubt at all about that.

You seem to be clinging onto the notion that Bush may not have had any knowledge. He certainly knows about it NOW.

[creeksneakers2]

138. I'm not clinging to any notion

I'm just being uncertain about that which is uncertain.

[Usrename]

147. So, are you saying that you are not certain that a crime occurred?

Or, are you arguing that you are not certain that Bush knows that a crime has occurred?

:shrug:

I don't see how either argument makes any sense at all.

[rhett o rick]

97. Agree, have a happy new year. nm

[wtmusic]

106. No, it depends on whether there is a will or not

There is a case. Bush broke FISA by wiretapping without a court order. He condoned torture that is specifically prohibited by US law.

These are facts. You can as well argue he didn't break the law, as you can argue that the earth is flat (notice I'm not saying it can't be done).

But to anyone with respect for the law, which you obviously have, the only ingredient missing is will.

[Usrename]

77. How about Chris Floyd?

Have you read Chris Floyd's comments on the Harper's piece by Scott Horton?


Some interersting tidbits on this subject from a month and a half ago!

"At his Harper's blog, Scott Horton demonstrates how the architects of George W. Bush's filthy torture regimen are now holding positions that allow them to protect themselves and their masters from the legal consequences of their actions."


"... The Democratic nominee looks certain to be Hillary Clinton -- whose husband buried a whole boatload of previous Bush crimes after he took office in 1993, as Robert Parry reports in his book, Secrecy and Privilege. If Clinton I had allowed justice to pursue the various Bush I scandals to the end, we would have been spared the hideous, murderous farce of Bush II's reign. The name of Bush would have been so rightly tainted that L'il Pretzel would never have gotten anywhere near close enough to steal the 2000 election. Is there anyone who believes that Clinton II would pursue Bush II's manifold crimes any more diligently than her husband?"


"No mainstream Democrat will ever allow full-fledged criminal investigations and prosecutions of Bush II officials for torture and the war crime of military aggression. You know and I know that's not going to happen. We will get, at most, some soaring rhetoric about "healing national wounds" and "coming together again" and "moving on." (With the outside possibility of a few small fry being offered up as sacrifices, to let the Dem president preen as the "restorer of the rule of law" -- and also purge the Republicans, and Bush, of the worst taint: "Hey, it was a few bad apples, and now they're gone. We've got a clean slate!")"

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2007/11/09/p20920

DU discussion:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2269467

At least people dillusions are now starting to be shattered. We are in a real mess.

[EFerrari]

96. Robert Parry is kook fringe, Greg Palast is kook fringe. Who else?

Let's make a list!

[leftchick]

101. John Pilger, Naomi Klien

Amy Goodman, the "kook fringe" list goes on and on.

[creeksneakers2]

120. How about Wayne Madsen or whatever his name is?

I've started working on a piece about Palast. I've singled out his work on vote caging since that's his best success, and therefore the fairest place to try to discredit him. Lots of interesting stuff. Palast got the basic idea right but I can't document some of his claims about the whole affair.

I took your last response to my post seriously,and think it would be better for me to have some concrete examples to link to when I attack these guys. If I publish something, I'd like to send you notice.

[EFerrari]

125. Now, Madsen really is fringe.

lol

If you do put that together, I really would like to see it.

[madfloridian]

128. You are writing a piece to discredit Palast? What is your agenda here?

Why are you doing that? Palast has had the very best in the world trying to discredit him. Are you better than they are?

You don't like Parry or Palast, I wonder why?

[creeksneakers2]

137. Its strange that you think I must have an agenda

other than seeking the truth together with others.

I believe that false stories hurt the left, even if they sound favorable to our side. They distract us from real events. The members of the left collectively arrive at strategies. The effectiveness of those strategies is harmed by inaccurate views of reality. We could all end up working against something that doesn't even exist , rather than working against something that does.

The untrue stories give believers a false sense of what is occurring. Most of the false stories make sensational claims about wrongdoing. There are many on the left who want to achieve something. But if those people aren't pursuing the hoax atrocities the believers of the hoaxes conclude that the skeptical people are working for the other side, as you may have concluded here. That splits the party and makes us all less effective. I'm also insulted by accusations from hoax believers.

Here's a recent example of dishonest work by Palast:

http://www.gregpalast.com/mrs-clintons-forgotten-fling-with-the-killer-of-karachi

Here's my response:

Palast says Hubbell received $500,000. It was $100,000. That shows Palast doesn't check anything before he makes his wild accusations.

What's more, Palast says, "More important, Entergy and its partners, the Riady Family of Indonesia had JUST paid about half a million dollars to Hillary’s old Rose Law Firm partner Webster Hubbell" The payment was actually made four years earlier.

The Clintons opposed the coup in Pakistan. They had rocky relations with Musharraf before and after the coup. The events that led up to the coup in Pakistan are well documented and have nothing to do with Bill Clinton or electric bills. A chronology is given on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Coup_of_1999

Based on nothing but wild conjecture that one event caused another, Palast claims Bill Clinton risked nuclear weapons falling into terrorist hands,or a war between Pakistan and India just because one of his friends couldn't collect their electric bills. That's nuts!

I could check this out more and find more flaws but I don't have time for every kook piece on the Internet. I would like to add to the discussion on Palast's claim that Hubbell went to jail for refusing to testify against Hillary that Hubbell in fact cooperated completely with the Independent Counsel and answered all their questions under oath. Starr just didn't like the truth he got. The payments to Web Hubbell, like everything else the Clintons were ever remotely connected to, were investigated almost endlessly. As usual, no wrongdoing was found.

END RESPONSE

The fact that Palast didn't bother to take a minute to check basic facts or didn't do the work necessary to provide any proof of his spectacular charge shows me that Palast assumes that his readers will believe what he says because they want to believe it and won't check out the facts. Believing in falsehoods in the face of valid contradictory information is mentally unhealthy. Palast takes advantage of and promotes that vice and that makes me angry. Palast damages the movement. He's turning people on the left away from our potential nominee but Palast doesn't care. He doesn't care about the causes he tells people he's a champion of. Hurting the nominee hurts the causes.

I don't agree that Palast has received serious scrutiny. A diarist on DailyKos conducted an evaluation of Palast's biggest story, 2004 vote caging in Florida. The diarist was treated to hostile attacks from Palast fans. Palast refused to cooperate and trashed the diarist. In fact, I can't find an instance where Palast ever produced evidence backing any of his stories when challenged to provide it. The diarist found some others to join him and did a great evaluation by going back to Palast's sources. The diarist found Palast got some things wrong and some things right. The diarist was a gentleman enough to apologize for what the diarist got wrong but I haven't found any reciprocation by Palast.

I'll get to Parry when I'm done with Palast. He works the same way. Take unrelated events and allege one caused the other. Find distant associations and weave them into conspiracy theories. That type of thing.

[madfloridian]

148. Is that the Kos diarist who later posted an apology?

Just wondering.

[creeksneakers2]

154. Yes, as I mentioned

But he did find errors in Palast's work. And he was right to question Palast when Palast claimed to have 500 E-mails that proved all kinds of stuff and Palast refused to show anyone the E-mails. I think he missed other flaws by Palast but I haven't made certain of that.

[mojowork_n]

161. Respectfully disagree. What's the altenative, Judith Regan, Tom Friedman?

The news business -- thanks, in part to the Telecommunications Act of 1995, signed by Bill Clinton, which allowed a few big companies to consolidate their stranglehold on the MSM -- isn't what it used to be.

Going back to the days of I.F. Stone and George Seldes, "investigative journalism" has always been derided as the realm of "fringe" reporters -- who ended up having a better track record than their mainstream competition. Stone was the only reporter in America to challenge the administration's version of events in the Gulf of Tonkin. Seldes was booted out of Europe by General Pershing, following WWI, then kicked out of the Soviet Union and Fascist Italy, before landing on Joe McCarthy's blacklist.

Telling the truth sometimes involves taking risks.

If it was 100,000 and not 500,000, that's still not exactly couch cushion chump change. I'd certainly remember having received it after 4 years, even if it wouldn't be relevant to you. (Are you sure the payments might not have involved multiple installments, over time?)

Nowadays, besides all the time and money and talent wasted on reporting distractions and 'infotainment', news reporting is so top-heavy with establishment court jesters and demagogues -- the Limbaugh's, Hannity's, Coulter's, Beck's and the rest, that the pundits and reporters who don't actually holler and bellow and drool spit (say, Victor Davis Hanson or Lou Dobbs) seem like the voice of rational consensus, by comparison.

On this list of the 50 Most Loathsome People in America:

http://buffalobeast.com/122/50mostloathsome2007.html

how many would you characterize as 'media figures'? The lines are so blended it's really kind of hard to make an accurate count. I certainly wouldn't add Greg Palast, or Robert Parry to it.

[creeksneakers2]

162. Josh Marshall is an example of a great journalist

Its possible to cover all the things the MSM doesn't cover ethically and honestly. I agree there have been great investigative journalists. They probably all got a few stories wrong. Its almost impossible not to. They should be judged by their work as a whole.

I call Palast kook fringe because he shows no respect for facts or the duty to provide evidence.

I'm not quibbling over the $100,000 or $500,000. The point I'm making is that those mistakes show Palast didn't take the time to check basic facts. There was nothing about whether the payments were remembered or not. Palast said the payments were made. Since that was false and easily checked, my hunch is Palast was trying to trick people into thinking one thing caused the other.

Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter and Beck are also irresponsible journalists. What's more, they are complete liars. They are part of what turned me against journalists who peddle propaganda that people want to hear, rather than the truth. I can see what they do to the people on their side. I can see what Palast is doing to the people on the left.

[mojowork_n]

163. Josh Marshall is a great journalist, but he didn't break the Katherine Harris

...Choicepoint (?) voter data base story -- Florida, 2000. Palast did that, and when he wrote about it again in "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" I was impressed with the evidence he presented, including photocopies of faxes and letters, the quotes he was able to get, and the sheer determination to get to the bottom of the whole story, and find out the true extent of the voter disenfranchisement.

I think you may be holding him to too high a standard, in lumping him in with 'propaganda peddlers', directly or indirectly.

The complete liars on the right have the benefit of the whole right wing noise machine, blowing smoke at their backs, and whatever invisible hands are involved in manipulation of the MSM, where so many news stories are suppressed, disappear down the memory hole, or are otherwise scrubbed, re-processed, or manufactured out of whole cloth, from the start.

[creeksneakers2]

164. Palast did fantastic work on Florida 2000 n/t

[sniffa]

130. leave the sacred cow alone

oh, and Jim Marrs is nutso.

[AzDar]

54. NO more Clintons. NO more Bushes...No more taking it in our tushes!

[seemslikeadream]

56. No more Jackson Stephens

[sattahipdeep]

141. No more Lee Hamiltons

In his 2004 memoir, My Life, Clinton wrote that he “disagreed with the
Iran-Contra pardons and could have made more of them but didn’t.”
Clinton cited several reasons for giving his predecessor a pass.

“I wanted the country to be more united, not more divided, even if that
split would be to my political advantage,” Clinton wrote. “Finally, President Bush
had given decades of service to our country, and I thought we should allow
him to retire in peace, leaving the matter between him and his conscience.”

By his choice of words, Clinton revealed how he saw information – not something
that belonged to the American people and had intrinsic value to the democratic
process – but as a potential weapon that could be put to “political advantage.”

On the Iran-Contra pardons, Clinton saw himself as generously passing up
a club that he could have wielded to bludgeon an adversary.
He chose instead to join in a cover-up in the name of national unity.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/123107.html



Chief counsel Lawrence Barcella told me later that he urged task force
chairman Lee Hamilton to extend the investigation several months to examine
this new evidence of Republican guilt, but Hamilton ordered Barcella simply
to wrap up the probe with a finding that the 1980 Reagan-Bush campaign had done nothing wrong.

:hi:

October Surprise .... September Surprise

http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/xfile.html

[Leopolds Ghost]

122. I Like That Chant, Can I Borrow it?

[AzDar]

157. Feel free!

:hi:

[caseycoon]

55. K&R n/t

[rhett o rick]

60. President H. R. Clinton equals status quo. nm

[Kip Humphrey]

61. Yet ANOTHER reason... I will NEVER EVER vote for neo-liberal, corporatist, globalist Goldwater Girl

Hillary

[Ichingcarpenter]

63. Damn right justice needs to be served

Justice without force is powerless; force without justice is tyrannical.
Blaise Pascal:

Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.Alexander Solzhenitsyn:

Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe.
Frederick Douglass:

The world is watching and waiting on what America does next.

[lisainmilo]

65. K&R

[scarletwoman]

66. k&r -- The fact is, however, NO one in the Establishment is ever going to hold bushco to account.

No one. No way. No how. Won't happen.

What WILL happen with Clinton is a continuation of neo-liberalism, corporatism, militarism, imperialism, and Big Money Lobby power with just enough sops handed out to the grumbling peasants to fool them once again into thinking that their "Leaders" actually much give a shit.

Same thing with Obama -- his "bipartisan" bullshit is just a recipe for more right wing control of our political frame of reference and acceptable parameters of discussion. Obama totally sucks, imho.

Edwards might be okay -- most likely fairly powerless in the teeth of the Villagers who will hate and deride him from day one. But there's a chance he won't actively do MORE damage, as I believe HRC and BO will do. He'll probably be more like another Carter -- but if progressives have learned ANYTHING in the last 30 years, it damn well better be that the work is just STARTING if we get Edwards in.

But no one's going to send the bushies anywhere but to cushy sinecures, not without an actual Revolution.

sw

[nolabels]

83. If that is all it takes to send them, then sign me for that "actual Revolution"

There is much more to this world then we will ever be able to see singularly or even collectively. The cards might be stacked up for a lot of things to go a certain way but never underestimate the possibility of chance. The impossible is we are cognizant beings that all happened into this world by chance, the possibility of debating that in the here and is even more remote and yet here we are. Don't underestimate chance, because it happens too many times and it will happen again.


(snip)

Pistol shots ring out in the barroom night
Enter patty valentine from the upper hall.
She sees the bartender in a pool of blood,
Cries out, my god, they killed them all!
Here comes the story of the hurricane,
The man the authorities came to blame
For somethin that he never done.
Put in a prison cell, but one time he could-a been
The champion of the world.

Bob Dylan › Hurricane
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/bob+dylan/hurricane_20021332.html

[AtomicKitten]

67. Junior's crimes will be swept under the carpet with another Clinton presidency.

I was in denial for years about the first Bush/Clinton dynamics, and I can only hope we are not witnessing the beginning of a second round of cover-ups for the BFEE.

[Lerkfish]

73. I agree.

another clinton presidency guarantees a free ride for junior.

IMHO

[AtomicKitten]

81. It is very frustrating and, in fact, embarrassing

for me because it took me so long to read the writing on the wall, but I vehemently oppose the dynastic advancement of corrupt cronyism. They cannot be allowed to wash the blood off their hands and just walk away.

[Peregrine Took]

68. Whose surprised?? They're all kissin' rethug cousins, after all. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. Maybe they're just playing with the assholes until she's in office? How could they NOT WANT REVENGE

for all the shit the repukes put them through? She'd be INSANE to not investigate these thugs.

[Individualist]

74. How could they not?

The answer is obvious:

"The Democratic Leadership Council's agenda is indistinguishable from the Republican Neoconservative agenda," http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Kucinich_DLC_agenda_undistinguishable_from_Neocon_0813.html

[maddiejoan]

79. Oh

So this is all just bullshit speculation.

carry on with the crucifiction then.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maddiejoan]

86. my my

aren't you precious!

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

150. No, I am not precious. I was disgusting last night

with that post. That removed post of mine was awful, and I apologize for my behavior. I was drinking.
I am very sorry Maddiejoan.

[supernova]

80. Hillary ought to lose on that idea alone

I don't want her any where near the oval office if that's the case.

I'll wait for a woman of true grit and integrity on her own terms.

[Richard Steele]

82. Kicked and recommended

[liberalla]

84. ... as if we needed another reason not to vote for her!

I do not want her to be the (D) candidate!

[Singular73]

90. Heh, lots of wet-behind-the-ears on this thread

Look - these people are not citizens like everyone else.

They navigate a complex power-structure with lots of winks and nods. Hell, the only public official that can actually go to prison are congressmen and below. Senators and above are safe, in sanctuary, the American aristocracy, just like everywhere else in the world.

Does anyone here actually think that Bush will ever be held accountable by anyone except a higher power, if you believe in one?

Please.

Please, give me one example, of where an ex-president got jailed or charged with ANYTHING.

Hell, they pardoned Nixon for Gods sakes.

[HughMoran]

99. Historical precedent and common sense

don't apply here. React first, be vengeful - let's never move on - that is the attitude of the brain-stems who can't see beyond simple revenge. Oh, well :(

[Ichingcarpenter]

91. To quote Bill Hicks

"I think the puppet on the left shares my beliefs! I think the puppet on the right is more to my liking. Hey wait a minute, there's one guy holding both puppets!"

[Squeegee]

93. I'll make a prediction

The next president, Clinton or otherwise, will do the same thing.

[HughMoran]

100. Of course

Everyone knows this is what's going to happen. To pretend otherwise is to be naive.

[jonnyra]

94. When I first saw the story

that Clinton had suggested some of goodwill tour featuring Bill and George my first reaction was exactly what Parry is pointing out...there is no way Bush senior would do anything like this if there was an implication that his criminal son was to blame for the trashing of Americas image. Why would he? How could he? This made no sense to me when I first read it and as Parry points out it points directly to more cover up and white washing if Clinton gets elected.

This does bring up a good point though...what are the major candidates saying about any action against the criminals in the White House? I know Kucinich has spoken about it and is declaring his commitment to go after them but I have heard nothing from the other camps. Anyone know if Edwards has made any statements regarding this issue? This to me may be the most important thing we need to know about a potential next president...are they gonna hold this criminal administration accountable or just let 'em slide?

[sallyseven]

95. Who the hell is Robert Parry

Is he a mind reader???? How wonderful of him to make such nasty comments.

[EFerrari]

98. Find him using the Google. Parry is one of the few journalists

that didn't fall for the idea that 9/11 was a good excuse for the Bush junta to commit crimes. Lots of good liberal street cred.

[Cleita]

102. This shows how out of touch the Clintons have become

with the mood of mainstream America even the world. It makes me wonder what they have planned for the future of America that they don't want accountability for.

[Javaman]

129. they aren't out of touch, they are just following the game plan...

the government hasn't listened to the people for well over 40 years.

[sattahipdeep]

145. keep the public in the dark

Vice chairman: Lee Hamilton
Former Congressman Lee Hamilton, chairman of the House select committee investigating
the Iran-contra affair, was shown ample evidence against Ronald Reagan and
George H. W. Bush, but he did not probe their wrongdoing.
Why did Hamilton choose not to investigate?
In a late 1980s interview aired on PBS 'Frontline,' Hamilton said that he did not think
it would have been 'good for the country' to put the public through another impeachment trial.
In Lee Hamilton's view, it was better to keep the public in the dark than to bring to light
another Watergate, with all the implied ramifications. When Hamilton was chairman of the
House committee investigating Iran-contra, he took the word of senior Reagan administration
officials when they claimed Bush and Reagan were 'out of the loop.' Independent counsel Lawrence Walsh
and White House records later proved that Reagan and Bush had been very much in the loop.
If Hamilton had looked into the matter instead of accepting the Reagan administration's
word, the congressional investigation would have shown the public the truth.
Hamilton later said he should not have believed the Reagan officials.(4)

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/research/911_intel_commission.htm

[Cleita]

103. This shows how out of touch the Clintons have become

with the mood of mainstream America even the world. It makes me wonder what they have planned for the future of America that they don't want accountability for.

[niceypoo]

117. Actually the article is a complete grasp at straws

It is pure conjecture and insinuation

[mojowork_n]

165. If it was only conjecture and insinuation,

do you think it would have kicked up such a firestorm of response?

What none of us should lose sight of (no matter which of the Democratic candidates we're pulling for) is that from the very beginning -- even before all the votes were counted in 2000 -- this may very well have been the most corrupt, deceitful, and oppressive administration in American history.

Whether or not it was the absolute worst may never be known (or confirmed) -- not unless someone starts appointing independent prosecutors.

People on both sides of the aisle have things to be nervous about. Today's NYT piece by the Republican and the Democratic heads of the 9/11 Commission, on evidence that was concealed, or destroyed, during the waterboarding/torture investigation, is like a little faberge egg or cameo, a representative example, of that. Nancy Pelosi and others on our side, were briefed and reportedly gave waterboarding a pass.

John Conyers has a 1,200 or 1,400 page report already compiled, on The Chimp's misdeeds and constitutional violations -- a link is available on the right side of "Time for Change's" Journal home page -- but unless the right sort of leaders step forward, it's never going anywhere.

It could be the most important question that comes up during the 2008 campaign. The Republicans will do everything in their power to suppress it, but I think it's important, and perfectly legitimate, to consider the attitude of all of the Democratic candidates when it comes to investigating/prosecuting * for his crimes.

[mogster]

104. You'd think the next president would repair USA's image at home first

Respect the wish of the citizens, then go abroad and do the image thing.
This is so disappointing news.

-1 for Clinton.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

107. Typical treatment afforded to coexisting ruling class colluders in any banana republic.

[lonestarnot]

109. WTF?

:wtf:

[Evergreen Emerald]

115. This is a bullshit hit job on Clinton.

[global1]

121. Is Anyone Really Surprised About This.......

GHWB 4yrs + WJC 8yrs + GWB 8yrs + HRC 4 or 8 yrs + JebB 8yrs + Chelsea Clinton 8yrs...... and the beat goes on and nothing changes - continual gridlock and fluctuating in and out of wars.

[HughBeaumont]

133. Power is too precious to be decided by Democracy.

[Arugula Latte]

123. Yet another reason to kick Hillary to the curb. nt

[Tom Joad]

127. hill will not only not investigate, but PROMISES to continue the crimes.

Including keeping some troops in Iraq for years to come.

[Tom Joad]

131. I wonder if when George and Bill travel together if they book separate hotel rooms

[onehandle]

139. Any DUer who thinks any candidate is going to exact revenge on Bush as President is delusional. nt

[Lerkfish]

151. sadly, you may be right

of the top three, the only one that might is edwards.
Kucinich would, in a heartbeat.

[BrightKnight]

144. Talk like that might win the general election but that is not what is important.