I was sort of like the kids in Jesus Camp

[dsc]

No, I wasn't as hard corps as them. I also wasn't home schooled. I was actually the only one in my family attending the church I went to. It was hard corps fundy. No non vocal music in church (it wasn't mentioned in the Bible). Boycotting evil TV shows. The Pastor didn't celebrate either Easter or Christmas as every day should be those.

I wanted the certainty that this church provided. Things were right or wrong. There were iron clad rules. All I had to do was follow those rules to the best of my ability. It took a long time for me realize that this wasn't the path for me. Watching the film I know how far I have come. I wish the kids in that film all the best. From personal experience I really fear for the gay ones. They have quite a journey to embark on.

[gateley]

1. There is comfort in having your "truth" being black and white. You feel some

control over your life somehow. I'm so glad you found your way to be true to who you are.

:hug:

[dsc]

3. I was convinced I could live by their rules

and if I could then I would be OK. No amount of trying could make it work though.

[saltpoint]

7. I second gately's sentiment on this, dsc -- the acknowledgement of what

you have come through to get to where you are.

That film is spooky. The young man didn't quite see to realize that a majority of the adults in charge of his spiritual education were unbalanced, and the young woman seemed eerily robotic. It kind of gave me the creeps.

Keep standing your ground. You have earned the yardage.
:thumbsup:

[dsc]

10. these kids are way more invested than I was

if for no other reason than I was much shyer than they. I wouldn't have done been in a documentary. It really is a bit scary.

[saltpoint]

12. The woman who ran the camp has evidently suspended operations in the

wake of the Ted Haggard scandal, although I got the feeling that she'd fire it back up again at the drop of a hat.

I felt sad for the young folks, but felt nearly hostile toward her. She seemed truly wacked out and too frightened to be influencing others, no matter how old they were.

[dsc]

13. As awful as the likes of Haggard are

I admit, that I could have been him had I become more committed to that vision of Christianity. Needless to say I am very glad I didn't.

[saltpoint]

15. dsc, I join you in that feeling. It occurs to me that you were more honest

with who you truly were, unlike Rev. Haggard, who remains less than truthful about who he is.

I don't have any problem with his being gay, or hiring an escort. None of my business. But I do have a problem with a gay man in the pulpit telling his congregation that gay sex is a sin. That's blatantly hypocritical, and that's my problem with Haggard.

You earned the yardage. He hid in the locker room.

[dsc]

16. I told my former pastor, via email, before the 2004 vote in Ohio on banning marriage equality

he never wrote me back. I wasn't exactly honest back then. I was still fairly young about 14 when I left that church, but deep down I knew the score.

[saltpoint]

20. Well hells bells. Not many of us are sure-footed and certain when we're 14,

no matter the topic.

You're allowed to be 14 years old, or 22 years old, or 122 years old, and still be human.

Shame on your pastor for failing to reply. Shame on him.

[dsc]

22. It was disappointing he didn't answer

He had written an oped in favor which is why I wrote. I was trying to put a human face on the issue. Clearly it didn't work but I didn't really expect it to.

[saltpoint]

23. It feels to me that he let you down. He let you down personally and he

abandoned one of the principal tenets of his own faith.

Shame on him.

[dsc]

25. He probably had no idea what to say

I guess on one level I am his worst nightmare as an openly gay teacher. He probably figures I am demonicly possesed or something.

[saltpoint]

26. My guess is you aren't demonically possessed. My guess is you're possessed

of a lot of personal courage.

Socrates was an interesting man. A teacher. Whose students stood by him in his hour of trial and death. They remained loyal and steadfast to the very end.

According to the gospels, Jesus, also a philosopher and teacher, met his own hour of trial and death and his students (the disciples) abandoned him. They denied him and abandoned him.

I'm not arguing for paganism over Christianity, but in the examples of those two men, your pastor followed the wrong model.

It's ironic that the truer Christian would have chosen the pagan model.

[dsc]

27. true

As a teacher I see kids dealing with religion in their lives every day. Some are seeing contradictions between their pastor's teachings and their experience and having to decide which is true. We all have to hit that wall sometime.

[saltpoint]

28. dsc, you keep on being a good teacher.

Your students are in far better hands than the young folks under the fundie tutelage of that scary Becky woman in JESUS CAMP.

[dsc]

29. The gay straight alliance at my school will be starting up next semester

with me as faculty advisor. I am nervous but certain I am doing the right thing. I will say, that Becky would make a terrific teacher if she only weren't nuts. She clearly is a skilled deliverer of instruction.

[saltpoint]

30. "...if only she weren't nuts." LOL! I think it's the "nuts" part that I can't get

past!

Good luck with that alliance, godspeed, and two thumbs up.

[dsc]

31. thanks

and have a happy new year.

[Gormy Cuss]

2. Most children want black and white answers to explain the universe.

That's why it's so exploitive to train them to stop questioning whether it be about spiritual or political beliefs. Opening a closed mind is very hard. I'm grateful that I was raised in a faith tolerant of questioning dogma.

[TomInTib]

4. Goodness, Buddy...

I grew up washed in the Blood of the Lamb as a Southern Baptist in rural Texas.

Everyone I knew was either Baptist, Pentecostal, or Nazarene.

Scary shit.

[dsc]

14. Church of Christ for me

and not the Disciples one either.

[Warpy]

5. I can't imagine the rage kids who break away have to deal with

after this sort of treatment by a psychotic woman who can't let them enjoy TOYS without trying to use them to force them into some sort of rigidly psychotic, unthinking mold.

I had enough of it just breaking away from the Catholic church when I was a kid. Luckily, I was over it by the time I was through my teens.

It was a rough trip, though.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. The children in that movie are being abused

Especially the one who is sent out into the streets to talk to strangers about Jesus.

If I had seen this film as soon as it came out, I would have reported their church for child abuse.

[dsc]

8. the kids probably weren't kids by the time this film came out

production and post production often takes a couple of years. They are likely teens by now.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. That one probably has his own church by now!

:scared:

[dsc]

24. He might

He is alreay charismatic. Some people are compelling to watch or listen to and he definately is.

[mntleo2]

9. Plus God loves you for who you are not ...

...for what rules you follow. Because a loving God would know that sometimes, the rules that people make are not even possible to follow, even for the ones who make them. The Golden rule is: Love your neighbor AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF ~ something that fundies seem to forget unless it comes to taking what belongs to the world to hoard for themselves. Suddenly the "love your neighbor" part is important to them, but the "as you love yourself" is only about them, God forbid should a little guy actually believe he is as important! Something is wrong with that picture and Jesus Camp people are not telling it like it is.

My 2 (cynical cents (sense) from a church attendee who could not go to a church that did not preach tolerance and though is straight, could not attend a church who did not accept gays as equals.

P.S. the United Church of Christ accepts all into their midst and works for justice and peace actively (and this is *not* the Church of Christ, which does not accept instruments of any kind, the U.C.C. church is the exact opposite of them. The U.C.C. is a progressive church, Barak Obama is a U.C.C. member and his minister is well known, deeply respected, and awesome!)

Love
Cat In Seattle

[dsc]

11. The UCC is fairly uncommon in my region

its sister church, the Disciples of Christ, is common in my region. Sadly it isn't quite as liberal.

[Hippo_Tron]

17. I'm watching it right now and it's so satisfying that Ted Haggard got caught with his pants down

Oh how the mighty have fallen.

[Lex]

18. I grew up going to a Pentecostal Holiness church. It's total fundy.

I outgrew that dogma or whatever at about age 13. None of it made a bit of sense after about 12 or 13 years old--in fact, I was sort of freaked out that adults believed any of it. That was the truly scary part for me.

[Akoto]

21. I was home schooled for health reasons, and rest assured ...

I am nowhere near that twisted.