I just read a good book about sociopaths. | Bush to a T

[man4allcats]

The book is entitled The Sociopath Next Door (Subtitle: The Ruthless Versus the Rest of Us, Broadway Books, 2005) by clinical psychologist Martha Stout, Ph.D. It does not mention Bush by name, but the pattern clearly fits. It is an easy read (218 pages - I'm a slow reader, and I read it over the weekend). Check it out. It's available in paperback. In addition to Bush, you will doubtless recognize people you know or have known, worked for or with or been married to or involved with.

[Disturbed]

1. GWB- The Silver Spoon Sociopath

Yeah, I take credit for the naming. It fits him, totally.

[benddem]

2. I've known too many

I used to say that they acted like they'd all been pressed out with the same cookie cutter. The same lies, same deceptions etc. Really difficult people. The way * lies is so typical...he doesn't remember what his last lie was...so he just makes up a new one.

[Double T]

3. I'm afraid our dysfunctional society is and will continue to 'breed'.........

MORE and MORE of THEM! It is interesting how many of THEM attain high levels of authority in the corporate and political world. Scary stuff!!

[yardwork]

10. I've thought about why that is, and I have a theory.

I think it is because those who crave power over others really work at getting power over others. The rest of us, those of us who care more about loving people, our pets, the world around us - we don't put such a priority on gaining power over others.

For example, look at Dick Cheney. He doesn't seem to mind the deaths of hundreds of thousands as long as he gets his power and money. He clearly doesn't care about the things that most human beings consider important - the love and respect of others. All he cares about his money and power - so that's what he achieves, at any cost.

The power-hungry gain power over others because they work at it. The rest of us focus on other things. Therefore, the power-hungry end up in positions of power, making the lives of the rest of us that much more miserable.

I'm not sure of a solution. Anyone?

[hisownpetard]

14. The main characteristic that makes sociopaths different from "normal" people is their total lack

of conscience, which enables such people to do absolutely anything, without having any second thoughts.

Most people cannot even conceive of the acts they'd be capable of if they did not have a conscience, because
our individual conscience is such an integral part of our thinking, believing, acting and reacting in relation to others.

Sociopaths who have little or no education often wind up in prison.
Sociopaths who are well-educated become CEOs.

[yardwork]

17. See, I'm not sure that they have no conscience.

I think that their conscience differs from ours, though. Their conscience rewards completely different things.

[hisownpetard]

28. No, that's a known fact. They can allow themselves to commit any immoral act

precisely because they have no conscience and experience no remorse.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

33. HAH!!! They call it, "AMORAL"!!!! No shit!

I am sure you've heard the new elitist word to make their absence of conscience sound better: A-M-O-R-A-L.

[leftchick]

81. lack of empathy

notice how the sociopaths enjoy death and and express odd reactions to it. Like the chimp who giggles every time he talks of death.

[rocktivity]

39. Sociopaths have sort of a sense of right and wrong

The problem is, they define "right" as whatever serves their purposes, and "wrong" as whatever doesn't.

Textbook example: Tom Delay was successful in getting a judge removed from his corruption case on the grounds that he was a Dem contributor. No doubt he was feeling pretty slick about it until the prosecutor got the replacement judge removed from the case on the grounds that he was a Repub contributor! While a normal person would have most likely anticipated that such a legal maneuver could be retaliated against, what sets psychopaths apart is that they DON'T think that far ahead--even a five-year-old can grasp the concept of "If I take a cookie without asking and get caught, Mommy will be mad."

:headbang:
rocknation

[Auntie Bush]

91. "Sociopaths who are well-educated become CEOs." Now that's a good one. n/t

[man4allcats]

19. Re: "I'm not sure of a solution. Anyone?"

According to the author, there is no solution. Sociopaths are what they are, and they have no interest in being cured even if a cure were available which there is not. Further, they have always been in the population and probably always will be. In fact, there is even a certain amount of selective pressure for the trait. As it happens, sociopaths are ideally suited for humanity's warlike nature in that they can kill without hesitation or remorse. Fortunately for humanity as a whole, these natural born killers constitute only about 4% of western society which means that those of us who are relatively normal outnumber the psychopaths by about 24 to 1 which is a good thing since it might well take those kinds of odds to control a lunatic. As for a solution, with the exception of recognizing them for who and what they are, the author notes that the best strategy for dealing with sociopaths is to avoid them because changing them is out of the question. They will die being what they are. Stay away from them if you can. Lock them up if you must. Are you listening, Madame Speaker? Impeach them, convict them and send them to The Hague.

[yardwork]

20. I meant, the problem is that some of them are always scrabbling to be in charge.

What do we do about the ones who end up in charge? History is littered with their stories. They're responsible for most wars. They're responsible for corporatism. They cause a disproportionate amount of trouble compared to their numbers because they insist on being in charge.

I agree with you that the Hague is the only reasonable solution.

[man4allcats]

26. Re: "What do we do about the ones who end up in charge?"

I'd post my own personal reply to this question, but it would get deleted and rightfully so.

[yardwork]

71. I hear you! Unfortunately, that usually doesn't work either. A new one takes over.

In the chaos and distress of violent overthrow, a new psychopath usually seizes the opportunity to grab power, and the problem just perpetuates. The Soviet Union had one right after the other. So have any number of other countries - including the U.S. at times.

[hisownpetard]

30. My ex was a classic and brilliant sociopath. In fact, a good friend of mine bought the book you

mention (The Sociopath Next Door), underlined all the parts that described my ex's behavior
to a "t" and then sent me the book, saying "Thank God you got out alive."

What you said about there being no possibility of changing them is absolutely correct. Not only do they not want
to change, but they would lie to a therapist or counsellor, if you could even get them to go, because in their mind they
think they are smarter than the counsellor - and they may well be. What makes it so difficult when you're up against one of them
in your personal life is that, in many cases, they are truly affable and have the 'gift of gab.' They know how to wrap people
around their finger; they know what to say and how to act. They are keen observers of human behavior and they use that
knowledge to get their way, no matter how devious the route.

The book is so accurate that I almost felt as though the author had been following me and my life for the past 20 years.
A very worthwhile read!

[Triana]

56. Sociopaths/psychopaths can even fool trained psychologists...

...they're THAT sly and manipulative.

I have that book - got it after getting out of an abusive relationship with an NPD/sociopath. He's defined in it. And that's MY "diagnosis" not a professional's. Funny how it fits him to a tee though.

[hisownpetard]

58. Try divorcing one who's a doctor AND a lawyer... and who doesn't want to let you go!

Hell on earth, for 4 1/2 years!

[Triana]

60. !?!?!?!

I'm also surprised you're even alive. Sheeeeeeeeeesh!

[hisownpetard]

65. You have no idea.

[yardwork]

72. I know someone who worked in a federal prison for the criminally insane.

She said that the prison was full of extremely clever psychopaths, and that the staff had to be constantly on guard against their manipulations.

[hisownpetard]

101. Scary, huh? OOf!

[BlueIris]

89. My ex was a sociopath, too. *Very* disturbed individual.

I didn't realize it until it was too late, but thankfully, I got out of the relationship before it did any permanent harm. Mostly.

[hisownpetard]

102. I know what you mean. Thank God you're outta there, though. It takes a lot of

strength to achieve.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

34. Seriously. The best approach is aggressive legal action, FULL TIME.

You are correct. The sociopaths of whom we speak WILL NOT STOP doing harm.

There is only ONE WAY to deal with them: AGGRESSIVE legal action, all the time, full speed, non-stop. Now, I am talking in cultural/social terms. For those who don't have the resources to TAKE POWER AWAY from these seriously sick barbarians, the best course is to get far away as quickly as possible and turn to those who offer any/all assistance to protect you.

[pink-o]

85. Sociopaths completely lack EMPATHY

Empathy is a learned trait in human behaviour, and it must be learned when we're toddlers in order to avoid sociopathic tendencies.

Bush was left alone or with nannies at the critical juncture, because his sister Robin was dying of Leukemia and HW and Babs were by her hospital bed. Not that I'm excusing anything that psycho chimp has done, but it just validates your diagnosis. He is a classic anti-social personality, combined with extreme narcissism.

The three tells of sociopathy are:

1) setting fires

2) cruelty to animals

3) bed wetting

Now we know Chimp put firecrackers in frogs and blew them up, which takes care of 1 and 2. Taking bets that he hit the trifecta, whadda ya think???

[2hip]

29. There is no solution

It's just the yin/yang nature of the universe. There is good/ evil...empaths/sociopaths...Democrats/Republicans, etc. The trick to maintaining sanity is to associate with like-minded souls and avoid the assholes.



        Edwards '08 tees!

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

36. I humbly disagree. The solution is every means possible to restrain these people,...

,...DISempower them to minimize damage.

On edit: the universe is mostly gray

[2hip]

44. Have you ever gone head to head with a real live sociopath?

They'll hand you your ass every time. They are energy vampires who think and experience the world differently (http://www.health24.com/news/Mind_Psychology/1-930,33385.asp) - you cannot restrain them or disempower them.

I used to think just like you until experience taught me differently. It was a hard lesson to come to terms with. The best we can hope to accomplish is counter-balancing the evil they perpetrate with our own good deeds towards those who won't abuse or exploit our efforts.

But every one's path/lessons are different, so who am I to say?

Peace out!




Edwards '08 tees!

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

46. Yes. I am suggesting picking battles, well-planned battles.

I am not suggesting you are wrong in your approach, for you and your life.

I completely agree with you that, "every one's path/lessons are different" and I DO NOT recommend anyone pick a fight with a calculative barbarian. Get away ASAP.

What I am suggesting for those able is this: plan, be patient, persist, be calculative and picky, and mostly creative.

Yes. I have dealt with sociopaths in my life. They count on just wearing people down.

Peace to you. :hug:

[yardwork]

73. Welcome to DU! For most of us, your solution is probably the reasonable one.

When the psychopaths are in charge, though, we need to use that legal power approach.

[tbyg52]

69. Frederick Pohl had some ideas

in _The Years of the City_, particularly a story called "Gwennanda and the Supremes." (Basically public office as a duty, like jury duty.) I'm sure there are a lot of ideas in science fiction - I should start making note of them when I read for pleasure.

[kalibex]

111. 'I'm not sure of a solution. Anyone?'

Revolution.

[Triana]

57. Read 'Snakes in Suits' - Robert Hare co-authored it...good read about...

..how/why many of them end up as CxOs (and Presidents).

[no_hypocrisy]

4. What I find telling about sociopaths universally is their amorality, an inability

to recognize right from wrong, leaving them devoid of contrition or regret for any damage they have caused others.

[man4allcats]

5. This is EXACTLY the point the author makes.

As incredible as it may seem, they literally lack a conscience. Since they have no conscience, right and wrong are meaningless concepts to them. All that matters is winning the game, and the name of the game is control.

[morningglory]

7. We evacuated from Hurrican Ivan at 5am. Had a room reservation that

would not be available till 11am, so we went to a bookstore. I read most of it between 10am and 1pm. It was fascinating. Many who get ahead in corporations are described. It was fascinating. You will recognize many co-workers and *bush in it.

[yardwork]

74. I think it lets them off the hook to say that they have no conscience.

I believe that everybody can choose between good and evil. Psychopaths choose evil for the sake of money and power. I agree that to them, "all that matters is winning the game, and the name of the game is control."

Their consciences lead them in a different direction than ours.

[hisownpetard]

32. A slight but rather important correction, if I may: it's not that sociopaths do not know right from

wrong. What's so chilling is that they actually DO understand what's right and what's wrong:
they just don't care. In fact, the people who are often the targets of the sociopath's wrath are the ones
who are perceived by the sociopath as having the most integrity, and therefore the most vulnerable.

It's a reversal of everything we think we know! That's what's so scary about them.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

38. The fact they target those with integrity is an important observation.

A "red flag" indicator we should all remember.

[hisownpetard]

Yeah; I think they reserve a special kind of disdain for people with high ideals, since

nothing is sacred to them and they value no one, except for the purpose they serve.

Stay fa-a-a-a-a-r away, if you can!:scared:

[hisownpetard]

41. Oops! Delete/dupe

[yardwork]

75. That is exactly the problem! They target decent politicians.

Look what they did to Gore and Kerry - two reasonably decent politicians. Look what they do to environmentalists, to those in favor of universal health care, to those seeking to end the war, to those seeking to develop alternative energy sources.

The psychopaths who are running the globe right now (and I include the Bush White House, many in Congress, and most CEOs of major corporations, who control the media, our food, and our energy sources) routinely destroy and tear down anyone and anything that threatens their power.

That's what we're up against.

[man4allcats]

42. Your point is a good one and one I should have made myself.

You are quite right. They do know exactly what they are doing and that, by the standards of the social contract, what they are doing is wrong. That aside, they just don't give a damn. It is incomprehensible to the rest of us, but that is the way they think.

[yardwork]

76. Psychopaths have established social structures that reinforce their twisted values, though.

For instance, some religious institutions have been coopted into psychopathic ways of thinking. The idea that "believing in God will bring you personal wealth" permeates some mega-churches, TV evangelists, and the like. Also, some congregations have been convinced to attack people on the basis of very sketchy "family values" while supporting clearly unchristian and evil behavior. For example, look at the virulent fear and hatred of gay people among some Christian congregants, while they support preemptive war, torture, and defunding of social programs. These beliefs are the opposite of what Jesus preached, but their leades have convinced a lot of people otherwise.

When psychopaths get in charge of large organizations - like whole countries - they have a lot of power to rewrite "the social contract" to reflect their own twisted, selfish realities. And we're seeing that now.

[sandnsea]

6. Well, there's sociopaths and just difficult people

Huge difference and if you ever run across a true sociopath it'll blow your mind. I've only known a few, and only one that methodically and maliciously set out to hurt people. He was a real piece of work and he didn't stop until he was completely exposed as a fraud. Then he just up and left town and went on to a new scam.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

8. I think there are varying degrees of conscience.....

... some people have an intense conscience (Mother Teresa, for example). Others, have none (Ted Bundy, for example). I have known a few people who have a very tiny conscience. This society promotes the removal of conscience: cover your ass, be independent of others (you are responsible for no one else), etc. In that sense, I think this society brings out the sociopaths quite well.

[man4allcats]

11. Both you and Double T make an interesting point;

one the author mentions as well, specifically our culture promotes sociopathy. According to the author, research indicates a certain amount of sociopathy is hardwired in the cerebral cortex, but the pathology is not nature to the exclusion of nurture. Culture also plays a significant role as evidenced by the significantly lower rate of illness in eastern as opposed to western cultures. To put it to succinctly, we in the west are truly sick, and anyone who doubts that need only turn on the television.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. Very interesting! Thanks! You know what I wonder?.....

I wonder what happens when someone with a large sense of conscience is forced to live in a culture that is large on sociopathic mores and ways. Does it make the person ill?

[man4allcats]

25. Good question!

I don't know what would happen under those circumstances. I doubt that my own conscience is extraordinary, but that aside I know I would hate living amongst an entire culture of sociopaths. Truth is, I often feel sick just having to cope with BushCo on a daily basis, and again I don't think of myself as being in any way exceptional. In answer to your question, I think a person with a "large sense of conscience" would have a difficult time in a culture of sociopaths.

[NJCher]

27. that's a very interesting question

I don't think it makes them physically ill if they are insightful, which such people would tend to be. I was researching gifted adults and ran across some material that says that the gifted have very strong feelings about justice, fairness, ethical values, etc., i.e., "large sense of conscience."

If such people are gifted, theoretically, they would have the resources to deal with the culture that is sociopathic in nature.

Such people might have difficulty in realizing their full potential in this culture. Just about anything they do is done for free or very low pay because this culture does not value such contributions. Some gifted people, like Bono, for example, are able to make it on their talent and give back using their talent.

I know someone who starts a lot of altruistic projects and when getting them off the ground is met with comments like, "Why would you want to do something like that for free?" and "You have too much time on your hands."

Sad, isn't it? The ignorant people in this culture simply don't understand working for anything but a buck.



Cher

[sandnsea]

22. It's more childhood damage though

So I don't think our adult culture directly creates the true sociopath. I would think that would be more indirect, where parents who had been beaten up by our culture were unable to provide an empathetic parenting model to a child.

[man4allcats]

40. You may be right.

As the author notes, sociopaths lack the capacity to empathize. While part of this may be due to nature, a genetic anomaly as it were, parents with a strong conscience could turn the tide favorably for an otherwise disadvantaged child. They likely would not be able to make the child capable of love, a capacity the author states is due directly and solely to the possession of a conscience, but they may be able to make her/him functional in society in terms of the social contract. Will such functionality bring happiness to the otherwise sociopathic child/individual? Probably not. True happiness is most likely beyond the grasp of such people. Still, it may allow sociopaths (and thus so too us as well since we must deal with them) some modest degree of peace in a world that they otherwise find incomprehensible.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

92. True, but that means our culture indirectly creates sociopaths! nt

[hisownpetard]

35. Thanks so much for this interesting OP and discussion. What you say is so true,

and I think it's horrible that television, with some of its reality shows, promotes the skewed ethics
that allow and encourage deceitfulness, trickery and betrayal - as long as it gets you a "win."

No wonder we read things in the news like the story about that 6-year old girl who won tickets to see
some Hannah Montana concert by writing an essay about her father who was killed in Iraq. Only, it
wasn't true. Her mother said, "We did what we had to do to win."

That woman is a sociopath in the making!

[man4allcats]

48. This is horrible!

... the story about that 6-year old girl who won tickets to see
some Hannah Montana concert by writing an essay about her father who was killed in Iraq. Only, it
wasn't true. Her mother said, "We did what we had to do to win."

This is a perfect example of what sociopaths are!

[hisownpetard]

49. I know - it made me sick to my stomach when I read it. Sick, really sick.

But I really loved your posts, and I loved that book. I've never read anything that was so dead-on right before.
Every once in a while on DU, you can get into a really good give-and-take of ideas, the kind of discussion you can
sink your teeth into - and that's what yours was.

So thanks! It's great when that happens.

Susan

[man4allcats]

99. Thanks for the compliment,

and Happy New Year!

[alcibiades_mystery]

78. You measured their conscience?

:rofl:

"...some people have an intense conscience"

"I have known a few people who have a very tiny conscience."

What instrument did you use to measure intensity and size of the conscience?

[man4allcats]

9. Whether violent or not, this is apparently typical behavior.

They don't stop because they can't stop. It's what they do. Unless they break the law, get caught and are incarcerated, when exposed they just move on to the next town and repeat the process all over again. To say the least, it's very freaky.

[sandnsea]

21. Yep

There are people who lie and cause emotional damage who aren't sociopaths though, they're just screwed up. That's what I meant.

[alfredo]

12. Read "Conservatives Without Conscience" by John Dean.

It's about authoritarianism in the Republican Party.

[man4allcats]

13. Thanks for the reminder. It's on my reading list,

but I haven't gotten to it yet. I am anxious now to start it in light of what I have just read. :thumbsup:

[alfredo]

15. It is important that we understand the authoritarians.

You will understand why bush's numbers do not go any lower than the high to mid 20's.

[Triana]

18. I read that book a while back and posted the same/similar sentiment...

..here numerous times. bu$hit is a sociopath.

NO doubt about it.

[Sam Ervin jret]

23. He USED TO BE A SOCIOPATH now he's gone over the edge. He's now a Psycho/sociopath

I think it was a mid life change thing.

[NJCher]

24. Brains of sociopaths are wired differently

I read about sociopaths for around 25 years. I read tons of books on them and was finally able to quit after reading the research of Dr. Robert Hare, who enjoys a substantial reputation with the criminal justice people. Hare says the brain of the sociopath is actually wired differently. Hare finally solved my curiosity about this issue.

The irony of this situation is that these people need help but they are unlikely to get it because they're the ones in power. God save the rest of us from these types, who do indeed gravitate to positions of power because they need to. I thought yardwork's post to be most helpful in understanding this issue. I, too, have struggled with what it is about our system that allows these people to rise to the top. I now see that it is not the system per se (although it certainly facilitates it), but it is the characteristics and needs of the person. Yes indeed, while the rest of us are focusing on loving our families, pets, and working in careers that move our world toward being a better place to live, this 4 per cent is assiduously working on gaining control.

It's interesting that I had a conversation with another leftie a couple nights ago and we talked about the workplace. We discovered that neither one of us has any interest whatsoever in controlling other people. That's why it's hard for us to be bosses. I've been able to do that, however, with the "coach" metaphor, which is actually preferred by many workplaces. I just don't believe people put their heart and soul into anything when they're "bossed." If the "boss" can be more of a facilitator, though, helping the person find the right path, it's a different story.

If anyone cares to comment further, I'd like to read more about why and how our culture encourages sociopaths.



Cher

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

43. Like you, I've done a great deal of independent study.

It's amazing, the evolution of studies on the wiring. However, there is no conclusive evidence, yet, about HOW that wiring is created. The combinations nature produces are, well, infinite.

However, AT LEAST, we are getting better at spotting the signs/symptoms. We're still too cautious about managing the damage and fail to curb the behavior. What I see is an aweful lot of transference unto our kids rather than damage control over the adults. Kids see politicians allowed to behave like tyrants but are expected to behave, perfectly.

It's a cycle that's generating more carelessness because those with power can do what they please, without consequence. Why should anyone care?

[Triana]

50. Robert Hare's book - Without Conscience - talks about fMRIs on the psychopathic brain...

...shows some "interesting" differences in how their brains function as compared to a normal person's, particularly in the limbic region.

I'd like to see this done on GWB as well as a psychiatric assessment.

I have that book as well as Martha Stout's.

ANOTHER good book about psychopaths and how/why they rise to the top is "Snakes in Suits" which Robert Hare has co-authored. It helps explain how/why so many of these whackos end up being leaders/presidents/prime ministers/CxOs

I'm surprised this thread has picked up as many responses. I've done a fair bit of reading/research on this and posted about it before. I'm glad it's finally garnering some attention.

GWB is at he very LEAST a narcissist (NPD is a milder version of psychopathy). I'm almost certain he's a psychopath. I've posted that before too and again, glad to see someone else noticing that this country is being run by a dangerous crime ring of psychopaths, led by one of the biggest....

[hisownpetard]

52. I think he's what's called a "malignant narcissist." Sure sounds about right, doesn't it?

[Triana]

59. Yep - Sam Vaknin wrote a book about that. It's online...

...however Vaknin is himself an admitted narcissist so...nonetheless it's interesting to read what he says about malignant narcs:

http://www.escapeabuse.com/MSL8.htm

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. Aaaaahhhh

"wired differently"

That's interesting. I'd love to see the comparison "wiring configurations" in the normal and (socio)pathological brain. At the very least, it sounds a bit more empirical than the nonsense about "different consciences" that dominates the rest of the thread.

[NJCher]

95. just read Hare's books

He has graphics of brain scans in them.

There's other material, too, but it's been so long since I read about it that I can't recall the specifics enough to describe it. Has to do with composition of the brain.

Back in '91, a friend suffered a severe head injury in an auto accident. They had brain scans of him prior to the accident and were able to compare them after the accident. They could actually pinpoint the part of the brain that was injured. At the time it was thought the brain could not "rewire" itself and he received a huge jury award. This person was considered to be of genius-level intelligence, not just through scores on IQ tests but through life accomplishments (the accomplishments were presented during the trial). The fact that he was of such high intelligence had a much to do with the financial award.

Many years later, however, studies began emerging that indicated the brain is able to "re-wire" itself. I recall reading about that research because I wondered if he would have received such a high award had that been known at the time.



Cher

[alcibiades_mystery]

97. I have

fMRI and other such measures can do some very specific (and amazing) things, but their use in certain aspects of behavioral psychology (like diagnosing so-called sociopathology - itself a theoretically dubious category) is suspect at best, and certainly suspicious and unproven enough to preclude their use in formulating mental health policy.

[yardwork]

80. That you for your kind words! This is a fascinating and important thread.

I've also done a lot of reading and thinking about sociopaths/psychopaths. Now I want to read Dr. Hare's book.

Thoughts on why our culture encourages sociopaths. It might be as simple as bad luck. Maybe western culture had the bad luck to get grabbed by sociopaths early in its development, and the sociopaths bent our culture to their needs. Certainly a lot has been written about how western culture puts more value on material things than eastern culture. The nefarious influence of psychopaths from way back?

Or maybe eastern culture is more evolved than western culture. India and China, for example, have cultures that are very ancient. Perhaps it is not surprising that their languages, art, and values are more subtle, more complex than the western focus on temporal, superficial things. If so, perhaps this is a hopeful sign for humanity. Maybe western culture will catch up. Unfortunately, it looks like the opposite is happening. The focus on materialism and immediate gratification seems to be spreading throughout the globe, replacing higher values.

Entropy at work.

[2hip]

31. Sociopaths are wired differently

Lying, brain structure link

Looking into the brains of people who habitually cheat and lie, neuroscientists have found abnormalities in the area that controls higher thinking.

Less gray, and more white matter
Pathological liars have less grey matter and more white matter in their prefrontal cortex, according to a report in the October issue of the British Journal of Psychiatry. Gray matter consists of the cells that do the thinking, while white matter consists of the cells that connect them.

"Our argument is that the more networking there is in the prefrontal cortex, the more the person has an upper hand in lying," said study co-author Adrian Raine, a professor of psychology at the University of Southern California (USC). "Their verbal skills are higher. They almost have a natural advantage."

This is the first report on structural brain abnormalities in pathological liars, the USC researchers said.

http://www.health24.com/news/Mind_Psychology/1-930,33385.asp




              Edwards '08 tees!

[rocktivity]

37. Sound familiar?

Narcissistic Personality Disorder Symptoms

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior)...beginning by early adulthood...as indicated by...(at least) five...of the following:

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

FIVE symptoms qualify you to be diagnosed? I think Bush demonstrates ALL NINE symptoms!

:scared:
rocknation

[man4allcats]

45. No way I could disagree.

Nine out of nine for sure for Georgie!

[harmonicon]

53. that was the one, that list

I had a housemate once who I had "problems" with - well, the kind of problems that involved things like him forcing an illegal eviction on me and leaving voicemails attempting to blackmail me and threats of physical violence. I did nothing about it at the time because I thought the guy was such a completely sad and worthless sack of shit - I just couldn't bare being the person who would get a hopeless miserable person arrested and/or fired from a job over what should have been small potatoes. Now I regret that. This guy is trouble, and I should have had him locked up. I wasn't the first person he'd stolen from (nothing too pricey, mind you), and he'd actually started violence with others before, but now I know it will keep happening. Some day he's going to fuck with the wrong person who might land him in the hospital or worse. Ce la vie... the worst part is that I found out that some of my friends are now doing some sort of business with this guy, and there's a 90% chance it will end badly - poor fucking saps.

[hisownpetard]

104. I did nothing about it at the time because I thought the guy was such a completely sad

and worthless sack of shit - I just couldn't bear being the person who would get a hopeless miserable person arrested and/or fired
from a job over what should have been small potatoes."

Yup. That's exactly what they count on! They are keen observers of human nature and they know that most people will stop
at a certain point, and THEY will win. What made you stop pursuing it? Your conscience, which made you feel bad at the thought
of making someone lose their job.

Now, imagine if you didn't have one, the things you'd be able to do in pursuit of your goals, without any remorse or guilt whatsoever!

[harmonicon]

47. I didn't read the whole thing, but I read bits of it, and it was scary

I realized how many people I know personally who probably are clinically sociopaths - all this time I just thought they were total fucking dicks.

[hisownpetard]

51. They are not mutually exclusive!!!!!

[harmonicon]

54. oh, I know! They usually go hand in hand,

but now I feel more intelligent, and can talk about them in good company, by saying "sociopath" instead of "fucking dickweed cocksucker asshole".

[hisownpetard]

55. Oh. Okey-dokey, then.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

61. This book has

been on my to-read list for about 3 months, will get it from the library branch it's at next time I'm out that way.

[Perry Logan]

62. All the sociopaths in America have gravitated into one party. Could be useful...

[windoe]

63. Are the 'left' and the 'right'

parts of society not just projections of the (reversed) internal right and left parts of the brain? The right brain (and left of society) demonstrates more flexibility, creativity and instinctual natures. The left brain (and right society) deals with more structure, linear thought and institutional thinking. Of course society is really a continuum and the way the 'left' and the 'right' relate to one another can either be adversarial or harmonious. A balanced person/society has enough structure and flexibility. Unfortunately our society/the collective US has experienced a polarization, perhaps created by these sociopathic personalities, who have infuenced policies that are extremely authoritative, since this model allows them their absolute power structures. This internal/external split is represented by the shadowy relationship between people who are more left brained and most comfortable within a structure (fundamentalist thinking being the most extreme), and right brained people who feel constrained by structures, heirarchies and institutions(people living alternative lifestyles, creative types and philosophers, ect).

I strongly believe 'As within, so without'. Quantum Mind by Arnold Mindell is a fascinating read, explaining how (among other things!) the way we describe the world, our mathematics, physics, languages, have developed in ways directly relating to our physical form. I am oversimplifying the book since my bookmark is about 3/4 of the way through it where his physics went beyond my ability to digest it--will get back to it one of these days....
This is one fascinating thread!!!

[mcg]

64. The book "The Gift of Fear" is relevant to this.

"The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker talks about listening to the little voice that is telling us that something is wrong. The book focuses more on violence but it is still relevant in general.

The start of a review at Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Survival-Signals-Violence/dp/B00007MF53/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199114654&sr=8-1
"From Library Journal
Perhaps we have a bad feeling about someone we've just met, or a little gnawing perception that a situation just doesn't "feel right," or perhaps even a fear that a co-worker might do something harmful. What de Becker, renowned expert on violent behavior, explains here is that instead of shrugging off these fears, we need to listen to them, see why we're having them, and act accordingly. Far from being silly intuitions, often these can truly show when something is wrong and violence might be imminent; if listened to, along with information about how violent people behave, these feelings might protect us from harm. ..."

One problem is the viewpoint that fear is bad, it is an unpleasant emotion that we want to avoid. One way to avoid it is to ignore that icky feeling. However, if the feeling is warranted, this can lead us into big trouble. I remember ignoring that little voice more than once and paying huge prices. I pretended that the superficial charm I was seeing was real. I wanted to believe that everyone was nice. I was in denial about the fact that there are many bad people. Some will even act good and nice to in order to deceive. They play upon peoples' desire to be liked.

Proper fear is a gift to be listened to, sometimes it is good to be afraid, to be very afraid. A good quote to consider, whether one is Christian or not:
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Matthew 10-16
We need to have critical thinking about other people and ourselves.

[windoe]

67. GREAT book mcg~

A sign of 'burn out' is free floating anxiety. I read this book years ago (and reread it after 911) because I found myself so anxious all the time. I was working in a trauma center which didn't help, all kinds of shifts, and was watching waaaay too much cable TV (before going to bed!). This wonderful book taught me to distinguish between free floating anxiety and actual fear based on a real and present danger.
This book (along with disconnecting my cable TV!} helped me to live a much more comfortable life---and since then I have been able to recognize people right away who spend too much time watching FauxTV, allowing themselves to be victiimized by the predatory extensions of these sociopathic people--the corporate media.
An importaint point--I believe that corporations (that have been given civil rights) have become sociopathic entities--in that they are run mostly by these CEOs. They have a strong motivation to encourage fear, bafflement and polarization (fighting amongst ourselves!!) and compulsive behavior to support their extreme authoritative structure of society. Not all companies are sociopathic, but the ruthless mega giants no doubt are.

America does need to look in the mirror and ask how we collectively went off course to allow sociopathic personalities to thrive.

[yardwork]

82. I agree completely. We've allowed a few sociopathic corporations to take over.

Businesses are not inherently bad. However, we've allowed the worst of them to set the rules, and the rules allow the worst to thrive, while destroying the ones with any kind of social commitment.

The "free market" is a lie and it's also very bad for human beings. It's not a good idea to allow a few people to control so many resources.

[TexasLawyer]

98. corporations that have become sociopathic entities

This is the premise of the documentary film "The Corporation."

A review of the film:


The Corporation
Written by Michelle Haimoff
Thursday, 16 August 2007

If a single entertainment item could defibrillate our socially ambivalent culture into taking action against the corrupt state of the corporate world, The Corporation (2004) might be it. In this fast-paced and thorough documentary, filmmakers Mark Achbar and Jennifer Abbott cross-examine the management of corporate America, as well as its victims and critics, and leave us with a sense of paranoia and distrust that only a library of conspiracy books could match.

Through interviews with professors, CEO’s, writers, filmmakers, Wall Street traders and PR execs about what a corporation is (a legal person), we learn what a corporation isn’t (a legal person with a moral conscience). In fact, a corporation is required by law to put its bottom line above everything else, including the public good. The movie argues that the DSM-IV’s Personality Diagnostic Checklist would diagnose a corporation as a sociopath, lacking as it is in honesty, regard for others and remorse.

<snip>

http://thepanelist.com/Socially_Conscious/Culture-Celebrity/The_Corporation_20070816520/

[JustAnotherGen]

66. A Great Companion Book for you?

People of the Lie -

It's chilling. Someone recommended it to me this past summer re: a person in the perimeter of my personal life. . . but it's VERY applicable to people like Bush, Rove, Bush's Mama (a person of the lie if ever there was one), Newt Gingrich, Ghouliani. . .

[Didereaux]

68. Nature is always a spectrum...sociopath one end-overweaning touchy-feely the other.

I am not being facetious here. Beyond either end of that spectrum you find clinically dysfunctional brains(insanity).

[Batgirl]

70. I read this book a while back

because I was trying to figure out these recurring workplace patterns. I saw the same personality types at different companies, people who used strikingly similar tactics to achieve and maintain power. Most of them didn't actually contribute meaningfully to the job getting done. Most of them weren't particularly smart or talented. But they were all really good manipulators. They were all extremely gifted at taking credit when things went right and shifting blame when things went wrong. Because they're not restrained by any moral/ethical considerations, they tend to "win" more often than people who are reluctant to lie and cheat. Their ability to fool others with their charade probably reinforces an arrogant sense of superiority.

In the business world, at some point "management" became an abstract thing unto itself. They really don't have to know how to make or produce anything. It doesn't matter whether the company they work for makes blood thinners or vacuum cleaners, it's all interchangeable. Their job is just to be able to manage people. Of course I realize there are many decent, competent managerial types and executives. But I think this kind of job also attracts its share of manipulative sociopaths who would then be getting paid for doing what comes naturally to them.

I was and still am curious about how much actual self-awareness they have. Even though it probably doesn't make much difference to the final result. Some that I've known/worked for have seemed to genuinely believe the company would fall apart without their efforts. Even though in reality they caused untold problems, inefficiencies, and sucked energy away from staff members who had to work harder to achieve functionality because of problems created by the sociopath.

Of course it goes without saying how all this is perfectly illustrated by President Fuckup and his merry band of sociopaths.

[alcibiades_mystery]

77. Pure pseudo-science

It's astounding that we're starting to make health policy decisions based on such drivel.

The "conscience" as a scientific object! What laughable nonsense.

[yardwork]

83. Your comments are always charming and delightful.

What's your suggestion?

[alcibiades_mystery]

84. Thank you

I appreciate your memory of my commentary. Here I thought I was pissing into the wind, but I've managed to make an impression, however negative it may be.

My suggestion would be to avoid pseudoscience like fMRI-based diagnoses of sociopathology, and other reductionist concoctions that locate complex social processes in the brain (and specific brain regions) of individuals.

Cheers!

[yardwork]

86. Yes, you make a memorable impression whenever you post.

One person's pseudoscience is another's faith.

[alcibiades_mystery]

93. I agree

One person's pseudoscience is another's faith.

Neither of which are actual science, needless to say.

[hisownpetard]

105. Laughable, really? Ever hear of Enron or Tyco? Ever hear of a $26,000 shower curtain

and a matching $6,000 wastebasket? Ever hear about all the people who lost
the pensions that they'd spent a lifetime accruing?

Ya think either Ken Lay or Dennis Koszlowski had much of a conscience going for them?

Nah, I don't think so either.

[alcibiades_mystery]

106. That has nothing to do with this discussion

Pick a relevant topic, and craft your response around it. Otherwise, you just sound like an ignorant loon.

[hisownpetard]

107. It has everything to do with this discussion. Conscience cannot be measured with calipers or a scale

but it's absence can and has been noted and discussed in many valuable ways.

From the tone of your contributions to this thread, my guess it that you probably have never
known or had to live with a sociopath, other than yourself.:loveya:

[alcibiades_mystery]

108. I have no doubt that the concept works for particular purposes

That's neither here nor there with respect to the pseudoscientific claims of the OP, however.

The weakness of your argument is certainly indicated by your sad reliance on the personal attack. I'm a sociopath because I don't believe in the laughable connection between a philosophical ethical concept and specific regions of the brain? It's the usual nonsense. What most people really seem to like about this subject matter is that they can "judge" anyone who they haven't liked according to a "real" medical condition, which strikes me as dangerous beyond measure, ethically. These pseudoscientific claims about sociopathology would be funny - extremely so, since they are so clearly devoid of scientific or argumentative merit - but instead they are just dangerous, because real people get caught up in the stupidities, like the victims of phrenology.

[hisownpetard]

112. So, what's the weather like where you are?

[alcibiades_mystery]

113. Snowy and cold

:shrug:

[BlueIris]

87. OH MY GOD, I fucking LOVE "The Sociopath Next Door"!!!

It really helped me understand sociopaths.

[catchnrelease]

88. Yes!!!

I read this book earlier this year and every page screamed out BUSH! Really fascinating, especially in light of my closest girl friend having just ended a relationship (when I was reading the book) with a man that also fit the description to a T. One of the things that the book brings out that I find interesting is, as the title implies, that a sociopath doesn't necessarily have to be Ted Bundy. They are more likely to be an "average" person who causes grief in other peoples lives, not always a serial killer etc. Stout says that they are able to find and control so many people with little trouble because the rest of us can't fathom that someone could act as the socio does.

Another book in the same vein is In Sheep's Clothing, and I can't check who the author is at the moment, as above mentioned friend is now reading it.

I've been watching "Dexter" on cable and recently read the novels that the series is based on, both give the story, so to speak, from his perspective. (He is a serial killer socio/psychopath) I don't know what a psychologist would say about how close to reality the character is, but "he" is an interesting creation.

[Ivan Sputnik]

90. The question is why our society rewards this type of personality

while professing to abhor it. We are living in the United States of Hypocrisy on so many levels...

[windoe]

94. I would like to find a book on how to deal with sociopathy,

now that there is a consensus amongst many professionals (and here on this thread!) that this is rampant in the leadership. Sociopaths have an internal psychological split, perceiving the world also split. If they are in positions of power, their model of behavior is based not on interconnectiveness, trust and harmony amongst people, but one based on alienation, competition and ruthlessness.
This is why people who are peaceful- environmentalists, proponents of social programs, tolerance, openness to multiculturalism, philosophies and free thought are marginalized and character assassinated, because they are the ANTITHESIS of sociopathy. I believe by joining together and refusing to be forces and extensions of this disease, we can perhaps have some effect in our day to day lives.
I am not sure predatory behavior can be taken on head on, since it may in actuality feed the 'monster' and increase the behavior. This is certainly the conundrum of our times, what to do with sociopaths?

[Poiuyt]

96. Read "Bush on the Couch" by Justin Frank, MD

Book Description
With the Bush administration in permanent crisis, a renowned Washington psychoanalyst updates his portrait of George W.'s public persona—and how it has damaged the presidency.

Insightful and accessible, courageous and controversial, Bush on the Couch sheds startling new light on George W. Bush's psyche and its impact on the way he governs, tackling head-on the question few seem willing to ask: Is our president psychologically fit to run the country? With an eye for the subtleties of human behavior sharpened by thirty years of clinical practice, Dr. Justin A. Frank traces the development of Bush's character from childhood through his presidency, identifying and analyzing his patterns of thought, action, and communication. The result is a troubling portrait filled with important revelations about our nation's leader—including disturbing new insights into:

How Bush reacted to the 2006 Democratic sweep in Congress with a new surge of troops into Iraq
His telling habits and coping strategies—from his persistent mangling of English to his tendency to "go blank" in the midst of crisis
The tearful public breakdown of his father, George H. W. Bush, and what it says about the former president's relationship to his prominent sons
The debacle of Katrina—the moment when Bush's arrogance finally failed him
With a new introduction and afterword, Bush on the Couch offers the most thorough and candid portrait to date of arguably the most psychologically damaged president since Nixon.

http://www.amazon.com/Bush-Couch-Rev-Ed-President/dp/006143065X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199141379&sr=8-3

From Publishers Weekly
Bush Administration policies are not only a "great catastrophe" but the products of a disturbed mind, according to this provocative blend of psychological case-study and partisan polemic. Psychoanalyst Frank sifts through family memoirs, the writings of critics like Al Franken and David Corn and the public record of Bush’s personal idiosyncrasies for clues to the President’s character, interpreting the evidence in the rigidly Freudian framework of child psychoanalyst Melanie Klein. He finds that Bush, psychically scarred by an absentee father and a cold, authoritarian mother, has developed a galloping case of megalomania, characterized by a Manichaean worldview, delusions of persecution and omnipotence and an "anal/sadistic" indifference to others’ pain, with removal from office the only "treatment option." The author’s exegesis of Bush’s personality traits-the drinking problem, the bellicose rhetoric, the verbal flailings and misstatements of fact, the religiosity and exercise routines, the hints of dyslexia and hyperactivity, the youthful cruelty to animals and schoolmates, the smirk-paints an intriguing, if exaggerated and contemptuous, portrait of a possibly troubled public figure. But Frank’s attempts to translate psychoanalysis into political analysis are unconvincing. Indeed, if Bush’s reneging on campaign promises is a form of clinical "sadism," and his budget deficits an "unconscious attack on his own parents," then Karl Rove, the Cabinet, and both houses of Congress belong in group therapy with him.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0060736712/ref=dp_proddesc_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books

[Arugula Latte]

100. Bush has those mean, beady, lifeless "shark" eyes.

There is no empathy behind them.

[hisownpetard]

103. You're right. I think they're decals.

[Disturbed]

109. Is Busholini a Seriel Killer?

Some believe that he is. He has not killed anyone personally that we know of but
has he not ordered the killing of thousands?

[Echo In Light]

110. I recently started a similarly themed thread

Apparently if one applies this to Bush alone, it's okay. Apply it to corporate culture and people bring the torches and pitchforks...