OMG They just showed a soldier on my local news who had a German cross on his hat!!

[proud2BlibKansan]

I can't believe this. I was sitting here with headphones on listening to Christmas music and I looked up at the TV and saw a story about a group of National Guard coming home for Christmas.

They were showing the soldiers getting off a bus and they are not in uniform. Then this one gets off and he is wearing a hat that has a German cross on it!! A Nazi, Hilter lovin GERMAN CROSS!!!

I grabbed my remote and rewound and watched it again twice. This just blows my mind.

http://www.worldwar2aces.com/iron-cross.htm

This was awarded to German soldiers (our enemy in TWO world wars) for bravery. Why in hell is one of our troops wearing this German war symbol???

Is it fascism yet?

[magellan]

1. Was it the actual medal or a patch or drawn on?

There are a lot of white supremacists in our military now, that might explain it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. It was a patch on the front of his hat

My son tells me it is a motorcycle symbol.

My dad is spinning in his grave right now. Spinning. He fought the Nazis in WWII.

[magellan]

9. Was this it?

If so, that is a motorcycle patch. I found that one at ebay.

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Yes, that's what it looked like

[Aristus]

12. The Iron Cross dates back to 1813, and the symbol is still painted on German tanks and jets

to this day. Nazi-era Iron Cross medals have the swastika engraved in the center of the obverse, along with the year the medal was awarded. It doesn't necessarily mean the American soldier wearing the Iron Cross symbol is a white supremacist, but I'm with you on thinking he probably is. Anyone else would know better...

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Am I overreacting here?

Is it wrong for me to think our soldiers shouldn't be wearing Nazi symbols?

[Aristus]

16. I don't think you're overreacting.

I didn't see it for myself, so I don't know the degree of "nazification" the Iron Cross had. But American soldiers definitely should NOT be wearing Nazi symbols and getting away with it...

[Nailzberg]

19. I wouldn't consider it a Nazi symbol.

While the swastika was adopted by the Nazi Party as a symbol for the party, the Iron Cross is used by the German military to this day, and has been for almost 200 years. It wasn't a symbol of the party. German law wouldn't allow it to still be used if it were.

It is also prevalent throughout popular culture.

[TheMightyFavog]

62. IIRC, The Bundeswehr (German military) still maintains the Iron Cross as a decoration.

However, the only Iron Crosses that were handed out since the end of WWII were replacement medals for WWII Veterans, as the Iron Cross can only be awarded in wartime.

[magellan]

17. Here's why they use it

It's for the hardcore chopper guys. Used to be identified with Harley riders but is now more generic. I found an email to a blog about how it came into use:

http://www.choppersrule.com/edsez/edsez7.htm

Subject: Iron cross
Just last month I queried the editor of Street Chopper magazine with the question, "What does the Iron Cross represent or symbolize?"
Basically, he said that following WW2 (the BIG one as Archie Bunker calls it) our men came home with captured medals from the Germans that they "greased" and proudly displayed these medals on their leathers and scooters....

So it appears there's nothing negative to read into its display, although it would be nice if more bikers understood the genesis of this symbol and how it came to be used in the US. More understanding of WWII and what our guys sacrificed to kick fascist ass wouldn't go amiss today IMO!

[goodgd_yall]

26. Is that really so, or is this the explanation for public consumption?

I know a lot of bikers are racists. I tend to think it has something more to do along those lines.

[Occam Bandage]

31. The symbol has absolutely no connection with race at all,

other than perhaps a desired connection with the honor-centric values of Prussia.

[magellan]

32. Just because there are racist bikers

...doesn't mean what Street Chopper magazine wrote isn't true. Racists wouldn't have latched onto this symbol if it hadn't been for Hitler.

[Enthusiast]

66. God created.................

God created Kawasaki to keep niggers off Harley Davidsons. This was on a "biker's" T-shirt. It is a common theme to hate "niggers" and Japanese motorcycles in Harley Davidson "biker" circles. I've also seen many of the "Clinton is a traitor" patches. The hatred toward Japanese motorcycles clearly has it's roots in racism as Harley Davidson enthusiasts are far more tolerant of German BMW types.

[Occam Bandage]

75. "The hatred toward Japanese motorcycles clearly has it's roots in racism"

That might be a factor. A bigger factor (IMO) is that early Japanese imports were underpowered and extremely popular among non-"bikers", giving them a bad reputation from early on. Bikers saw them as an inferior product, and yet they gained market share quickly, threatening their beloved roaring hogs.

Even today, a Kawasaki is going to lack the angry roar of a Harley, instead possessing a relatively high-pitched whine--and is more likely to be in the hands of a hot-shot kid in his 20s than in a dyed-in-the-wool biker's.

[goodgd_yall]

86. I attended a biker's birthday party years ago

and one of the "games" was taking an axe to a Honda motorcycle.

[backscatter712]

18. I'm not one to jump to conclusions.

Maybe this guy's just a motorcycle fan - likes choppers. I see the iron cross a lot in the biker crowd.

[Toots]

72. Check out US Army's Sharpshooter Badge

illegal codepopupWindow('http://www.usmilitarystuff.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=1336&cherryoneid=d5b5251f6f869708b71b70cdfef85162')

[Bandit]

77. Here is a picture

[kysrsoze]

2. Doesn't necessarily mean he's a nazi. German pilots still wear the iron cross

Unfortunately, people associate it with the swastika b/c the nazis stole both symbols for their own deviant uses.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. It doesn't matter if he's a Nazi or not

Why would our military allow him to wear a Nazi symbol?

[Occam Bandage]

21. It's not a Nazi symbol. It's existed for hundreds of years, and is used by the Germans to this day.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. It is associated with the Nazis

You can't deny that.

[Occam Bandage]

44. Only among those who are wholly ignorant

of Germany, of military history, of Christian iconography, and of the biker subculture.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. So this isn't a Nazi medal?

[Occam Bandage]

51. Of course it is. See the little swastika? Now look at these:

1813, from the Napoleonic wars.


1870


1914


1957 De-Nazified replacement of 1939 medal you posted.


Current logo of the German armed forces.


You are wrong. You are completely wrong. Accept that and move on.

[silverojo]

46. Only IF it has a swastika on it

Please crack a book on militaria before you make such an uneducated comment.

[silverojo]

47. Only IF it has a swastika on it

Please crack a book on militaria before you make such an uneducated comment.

[entanglement]

91. Actually, the Swastika predates the Nazis by thousands of years

The Hindu (Indic) Swastika:


The Jain (another Indic) Swastika


Wikipedia has many more, from diverse cultures all over the world.

[MattSh]

85. Well, Germany is associated with the Nazis too...

Maybe he shouldn't be allowed to travel to Germany either.

There is a big difference between something associated with Nazism and a Nazi symbol.


IMHO

[Freddie Stubbs]

88. IF it used by the German military today, it must not be considered a Nazi symbol

Germany and several other European countries forbid even civilians from displaying Nazi symbols.

[goodgd_yall]

90. What's important here is the meaning to Americans

Apparently it's usage in this country among countercultures was after WWII. It's was a symbol associated with Germany. Americans, because of the war we just fought against Nazi Germany, associated the Iron Cross, at that time, with Nazi Germany. So why, was it adopted as adornment by certain groups. I maintain racism was part of it.

[Selatius]

37. He WASN'T IN UNIFORM. That's the big thing you missed. If he were, he couldn't wear the cross.

The military may own a soldier's ass, but it can't dictate what he wears when he isn't in uniform.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. And it's okay to wear a Nazi symbol?

[Occam Bandage]

39. It isn't a Nazi symbol. Get over it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_patt%C3%A9e
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_Cross_%28symbol%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Yes it is. And don't tell me what to get over

Go find some other thread to be rude in.

[Occam Bandage]

43. Um...no. It's not. It was used in Germany for centuries before the Nazis, and

is still used. It was not used to any particular extent by the Nazis. I assume the only reason you think it's a "Nazi symbol" is that your only exposure to Germany is through World War II movies.

See this:



That is the current logo of the German Bundswehr, or Federal Defense Forces. And in Germany, Nazi iconography is illegal. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Nazi party, or with the Third Reich.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. My dad was a foot soldier in the Battle of the Bulge

He was repulsed by this symbol and by the swastika too. That's how I recognized this when I saw it on the news. I remembered my dad talking about it when I was a kid.

I will take my father's word for it.

[Occam Bandage]

52. I'm sure he was indeed repulsed by German military iconography.

My grandfather was a Marine in the battle for Iwo Jima. He was irritated by so much as kanji characters until he died. I wouldn't use that as evidence that kanji are offensive.

[Nailzberg]

56. The German Tornado aircraft

Oh shit, it's a Nazi. How'd that guy sneak onto a US Air Base?:sarcasm:

[TheWatcher]

58. Trust me, he will.

[Occam Bandage]

59. I like how it's never,

"Oh, hey, guess I was totally wrong," but rather, "Man, isn't this guy such a jerk for showing me how I'm wrong?"

[donsu]

78. agree it is Nazi

nt

[Occam Bandage]

79. Based on what? Many here have posted visual evidence that it is not.

[Selatius]

55. I don't view it as a nazi symbol; however, tell me: What does the 1st Amendment say??? n/t

[Flarney]

3. Could it have been this?

I don't know if that would make it any better, but I think it's used in a logo for some brand of "chopper" motorcycle. Still...ugh.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. No I know about West Coast Choppers

That wasn't it. It was just a patch on a hat.

My DH loves that West Coast Choppers show. So my girlfriend and I were shopping a few months ago and she said "Oh, isn't this that show your DH likes? You should buy him one of these t-shirts!" So I look over and saw the German cross and said "My dad would come back from the dead to haunt me if I paid money for that Nazi symbol."

Sorry call me a prude but this is a GROSS symbol.

[BrotherBuzz]

5. I don't know about the ribbon but, I was awarded a cross looked like that

It was called the Bolo badge. I was awarded one for scoring the lowest passing score on the rifle range. I scored a 46 - marksman, but my buddies on either side of me scored 100 - expert.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. It was a patch on the front of his hat

Looked more like the first one in your picture.

[BrotherBuzz]

14. The Nazi's borrowed the cross for very effective symbolism

But there is nothing sinister about it in my eyes. Heck, even my grandfather, the Masonic Knight Templar, sported a natty "Knights of Malta" Cross on his sash when he got dressed up.

[lurky]

11. Was it this?

It's the logo for Independent skateboards. Looks like the Iron Cross, and lots of skateboarders sport their shirts, patches, stickers, etc.

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. No that's too round

[elshiva]

23. That reminds me more of the Canterbury Cross

It's much more rounded...


http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/canterbury.html

[Occam Bandage]

20. That's a Cross Pattée. It's a cultural symbol of the German military,

has been since the Teutonic Knights, and is to this day. It's also an extraordinarily popular symbol among bikers and in related social groups.

It has nothing to do with Hitler.

[Sanctified]

22. It's a Maltese Cross, it's not a Nazi symbol.

A variation of the Maltese Cross is used in the firefighter symbol, they are not Nazis.

[Skittles]

36. could have been his grandfather's

and I believe they were used in WWI also

[goodgd_yall]

24. Takes all kinds

to join the military. It's some type of counterculture thing usually used by racists.

[Occam Bandage]

25. It has absolutely nothing to do with racism or Nazism.

[goodgd_yall]

27. Why do you think bikers wear it?

Racism is very common among white bikers.

[Tejas]

29. bikers have worn it since the 50's for good luck, quit trying to change history.

[Occam Bandage]

30. Combination, I'd say.

1. Captured medals, as per other poster.
2. Traditional Prussian values of "strength" and "honor"*.
3. Declaration of rebellion against traditional social/moral codes in favor of #2.


*The Cross Pattée has been used by the Germans for centuries, and the German military still does to this day.

[Sanctified]

33. And why do Black Bikers where them?

[GA_ArmyVet]

71. Really so Racism is rampant among bikers

I admit there are some bikers who are racist, but there are also Bankers, Lawyers, Congressmen, racist throughout any Group or set or people you choose. THat being said, I would like to see the proof of your accusation that racism among bikers is more prevalent than in any other grouping of persons based on the vehicle that they drive or they hobby. I mean if a biker is burning a cross on a lawn,that makes him racist, not every other biker out there. Or do you want to play the stereotype game use you own version od discrimination.

I don't mean to be an ass or rude, but I ride every weekend, and to work when the weather allows. THe bikers I have seen would never let a fellow biker sit alone broken down on the side of the road. Are almost exceeding polite in public places. I also ride with all races, and even the hated Rice Burners. The hatred of Japanese Bikes comes as a result of the 70s bike wars in which Honda, Yamaha, and Kawasaki almost destroyed the beloved Harley Davidson Corporation. H-D has always pushed customer loyalty and the mystique of HD to sell a bike. So they are passionate about their love of American Made Motorcycles. They love the feel, the ride and the mystique that goes along with owning a HOG.

So if you could could you provide some background on your assumptions and accusations, not anecdotal evidence of individual events, but real studies identifying HD Riders as Racist, Criminal or some other foul thing.

[goodgd_yall]

87. Scientific studies don't exist

So sorry I can't accommodate you there; I base my assertions on my experience. Here's an interesting website about the subject:

http://members.tripod.com/ih71/index.html15

[magellan]

28. Its use by US bikers began after WWII

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2522674#2522827

[Tulum_Moon]

34. It was not swastika

Had he a peace sign you would be cheering. He may just be a biker. I see not one thing wrong with that.

[magellan]

35. You might have replied in the wrong place

I didn't say it was a swastika. :shrug:

[Laurier]

42. From the OP, what the heck is "A Nazi, Hilter (sic) lovin (sic) GERMAN CROSS!!!" ?

[Occam Bandage]

45. OP apparently believes "of predominantly German heritage" = "Nazi"

and is referring to the Cross Pattée, frequently referred to as the Iron Cross.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. My grandmother was "of predominantly German heritage"

and she was not a Nazi.

[Occam Bandage]

54. That's good. I'm sure she had ancestors who spoke German, if she didn't herself.

Every speech given by Hitler was given in German. Every order related to the Holocaust was written in German. Every soldier who committed atrocities heard their orders in German, and responded in German. Is German a "Hitler-loving Nazi language?"

No. Of course not, even if a few backward ignoramuses might think it is. Please draw parallels as you see fit.

[Crabby Appleton]

63. This cross is also used in various instances in the US Army

such as the previously mentioned US Army qualification badges



and appears in insignia of the US Army South Command

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_South


or the assorted British Commonwealth Victoria Cross awards

[gatorboy]

65. Same badge my step-father wore when he served

I had no idea he was a Nazi! :crazy: :rofl:

[Oeditpus Rex]

53. Hilter?

I don't like the sound of these 'ere "boncentration bamps." x(

[tammywammy]

57. The Iron Cross isn't a Nazi symbol

Though it was used by the Nazis. It's popular with bikers nowadays, though not because of it's slight-Nazi affiliation but because it's a "strong" symbol.

[Godhumor]

60. Here's the current WEC Light Heavyweight Champion, Doug Marshall

Scary looking man.

[DFW]

61. Generalizations are dangerous

This is like saying someone with an American military decoration
from World War II has committed, or supports, atrocities committed
by Americans in Iraq.

History goes back farther than 1933, 1923, or even 1889.

Das eiserne Kreuz (the iron cross) was first awarded as a military
decoration by Prussian king Friedrich Wilhelm in March of 1813, as
has been pointed out. It was not discontinued by the Nazis, but was
never associated with them by the Germans, and has been used on their
military hardware for almost as long as we have been using the eagle.
Sporting an eagle doesn't mean you support Reagan's invasion of Grenada
or Bush's disaster in Iraq.

If you see someone sporting a "Hakenkreuz," or swastika, now THERE is
a symbol you can associate with the Nazis, even if they didn't invent
it. It has been around for some 3000 years, before there even were Germans.

My wife is German, and her parents suffered greatly under the Nazis, and
so this got my attention.

Happy holidays from beautiful suburban Düsseldorf, by the way (make that
beautiful FROZEN suburban Düsseldorf--there are times when I miss Texas
more than others, and it's usually in the winter).

[Hardrada]

64. Und haben Sie auch eine froehliche Weihnachtzeit!

O Tannenbaum, O Tannenbaum!

[Enthusiast]

67. Many present day American racists..............

Many present day racists and white supremacists associate the iron cross as one that symbolizes racism. Now, they might be incorrect in this but that is why they wear the symbol. Check out the prison tattoos of the Aryan Brotherhood.

[DFW]

68. I am aware of that, as are many Germans

But Germans can no more do anything about that that we can
do anything about traitorous Republicans walking around with
the American flag in their lapel. It doesn't mean that our flag
per se was meant to be the symbol of oppression or injustice, it
just means that has been misused by some for purposes for which
it was never intended. Our flag was never intended to be a symbol
of evil, it has just been used by evil people. The same goes for
the iron cross. If a bunch of axe murderers decide to use Smurfs
as their mascot, it may make people shudder at the sight of a Smurf,
but it does not mean that Smurfs were ever meant to be the symbol of
gory slaughter.

[Occam Bandage]

76. I don't believe that's correct.

The Iron Cross is popular among white supremacists, but in many cases not quite because they see it as "racist." Instead, to them it represents the same thing it historically has: exceptionalism, strength, and honor. It may be common among racists for those reasons, but it is common among many other subcultures (most notably bikers, but also including skaters and others) for those reasons as well.

There are undoubtedly quite a few racists who are just as ignorant as the OP when it comes to the meaning of the symbol. However, to claim that a symbol is offensive and ought be removed because a minority misunderstands it is misguided.

[DFW]

69. Danke, gleichfalls!

Unser Tannanbaum steht schon im Wohnzimmer.

[Karenina]

80. I tried to teach my kiddies "O Christmas Tree"

and completely FAILED. Instead I LEARNED a new text...

O Tannenbaum, O Tannenbaum!
Die Oma liegt in Kofferraum
Der Opa macht die Klappe zu
Die Oma schreit, "Du dumme Kuh! und so weiter und sofort...

Geht's weiter mit irgendetwas über Feuerwehr but I couldn't save it as I was laughing my ass off while trying to maintain some semblance of order with a class of 4 year-olds who KNEW the had me. :rofl:

[Hardrada]

82. Die Kinder sind gute Dichter. Die Musik is auch "O Maryland,

My Maryland,"

"Avenge the patriotic gore/that flecked the streets of Baltimore" u.s.w.

[Bright Eyes]

70. Did he look like this guy?

[B Calm]

73. EXCUSE ME... isn't that the Maltese Cross? Identified as the symbol of an order of Christian warrior

known as the Knights Hospitaller or Knights of Malta.

[B Calm]

74. Having spent an entire month in Valleta, Malta in 1969, I think I

know what it is!

[B Calm]

81. The island of Malta was the most heavily bombed place on earth

during WW2. The Black Maltese Cross was NAZI.

[TahitiNut]

83. Are you sure it wasn't this?

It's the Army "Marksman" medal (the lowest of three levels of qualification with various weapons) and also comes in a darker finish.

:shrug:

[BattyDem]

84. It doesn't necessarily mean "nazi" - he could be a chopper enthusiast.

http://www.choppers.com/iron_cross.asp

:-)

[Freddie Stubbs]

89. Are you sure it wasn't a West Coast Choppers sticker?

:shrug:

[aikoaiko]

92. "A Nazi, Hilter lovin GERMAN CROSS!!!" maybe, maybe not.