"Will Tasers Ever Be Outlawed?" They Should Be

[shance]

Will Tasers Ever Be Outlawed? They Should Be




Excerpts:


"I could have sworn there is a law on the books that prohibits cruel and unusual punishments.

Tasers are cruel and dangerous.

Lets take a look at how a Taser works.

Two small wires with barbed fish hook like tips are propelled from a device resembling a handgun, the barbed points enter a persons body and 50,000 volts are sent coursing through their tissues. It literally overloads and temporarily fries the nervous system. Think about that a moment.

Whats next?

Using bare-ended extension cords to electrocute confessions out of suspects?

Lets look at a couple of recent news stories to drive the point home overzealous law enforcement is getting their jollies using the devices against non-violent suspects.

Lets call those suspects ordinary American citizens, as that is what they are.

Man who died after Taser was drinking - Torres delivered the first, five-second burst after Gray ignored an order to show his hands, Cpl. Jennifer Bailey said. The deputy delivered the second jolt while Gray was lying on the ground, face down with his hands hidden, she said in a statement. He was pronounced dead at Frederick Memorial Hospital about 2 1/2 hours later.

Police were awaiting autopsy results on the cause and manner of his death, Bailey said.� Baltimore Sun

Ask a politician a question, get tased.

Tasered Florida Student on Palast Report - The student shocked by a taser gun last month at the University of Florida while questioning Senator John Kerry will appear today on The Palast Report on Air America Radio.� Sccop.nz


Attorney claims cover-up in Taser death investigation - The attorney for the family of Jarrel Gray has a theory about why, after more than two weeks, the Frederick County Sheriffs Office has waited to offer new details about the 20-year-old death. �We smell cover-up, attorney Ted Williams said on Tuesday. �... What is happening is that is attempting to change the facts to protect and suit the offices statement, so there is some concern here. - Gazette

Not tasered once, but many times

Sheriff's Office is sued over 2005 taser death - The family of a man who died two years ago after being repeatedly tasered by Larimer County sheriff's deputies during an arrest is suing the Sheriff's Office claiming excessive force.� Coloradoan

Let's tase him multiple times...

Family Suing Over Taser Death - We've learned that the family of a man who died after being tasered by police has filed a lawsuit. It all happened in Shelby Township back in August. Police there found 49-year-old Steven Spears running through traffic wearing only his underclothes. Five officers then used tasers to catch him.� WLNS

If once works great, then more than once should really fry this guy...

Second Taser death this week - A man died Tuesday after struggling with Jacksonville police who used a Taser more than once to subdue him, marking the city's second such death in three days.� Jacksonville.com

Taser incident breaks mans back (from muscle contractions)

Results in on Quitman Taser death - Quitman - An autopsy shows a Quitman man who died after being tased by a police officer suffered a broken back during the struggle. He died October 1st shortly after an officer used a taser on him outside a convenience store in downtown Quitman.” – WALB

Get stuck in an airport, lose your life by being tasered to death...

Vancouver to make airport changes after Taser death - Western Canada's biggest airport announced changes Friday prompted by the death of a Polish traveler lost in the terminal for nearly 10 hours before panicking and dying in a violent police arrest. Robert Dziekanski's case made world headlines after an amateur video of his death was released last month, showing police repeatedly stunning the distraught traveler with a Taser less than 60 seconds after they first approached him. " AFP

Individually the problem doesnt seem to be rampant, however, if you read through the news looking for Taser and Taser Death this dangerous issue become all too apparent.

Cops with Tasers are electrocuting, torturing and killing people.

Tasers are murder weapons without physically laying hands on the victim.

Murder is murder folks and it is time to hold law enforcement accountable for the murder of our family, friends and neighbors.

Maybe more Taser victims should sue law enforcement for being tased, if enough citizens did that I think you will see less Taser incidents.

The company that makes the Taser and other devices run out of business and criminally prosecuted; all they seem to make are portable torture devices."

http://www.thebigflicker.com/2007/12/09/Will+Tasers+Ever+Be+Outlawed+They+Should+Be.aspx

[KG]

1. look, just do what the kindly officer asks, and there won't any tazering

:eyes:

[arikara]

12. Unfortunately, they often don't give a person the chance

They came bursting in the door of a charity here a couple weeks ago screaming and yelling like they were on a tv show. They took down a man who was quietly speaking to the receptionist, splitting his head open in the process. Then they tasered him twice because he didn't open up his hands fast enough. He didn't have a chance. There were mothers with little children all over the place, terrified out of their wits. A disgusting display that never made the news because the (wrongly arrested) person didn't die.

[China_cat]

15. Everybody says 'well, if they didn't have the taser, they'd have to shoot'

and that's right. But cops are more willing to think first before they shoot and hesitate to take a life unless it's absolutely necessary. I've not heard yet of a cop shooting someone having a diabetic episode but I have heard of several being tazed...more than once at times. I've never heard of a pregnant woman being shot at a routine traffic stop, but I have read the report of one being tazed.

And on it goes.

Tasers allow cops, some of who are bullies to start with, to torture people and get away with it where they know they wouldn't survive an inquiry into the shooting of the same person. Very few tasering incidents are ever settled in favor of the victim, the cops are given a pass on it because it's 'less than lethal'. Except when it isn't and more people are dying from this weapon.

[readmoreoften]

46. Exactly. Yes, it's safer than a gun. But why would you shoot someone mouthing off to a cashier?

Would the cop have shot the 15 year old girl crying hysterically because she broke curfew? Would the cop have shot the kid who asked Kerry the question about skull and bones? Would the cop have shot the motorist who said "why am I being pulled over? this is bull." Would the cop have shot the grad student who didn't have his ID on him in the library during midterms?

If the answer is yes to those questions. Then we should thank the lord for tasers because what we'd be living in would be beyond a police state: it'd be an assassination state.

[uppityperson]

32. It would be nice if that were true.

Local guy got tased when pulled over for driving while in diabetic shock. He couldn't comply because his body was incapable, so they tased him.

[onenote]

2. they won't be -- at least not as a law enforcement tool

I'm less troubled by the availability of tasers as a law enforcement tool than with their growing availability to the general public. Just as I think that there should be restrictions on handgun ownership, I think taser ownership should be limited. However, when it comes to law enforcement, the fact is that cops can kill someone with a handgun more easily than with a taser and there is no chance that the use of handguns by cops is going to be outlawed so, it necessarily follows, neither will the the use of tasers.

[IDemo]

3. My biggest problem with these things, from a strictly technical view

High voltage is a very trivial thing to create in an electronics circuit.-> http://www.play-hookey.com/ac_theory/ps_v_multipliers.html

So why do Taser and many police forces feel that 50 thousand volts and up is an appropriate level to apply to people when compliance is the desired result, unless street punishment is what is actually desired? If you want to get somebody's attention right now, and make him/her comply without turning them into a writhing mass on the concrete, a very much lower voltage device would do just that.

And yes, I am aware "it's the amps that kill" in an actual electrocution, but it is still the volts which are driving those amps through your body resistance.

[shance]

4. People report burning flesh smells after individuals being tased.

Who knows the extent of the internal injuries being inflicted on citizens?

[HardWorkingDem]

6. Most likely...

they are smelling the taser parts; especially if the barbs are not used.

[HardWorkingDem]

5. Sigh...I've been tased...good tool in hands of the responsible..

I'm not a shill for the company that produces the main taser used by law enforcement, but have been told that out of all the lawsuits filed so far, not one suit has been successful.

With that, one thing people who scream about the use of taser refuse to acknowledge is the complexity of the human body. In addition, these people also refuse to acknowledge the prior health and condition of the person being tased. They ignore if the person has been using drugs or other substances and how most people who have died have been doing just that.

Take the man who died in the airport. From the little part I have read, it does not appear the tasing killed the man, but instead compression of his neck.

And with all things, tools used are only as good as the hands they are being used in.

Also, I've been tased and would rather be tased than hit in the head with a nightstick, sap or sprayed with pepper spray.

And it's not the volts that are important. Not an electrician, but volts aren't the important factor. It's amperes.

[IDemo]

8. "it's not the volts that are important. " Incorrect

See my post directly above. I'm an engineering electronics technician. Those amps* aren't floating through your body on their own initiative. They are directly proportional to the ratio between the voltage output of the device and the total internal resistance of the Taser along with your body's resistance, which may vary widely from person to person. The voltage level is very definitely important.

* In a Taser, actually only milliamps, or thousandths of an Ampere generally enter the victim.

[High Plains]

58. Funny. Those heath conditions don't kill the people UNTIL THEY'VE BEEN TASED.

I've noticed a trend among cop-compliant county coroners in these cases: It's never the tasing that kills them; it's "excited delirium."

[aikoaiko]

7. Tasers are useful tools. Banning them is silly.

But there needs to be safety checks on them to make sure they work as intended, and much training and accountability for their use.

[Sanctified]

9. Tasers are not used as a form of punishment.

They are used to quickly subdue a person with the least amount of danger to the officer and people around them, if tasers are cruel then batons are barbaric.

[TheUniverse]

14. Bullshit.

Cops use them all the time as punishment. I agree tasers have a legitimate use, but you cant tell me there aren't any bad cops out there who dont like to "play with their toys."

[onenote]

17. but that argument would suggest banning batons, guns, fists...

since bad cops abuse all of those things.

[TheUniverse]

24. Wasn't arguing anything.

Just keeping people honest.

[HardWorkingDem]

21. Then single them out...

Quit lumping all of uses of the taser under one umbrella.

I could give you scenario after scenario where the use of a taser had a much better outcome than any other tool available. Not only that, instead of just reading headlines like, "Cops Tase Pregnant Woman," take the time to examine the entire incident and quit jumping to automatic conclusions.

[tekisui]

10. Innocent people have died after being tazed.

Enough said.

[shance]

11. List of Taser deaths in the past two months

List of Taser Deaths Over the Past Two Months

Sammy Baker - Quitman, Georgia - Oct. 1, 2007
Veteran Sammy Baker, 59, was Tased by an officer outside a convenience store in Quitman, Georgia, causing him to fall to the ground. The fall caused Baker to dislocate and fracture his spinal cord and ended in his death.

Robert Dziekanski - Vancouver, Canada - Oct. 14, 2007
A 40-year-old Polish immigrant who spoke no English, Dziekanski became distraught when he couldn't connect with his mother at the Vancouver International Airport. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police arrived on the scene and, after only 20 seconds and no attempt to investigate the situation, began Tasing him. Even after he had fallen to the ground and was restrained, police continued to Tase him, resulting in his death.

Quilem Registre - Montreal, Canada - Oct. 17, 2007
Registre, 38, was Tased on Oct. 14 during a traffic stop. Police say he was intoxicated and aggressive and that they used the Taser in order to subdue him. He went to the hospital in critical condition and died three days later.

Jarrel Gray - Frederick, Maryland - Nov. 18, 2007
Police responded to a fight between four people in an apartment complex in Frederick, Maryland. Gray, 20, was Tased and fell unconscious. He was taken to the hospital were he was pronounced dead.

Christian Allen - Jacksonville, Florida - Nov. 18, 2007
Allen was pulled over by police for playing music too loud in his truck. Allen reportedly shoved an officer before he and his passenger ran away. He was Tased after a struggle with the officers. He went into cardiac arrest and died.

Jesse Saenz - Albuquerque, New Mexico - Nov. 18, 2007
Police say 20-year-old Jesse Saenz struggled with officers and that they had no choice but to Tase him. They say they Tased him only once. However, a witness says there was no struggle and that the police Tased Saenz for about five minutes. Saenz was transported to the county detention center where he died.

Unidentifed Man - Jacksonville, Florida - Nov. 20. 2007
A man whose identity has not been released fled the scene of a car crash and tried to break into a nearby home. The man reportedly fought with the officer and tried to bite him. The officer Tased him three times. He was pronounced dead at the hospital.

Howard Hyde - Halifax, Nova Scotia - Nov. 22, 2007
Hyde, a paranoid schizophrenic who had gone off his medication, was Tased by police during booking after they said he became unruly. He died a day later.

Robert Knipstrom - British Columbia, Canada - Nov. 24, 2007
The 36-year-old British Columbia resident died in the hospital four days after being Tased, pepper sprayed, and beaten with batons by Canadian police after acting agitated and combative in a store.

http://politics.healthdiaries.com/list-of-taser-deaths-over-the-past-two-months.html

[HardWorkingDem]

22. Do you have any idea the number of tasings in a year?

And I bet the autopsies of each of these people showed an underlying cause of death other than the tasing.

Heck, I bet incompetent doctors kill more patients a year with a scalpel than cops do with tasings.

[High Plains]

59. Wow, a real live apologist for police misconduct and torture.

I'm sure all those people deserved to die, right?

How did cops handle these cases before the taser? They didn't just shoot everybody, did they?

[TheUniverse]

13. I dont want tasers to be outlawed.

But they should only be used in the case of a lethal or extremely severe threat. I would like to see cops who use them for other reasons to be fired, for example the cops in the "Don't taze me bro" incident.

[onenote]

18. the cops in Florida used them within the written guidelines

maybe the guidelines should be changed, but the cops weren't out of line

[TheUniverse]

25. They are allowed to taser someone twice who has already been secured?

Im sure they broke some rule, and the "internal police investigation" was complete horseshit. If they didnt break police procedure than didnt broke constitutional guidelines of no punishment without a trial.

[Ignis]

31. Punishment: that's exactly the problem.

Someone with a loud mouth in an airport doesn't require pain compliance.
Someone who disagrees with a corporate policy doesn't need pain compliance.
Someone who objects to a pat-down doesn't require pain compliance.

Who are we protecting in these situations? :shrug:

[tyedyeto]

36. And the angry venting lady at Best Buy deserved to be tasered? n/t

[Orsino]

20. Yeah. Potentially lethal force should only answer potentially lethal force...

...and in the hands of well-trained officers.

[HardWorkingDem]

29. Watch the video....those cops did nothing wrong - nothing.

If you watch that video, the man is continuing to flail while the police are telling him to put his hands behind his back. You can even see his free hand just before they tase him.

Also, if people think it is so easy to handcuff a person and think the amount of cops in that video clip is unreasonable, I suggest he or she try it with a friend and ask them to just minimally resist. It is not easy to handcuff a person that does not want to be handcuffed.

[Truthiness Inspector]

42. Would you just stop it:?

You might end up giving people a clue.

[TheWraith]

16. Use of a taser should be treated just like the use of a handgun.

Period. The taser is just barely sublethal, but a handgun can be too. A police officer should treat them identically: weapons of absolute last resort. Not a remote control to make people do what you want.

[HardWorkingDem]

23. You are completely wrong...

Any cop who choses to use a taser in a deadly force incident should have his or her tactics strongly examined.

I just wish a lot of people tossing their opinion on these tools would have to deal with some of these incidents on a regular basis and realize that every tool available is only as good as the hands it is in.

[tyedyeto]

37. Why? Numerous deaths have occured because of tasers

You believe a taser is NOT Deadly Force? I beg to differ. And tell the families of those who have DIED from tasering in an angry but non-threatening situation that the cops were justified in their use.

Death-by-taser is becoming one of the most lethal forms of cop murder in angry but non-lethal situations.

To all Americans: NEVER raise your voice in any public situation... you could die by taser.

[Truthiness Inspector]

39. Bullshit

TASER is not deadly force. If you believe it is, you would find no diff between the use of a TASER and the use of a Glock 40.

Advice for you: Go on a ride-along with the PD/SO in your area and then get back to me.

[readmoreoften]

40. Yeah. It's not deadly force. It just kills people 'sometimes'.

Hey tough guy, get back to me with statistics on how often cops accidentally kill people by restraining them without tasers or guns.

[Truthiness Inspector]

41. LOL

I am not a "tough guy."

My request is simple: Show me that TASERS cause death.

[HardWorkingDem]

54. Sadly...

it happens more than you know.

Ever heard of "excited deliriums".....or how about the Canadian in the airport just a short time ago.

[HardWorkingDem]

53. Show me where....

any forensic pathologist has ruled that the taser has CAUSED the death of the person. As far as I know, it has not been done yet.

And why do people like you always accuse people of claiming people support those who break the law or abuse people when a person tries to point out something?

I mean, I like cars and think they are good conveniences in our country, but from your thinking for me to like cars must mean I also like drunk drivers who kill families.

[Eurobabe]

19. Now they are packaging them especially for women, in pink of course

:eyes:

Price? 199-250USD.

Nice stocking stuffer. :sarcasm:

[uppityperson]

33. Like these ones? Introducing the Pink Stinger....

http://inventorspot.com/articles/tampon_security_system_4222
"Ladies can replace that monthly period with an exclamation mark as feminine hygiene goes lethal with The Pink Stinger, a stun gun creatively disguised as a tampon...except for the buttons, prods and high voltage. This weapon of mass absorption aims to target a niche market consumer, that being the tampon wielding women who desire private and discreet security in a friendly familiar package."


Just, um, be careful to not grab the double tampon when you're in a rush in a stall, ok?

[Ignis]

26. Using pain compliance is torture. K&R. (nt)

[Robb]

27. No. Using pain compliance is brutal.

Torture is also brutal. But pain compliance is not torture.

See earlier discussions re: not all slacks are chinos, but all chinos are slacks.

[Swamp Rat]

38. No, using 'pain compliance' is torture by definition:

torture

�noun
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.

�verb (used with object)
6. to subject to torture.
7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
8. to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips!
9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.
10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).

compliance

�noun
1. the act of conforming, acquiescing, or yielding.
2. a tendency to yield readily to others, esp. in a weak and subservient way.
3. conformity; accordance: in compliance with orders.
4. cooperation or obedience: Compliance with the law is expected of all.
5. Physics.
a. the strain of an elastic body expressed as a function of the force producing the strain.
b. a coefficient expressing the responsiveness of a mechanical system to a periodic force.

I assume you know the definition of 'pain'.

[HardWorkingDem]

28. Wish I lived in your world....

The one thing that is really troubling about being in law enforcement is the complete lack of objectivity and real knowledge the general citizen does not have when it comes to policing and physical confrontation.

The main goal in getting people to do what one wants them to do is to get them to do it with the least amount of force, resistance and physical confrontation possible.

I suggest people who think we live in such a peaceful world where "pain compliance" or the use of pressure points is torture is to do a web search for videos on the internet of people attacking the police or any other citizen. We do things for a variety of reasons that the general public simply does not have the experience with.

(And do take this for a defense of those that abuse or break the law or use their authority wrongly, because it is not that at all.)

[Ignis]

30. Well, this may blow your mind...

But I would rather that precise pain compliance be taught using pressure points than haphazard use of tasers by LEOs.

:hi:

[Sanctified]

34. My head just exploded.

You ever watch IFL or UFC, if it were possible to subdue a man with pressure points I think these guys would learn it.

[HardWorkingDem]

35. Use of pressure points IS pain compliance...

Wrist locks, manipulating nerves and other pressure points ARE pain compliance. But again, it all comes down to who is using these tools.

[killbotfactory]

43. Subduing someone who poses a threat is one thing

Police seem to be using tazers much more liberally than that.

[readmoreoften]

44. Maybe you people should stop tazing angry customers and protesters and we'll take you seriously

I've seen videos of the 'scary criminals' you folks have been tazing recently. Sure, there may be a time and a place for tasers in lieu of deadly force. But you people use them all the time and you can't be trusted with them. Someone's shouting at a clerk in a box store: taze 'em. A grad student who forgot his ID at the library doesn't want to leave because it's finals: taze him seven or eight times.

Sorry, the world is no more dangerous for cops than it was 20 years ago. Angry women yelled at clerks and people shrugged their shoulders. Grad students were told to show ID by rent-a-cops and librarians vouched for them and everyone calmed down. Twenty years ago, if a motorist wasn't subservient enough for your taste you just wrote another ticket--you didn't shock the person into submission.

I've known some good cops. I've had cop buddies. I've also known cops on the take. I've been warned by cops to watch out for other cops. I've known cops who lost their badges for selling the drugs they were supposed to be confiscating. I knew a cop who moved to Miami and became a lounge singer because, in his words, he was "sick of puttin' people in jail for just livin.'" I knew a group of cops into S&M who used to supply a few dungeons in Philadelphia with equipment. Those cops also happened to be the worst racist pieces of shit I'd ever met in my life. I know a police force in a small city that is run by a local crime family. Half the family are criminals. The other half keep their noses clean and become cops so they can run business from the inside. Maybe where you're a cop it's not like that. But where I grew up, that's what was going on (and I'm sure in some cases is still going on.)

Some cops are good. Some cops are so far from good it's not even funny. I don't trust anyone's judgment just because they're a cop. A taser should be used, with restraint, at times when you would use a gun. If your mind has become so fragile from 'fightin the good fight' that you truly believe hysterical young girls breaking curfew, unarmed grad students stressed from exams, moms frazzled from holiday shopping, and sarcastic motorists need to be restrained with electrical shocks, then it's time you take a break or retire: because you've become the danger you're supposed to be protecting us all from.

There is no reason why a good cop should make excuses for a cop with bad judgment. If cops stopped defending one another automatically, people might trust them a little more.

[HardWorkingDem]

51. And point me to where I have even remotely defended...

any of the sort of people you have described?

In fact, if you look at almost every post I've made in this thread, I have added the caveat these things are only as good as the hands they are in.

And you are incorrect about your claim of the world is no more dangerous today than it was 20 years ago.

And since you go on about the people you "know," let me tell you about a person I used to know - he was a wonderfully family man, father of five children who was shot and murdered. And that is what this is all about to me: good police having good tools to make sure they go home at night.

So if people want to pull out anecdotes of "torture" or whatever, have at it, because if one of these tasers does what it is supposed to do, then good for it.

As for accusing me of being something I'm not, I suggest maybe you ride along with a cop for some time and maybe try to look at things through his or her eyes before making such disgusting judgments and comments.

[Recursion]

48. I wish a lot of cops lived in our world

You know, the world where tasers are used to end a life-threatening situation, rather then to end situations cops find annoying.

Tasers should not be used to gain compliance from a non-threatening subject.

[Occam Bandage]

45. I think a combination of bullets and nightsticks will be much safer.

I am also insane.

[Recursion]

47. We learned how to make your own taser in circuitry class

all it takes is a disposable camera and two wires.

[ileus]

49. Bring back the wood shampoo...I'm with you on this one.

At least from the Criminals POV. With the billy club police have to get within reach of a criminal, giving the bad guy a better chance of overpowering and killing the officer that's offending him/her, I mean we want to be fair to both parties after all. I can't imagine why we'd want to give law enforcement a tool that can knock a criminal to the ground as well as a firearm. Hell why even have law enforcement anyway....if there's not cops there'd be no crime.

[donsu]

50. agree - outlawed - tasers are loved by the sadistic

nt

[HardWorkingDem]

52. Send me a ticket....

I want to become a member of your FantasyLand community where people don't kill cops, fight with cops or attack other citizens and all hum beautiful songs and hold hands in peace.

[High Plains]

60. The train for the totalitarian police state is now departing on Track One

Don't be late!

[Alexander]

55. Tasers should be outlawed for the police.

They obviously can't be trusted with these things.

[LostInAnomie]

56. Yes, officers should try using kind words and hugs...

... to subdue the knife wielding man on PCP.

I don't know what kind of world some people on here live in where they think that police (the people sworn to serve and protect them) shouldn't have all the technology available to them to subdue people that wish them harm. It's as if they believe all police are sadistic monsters looking to do harm to the innocent.

[Truth2Tell]

57. K&R Ban em now!