Hopefully this post will generate more light than heat.

[readmoreoften]

Please bear with this post. I know it's long.

There has been a lot of hard feelings over the McClurkin/Ex-Gay issue over the past few months, and it hit me that some DUers simply don't understand the actual goals of the ex-gay movement. I realized that this communication gap we're having is more than just quibbling over candidates, it's a fundamental lack of awareness of many straight people about what LGBT people are really facing, about what we've experienced in the past, and what we fear for our future. A good example of this occurred when someone posted a poll asking which is worse: supporting anti-gay marriage legislation or having an ex-gay speak at a rally. Many were surprised that some folks said allowing an ex-gay to speak at a rally is as bad or worse than discriminatory legislation. I'd like to explain what to many might seem purely irrational.

An 'ex-gay' spokesperson is not just some harmless buffoon with low self-esteem. The ex-gay movement is not just a group of misguided Christians who want to help. The movement seeks to undermine the very existence of the LGBT community. Its goal is to prove that gays, lesbians, and transgendered people are not just sick (if they were sick, they'd go to the doctor, right?) but in fact demonically possessed. Let us remember that fundamentalist Christians don't just have a deep and abiding faith in God; they also believe in the Other Guy. And just as they are soldiers for Christ, they believe that there are soldiers for the Other Guy. There are three groups of people who are the Five Star Generals of the other guy: pro-choice doctors, scientists, and gays. While pro-choice doctors are an example of good-gone-bad and scientists are an example of the search for knowledge gone solipsistic, gays are the agents of pure and irredeemable corruption. You can't fight an enemy without actually, you know, fighting. And they are advancing on the ex-gay front. The Southern Poverty Law Center considers them part of a larger coalition of hate groups.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=844
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=847

The 'ex-gay' warriors put LGBT young adults and teens into conversion centers where they are isolated, depersonalized, mentally, and sometimes even sexually abused. They are isolated from their families for months and sometimes years. The ex-gay movement also targets public school children, giving pamphlets to those they feel might be "at risk" for "becoming gay." In an environment where LGBT kids are already subjected to daily beatings, torture, and mocking, the 'ex-gay' movement comes in to make sure they have no allies. They give the hatred and violence a gentle, religious, and authoritative face.

YouTube - How Can Lies Be Truth? -An Examination of the "Day of Truth"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI4-eDG3Bb0&feature=related

The ex-gay movement is composed of the most extreme elements of the anti gay marriage movement. These aren't just the fictional 'joe six-pack' who can't wrap his head around two men kissing. These are people who believe that LGBT people are demonically possessed destroyers, who as Donny McClurkin says "kill our children." They have an irrational hatred of gay people, blaming them for everything from the destruction of the Black family http://www.urbancure.org/dev/pagedetails.asp?SubCatID=162 to Nazism and Serial Killing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pink_Swastika to the destruction of the Twin Towers http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/14/Falwell.apology/ In other words, these people believe that we are responsible for every serious problem in American and maybe human history. They don't simply want to stop us from getting married. Logic would dictate that, since we are agents of Satan and the root of all social ill, they want to eradicate us completely. There are millions of them. Here are some of the most blunt examples of folks who want to exterminate us.

http://100777.com/homosexuality
http://www.covenantnews.com/rudd060607.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Sodomy/gay_tolerance.htm
http://www.cclmaine.org/artman/publish/Opinion_5/hating_sinner.shtml
http://www.skepticfiles.org/atheist/soundoff.htm

This last article seems like a small, handmade site. But the man being interviewed is a part of this organization--> http://www.chalcedon.edu/ If you think that this sounds extreme and note that many anti-gay Christians explicitly say that they do not "hate" gays or want violence in the streets, you should look more carefully at what they are saying. An example from the Christian Civil League Record (in the above set of links):

The fact is that you can judicially hate someone, but still talk to them civilly, still love them as your enemy, still pray for them (...) many Christians today seem unable to get their mind around this concept. That is because we have become so deeply influenced by the heathen culture around us which identifies hate - and love - as primarily, if not exclusively, emotional issues. Love and hate are seen strictly as emotions, and very intense emotions, therefore they necessarily lead to predictable actions - and that's just the way it is.

You see this in comments by some people who oppose the death penalty. Often such people will liken the death penalty to "revenge." This, of course, is nonsense. If a lynch mob killed someone to execute vigilante "justice," that would be revenge, but a judge who issues an order for execution after a person has been properly tried in a court of law and found guilty, is exercising a judicial function, not acting on passion. Anyone who can't see the difference is lacking in elementary Christian theological categories.

Before the 2004 Election, Karl Rove had a brilliant idea on how to create civil war in the Democratic ranks. He funded an anti-gay Black church to publish magazine inserts in Sunday newspapers throughout the Black Community http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/12/82004f.asp I saw a .pdf file of the insert a few years ago. It looked a lot like Parade Magazine if I remember correctly. Rove's goal was to push just 2-3% of the Black vote to the Republican party by claiming that gays (and the Democrats who support them) are destroying and minimizing the legacy of Black civil rights. The notion that LGBT people (read as white) are undermining Black history gave the culture war a particularly horrific new frontier. If Rove's goal was to cause a civil war in the Democratic Party by pitting marginalized groups against one another, the Obama campaign walked right into this land mine with The McClurkin Incident.

A little history is in order here:

African-Americans, Asians, Latinos, and Whites have pretty much identical amounts of gay folks. If you do not believe that there REALLY are black gay folks out their (I mean beyond the DL and prison sex) I invite you to check out these links as a visual aid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKKcRR3HDO4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZFXOYMjmek&feature=related

The media portrays LGBT people as predominately white (and male) for a number of reasons. (1) Because of the inherent bigotry of some of our supporters. They want to show that gay folks are not 'poor, degenerate, cretins' but skilled, upper-middle class, white people (read in sing-song-voice: people just like you and me.) (2) Because those who hate us also have fantasies of our whiteness and wealth. Images of white, wealthy gay men help them locate gayness as a product of a jaded leisure class who oppress good, Christian, working-class families. The Gay is 'more attractive' and 'super affluent' with a life unfettered by children and responsibility. This caricature is similar to the image of the hyper-masculine black man with an enormous and terrifying male member. The Black wants to rape your woman! The Gay wants to rape your hardworking family! It is the fantasy of victimization that oppressors concoct in order to rationalize their very real fear of retaliation by those they harm. Kinda of like when the guy who cheats beats his wife because he knows she must have a cheating heart too...

This is not to excuse the fact that white gays and males enjoy their social privilege in the gay community itself (not to mention gays and lesbians subordinating trans and bi/pansexual concerns.) There is segregation in the gay community. There are also substantive cultural and class differences between folks in the LGBT community. One of the largest gaps is between working class African American gays and the white professional gays who either try to speak for them or distance themselves from them or simply have no idea what goes on in their world. (Point of disclosure: I'm a white, ethnic, working class lesbian. I am only repeating information that I have learned from African-American LGBTs and what I witnessed coming out in the black LGBT community during my youth.)

One of the main struggles of African-American gays has been to explain within the Black community that gay and transgender Blacks are not 'betrayers' who have adopted or been infected with 'white ways'. This is an issue not just in the US but in Africa and the West Indies as well. Many have struggled to show LGBT histories in African culture: the book Boy-Wives and Female Husbands: African Homosexualities is an example of this struggle. This fantasy of 'super-affluent, white gay perversion' isn't just a problem in the US. It is getting Black gay rights activists murdered all over Africa (see: IGLHRC.org.) So maybe now some of you can understand how Obama's choice of using a white gay pastor to counterbalance McClurkin's appearance was an unmitigated disaster. What's more, it added insult to injury when Obama chose to call those who cheered at McClurkin's remarks "good, moral people."

I'm sure most of the Gospel Tour attendees were nice people. But I am also detecting here the "soft prejudice of low expectations." You know, "gosh golly, they're just ignorant black folk! How are they supposed to understand a complex thing like gay rights!" I feel that when we excuse African American rightwing Christian bigotry against LGBT people (against mostly black LGBTs) when we refuse to accept it in white Christians, we are insulting the intelligence and moral conviction of the Black community as a whole. There are a great many African-Americans who have stood up for gay rights as a civil rights struggle: Coretta Scott King, Huey P. Newton to name two.

Here's an example of African-American hatred toward gays. It is not moral. It is not good. And it is not any more acceptable than Falwell or his ilk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5QMw-nRXU0&feature=related
http://www.watchmenonthewalls.com/issue30.html

Ex-Football player Ken Hutcherson is particularly vile. As a new government-funded faith-based initiative, Hutcherson went to Latvia to attend a global gay hate conference with the author of the Pink Swastika. http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=809 Yes, that's right, an Black American ex-football player using US tax dollars to motivate white skinheads in Eastern Europe in hopes of inciting violence against gays on the American west coast. This is the sort of batshit logic that can only be borne from the brotherhood of mutual hatred.

When religious leaders say that gays are demonic child killers who must be stopped at all cost, what do you think is the underlying sentiment of that message?

Here are some high-profile cases of gay murder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8Esg_9QlOA&feature=related

Here are some not so high-profile cases:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr82-9tCdSg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw9zJq0QGl0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55j7QuBtWww

And a recent murder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh-C4vH1uLo

Because sexual orientation is not a protected status, murders of gay and lesbians often go underreported. It is also difficult to question a murder victim about the hatred spewed during an attack. What we do know, is that many murdered people don't make it into these you tube videos.

Lastly, we owe it to African-American LGBT people to call bigotry what it is. Here are some cases of recently murdered gay African-Americans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF4Avae3PE8
http://www.rashawnbrazell.com/
Rashawn was murdered in 2005. His body was found dissected throughout the NYC subway system. You might not have heard about it. It only made page 22 of the NY Times. They never found Rashawn's head.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakia_Gunn
Sakia was killed by an African-American male who she rejected.

These cases are iconic, but they are not isolated.

And now some statistics about gay youth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaHeocHDc8g&feature=related

Almost one-half of homeless children in America identify as LGBT. I promise you, they aren't all white. Why are these children thrown out of their homes? Why are they forced to leave? What would motivate a parent to discard their child? What would make a child so uncomfortable at home that they'd rather fend for themselves on the streets, starve, or prostitute themselves than return?

The fact that there is huge religious movement in America that correlates LGBT people with demonic possessed agents of Satan may have something to do with it.

******************

During the 2004 election, many pundits and even some Democrats openly blamed gays and lesbians for another four years of war, death, and the destruction of our very democracy--all because of our mad, selfish, and stubborn desire to call ourselves 'married.' Not only did we suffer the same losses as everyone else, we also faced the wrath of progressives. The religious right wanted us out of their society and many Democrats seemed to want us out of the party. When the reality of our lives is excluded from the Democratic debate, when our fellow Democrats want us to shut-up or see us as a liability, it reminds us that we have no home. When presidential candidates give homophobes a platform to spew hate and then tell us that we need to come together and talk with these people--as if we are just two groups with a mere difference of opinion--it is painful. It is also ignorant and offensive. It's also really, really dangerous.

It's not just about the legislation you pass. It's about the climate you create. If the leader of the United States warmly embraces us, parents become less ashamed of their children and more able to love and care for them. Our communities exclude us less, violence against us seems less tolerable. If the leader of the United States treats us like a special interest group whose needs are pitted against other needs, we will be treated like a rival faction and the violence will escalate. And if we lose altogether, we may be facing a very violent future indeed. If we are abandoned by straight progressives it makes survival even more difficult.

We need you to stand with us and speak truth to hate and violence regardless of race and ethnicity. We need to say no--a strong resounding NO--to concepts like "the Urban Cure" because it is as truly evil as it sounds.

Thanks for reading.

:dem:

edited to provide link

[magellan]

1. The whole "ex-gay" thing is about as persuasive as creationism IMO

Which is to say, not at all. But it sounds exactly like what America's uniquely hypocritical, ignorant, and violent sect of "Christians" would believe and try to foist on others as "fact".

I stand with you and the LGBT community, readmoreoften. Thanks for the great post.

[readmoreoften]

2. Thanks for your support, magellan.

Thanks for taking the time to read the post.

[Karenina]

3. I got your back, rmo.

K&R for a fantastic post!

[readmoreoften]

4. Thanks Karenina, hopefully some folks will check out the links.

I think the global Watchmen of the Walls movement is dangerous. I have to say that the idea of a Huckabee win has me most concerned. I'm not sure what this country would become if that happened.

[Neecy]

5. Very well thought out, researched, and argued.

I have to tell you that despite the McClurkin travesty - and I share your horror of it - I'm still an Obama supporter. This wasn't an easy decision for me to make because of the nature of the insult itself and what it means to us as a community.

All of the Democratic candidates are okay on our issues. But I feel that Hillary and Edwards are at about the limit of their understanding and willingness to fight for us. I still think Obama has room to grow and seems willing to seriously consider what our needs and challenges are.

I agree that his expecting us to sit down and 'discuss' our 'differences' with these ex-gay lunatics shows a distinct lack of understanding - but I do think that he'll get it. I hope you post this on his blog. It's excellent and truly *does* open doors about where we're coming from. I've made it very clear already to some of his paid staffers how I feel about it and they've truly made an effort to listen and understand. I think he'll do the same.

[readmoreoften]

8. Thanks for the thoughtful comment.

I know how difficult it is when you support a candidate who makes a mistake that's difficult to handle. I really appreciate that you're not minimizing the problem of bringing an ex-gay out for a rally. I will support Obama in the general. At first I was convinced that this was such a major f-up that it had to be a calculated choice to win right-leaning African-American voters. Now I think it just might've been ignorance or a combination of factors.

I was for Kucinich, but now I'm leaning towards Edwards. I was nervous about his LGBT stance, but he recently met with LGBT folks and remarked that he supported full coverage for hormone therapy for trans people, calling it a matter of 'equality.' That was huge for me. The fact that he openly and clearly addressed a trans issue showed a willingness to be an advocate. It really, really impressed me.

Cheers!

[Neecy]

18. oh, I don't minimize it one bit

In fact, when it happened I was beyond livid. I'm still unhappy about it. One more screwup like this and I'm going over to Edwards, although I think it's been a lesson learned.

The fact is none of them are perfect or even particularly courageous when it comes to LGBT issues. I learned during the Clinton administration, when we got screwed over by DODT and DOMA, not to place all of the responsibility on one politician for our freedom. In fact, the main reason I won't support Hillary is because of DOMA - after all the support he got from the gay community, this was a pure craven act of treachery and political opportunism and I don't want Bill Clinton to have *any* influence on our issues ever again.

[eridani]

23. Kucinich is foursquare for full marriage equality and an end to the War on Some Drugs

Edwards, while good on many other issues, is neither of these.

[readmoreoften]

26. I know! I love DK. I'm really torn between the two. I'm a labor activist as well so

I just don't know what to do. Despite Edwards' obvious flaws they're neck and neck for me. I have no idea who I'm going to pull the handle on yet.

[eridani]

27. A lot depends on where you live

If you live in a caucus state, go for Kucinich first. You can always switch for strategic reasons at higher levels. It's a tougher choice in a primary state, where polls might indicate that a boost for Edwards at that particular date could be critical.

Remember that Edwards has come a long way since 2004--far more substantial and far more aggressive on behave of ordinary people. IMO, that had a lot to do with the 2004 Kucinich campaign. Want to improve Edwards even more? Support Kucinich if it makes strategic sense in your state.

[readmoreoften]

28. I'm in Texas. We go on March 3rd and Edwards seems to be the most popular candidate.

DK isn't doing badly, though. 13% of the vote last time I checked.

[eridani]

29. That's late for this year's primary cycle

Edwards may need a boost to put him over the top at that point. If he is lagging enough to drop out, then support Kucinich as a protest against money-driven coronations. DK will be in it to the end, just as he was in 2004.

[readmoreoften]

30. That sounds like a great plan. I figure that if it's close, I'm betting on Edwards.

If it's all but over for Edwards, I'm absolutely voting for Kucinich.

[peacetheonlyway]

55. FOLKS ALWAYS LISTEN to the GAY COMMUNITY TO GET OUR MONEY

and the day after election just like Clinton, it's "dont ask, don't tell all over again."

I will not be silent.

Obama is an Abomination.

you as a gay person have Kucinich, Gravel, Biden and many others who are running for president who openly welcome you and your issues.

that you would choose a Obama who has a history of religious upbringing in a faith that most despises gay people (Muslim) and the African American Mega Churches in the South which he gladly courts for votes, which have historical background in hating the gay community because of the black churche's hold on most african american thought, does not make sense to me.

but your vote is yours and mine is mine.

MY VOTE GOES TO KUCINICH...

[Neecy]

62. first of all...

Obama is not a muslim. Can we drop that particular talking point, simply because it's false? Thank you.

And I don't believe that *any* black churches have a 'historical' hatred of us. It's true that issues do exist between our communities and we have some of the blame for this - research what happened in the 1980's and early 1990's between the activist African-American congregations who wanted more AIDS funding in their communities and who ended up getting it. I know because I was there and there still isn't closure over this issue.

By your reasoning, though, I shouldn't support any candidates who belong to a religious demonination because all of them, on some level, oppress us as a people.

Obama is a highly intelligent man who understands social injustice. I'm more than willing to give him a chance.

[peacetheonlyway]

79. Obama is not ANYTHING... his lack of taking a stance on anything

make him nothing.

obama is a white ghost in black man's clothing.

the problem with a highly intelligent man who takes on antigay folks into his campaign.


is that Obama has lost the entire GAY community period nationwide.

10% is not something to sneeze at.

Obama is out of the race.

count my words after Iowa and new hampshire no one will waste 3 seconds on the black man who coul have championed civil rights for all but sold short the gay community and ended up losing enough activists to make his liveliehood in NH and Iowa a reality..

it's over because obama did not sanction and support the gay community ....



he sux..

obama sux.

and the gay people will prevail.

[Neecy]

81. uh huh....

Here's shocking news for you: you don't speak for "the entire GAY community period nationwide". I'm gay and I support Obama. You're free to support whomever you want.

And the 'sux' thing is truly childish. Buh-bye.

[Le Taz Hot]

86. May I just interject?

You mention the 10% figure but it's actually much higher. There are probably 3 times that many who are not members of the GBLT community but who understand that this is a civil rights issue and that we stand behind our GBLT brothers and sisters 100%.

[Mythsaje]

6. "Demon possessed"

sounds an awful lot like slander to me.

I mean, it's very hard to prove.

The only weapon to defend against this sort of thing I can think of would be strong, unequivocal censure from everyone outside the community pushing this crap.

I wish we could get them to knock it off. But I can't think of any way to do it, short of passing a law. Which, as we already know, wouldn't help matters.

[readmoreoften]

13. I think the answer can't be legislative. It has to be cultural. Engendering awareness.

But we also have to be aware that their goals are legislative goals. The 'gay' agenda is just to live a fulfiling life and to make sure gay youths and elders aren't abused. Their agenda is something much different.

[Mythsaje]

15. You can't make them stop...

But you CAN take them to task for lying. If you can go after them for Fraud (ex-gay movement has a LOT of support...if it could be proven to be a fake, that's legally fraud). The whole Demon-Possessed angle is slanderous and can be proved to be detrimental to public perception of individuals as well as a whole group.

I can imagine Alan Shore arguing this kind of case.

[readmoreoften]

16. I'm not sure it'll work. These folks think that a demon causes everything.

demonbuster.com is a good example.

Note that the person says that diabetes is caused by 10 squid-like demons, and that bloodpressure is also the result of demons. Not high blood pressure. Not low blood pressure. Just blood pressure.

I'm not sure it's slander to say someone is possessed by demons or under the devil's influence.

[Mythsaje]

17. Well, maybe we should allow that to be tried

in the court of public opinion.

Being accused of "being under the influence" of evil beings COULD be seen as slanderous, I'd think. And, as I said, it's impossible to prove.

It would be fun to see how that shook out.

[MuseRider]

7. Well done.

Very well written and documented, I think you covered all the areas. I have a close friend who spent several years in one of those camps. He finally pretended to "come around" just to get the hell out of there. He said it was brutal both physically and mentally. Thankfully he is just fine today and uses his experience as a teaching tool.

Thank you for this.

[Donnachaidh]

9. bookmarked and recommended -- thank you!

Much light needs to be thrown on this subject.

[maddiejoan]

10. Thank you for explaining it.

much love

[readmoreoften]

12. Took me long enough to write dammit! :)

much love back

:hug:

[knitter4democracy]

11. Spot on analysis. You're totally right.

Hubby and I grew up evangelical and went to our church's college, where we met. The administration had someone like McClurkin come in and talk about being "cured" by God and such. There was more anger amongst the students than I'd ever seen in chapel. People came out furious with him, saying they had LBGT family and friends and that they weren't sick and didn't need to be cured. This from people I thought were thoroughly brainwashed by the church. I initially though the anger was at having to listen to someone who "used" to be gay, but that wasn't it at all.

There was a lot of homophobia at the college, don't get me wrong. Horrible, horrible things were done to friends of mine just because they weren't heteros. This anger at the speaker really surprised me. People didn't like having their friends and family called sick and possessed and in need of stronger faith in God to "stop sinning." Personally, I think the tide is very slowly turning and that it scares the bejeebus out of the old guard.

[hfojvt]

14. you oppose the Urban cure?

Is there no cure for the disease of "living in big cities."


No offense, I hope, I am just making fun of a name and the fact that I do not like large urban areas. Plus I am posting here so I can find it later when I have more time to read and check out some of the links. Thanks for taking the time for this.

[libnnc]

19. This is the most well informed, well organized post I've ever read.

Thank you so much for taking the time to produce this fantastic, educated assessment of our community.

Proudly K&R

:kick: :yourock:

[readmoreoften]

25. Wow thanks! That's quite a compliment! I hope people actually READ IT, including the links.

I'm also glad that what I said rings true for other LGBT people as well. A lot goes unsaid between us and there is so much diversity in the community that it's hard to create a post that's inclusive. On the other hand, we have a very clear common enemy. The battle for survival could not be much clearer, in fact.

[libnnc]

77. kick

:kick:

[robinlynne]

20. I just thought they were crazy. I did not know how far it went. thank-you for

the insight. I thought ex-gays were sort of like people in the fifties playing with behavior modification theories. wackos. When religion gets in the mix, wackos become extremely dangerous. And with this "satan' concept, even more so.

[EFerrari]

21. Thank you and a kick.

[Elspeth]

22. Excellent thread. Kicked and recommended.

:kick:

[Ignis]

24. Thanks for clarifying why this is so important. K&R! (nt)

[Richard Steele]

31. Kicked and recommended

[Maven]

32. Gay Man Goes Through "Ex-Gay" Hell After Christian "Purity Siege"

These cretins are abusing young people and must be stopped.

Via towleroad:

One of the main people featured in the clip posted below is James Stabile, who was apparently "cured" of his homosexuality by a minister at one of these purity sieges.

John Wright of the Dallas Voice attempted to track down Stabile and discovered what had happened to him after talking to Joe Oden, the midwest evangelist who has been organizing the "purity sieges" and who "touched" Stabile, allegedly transforming him from gay to straight in an instant:

Writes Wright: "Oden told me Stabile had been shipped off to Pure Life Ministries, which operates a residential treatment program in Northern Kentucky. 'It’s a program for people who’ve lived alternative lifestyles just to get totally clean,' Oden told me. Upon further investigation, I discovered Pure Life Ministries is also the place where Mike Johnston — remember him?! — is director of donor and media relations. Johnston’s the guy who contracted HIV before swearing off homosexuality and becoming a poster child for the ex-gay movement in the late 1980s. Then, in 2003, it was revealed that Johnston was living a double life — cruising men online and organizing unsafe sex parties while failing to disclose his HIV status to partners. Johnston eventually checked into Pure Life and later re-emerged in his current position. 'With good reason, people would question what I’m saying now,' Johnston told me recently during what he said was the only interview he’s given on the subject in four years."

Soon after, Oden told Wright that Stabile had been kicked out of Pure Life Ministries for being a "compulsive liar" so Wright tracked down Stabile's father (pastor of Cochran Chapel United Methodist Church, the oldest church in Dallas) to "get the real scoop."

According to Wright, "Joseph Stabile said he’s fully accepting of his son’s sexual orientation and believes being gay is neither a choice nor a sin. Joseph Stabile said James left home to go out that Friday night and never returned. Joseph said James, or 'B.J.' as his parents affectionately refer to him, is bipolar and had stopped taking his medication. James called a few days later and told his parents he was moving out, and that he’d be back to get his stuff. James apparently had moved in with some folks from Heartland. After that, it would be some time before James’ parents heard from him, as his church friends reportedly advised him not to contact them. Joseph Stabile said the Heartland folks also may have advised James to throw away his medication, telling him that God would cure his bipolar disorder, too. Joseph’s parents said James has a tendency to be less than truthful, especially when he’s off his medication, and that he loves attention. They said they don’t believe he’s ever questioned his sexuality, but that the folks from Heartland manipulated and exploited him for publicity."

So the Fundies basically emotionally kidnapped Stabile, took away medication that helps him act rationally, and that's not all. Apparently it cost James $2100 to get into the "ex-gay" program and another $150 a week while he was there. The people at Pure Life constantly told him he was going to Hell, he had to be clothed from the neck down even while sleeping. James is now home with his parents, describes his experience at "straight camp" as being "horrible" and is seeing a therapist.

http://www.towleroad.com/2007/12/ex-gay-camp-har.html

Fuckers.

[2beToby]

48. Holy crap!

I wondered why that video looked strange. Thanks for posting this, I wanted to know what happened.

[xchrom]

33. recommend

[dsc]

34. Great post

Thank you so much for taking the immense amount of time it must have taken to write this. I hope some of the poo-pooers actually take the time to read it.

[annabanana]

35. Thank you so much for this informative post.

I have always understood that the "ex-gay" movement was false and probably constituted torture, but I didn't see the underlying philosophy of these people.

(bookmarking for when the subject comes up)

[Pacifist Patriot]

36. Thank you for taking time to do this. A must read!

[kelliebrat]

37. Excellent !

Kicked and Rec'd

:kick:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

38. K & R. This is the kind of post which keeps me coming back to DU, one which illuminates and

enlightens in a compelling manner.

Thank you for doing all the work on this. I saw the "throw them under the bus" mentality that surfaced here after the 2004 election and it was disappointing and disheartening.

Your description of the RW fundy extremists targeting "at risk" children made my blood run cold.

Thank you, again, for this eye opening glimpse at the things you and your sisters and brothers endure, while trying to just live your lives without harassment and worse.

I wish I could recommend it more than once.
MKJ

[timtom]

39. A very heartfelt and intelligent post.

Thanks for some superior writing.

[ptolle]

58. concur

elegantly expressive. I note one of your links is to the chalcedon organization which, IIRC, is Rushdoony's organization one of the more virulent dominionist groups.

[hulklogan]

40. Thank you so much for this post.

I hope everyone here takes the time to read it, especially the McClurkin apologists.



:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Raster]

41. Let there be LIGHT! Excellent post! Thank you!

Naturally Gay and born this way!:kick:

[emsimon33]

42. Very well researched and articulated

[Sam Ervin jret]

43. The myth of the Male/Female and no other shall exist is put to lie by cultures throughout the world

throughout time and even across species. Many early native American cultures had words for more than two "sexes" and some species can change sex given certain conditions. Are they possessed by the devil as well?

The people with this narrow view of the world are the same people who can't wait for it all to end in the "rapture" so they can all get carried to heaven (see Mike HUCK). I say let 'em go - sooner the better so the rest of us can get on with the life we were given and meant to enjoy with each other as best as we can.

[readmoreoften]

61. The diversity of sexual bodies and identities is one of the most rigorously disguised

and suppressed human truths. Personally, I think the rigid, ahistorical man/woman binary is the foundation of totalitarian thinking.

[racaulk]

44. This is the most thought-provoking post I have read here in a long time.

I think you have really gone to the heart of why so many of us in the GLBT community felt hurt and betrayed by Obama due to the whole McClurkin incident. You have written this post so well and you really explained your positions thoroughly and in a thought-provoking and respectful manner.

I wish I could recommend this post 1,000 times.

Thank you! :pals:

K&R

:kick:

[crispini]

45. K&R

[meowomon]

46. Excellent Post

You have hit it spot on.

[fascisthunter]

47. Fundamentalists Act Like Nazis

If they could throw gays into ovens, they most certainly would.

Could you imagine for a moment, blacks being sent into conversion camps. Who in their right might would even tolerate such a thing. Well, our government obviously condones it, and some wonder why the LGBT community and the left itself is so outraged.

[dbackjon]

49. Thank you very much for this. Permanent Bookmark

[JackBeck]

50. K&R!

And added to facebook.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

51. The religiously insane...

scare the crap out of me. How on earth do you reason with a person who believes high blood pressure is demon-related or that "God" will cure you of bipolar disease???

Although I am straight, I stand in complete solidarity with my GLBT brothers and sisters. :loveya:

I understand 100% your anger about the Obama/McClurkin episode -- I wrote Obama off after he refused to fully address GLBT concerns about that appearance. I thought it showed a real lack of leadership and vision. He had the perfect opportunity to tell and show religious African-Americas there is no place for homophobia in our culture/religions, but he tried to straddle the fence instead. Shame on him. We need leaders who are outspoken and unequivical in their support for the GLBT community and the need for full civil rights protections. And walk the talk.

The whole "ex-gay" movement makes me ill. I want to grab all those poor folks and ferry them here to San Francisco and (relative) safety, away from the insane homophobes trying to kill their spirits. :cry:


Thank you for this great post -- I hope those on DU who have yet to "get it" read this and are enlightened.

[Hepburn]

52. People just ARE what they ARE.

Some are exclusively straight and some are exclusively gay...and there are many, many places and spaces between those two orientations.

I simply do NOT understand why people cannot see AND accept this. It just is what it is and there is NOTHING bad or good about an orientation. It just is...kind of like having brown eyes or blue eyes or being tall or short...I firmly believe that people are born with a certain sexual orientation.

I wish to hell this BS sick bigotry against those who are not 100% straight would just fucking stop. What others do in sexually with other consenting adults is simply NOT relevant to my life. So why the hell should anyone be concerned with things like this???

Thanks for posting the OP...lots of good info and thoughts! :hi:

JMHO

[Lilith Velkor]

53. As a poor person

welcome to my world. The Dems abandoned us over a decade ago, except to whine about how we owe them votes. I hope they don't make the same mistake again, and if they would but reverse the past ones, they'd never have to sweat an election again in my lifetime.

[peacetheonlyway]

54. Great Post.. this is well written and really makes my day! ; 0

as a gay person about to run for political office.

bracing my wife for the outlandish abuses we are likely to face as a gay public facing official, and reminding myself of the hatred toward a woman I ran a campaign for who was openly gay in the south, I read your post with great great personal interest.

this is very well researched and really lays out the issues.


thanks so much for doing this.

[readmoreoften]

59. Good luck and please keep us updated! We need more LGBT people as public officials.

Wonderful! :bounce:

[peacetheonlyway]

80. I am running because SHOWING UP is easy

and the rethugliacan I oppose is a silver spoon rich girl who never had to fight.


i had to fight for every position i ever held.


i win simply by showing up.

my oppponent is toast.

rethuglicans win when dems don't field candidates.

i'm a fielded candiate i win just by showing up.

POWER TO THE MASSES/...

"WE THE PEOPLE is my campaign slogan"

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

56. The Obama campaign

sent my contribution back to me.
I requested this because of the McClurkin endorsement and appearance.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

57. very, very well put together post

this one of those rare DU posts that changes my attitudes and perceptions about the world I live in.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on how we combat homophobia in America. It is so widespread and so ingrained in our culture, I have no idea how we fight it. I thought Obama was on the right track as far as speaking towards the issue instead of ignoring it, but in truth, he let a moment slip by. He could have done a lot more to advance the gay rights agenda and he ended up making some good points, but not really pressing the issue. Such is American politics though, because if a major candidate really gets behind gay rights, ie makes gay marriage a central platform of their campaign, then they will probably not get elected. it becomes a Catch 22. I guess that's two issues, fighting homophobia and electing someone who will back gay rights - what are your thoughts?

[readmoreoften]

68. I think it has to start from the bottom up.

We haven't gotten where we are thus far from politicians, that's for sure. The 70s and 80s were better for gay people than the 50s and 60s because of Stonewall and Compton's Cafeteria Riot. We're currently in a better position because of all the work done by ACT-UP in the late 80s and early 90s. The foundation of Gender Studies in the mid-90s (a reformulation of Women's Studies, which also still exists) did wonders in explaning diversity to college age students, many of whom are now progressive adults.

In the early to mid 80s, gay and lesbian rights were nowhere on the liberal map. Quiet private requests for tolerance seemed to be as good as it got. But now we straight progressives are standing and fighting with us, and that's fantastic. Now we need to get the moderates and centrists and even conservative democrats on board. We need the kind of people who say "That gay stuff is not my issue. I don't care what two people do in their bedrooms..." Those are the people we need on board. We need them to realize: Hey! Wait! I could be beat up if these idiots think I'm gay! Or maybe they won't want religious fanatics coming into their schools and targeting their straight but painfully shy daughter. Or maybe they'll remember that time when their favorite uncle and his 'friend' came home with black eyes and laughed it off. Across the river from where I grew up in the 80s, I heard stories about a guy who was beat to death because he was wearing a pink shirt. The guy had a wife and kids, but the pink shirt made him gay. These people are victmizing and patrolling the behavior of us all, not just gay people.

We need decent church people to address the issue, to become educated on the issues, to confront people who push anti-gay stuff in their churches. I remember 15 years ago, I knew a very conservative couple who were looking for a church. They went to one church that was passing around a newspaper article about a transwoman, identifying her as the enemy. They got up and walked out. They recognized it as hate. It's not impossible to reach conservative people on these issues. What's key, I think, is cutting through all the candy-coated rhetoric of 'love the sinner' on websites with flowers and children frolicking in the grass by showing people where their logic ends.

There's not much a politician like Obama can do. It's best to ignore and avoid the antigay movement. If you're not going to challenge them explicitly and unequivocably (which I agree is a risk at the moment, that's why a grassroots effort needs to be made to change minds) then don't fuel them. Don't give them air time. And definitely don't treat them like just another valid opinion in the marketplace of ideas. There are plenty of ideas we don't subscribe to in our party: nazism, white supremacy, torture, theocracy, and female submission (to name a few.) I am of the opinion in the African-American religious community that if we return STRONGLY to issues of social justice and economic equality (as in restoring voting rights to felons, making sure Black voters aren't disenfranchised, protecting Black workers, investing in education...) suddenly Adam and Steve will stop being the spawn of Satan and resume their status as that nice couple across the street who enjoy their garden.

[ooglymoogly]

60. So many issues so little time.

Giving organized religion a leg to stand on when it has none is no. one. I would argue that organized religion has never done any good and is generally the cause of most if not all evil and confusion in the world and is the cause for the need of psychiatrists and that entire field and without organized religion there would be no need for a distinction between homosexuality, bisexuality and heterosexuality.

Homosexuality is as normal to nature as is oxygen.

Picking apart one aspect of that evil that is organized religion while ignoring the rest shines a bright light on a minor very ugly black hole of organized religion. None the less it is a good example of how rotten organized religion is on the whole, though I do not believe that was your intent. So my comment is, you have done very well in shedding light on a small part of the evil of organized religion without bringing the rest to task (a herculean order) but which none the less stands out in your otherwise marvelous set of dichotomies which on the whole I agree with wholeheartedly. Changing a gay person to a straight person or visa versa is like trying to change a donkey to a reindeer by putting antlers on its head. Ex gay warriors would make a good title for a Greek comedic tragedy. great post thanx

[terrya]

63. One of the best posts I've ever seen on Democratic Underground.

You have done a selfless act of service posting this. My heartfelt thank you.

I am enormously proud to recommend this post.

[Maven]

64. This is a brilliant and insightful post, rmo

You managed to weave together all the different elements pertaining to race and sexual orientation to explain why "conversion" con artists are not just deluded, they are dangerous, and why we cannot tolerate leaders who legitimize their hate.

K/R

[terrya]

66. I wish this was on the Home Page.

Seriously. This needs to be read by as many people as possible.

[mojowork_n]

65. Well, readmoreoften, that was a long post, and

I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to write it.

To be honest, as a vertically-challenged, physically fit, more or less outgoing, mostly friendly sort, your post helped me to realize that over the years, I have developed a sort of 'anti-gay' gay vibe awareness.

All those years of being in the locker room at the gym. Having that (bi-sexual?) *married*, Harley-riding, hockey-playing former co-worker confess his attraction. (After four of us had shared a booth at a restaurant for lunch, he said, "I thought you were sitting so far away because you wanted to keep frontin' for being straight", or something like that.) ...No, I was keeping a deliberate distance because I'm more comfortable keeping a certain distance.

Some banner for an 'infotainment' newslink I just saw announced, 'singer says she's one-quarter gay'.

I guess my former co-worker was maybe a little more than halfway there, and I'm... not even wanting to bother assigning a percentage.

I don't know if that constitutes any sort of denial, but at least it's not the implacable, flaming, balls-out (!) hostility you're talking about. When all y'all are faced with that, I can see how it would incite the 100 % naturally gay and proud-of-it reaction, igniting secondary implosions, and definitely putting a damper on the conversation.

Thanks for sharing.

P.S.

The best article I've ever read on fundies didn't have a whole lot to say on the topic of sexuality (I think, I may not be remembering it accurately), but although it's kind of long, I'd urge you to give it a look:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19590

Any black/white world view that keeps people from looking inside themselves, to fight their own personal demons and heal their own wounds, and instead encourages scapegoating, hate, and all the rest...
...it just perpetuates the cycles of disaster/implosion. There's too much of it in the world, already.

[Dhalgren]

67. Beautiful! Well done! Excellent post!

You made exactly the case that should be made. I am going to use your post (if I may) to explain the truth to some of these folks who just don't get it. Thank you!

:applause:

[FreeState]

69. As someone who grew up in a very religious anti-gay environment

I want to kick this and say thanks. You said so well all the things I have been meaning to say but could not quite get out. No one really understands our pain and trials unless they want to and you have opened that door so those who truly want to know will. Thank you so much!

(PS thanks for your reply on the other thread about Edward's sorry I have not had time to post to much this week)

[Mister Ed]

70. K&R. And Thank You. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

71. This is the best post I have ever read. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

85. Subject line

*Secret kick*

[Beausoir]

72. "Almost one-half of homeless children in America identify as LGBT" That is horrific.

Thank you for a brilliant post.

K&R

[TheDoorbellRang]

73. Thanks for generating the light, rmo

Yours is one of the reasons I keep coming back to DU -- thoughtful, enlightening posts that bring me closer to understanding on issues I have been woefully ignorant of in the past.

Thank you. K&R

[FredScuttle]

74. Thank you for a thoughtful, well reasoned post.

n/t

[NMMNG]

75. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Maybe now people will begin to understand just how insidious the "ex-gay" movement, other such homophobes,their supporters, and their apologists are.

[Bluenorthwest]

76. Great thanks to readmoreoften

Thanks for writing this and saying it so well. I hope it will be read all over, and allow for more understanding. I've been really having a crisis over the McClurkin/Obama thing, and I hope this sort of pandering is not going to become welcome in the Democratic Party. I'd have to leave the Party if that sort of thing is given a place in our lexicon. I've always been a Democrat, always been active. Just this morning I was thinking that for the first time I understood those crazy Greens who could not vote Gore in 2000. Voting Obama would be very difficult for me to do in light of the concerts and Obama's dismissive attitude ever since. The vile stuff posted by Obama supporters has never been renounced by the campaign. And I fear what will transpire if Obama wants to compete for the religionist vote with Huckaphobia. Will Obama go all the way anti-gay?
If Obama is not called on this stuff, our Party will be in disarray like the GOP faster than you can say 2010. I do not stand with bigots. Ever. Not for so much as a moment. Not even for the Democratic Party.
So thanks for this, so very much. I hope Obama supporters read it and demand better from their Apollo of the moment. I hope Obama reads it and feels the reality of his actions, and finds a way to make amends.

[readmoreoften]

83. A definite welcome to DU!!!

I was seriously, seriously angry at Obama for, oh I dunno, about a month. I was convinced it was a deliberate pandering at our expense. I'm not so sure now that he knew the seriousness of the hatred he was spreading. Don't get me wrong, he's not my pick. I think the idea of unifying America at this moment is profoundly wrong. It's like trying to unify managers and workers during a labor strike by feeling alone, when it's the hard cold contract that's on everyone's mind. I think we need a candidate who is willing to say, "you are wrong, but I welcome you to rethink your ideas and join us." Somehow it's become unpopular to speak with authority. Personally, I believe in self-evident truths and I'll fight for them.

Unless the parties split 4 ways, I won't be a part of a 3rd party. But I think we can take control of this party the way the fundamentalists took control of the Republicans. We can move the party to the left. It needs to move WAY to the left. Oddly enough, I think that will attract a lot of people on the right as well.

Welcome to DU! Stick around!

:hi:

[caseycoon]

78. Very enlightening! I knew these people were

deluded, but had no idea how dangerously deranged they are. Thank you for posting this.

Edited to say DK has always been my 1st choice, but I did like Obama until the McKlurkin incident. He's clear off my list now.

[otherlander]

82. I tried to recommend this thread

but it was too late. Really well-written information there, though. Thanks for posting.

[Maven]

84. Kicking this

so a few more people have a chance to read.

[ruggerson]

87. readmoreoften, thank you for this thread

it is absolutely wonderful.

I hope that the people who dismissed the McClurkin incident really read this and understand what you are detailing here.

Bravo.