Did the WH have a live feed and did CIA split the signal to make copies

[EFerrari]

of torture sessions?

1. Released torture victims are consistently reporting seeing cameras in the places they were held. So far, there has been tape retrieved from New York City, Abu Graib, this latest CIA batch was made in Thailand. We know they taped Lindh -- in Afghanistan? Today Amy interviewed someone who was held in Kabul and who reports cameras. It looks, more and more, as if torture was taped, period, as a matter of policy.

2. But, where is all the tape? DUer L. Coyote suggests that there was a live feed to the White House because of the massive cover up.

3. J. Coffer Black ran the rendition program at CIA. That would be CIA who has been vastly demonized and bullied, mainly by Dick Cheney. The torture program was Cheney's idea, as confirmed by a Dec 8 Newsweek article that can be found in DUer Paul Thompson's excellent timeline:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2488161

4. The question remains, if there were cameras at these torture sites AND tape isn't popping up all over, does this tend to confirm L. Coyote's "live feed" idea? and

5. Did CIA split the signal and make copies against being scapegoated again? (Is that even possible?) And,

6. if that's right, when did the White House find out CIA had either original tape or copies? Because that's when the VP likely pushed for the tape to be destroyed. That's what I'm thinking today, anyway. He pushed for CIA to destroy the tape and then, he tarred them with that destruction when the NIE went against him. :shrug:

[AndyTiedye]

1. Bush** and DarthCheney Would Have Both Wanted to Watch

They would have had to split the feed 3 ways, since Darth would have wanted to watch from the Undisclosed Location.

[EFerrari]

2. Andy, check out L. Coyote's OP. Are any of the people telling CIA

to preserve the tape Cheney's people? It doesn't look like it to me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2483457

[librechik]

8. we know at some point it was converted to digital

and that is what was shown to Cheney.

When I heard that, I thought--oh, my. A hacker could get those things.

I don't think we are talking about tape.

Nor do I think we are talking live sat feed. ANYBODY could intercept that shit.

[EFerrari]

9. I'm tech impaired. How did he do it?

There are sites all over the Middle East, there's Gitmo, there's Eastern Europe and now we know, Thailand.

How was it set up?

/oops

[Beetwasher]

11. I Would Think All Digital Secure Sattelite (Black Project) Uplinks

FYI, there probably are no "tapes" really, but rather digital and dvd copies.

[EFerrari]

15. I was scanning the stories earlier in the week to figure out

if there was tape or if that was just a figure of speech. In at least one story, the language seemed to suggest that at least some of it was tape. It wouldn't surprise me as Cheney and his friends have all the skill of Keystone Cops without the cute uniforms.

Is there such as thing as "secure sattelite"? I thought anybody who knew what they were doing could hack in?

Oh, and where the hell IS Cheney, anyway? Has he put his head up since this story broke?

[Beetwasher]

20. I Don't Have Much Tech Expertise, But I Would Think It Would Be Difficult To Hack Into

a sattelite unless you knew it existed to begin with. The security for a DOD sattelite (for example) uplink would be difficult to hack to begin with, even IF you knew it existed to begin with. I would be surprised if there weren't black op sats that are only know about by a select group of intelligence insiders.

I think the term "tape" is an anachronism. I can't imagine that they are still using video tapes, though I could be wrong. I think they are probably referring to copies as "tapes" out of habit.

[librechik]

18. heck, I don't know--maybe they have a close circuit spy sat

but if you were a professional electronic spy with good info and skills, you might be able to snag it on the fly.

What confuses me is the reference to "digital tapes." Little DVC cams make tiny tape cassettes rather than discs.

At some point the sessions existed inside a CIA/contractor computer. They might still be there, for example.

here is a good rundown of the procedure


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10481217


Nance says there was a live video feed to Langley. Seems odd, but maybe they feel that's secure, for some reason.

[EFerrari]

19. Thank you!

:)

The SCOPE of the thing is so big, it's hard to wrap your mind around it. But, released torture victims keep reporting CAMERAS with a great deal of consistency, from all over the world.

[SammyWinstonJack]

55. If true, that is both sad and sick!

:puke:

[EFerrari]

3. Something else: Did Dick Cheney impose his own interrogators?

Check out the beginning of Paul's timeline and notice that it sounds strangely as if CIA needs to learn how to torture when we know CIA has been torturing and teaching torture for decades. This doesn't make sense. Did Cheney hire and force his own people on CIA?

[Beetwasher]

4. Torture Sessions Were/Are Masturbatory Material For People Like Bush & Cheney

I'm not kidding. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a live feed and I can almost guarantee there are other copies floating around.

[EFerrari]

6. There's that whole part of it and I know you're not kidding.

But, it's been confirmed that CHENEY pushed for this. Those weren't CIA torture tapes, they were CHENEY torture tapes.

And when you think about it, with all the torture sites this mofo has going ALL OVER THE WORLD, it's just weird that there isn't tape coming out every hour! A live feed with no media would account for that in part. Via satellite? I'm too tech impaired to really understand it but the more I think about it and track down stuff, it goes back to Darth -- whom we know is a control freak and who tends to re-invent the wheel.

And, we know CIA HATES him for his meddling and arm twisting.

:shrug:

[Beetwasher]

10. Timing Is Everything

Copies are out there. They would be valuable commodities/insurance/levarage items. I can only assume that the either the time is not right for them to be released yet or deals are being made.

[EFerrari]

12. I wouldn't be surprised if CIA isn't negotiating for this bastard to step down.

Because if they made something like a hard copy -- I know that's assuming a lot -- they have him.
For now, they've shown him in no uncertain terms that they're not willing for this to be the "CIA torture tape" scandal for very long.

That "ex" agent they sent out last week was only the opening salvo, imho.

[Beetwasher]

13. I Honestly Cannot Imagine

What is going down behind the scenes. Best guess: mayhem. Bodies may start appearing soon (if they haven't already).

[EFerrari]

16. I think CIA has this in hand.

This is what they do for a living, anyway.

Cheney doesn't go out in open Limos. This looks like the next best thing. :tinfoilhat:

[Beetwasher]

21. There's A "Nice Little" Power Struggle Going On

That's for sure.

[Virginia Dare]

39. The outing of Valerie Plame was the equivalent of..

Bunker Hill or Fort Sumter.

[BuyingThyme]

5. Why don't we just subpoena Judy Miller and fucking ask her?

[EFerrari]

7. Libby.

:shrug:

[BuyingThyme]

14. Judy Miller: Mossad Torture Agent

Judy Miller: Mossad Torture Agent

Torturing Arabs is fun! - WonketteIs there any evil shit that doesn’t feature a performance by Judith Miller?

Anthrax attacks that coincide with her book release, jailhouse visits from Scooter Libby, advance knowledge of 9/11, giving Chalabi a running front-page space in the NYT … is she old enough to blame for Pearl Harbor, too? (Close enough —Ed.)

...

Salah and his attorney argued that much of the evidence against him, including a confession, should be disregarded because it was obtained under torture when he was in Israeli custody. Miller testified that she saw no evidence of mistreatment when she witnessed an interrogation of Salah and — in an unprecedented twist for a U.S. courtroom — two Israeli interrogators testified under aliases that Salah was treated well.

Next week, Judy’s gonna personally nuke Iran.

http://wonkette.com/politics/9%5C11/judy-miller-mossad-torture-agent-234072.php

[EFerrari]

17. Thanks. I didn't know that. But now I remember that Germs

and anthrax did come out at the same time.

I wish these people would just get back on the Mothership and go home.

[11 Bravo]

22. For medical reasons, Cheney can't take Viagra. Torture videos, on the other hand ...

give him a White House physician-approved chub.

[EFerrari]

24. There's that. There's also "he did it because he could".

The really scary part is that CIA let him, in the first place.

Think about the planning and implementation that had to be done in order so he could have those images.

It's just gobsmacking.

We know he pushed for this program. It was his idea. Then, we have these two psychologists foisted on CIA ops in Thailand. Then, when the NIE is released and doesn't get with HIS program, the story of CIA TORTURE TAPES is released.

Cheney, Cheney and Cheney. I don't actually think it's about sex for him, except insofar as he gets a charge from exerting his power because he can.

[blondeatlast]

23. It's been speculated on before, and I find it believable. I have to go, but will

come back to this one.

[EFerrari]

26. When L. Coyote brought up this question, I thought it was far fetched.

But after reading most of Paul's timeline, it doesn't seem far fetched at all any more.

This program has been nailed as Cheney's. And even before that, it was so much his m.o., I posted that speculation early in the week. Junior doesn't have the attention span but Cheney DOES.

And now, the timing makes sense. And the scantily veiled struggle between intelligence and Cheney is the elephant in any room on Capitol Hill where this is being discussed. :shrug:

[tekisui]

35. And the report, IIRC, in the timeline of chimpy asking

"who approved the painkillers?"

[EFerrari]

36. That's right. n/t

[lovuian]

25. OMG I believe these guys would do it

They are very sick sick people
sado machistic people

Chalibi's bitch involved
http://youtube.com/watch?v=BLMQOu0o6TA

[EFerrari]

27. I think CIA made hard copy to CYA. Cheney -- who knows what goes on

in that borg brain of his.

[lovuian]

33. I agree and he is sick sick sick

they really didn't need to torture

they rule by fear and power

arrogance and pushed it to the limit

[balantz]

28. Sadistic minds must have an entertainment outlet to fulfill.

[EFerrari]

29. It's not only that. Cheney saw his bigger picture going down in flames.

Losing in Afghanistan, losing in Iraq. Losing public support that he could divert to fund contracts for his cronies. He needed something and he needed it fast. Oh, and he's an idiot -- just the kind of idiot who believes that, against all reliable results, he can make torture work.

[Virginia Dare]

38. It's the same type of arrogance that brought Nixon down..

except ten times worse. These guys claim they learned from the Nixon years. I'm not so sure. Money and power will ultimately corrupt one beyond rationality.

[EFerrari]

40. Ten times worse and written on the bodies of innocent people.

Cheney is as dangerous as possible. He's like a vector in a community.

[EFerrari]

30. WaHo: Vice President for Torture / 2005 - editorial

Vice President for Torture

Wednesday, October 26, 2005; Page A18

VICE PRESIDENT Cheney is aggressively pursuing an initiative that may be unprecedented for an elected official of the executive branch: He is proposing that Congress legally authorize human rights abuses by Americans. "Cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment of prisoners is banned by an international treaty negotiated by the Reagan administration and ratified by the United States. The State Department annually issues a report criticizing other governments for violating it. Now Mr. Cheney is asking Congress to approve legal language that would allow the CIA to commit such abuses against foreign prisoners it is holding abroad. In other words, this vice president has become an open advocate of torture.

His position is not just some abstract defense of presidential power. The CIA is holding an unknown number of prisoners in secret detention centers abroad. In violation of the Geneva Conventions, it has refused to register those detainees with the International Red Cross or to allow visits by its inspectors. Its prisoners have "disappeared," like the victims of some dictatorships. The Justice Department and the White House are known to have approved harsh interrogation techniques for some of these people, including "waterboarding," or simulated drowning; mock execution; and the deliberate withholding of pain medication. CIA personnel have been implicated in the deaths during interrogation of at least four Afghan and Iraqi detainees. Official investigations have indicated that some aberrant practices by Army personnel in Iraq originated with the CIA. Yet no CIA personnel have been held accountable for this record, and there has never been a public report on the agency's performance.


It's not surprising that Mr. Cheney would be at the forefront of an attempt to ratify and legalize this shameful record. The vice president has been a prime mover behind the Bush administration's decision to violate the Geneva Conventions and the U.N. Convention Against Torture and to break with decades of past practice by the U.S. military. These decisions at the top have led to hundreds of documented cases of abuse, torture and homicide in Iraq and Afghanistan. Mr. Cheney's counsel, David S. Addington, was reportedly one of the principal authors of a legal memo justifying the torture of suspects. This summer Mr. Cheney told several Republican senators that President Bush would veto the annual defense spending bill if it contained language prohibiting the use of cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment by any U.S. personnel.

The senators ignored Mr. Cheney's threats, and the amendment, sponsored by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), passed this month by a vote of 90 to 9. So now Mr. Cheney is trying to persuade members of a House-Senate conference committee to adopt language that would not just nullify the McCain amendment but would formally adopt cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment as a legal instrument of U.S. policy. The Senate's earlier vote suggests that it will not allow such a betrayal of American values. As for Mr. Cheney: He will be remembered as the vice president who campaigned for torture.

[EFerrari]

31. AP: Cheney pushes senators for exemption to CIA torture ban (2005)

Cheney pushes senators for exemption to CIA torture ban

WASHINGTON (AP) — Vice President Dick Cheney made an unusual personal appeal to Republican senators this week to allow CIA exemptions to a proposed ban on the torture of terror suspects in U.S. custody, according to participants in a closed-door session.

Cheney told his audience the United States doesn't engage in torture, these participants added, even though he said the administration needed an exemption from any legislation banning "cruel, inhuman or degrading" treatment in case the president decided one was necessary to prevent a terrorist attack.

The vice president made his comments at a regular weekly private meeting of Senate Republican senators, according to several lawmakers who attended. Cheney often attends the meetings, a chance for the rank-and-file to discuss legislative strategy, but he rarely speaks.

In this case, the room was cleared of aides before the vice president began his remarks, said by one senator to include a reference to classified material. The officials who disclosed the events spoke on condition of anonymity, citing the confidential nature of the discussion.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-11-04-cheneytortureban_x.htm

[EFerrari]

32. CNN: Powell aide: Torture 'guidance' from VP (2005)

Powell aide: Torture 'guidance' from VP
Former staff chief says Cheney's 'flexibility' helped lead to abuse

Sunday, November 20, 2005; Posted: 5:18 p.m. EST (22:18 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A former top State Department official said Sunday that Vice President Dick Cheney provided the "philosophical guidance" and "flexibility" that led to the torture of detainees in U.S. facilities.

Retired U.S. Army Col. Larry Wilkerson, who served as former Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff, told CNN that the practice of torture may be continuing in U.S.-run facilities.

"There's no question in my mind that we did. There's no question in my mind that we may be still doing it," Wilkerson said on CNN's "Late Edition."

"There's no question in my mind where the philosophical guidance and the flexibility in order to do so originated -- in the vice president of the United States' office," he said. "His implementer in this case was Donald Rumsfeld and the Defense Department."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/20/torture/index.html

:wow:

[EFerrari]

34. AP: White House Denies Cheney Endorsed Torture (10/ 2006)

And, here is the official denial:

(CBS/AP) The White House denied Friday that Vice President Dick Cheney had endorsed "water boarding" — a technique many consider torture — when he said earlier this week that dunking terrorism suspects in water during interrogations was a "no-brainer."

Cheney's comments sparked an outcry from human rights groups, which claimed his statement amounted to an endorsement of water boarding, an age-old technique in which a prisoner's head is kept under water to simulate drowning.

"This country doesn't torture. We will interrogate people we pick up on the battlefield," President Bush said Friday. He declined, however, to directly respond to reporters' questions about Cheney's remarks.

White House press secretary Tony Snow insisted the vice president was not referring to water boarding.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/27/terror/main2130533.shtml

[balantz]

37. I keep thinking of that mysterious building blown up in Syria a few months back.

[EFerrari]

41. How? What did it mean, do you think? n/t

[balantz]

42. Could there have been important prisoners held there?

I could be way off, but something was wiped off the face of the earth, and from what I remember it didn't appear to be a nuclear reactor site.

[EFerrari]

43. You may be right. There have been conflicting stories about

that site, iirc.

[balantz]

44. I read on this board recently about a Syrian connection with the 911 terrorists

and the CIA.

[ThomWV]

45. Has it occurred to anyone that the signal would have passed through that black box FISA room?

The same machines that monitor every other communication coming in and out of this country would catch that feed too. NSA monitors it own.

[EFerrari]

47. Wouldn't that have given access to too many people?

We know Cheney is paranoid as hell. :shrug:

[balantz]

46. The odds are greater that somebody, somewhere has these recordings.

[EFerrari]

48. Right. And my speculation is, that the people on the CIA side of this do.

Cheney is always shredding, erasing, denying, obstructing. But, CIA has a stake in preserving the evidence. Because they've been abused by him before.

[balantz]

49. There would be ass-covering.

[EFerrari]

51. Of course. n/t

[understandinglife]

50. No need for tape. Likely streamed the video to storage devices. And, they ..

... could easily multi-cast, real-time or replay, via their secure nets.

In fact, I doubt if any physical "tape" exists. Folk viewing the stuff are likely sitting in front of a monitor and are viewing the video the same way you view YouTube. Much easier to erase centrally managed digital archive devices, as well.

Candidate device - http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/architecture.html

imho ....

[balantz]

52. Not being a technology person, are you saying that even if erased

there could easily be copies?

[understandinglife]

60. No. I'm saying that any technology savvy person could ensure that ...

... all the video/audio recording devices were streaming to fast storage devices. And, protocols (i.e., specific applications programs) could have been put in place to erase every single bit, should any chance that what was being done and recorded might become detected and folk of ethical stature seek to view/listen to such recorded events.

Thus, they could readily, using quite standard technology, have multi-cast to various folk, be they in the WH or Langley or wherever, and recorded their torture-enabled interrogations for replay, and structured the system to ensure no one with any sense of the law, ethics, human decency would ever be able to view their actions.

Whether the dudes actually used 'quite standard technology' to do so is an open issue. Given some of their obvious failures to understand digital and network technology, during the past seven years, it may be that all kinds of discoverable evidence of their crimes against humanity and war crimes may still persist on tapes, storage devices, network logs, etc.

[EFerrari]

53. Thank you!

:)

[blondeatlast]

54. Note how carefully the statement last week from the WH was. Timing meant EVERYTHING.

I don't do tinfoil, but this I'm convinced of--at least Cheney saw it LIVE.

Yuck.

[EFerrari]

56. Which statement? n/t

[blondeatlast]

57. This is the one (sorry--busy day yesterday):

"My first recollection was when Michael Hayden briefed me," Bush said.

"There's a preliminary inquiry going on and I think you'll find that a lot more data, facts will be coming out," he said, "that's good. It will be interesting to know what the true facts are."

My first thought when I heard that was they remembered Watergate--WHEN they knew is as important as that they knew. I tend to parse language that seems "unnatural" and this smacked of it:

"My first recollection of whether the tapes existed or whether they were destroyed..." means he KNEW but is pretending he didn't. Note the word "recollection" as opposed to "knowledge," I find that a tremendously odd way of putting it. Since it was a prepared statement, not offered through the WH Bratz doll, they had time to carefully construct it--and they did. :wtf:

I really believe the WH had a live feed and even if it wasn't for a prurient interest (which I think it was to some degree), it makes sense that they would want to know what's going on.

[EFerrari]

59. And now with a fire in Cheney's offices, another crime is scene

destroyed.

Where IS Dick Cheney?

Edit: My "ear" does that too, when speech gets unidiomatic as that statement of Bush's last week. It's like a loud wrong note or something, and I do exactly the same thing, go back and look at the composition. :)

[EFerrari]

58. White House role in CIA tapes expands

White House role in CIA tapes expands

Published: Dec. 19, 2007 at 8:06 AM

WASHINGTON, Dec. 19 (UPI) -- More people at the White House were involved in discussing destroying CIA interrogation videos than first reported, The New York Times reported.

Senior administration officials, who asked not to be identified because of an ongoing Justice Department investigation, told the newspaper at least four top White House lawyers took part in discussions with the CIA as to whether the tapes showing violent interrogation techniques should be destroyed.

The debate ran between 2003 and November 2005, when the tapes were destroyed on the orders of Jose Rodriguez, then the chief of the agency's clandestine branch.

The newspaper said among those in the discussions were Alberto Gonzales, who served as White House counsel until early 2005; David Addington, who was the counsel to U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney and is now his chief of staff; John Bellinger, who until January 2005 was the senior lawyer at the National Security Council; and Harriet Miers, who succeeded Gonzales as White House counsel.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/12/19/white_house_role_in_cia_tapes_expands/8563/


Bush aides tied to probe
Officials say White House staffers were in on talks regarding CIA videotapes

By MARK MAZZETTI and SCOTT SHANE, New York Times
First published: Wednesday, December 19, 2007

WASHINGTON -- At least four top White House lawyers took part in discussions with the CIA between 2003 and 2005 about whether to destroy videotapes showing the secret interrogations of two al-Qaida operatives, according to current and former administration and intelligence officials.


The accounts indicate that the involvement of White House officials in the discussions before the destruction of the tapes in November 2005 was more extensive than Bush administration officials have acknowledged.

Those who took part, the officials said, included Alberto R. Gonzales, who served as White House counsel until early 2005; David S. Addington, who was the counsel to Vice President Dick Cheney and is currently his chief of staff; John B. Bellinger III, who until January 2005 was the senior lawyer at the National Security Council; and Harriet E. Miers, who succeeded Gonzales as White House counsel.

It was previously reported that some administration officials advised against destroying the tapes, but the emerging picture of White House involvement is more complex. In interviews, several administration and intelligence officials provided conflicting accounts as to whether anyone at the White House expressed support for the idea that the tapes should be destroyed.

http://www.timesunion.com/ASPStories/Story.asp?StoryID=648436&Category=NATIONAL&LinkFrom=RSS

[Blackhatjack]

61. There was videotape that Sen Lindsay Graham(R-SC) saw regarding his famous statement on: Abu Ghra

I recall he came out and said we are talking about rape and murder here.

Now that is one tape which we know exists, and should be covered by court orders against destruction.

Then there is the statement by Seymour Hersh about the sodomizing of young boys and their screaming in the background, 'which your government has.'

There are likely hundreds of tapes destroyed at this point. Question is ... who has maintained copies to defend themselves in case they are charged with crimes?

[EFerrari]

63. That is the central question. As far as I can tell from my reading,

Cheney ordered CIA to torture and papered over the legal concerns. So, we're not talking about all kinds of entities but most likely, these two camps.

There may have been a DOD arm of this program but that would have been enabled by Rumsfeld, Cheney's evil twin. At very least, Rumsfeld made sure DOD personnel were compliant if not active with the program.

CIA seems to be fixing to turn over evidence to hang Cheney -- surprise.

The real wild card here isn't the antipathy between CIA and Cheney but the consequences to the private sector -- security contractors -- where both Cheney and various CIA types have interests or plan to retire into.

[Oilwellian]

62. These psychopathic criminals in our WH...

have no boundaries. I wouldn't put ANYTHING past them. It will take decades for us to live down the atrocities these animals have inflicted on humanity.