16 year old Canadian girl killed by father for not wearing hijab

[JBoy]

In Mississauga, suburb of Toronto:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071212.wgirl12/BNStory/National/home


-snip -

Aqsa Parvez was largely estranged from her family and sleeping away from home in recent days. The 16-year-old's friends said she returned to her home in Mississauga on Monday only to collect her belongings. Shortly afterward, she was taken to hospital, where she died early Tuesday morning – leaving friends grief-stricken and igniting a public debate on religious extremism in Canada.

Her father, 57-year-old taxi driver Muhammad Parvez, is charged with murder. Her brother, 26-year-old Waqas Parvez, is charged with obstructing police.

Ms. Parvez's friends described the Grade 11 student at Applewood Heights Secondary School as someone who was drawn to Western culture even as her family adhered to a devout form of Islam. Last week, Ms. Parvez temporarily moved in with a friend from school. “She said she wasn't getting along well with her family and that things weren't right,” said Trudy Looby, the mother of one of Ms. Parvez's friends, Alisha. “When she was here, she was very happy.” During her stay, Ms. Looby said, Ms. Parvez didn't wear the hijab, a head scarf that friends said was a hot topic within her family.

...

On Monday morning, Peel Regional Police responded to a 911 call from a man who said he had just killed his daughter. When officers arrived at a single-family detached home on Longhorn Trail, they found Ms. Parvez suffering from life-threatening injuries. She was taken immediately to Credit Valley Hospital and later transferred in critical condition to the Hospital for Sick Children, where she died.

...

“Aqsa was honestly the brightest girl around. She had the biggest smile and was the happiest person in school. She loved to dance and take pictures,” one student wrote.

--------------------------

This kind of shit is what's wrong with the world today.

[slackmaster]

1. More religious intolerance and cultural insensitivity on DU

:sarcasm:

[Bobbieo]

24. How can these devout Muslims be happy - even comfortable-

living in a Westernized culture that goes against every grain of their
Muslim beliefs?

Surely the father could have found emmployment in a place that woiuld have been more suitable to their needs. Now he will be convicted of murder.

[iamthebandfanman]

85. im not sure how i am to take your post?

are you suggesting you would have found it morally acceptable because of his 'beliefs' to murder someone? and that you feel sorry he didnt live somewhere that he could do it and nobody care?
what?


i dont care what religion you are, if you kill someone you deserve punishment.

this is just more proof of why religion is bunk and full of hate(all modern religions).

[leftynyc]

98. I don't think that's what the poster was saying

(sorry to jump in). I think his/her point was why did this person move to a country or stay in a country (if born in Canada) that obviously didn't reflect his worldview. If he wants to be able to dictate what his daughter wears or does, he needs to get out of Canada. There are laws against this kind of stuff whereas there are middle eastern countries that would give him the award for father of the year. Now the prick can spend the rest of his life behind bars. Good riddance (spit).

[iamthebandfanman]

136. probably for the same reason

that most people go to other countries to live, financial and economic ones.
i hope he spends the rest of his life behind bars, the evil bastard deserves it.

[WildEyedLiberal]

122. Yeah, too bad he didn't still live somewhere where he can murder his daughter without consequences

[yardwork]

168. That comment struck me the same way.

[ecstatic]

140. No... The line is definitely drawn when someone is harmed in any way

due to someone else's beliefs.

[sakabatou]

2. This is old news

It's a repeat from LBN, but it's needed.

[cali]

6. old news?

Didn't she die yesterday? I'd hardly call this old news.

[sakabatou]

9. By that I mean not LBN

Should have called it yesterdays news.

:hide:

[JBoy]

10. Haven't seen a thread on this

can you find a link?

[sakabatou]

17. I can't find the link

It was somewhere else that I read it.

Sorry guys :(

Edit: Maybe it is new, and I'm going nuts :crazy:

[JBoy]

22. No problem

There's been an abundance of, shall we say, religion-related discussion lately. Hard to tell one tragedy from another.

:hi:

[opihimoimoi]

3. Brainwashed into Madness ...the World plows on in IGNORANCE

BA3

[The Straight Story]

4. Damn christians and their violent....oh wait

:rofl:

[IndianaJones]

5. Islam is a religion of peace. nt.

[Tyler Durden]

18. You know what you are, so there's no point in saying it.

[IndianaJones]

42. religion card. nt.

[Tyler Durden]

60. OHH, THAT's what you just played.

Thanks for saying it for me.

Shame on you.

[Occulus]

147. So... you *don't* think religious fundamentalism is something to be ruthlessly stamped out?

Just making sure I understand you clearly.

[SteelPenguin]

164. Not all Muslims are Fundamentalists

Islam does not equal Islamic Fundamentalism

Not all Christians are burning down black churches, bombing abortion clinics, etc.

Fundamentalism is bad. Period.

[yardwork]

167. He's a prophet of peace.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

50. It is

don't take the actions of one person as indicative of how all Muslims act.

[Tyler Durden]

87. Ins'allah.

They will either awaken or they will not.

As God Wills.

[cali]

107. so much for your atheist thing.

If you are an atheist, that smug little post is bullshit. Atheists don't say such things as "As God Wills". Or at least they shouldn't. Looks more than a little hypocritical.

[Tyler Durden]

109. Oh give it a rest.

And what would you know about what some atheist says or doesn't say? Not all of us are militant assholes.

Don't try out for that team. It will make the rest of us look at you and roll our eyes.

[cali]

111. bwahahaha

why don't you take your own advice? You're the one that's got over a dozen posts here, pretending to know all there is to know about other posters, judging them hastily, dropping your words of "wisdom". And you don't know my beliefs either. You are soooo full of it.

[Yupster]

159. I read an incredibly interesting book recently

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/14/books/14grim.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

It's about a woman who grew up in Somalia and also lived in Saudi Arabia, Kenya, Ethiopia, Holland and now the USA.

She tells her story as a woman growing up in a society following a tribal variation of Islam, and then Saudi Arabia following the more strict version of Islam. Her story is one of questioning why Islam is so backward when it comes to the rights of women.

The term "God wills it" is important because that was the answer she got whenever she asked if the prophet is infinitly just, then why is a woman's testimony worth half a man's. Why can't women drive in Saudi Arabia? Why can a man have three wives but a woman can't have more than one husband? Why must a girl marry a 50 year old man because her dad says so.

The answer she got was "it's allah's will" and things will change or they won't as allah wills it.

Incredibly interesting story of a woman who's now in hiding.

[leftynyc]

100. One person???

Surely you jest. There's a thread about honor killings and the like almost everyday here. Not in Canada surely, but this is hardly an isolated case of male muslims thinking they dicate the lives of their wives/mothers/daughers.

[Quantess]

108. It's always "an isolated case", isn't it?

It's always "one bad apple", isn't it? Just one violent extremist. Every other Muslim is kind, gentle, and would never do something like what happened in this one isolated case, right? One isolated case after another.

[treestar]

145. It is. Every time there is domestic violence in the U.S., it proves

the U.S. is an inherently bad place with inherently bad people? No. Or every time there is a mass shooting in the U.S., then why wouldn't it prove a similar thing, that the U.S. is inherently violent?

Yet whenever one of these stories is published, the entire religion is attacked.

[riderinthestorm]

148. uh, the US is an inherently violent place, with a LOT of bad people

I would have no problem with a blanket statement that the US has a truly enormous problem with violence. Our statistics demonstrate that....

[yardwork]

169. Well, these murders don't exactly prove that the religious are not inherently bad, do they?

I mean, you brought up the word "prove." What does it prove when the U.S. has many orders of magnitude more murders than most other developed countries? Doesn't exactly prove that we are the most peaceful place, does it?

Seems to me that when religious people murder others in the name of religion, their religion might deserve a good close look.

[SteelPenguin]

165. I know hundreds of muslim americans

All of them are great people, kind, gentle, warm, friendly.

Christians do pretty crappy things every day too for religious reasons, but it's generally not mentioned in the context of religion because it's not pertinent.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/28213/Mum-dying-of-cancer-kills-her-son-aged-5-then-commits-suicide

This nice white Christian woman killed her son so he'd be with her in heaven. That's a pretty fucked up thing for a Christian to do, but I don't therefore think that all Christians are crazy.

[Dorian Gray]

75. I don't think that these types of murders

are so much about Islam as they are about the cultures. Certain Middle-Eastern cultural groups were more prone to accepting such treatment than others, for whatever reason. There are Islamic countries where it would be really unusual to find this type of treatment of women. (Malaysia!) The culture there is primarily East Asian, a far different culture than the Arabic or Persian cultures.

[Terran]

81. Guessing this family is Pakistani

And while I don't know about Pakistani culture generally in this regard, certainly in India, violence against women within families is rampant and somewhat tolerated, and is committed for reasons that have nothing to do with religious issues. Google "wife burning".

[Dorian Gray]

82. Pakistan

has many of the same cultural "upbringing" that India has, as it was once a part of India and was partitioned off by the British, I believe. (Along with Bangladesh.) They were divided among religious and ethnic lines, but I think you will find some of the same or similar cultural practices between the Non-Muslim Indians and the Muslim Pakistanis in the border areas.

[Lint Head]

7. Bigotry is bigotry and it is dangerous.

Religious bigots are responsible for deaths every day. :dem:

[ProfessorGAC]

8. This Isn't A Religious Thing

The guy is a murderous sociopath and used religion as a rationalization. The real problem is that this guy is out to lunch. This could have happened no matter his justification.
The Professor

[Ilsa]

13. Yeah. That makes the most sense, I guess, at least for most cases. nt

[cgrindley]

14. Does clutching at straws really work? (nt)

[Tyler Durden]

19. You ALSO know what you are, so there's no point in saying it.

[piedmont]

26. What, rational and intelligent?

I'd say that's about right.

[Tyler Durden]

36. No, bigoted and dismissive.

I work with the local UCC and the Isalmic Center of Flint, and neither you, nor the other two bigots have ANY experience with Muslims other than what you pick up from the Tabloid Press.

Damascus was a METROPOLIS and Toledo had public lighting on paved streets and public libraries where ALL literature was revered when London was a village of mud huts.

[piedmont]

48. Do I give a shit what you've done?

Nope, I don't.

[Tyler Durden]

61. Which proves my point, in spades.

Uniformed, uninvolved, and therefore unintelligent.

[piedmont]

63. Not really.

Just shooting down another argument-from-personal-experience.

[Tyler Durden]

84. GEE, just go get a "Don't confuse me, I've already made up my mind"

Bumper sticker.

You've got some compadres in the "God Said it, I believe it, that settles it" crowd.

[piedmont]

88. Why would I do that? No one has made a credible attempt at changing my mind.

You still haven't provided any evidence that cgrindley is not rational and intelligent.

[Tyler Durden]

92. As you have determined to "buddy up" with this person...

...and have descended into rabble rousing, I have no desire to converse with you. I don't argue for entertainment, as you and cgrindley appear to do.

[piedmont]

94. Aw, fiddlesticks. I was having such a good time rabblerousing.

:hi:

[Tyler Durden]

96. A boring no text attempt at being "cute."

It just makes the list of who I think I need to respond to even shorter.

Slide on down to Post #52 and hang with "Archie."

[piedmont]

97. Why should I include text for a person who doesn't want to converse with me?

Having trouble making up your mind?

[Tyler Durden]

95. Try reading his post #52.

My god. Archie Bunker revisited.

He doesn't give two shits about Islam: he's mad about the degrading of Vancouver, and who does he blame? Immigrants from the East.

He would fit right in with the Anti-Hispanic Republicans. Shame.

[cgrindley]

105. I don't give two shits about Islam... why the fuck should I?

It's an assmunch religion like all other religions.

And Vancouver has been degraded. By pretty much every single person who lives there regardless of race, color or creed. Vancouver sucks and its suckitude cannot be attributed to any one group. All groups have done their part both individually and together. Vancouver is pretty much a melting pot of suck, a patchwork of suck.

[CreekDog]

139. I say call a spade a shovel

FYI

[cgrindley]

56. That's just silly

The Romans had flush toilets when Damascus was a slovenly dump. Does that mean we should be tolerant of gladiatorial games and slavery?

[Tyler Durden]

83. Actually, Damascus PREDATES Rome.

Rome is a Johnny-come-lately in the civilization game. Try again.

[cgrindley]

101. I didn't say it didn't... I called it a slovenly dump (nt)

[AngryAmish]

99. Damascus being the leader in anything was a long time ago

By virtually any objective standard the vast majority of Muslims live in technologically backward societies. Look at the number of patents coming out of their societies, number of engineers, Nobel Prize winners...almost anything. Comparatively few western books are translated into Arabic, Farsi or whatever language the Muslims happen to read (or not read -- many more illiterates in the Muslim world, per capita).

There are exceptions. Not every western nation creates things. But as a whole there is something about the culture which has stymied progress for a long time.

[leftynyc]

104. Big fucking deal and just

exactly what does that have to do with this case? We read about these cases every day but shouldn't say anything because Damascus was once a light onto the world a very long time ago? Is that really the idiotic argument you're going to use?

[Tyler Durden]

15. Thank you and Bless You.

[cali]

21. you can't know that.

And facts regarding the number of women who meet this kind of fate within Islam, argue against the conclusion that it's not a religious thing. Odds are that it is at least partly due to religion.

[Tyler Durden]

29. It's due to unbalanced people, using religion as an excuse.

Sort of like using the claim that the Bible says "Wives submit to your husbands" as an excuse for marital rape.

[cali]

38. I agree with that, but religion is also a factor

One can't say this would have happened without the influence of religion. I believe it's a combination of factors- and religion is one of them.

[Tyler Durden]

43. Like "Helter Skelter" influenced Charles Manson.

Judaism, Islam, Christianity are all religions of peace, and you're hearing THAT from an atheist.

Read "Breakfast of Champions" by Kurt Vonnegut, and you'll get a good picture how ideas can be poison to the unbalanced mind.

[cali]

54. I've read it. Not for some years, but

I really don't need Kurt Vonnegut to teach me that almost any idea can be poisonous.

And I disagree that Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all religions of peace. Read the texts and you'll find that there's lots of evidence to contradict that assertion. History also teaches us that religion has oft been used not for peace, but for discrimination, war and even genocide. And it's easy to say that it's all about those with unbalanced minds, but the truth is far, far more complex than that. That's the easy way out of a thorny discussion.

The fact is that women dying due to Islamic law and tradition is not that unususal. In some cultures Islam is indeed an instrument of oppression for women. Look at the rape victim in Saudi Arabia. Can that simply be blamed on unbalanced minds? No, of course not. In this case, you could well be right; it could indeed be a case of a man with an unbalanced mind. Or it could be that he's unbalanced and part of that is his interpretation of his religion- not to mention other factors.

[leftynyc]

106. If it's unbalanced people like you say

why are there countries in the mid-east that have sharia law on the books? Where this kind of behavior is tolerated or given just a slap on the wrist? It is religion - pull your head out of the sand.

[Chulanowa]

62. Because only muslims kill women, amirite?

"She didn't get me a beer fast enough!"

[Marrah_G]

71. That makes no sense

No one here is saying that and I am pretty sure you know that.

[cali]

77. no, but nice attempt at a smear, cupcake.

The fact is that women are oppressed to a greater degree in some Islamic countries than Christian women are in any "Christian" country. I choose to compare the two religions because they are by far the two dominant religions in the world.

It's not a slam on Islam as a whole to recognize that quite a few Islamic countries oppress women terribly- including the practice of honor killings- not that this is an example of one.

I find your cavalier attitude about the opression of women revolting.

[Tyler Durden]

86. And I find your "Glittering Generalities" depressing.

They do it in Saudi Arabia, Gee they must do it EVERYWHERE.

We have a whole PLETHORA of Christian sects here that think everything from killing abortion doctors to force-wedding 14 year old girls to playing "Catch" with rattlesnakes and drinking strychnine are all perfectly fine...

I guess crazy is as crazy does. Has little to do with the actual PHILOSOPHY unless you pervert it.

By the way, Luther, the Father of all protestant sects was a rabid anti Semite. Guess if your a Christian, by your "logic", that makes you one too.

[cali]

102. stop making shit up and self-righteously flinging it about under the illusion

that you're scattering pearls of wisdom. You're not. I was careful to state that some Islamic societies practice a form of Islam that is extremely oppressive to women. I pointedly said that this is not true of ALL Islamic societies. We are talking about the oppression of women here, even if you're desperately running around saying "look over there".

Some Islamic sects practice a form of Islam that OPPRESSES the hell out of women. OK, maybe you don't give a shit about that. I do. So do others. We are NOT impugning the entire religion. something your wee mind can't seem to grasp.

And btw, I know about Luther. It's always amusing when someone on this board assumes that no one could possibly know what they do- even something as basic as that. So happens that I have two MAs in history.

Go fling your self-righteous shit at someone else. I'm not interested in your one dimensional outrage.

[Chulanowa]

118. I find your blind ignorance of abuse of woman in your own backyard to be worse

How many girls and women end up dead, hospitalized, or sheltered every day in the United States? Great Britain? France? Any of these other places that I suppose you would call a Christian country?

Pretending that this is a problem exclusive to or stemming from a single religion's dysfunctions is not just ignorant, it's a disgusting refusal to acknowledge what's really going on around you from all the other departments.

[cali]

157. Gee, another lame ass, ignorant attack.

I spent 6 years as a Victim Advocate, much of it dealing with domestic abuse. So take your shit and shove it back up where it belongs.

[LakeSamish706]

23. I agree totally with you.... This really had nothing to do with religion, but...

more to do with a fathers state of mind. It would seem to me that daddy was a control freak and couldn't stand his 16 year old saying no to him.

[Marrah_G]

28. Yes, it is a religious thing

It is an extremist religious thing. To say it has nothing to do with religion is being disingenuous and really down plays the struggle Muslim women around the world face from these zealots.

[LakeSamish706]

31. I think it is a mental control thing as much as it might be religious based!

Otherwise every Muslim father in the world would be killing there child that doesn't want to follow the religious teachings of the household.

[Marrah_G]

37. That would be why I called him an extremist

There are a great deal of these extremists out there. It's just alot rarer to find them living among cultures they despise. The majority of Muslims are not like this man. But people like this do exist, their mosques preaching this BS exist, to deny they do out of fear of insulting the non zealous Muslims is really downplaying a struggle that Muslim women still fight today. their fight is real, their pain is real, their deaths ARE real. Only when people are confronted by truth can they make strides to change. Denying it just attempts to make the problems invisible.

[Boojatta]

34. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a murderous sociopath and used religion as a rationalization.

Do you agree?

[Tyler Durden]

39. I agree as an atheist that you're the 4th religious bigot I count on this thread.

[Boojatta]

44. Can you recommend a biography of Muhammad that is

reasonably complete and -- in your opinion -- unbiased, and that describes no unlawful killings of people on the direct orders of Muhammad?

How would you describe Al Capone? Did Capone personally kill anyone or did he simply express his honest opinion that he would be pleased if some particular people did not live long lives?

[Tyler Durden]

53. Can you recommend a biography of ANYONE from 570 AD

that is reasonably complete and unbiased?

Try this one, though. It's based on a ROMAN CATHOLIC history written in 1910, and is pretty concise.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm

I don't see many errors in it, but then, I am a heathen atheist.

[Boojatta]

59. From your source:

And yet he was ruthless in his dealings with the Jews, when once he had ceased to hope for their submission. He approved of assassination, when it furthered his cause; however barbarous or treacherous the means, the end justified it in his eyes; and in more than one case he not only approved, but also instigated the crime.

Do you accept PETA's interpretation of chicken farming as comparable to the holocaust? In other words, is assassination of Jews not like killing of a human beings, but merely like the slaughter of chickens?

[Tyler Durden]

64. GOD do you cherry pick or WHAT?

You quoted from a pseudo-biography by PALGRAVE, right below the paragraph saying that

"The sources of Mohammed's biography are numerous, but on the whole untrustworthy, being crowded with fictitious details, legends, and stories. None of his biographies were compiled during his lifetime, and the earliest was written a century and a half after his death."


"Concerning his moral character and sincerity, contradictory opinions have been expressed by scholars in the last three centuries. Many of these opinions are biased either by an extreme hatred of Islam and its founder or by an exaggerated admiration, coupled with a hatred of Christianity."

[Boojatta]

68. I belong in the "or what" category.

These traditions, in fact, represent a gradual, and more or less artificial, legendary development, rather than supplementary historical information. According to them, Mohammed was simple in his habits, but most careful of his personal appearance. He loved perfumes and hated strong drink. Of a highly nervous temperament, he shrank from bodily pain. Though gifted with great powers of imagination, he was taciturn. He was affectionate and magnanimous, pious and austere in the practice of his religion, brave, zealous, and above reproach in his personal and family conduct. Palgrave, however, wisely remarks that "the ideals of Arab virtue were first conceived and then attributed to him". Nevertheless, with every allowance for exaggeration, Mohammed is shown by his life and deeds to have been a man of dauntless courage, great generalship, strong patriotism, merciful by nature, and quick to forgive. And yet he was ruthless in his dealings with the Jews, when once he had ceased to hope for their submission. He approved of assassination, when it furthered his cause; however barbarous or treacherous the means, the end justified it in his eyes; and in more than one case he not only approved, but also instigated the crime.

That is your source speaking, not a quote of some other source.

[Boojatta]

66. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) lived so long ago...

that it is very difficult to determine whether or not he was a murderous sociopath who used religion as a rationalization.

Do you agree or disagree?

[Tyler Durden]

89. VERY GOOD. A rational contention.

Which is why the generalizations regarding Islam are at best foolish and at worst religious bigotry.

On that, I think we can agree?

[Boojatta]

143. I will ignore your words of praise "very good" unless your condemnations are warranted.

You believe that it is difficult to determine whether or not the description of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is accurate, but you also believe that anyone who thinks that the description is accurate is a religious bigot. Correct?

[Tyler Durden]

152. Why is that an issue?

Lots of condemnations of religious figures from the past are based on the words of their opponents. Why not take a neutral attitude toward the practitioners of any religious belief who demonstrate good will toward ALL?

I'm an atheist leaning agnostic (definition: I'd LOVE to have the comfort of faith, but I can't make myself believe any of it) and 3 of the people I am honored to consider friends are the local UCC and Episcopal ministers, and the Imam of the Flint Islamic Center.

There are people who believe that Richard III was a kind and good king contrary to the Tudor accounts. One must remember that the Plantagenets (the white rose) fought the Tudors (the red rose) for almost 100 years. Histories are almost always written by and for the winners.

[Marrah_G]

46. You throw that word around pretty losely.

And if railing against extremist views that enslave and kill innocent women is bigotry in your book then feel free to write my name down on your "list".

[Tyler Durden]

58. Then you're Railing against OPUS DEI, The Southern Baptists...

Etcetera as well, correct?

Try actually READING the texts from the religions you want to "Rail" against. Q'ran says NOTHING about enslaving and killing innocent women. Extremists use any handy idea to run their bullshit against people they don't like.

OOPS. I think I just held up a mirror for you to look into.

I sat and comforted a devout young Muslim woman before a joint prayer service at a UCC church in Owosso. She was crying and asking "WHY do they hate US??? WE don't want what those crazy people want!"

One of the honors I count in my life was their Imam coming into the congregation and saying that the young woman told him they would be honored by God if they asked me to join the Call to Prayer. That's when I cried.

Shame on you.

[Marrah_G]

65. I would absolutely rail against anyone who killed their child in the name of religon

That you would give the extremist mosques a pass in the name of religion is very telling of your state of mind.

People are so damned afraid to offend moderate and liberal Muslims that they won't speak out against the extremists for fear of being labeled by someone like you. Until people stand up and say "no more- it is unacceptable" it will continue to happen. There are women being enslaved and killed in the name of Islam. A perverted form of Islam, but still, a form of Islam. All people need to stand up and say "enough- this is wrong".

You seem to think you know me or how I feel about particular groups and frankly, you have no clue. You are so far off it's almost amusing.

I am not ashamed nor will I ever be on topics such as this.

You can keep your "shame" it has no place in my life.

[Tyler Durden]

90. I give no "Extremists" a pass.

I merely state that crazy people will find something to reinforce their insanity, be it Christianity, Islam, or the Republican Party, and to GENERALIZE base on the group is for the peawit.

As far as where you are, I can only draw from what you say. Say something INCLUSIVE, and stay away from generalizing based on philosophy instead of where it belongs (deviant psychology) and I'm on your side.

[Marrah_G]

154. This isn't one or two people though- so the crazy thing doesn't fit

These are large groups of people who perpetrate these crimes against women, sometimes even sponsored by their own government, in turn lead by their religious leaders. I place them in the same place I put fundie Christians, only at this time in history, their actions are more extreme. They are a good sized part of a group, big enough that they control governments and billions of dollars. That does not make the entire group "bad". Shutting up and ignoring the problem because you may offend someone and besides... it's only women. is how this has gotten so bad in the first place.

What would you call them other then extremist Muslim sects? They are extremists, their common thread is their religion, no matter how perverted that view on religion has become. Is there a new word out there I don't know? If you don't approve of how I classify them, then please give me an example of a term that fits.

[cali]

69. oh for the love of rationality

Islam has a problem in some culture with how it treats women. That's just a fact. It's a fact that shouldn't be used to slam the religion as a whole, but it shouldn't be ignored either. And yes other religions have problems regarding the treatment of women. So? That doesn't mean we should ignore them either. And I don't think this case should be used as if it's representative of Islam as a whole. But it does represent a problem within a part of Islam.

[Tyler Durden]

91. OF COURSE it shouldn't be ignored....

But the failure lies in the USE of a philosophy to support a degenerate and deviant PSYCHOLOGY.

The idiots in Saudi Arabia or the Shiite Jihadists or the Sunni Wahabists are so far from the practice of their religion that they might as well be VIKINGS.

I condemn the deviant PSYCHOLOGY.

[Bobbieo]

45. Well Professor - What you are saying is that any male member

of the TAliban is a sociopath . I'll go along with that!!!!

[Marr]

67. This most certainly is a religious thing.

This is about a child not conforming to their fundamentalist parent's religious ideal, and the parent taking 'righteous' corrective action.

The father is out-of-touch, yes. And his particular brand of out-of-touch is called Fundamentalism.

[kineneb]

72. not religious: primitive ethnic power trip

from cultures that consider women to be property. Half my family is Islamic and they certainly do not act like this.

I am willing to bet that there were killings like this in the 19th century, when many immigrants from poor and "backward" Christian cultures came here.

Incidentally, my great-great grandfather (from Germany -1851) disinherited my great-grandfather. Why? Because GGfthr. married the woman he loved instead of the wealthy widow GGGfthr. had recommended.

[tblue37]

156. Not long ago someone posted a quote that makes a certain amount of sense to me.

I don't know who psoted it or whom he was quoting, but here it is:

There will always be good people who do good things and bad people who do bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.

I don't 100% agree with that, because I believe that any deeply held ideology, whether religious or secular, can cause what might otherwise be decent people to do evil things.

I think we have no way of knowing whether this man would have been sociopathic outside of his religious beliefs. His sociopathy is so obviously conditioned by beliefs rooted in his religious upbringing that I think there is no way to disentangle them. Not all Muslims believe it is okay to beat their daughters to death for not wearing a hijab, but the man's beleifs about his right to make such demands and then beat his daughter to death for not acceding to them is certainly a religiously conditioned belief.

[Ilsa]

11. Religious extremism and its consequences infuriate and sadden

me. That poor girl, having to be caught up in such madness in her home, and then deal with such brutality. I hope she rests in eace, or haunts the shit out of him.

[cgrindley]

12. I hope they charge him with a hate crime

If I were king of Canada... I'd tax the shit out of religion until it withered away completely.

[LakeSamish706]

27. We have an overwhelming East Indian population in Canada... Mostly...

in Ontario, but also very heavy in British Columbia... There are some problems like this in BC as well, but by enlarge it is a peaceful community that helps one another.

[cgrindley]

33. Peaceful? are you delusional?

Dude, I am British Columbian, and lived in Victoria from 1973-1992, 1997-2000, and then in Vancouver in 2003 before moving to the states for good...

Sikhs having sword fights in the streets over tables in their motherfucking temples. Religiously motivated assassinations of newspaper editors in their driveways.

and
let's
not
forget

AIR INDIA

that's not to mention Asian drug gangs running grow ops. Incredible intolerance due to monster homes. Boy racers. Malls.

BC is a racial powderkeg.

[LakeSamish706]

49. I don't think that the East Indian population is any more of a problem than...

many other ethnicities in BC... They stand out when violence does happen, but there is just as much violence stemming from the white community as well.

[cgrindley]

52. oh yeah, that too

personally, the biggest factor in me not missing Vancouver was the drug scene. I hate crackheads and junkies and prostitutes and they were making the neighborhood I lived in (Little India) a relentless horror. I don't miss Vancouver even a little.

[Tyler Durden]

93. Then FIX your city.

Part of the solution? No? Then you're part of the problem.

My God, you sound like Archie Bunker.

[cgrindley]

110. No way... screw Vancouver... I'm outta there

it started crawling up its own anus in about 1986. Good riddance. Vancouver sucks.

[JBoy]

120. You obviously had some bad experiences with Vancouver

I happen to think it's a great city. And as any large city, yes, it's got its share of issues. On the whole not worse than Toronto, which sucks goat balls.

[cgrindley]

127. Well, TO's problems start because it's in Eastern Canada

I just got sick and tired of seeing prostitutes giving handjobs in my alley. I once chased a crackhead down Fraser with a 9 iron after catching the numbfuck trying to break into my house. I actually got one asshole by the throat and threatened him with a 10 inch chef's knife when I caught him trying to jimmy the back window.

Vancouver is a great place to live if you live in Kits or Kerrisdale or Yaletown. But not everywhere is Kits.

Getting from Fraser and 49th to UBC (where I taught at the time) took nearly an hour by car. If I'd taken the bus, I'd still be late for class. Getting home was worse.

I just don't miss that place even a little. UBC was okay, though Pretty good school. Great students. Awesome colleagues.


PS I was actually born in Kingston but I claim to be British Columbian.

[leftynyc]

114. Just how many people on this thread are you

going to insult for not agreeing with you? You sound deranged. Railing against SOME people because they use their religion as a sword against their women doesn't make anyone a bigot and certainly anyone who chooses not to live around drug dealers and prostitutes isn't a bigot. Maybe you should go and lay down - a nap may help you. That's what helps most children get over a tantrum.

[Tyler Durden]

119. A jerk reveals the reasons he's a jerk and I'm a jerk for spotting it?

He showed his true colors. He resents the immigrants for supposedly lousing up "his town" and lumps Muslims in that category.

His rage had nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with his personal ax he was grinding. I almost felt guilty putting him on "IGNORE" but he was starting to get boring. I don't do this for entertainment.

YOU need to relax. I never even broke a sweat listening to those fools rant.

[leftynyc]

130. That's pretty funny

You talking about putting people on ignore. Thanks for the belly laugh of the day.

[Marrah_G]

16. Disgusting. Makes you wonder why he would pick a place like Canada to live

There are a bunch of countries that not only tolerate his inhumanity but actually encourage it.

As always, the women and children pay the price. I hope that man and the rest of her demented family never see the light of day again.

[The empressof all]

32. The article did not indicate he was an immigrant

It's possible he's a native Canadian. Either way it's religion gone bad.

[Marrah_G]

41. Even if he were born in Canada...

If he finds the culture and people so horrible why not move to a country where enslaving his wife and daughters is legal? Then he wouldn't have to waste time going to court and possibly to jail.

I just could not imagine living in a place so completely opposite of what I believed.

[CT_Progressive]

20. This is why religion needs to be scortched from the earth.

[DangerDave921]

30. OK

What if an atheist kills someone? Should atheism be scorched from the earth? That's the danger with broad generalizations -- you cast an awfully wide net.

[CT_Progressive]

47. There is no such thing as an "atheism religion".

An atheist is someone who doesn't have a religion.

There isn't a common shared philosophy.

Its no different than race, gender, etc.

[DangerDave921]

70. Not

My point was you can't banish all religion, which is practiced peacefully by billions of people, on the grounds of a few loonies. Anymore than you would banish all sports because some hooligans riot at a soccer game and stampede a few people.

It's called proportionality.

[gatorboy]

166. But your certainly obssessed with religion.

Why? I would assume you'd want to avoid it as much as possible but Athiests appear to bring it up every chance they get. :shrug:

[spoony]

74. This is why irony is so bloody delicious

You think you're so mentally superiour to all us religious rubes, and you can't even spell what you want to do to us. Lol.

[NeedleCast]

79. Your attitude is no less intolerant

than the fundies.

[leftynyc]

115. That wouldn't have stopped

Pol Pot, Mao or Stalin. There are plenty of people (the vast majority) practicing religion that don't bother anyone. They live quiet lives within the bounds of the law.

[iamthebandfanman]

137. yup!

organized religion (especially the major three) are corrupted to the bone by those who seek power, money, and even glory for themselves.
its a shame.
but hey, thats how things go on this planet. create something great to give people hope or some sort of peace of mind and someone will always be there to try and corrupt and use for their own personal gains.
aint greed a whore ?
lol

[donsu]

so religiously insane he murders his own daughter!

get him out of society

[juajen]

25. Not religious intolerance, but mysogony. Call it what it is.

The world over, religion is just an excuse to own and subjugate women and children. When we name it, we can continue to fight it. It doesn't matter if you're baptist or muslim, religion gives men an excuse to do what they want with women and their progeny. This man should be buried with a headscarf wrapped around his neck.

[durrrty libby]

35. Your assessment is right on

[donsu]

40. true and remember religions were made by men for men

nt

[CT_Progressive]

55. Right, because there are no women who do vile acts in the name of religion.

Like, for example, female suicide bombers....

Pfft.

Religion is to blame - stop making excuses.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

78. Women do indeed do vile acts in the name of religion

However, they don't do them to systemically oppress and dominate men. Men use religion to reinforce their power over women. Unfortunately, many women buy into the dogma that says they are beneath men and willingly collaborate in perpetuating that view.

The patriarchy is to blame and religion is just another excuse for it.

[leftynyc]

116. In fact, some female suicide bombers

are killing themselves to bring back the "honor" they lost by having the audacity to live their own lives their own way. I've read they are given a choice between getting killed by their families or becomming a martyr to the cause. Either way, it's men subjugating women.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

142. I've heard that too. That most female suicide bombers are forced into it.

It's the height of absurdity to use examples of women being complicit in carrying out patriarchal religious doctrines to suggest that the religions aren't inherently misogynistic. :crazy: Female genital mutilation is routinely performed by other females but that doesn't mean that it's not expressly intended to enhance male control. There will always be women who, for whatever reason, go along with the status quo. Oppression always requires that some members of the oppressed class help to enforce it.

[leftynyc]

153. I think they're given no choice in the matter

That the world doesn't scream every day about FGM is a blight on our humanity. Women in these countries are virtual slaves and using religion to justify it is one of the things that turns people off religion. Did you read that story today about Iraqi women in the police department are being ordered to hand over their guns? That's how it starts. Give the women no way to defend themselves. I know many people on this board are anti-gun but I'm not and here's a perfect reason why. Here I believe in the right to defend myself because this administration has has made me very paranoid about the government and that's really what the 2nd amendment is all about. I figure the other 9 bill of rights are to defend us against the government and I've always felt the 2nd does the same thing. So that's one of my answers - arm the women.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

160. I see your point. I can definitely get behind arming all the women. nt

[formerrepuke]

57. Exactly... Mysogyny masquerading as tradition/culture/religion.

[kineneb]

76. indeed: women and children seen as property, not people

and as objects to be controlled. (Sounds like some fundamentalist Christian groups to me.)

It was not so long ago that the US was the same- women were seen as 2nd class citizens, if that.

We forget our own history at our peril.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

80. Religion is the most effective tool the patriarchy has to perpetuate itself

Religion gives misogynists cover, even in a liberal state like Canada, to assert dominance over women. According to the article the girl expressed fears for her life to people. But "religious tolerance" prevented people from intervening in a very dangerous situation. You are correct that it doesn't matter what religion it is. Here in Arizona there is a community of fundamentalist Mormons who force 14 year old girls into polygamous marriages with men who are decades older. Their leader, Warren Jeffs, finally got hauled into court after decades of fending off prosecution under the banner of "religious freedom".

[Evoman]

126. I agree.

The number one problem in this world is the way men treat women. Almost universally, women are subjugated, demeaned and opressed. Religion is a large part of that problem, or maybe a justification for it, but only a part of it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

51. That is terrible!

[Dorian Gray]

73. So very sad

a father who could do this to his child is a monster.

And it also shows WHY she was attracted to the Western lifestyle rather than her family's life.

[knitter4democracy]

103. Poor thing. Bright young woman with all her life ahead of her--gone.

Just breaks my heart. I will pray for peace for that whole situation, justice for her murder, and hope through the grieving process, somehow, for her teachers, her friends, the family that's left who didn't keep her safe and will have to live with that for the rest of their lives, and for her soul to be at peace.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

112. Stupid Canadians.

Oh, wait, am I supposed to say stupid Muslims? Bigotry is so confusing these days.

:eyes:

[cali]

113. no. you're not supposed to say either. you're supposed to

do what we can always count on your doing; running around making inflammatory comments suggesting that other people are bigots for trying to grapple with a thorny issue with no easy answers. As always, you don't disappoint.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

117. No easy answers?

Give the guy a trial, sentence for murder if found guilty.

There. Easy answer. No reason to scapegoat a major world religion.

[cali]

121. umm. no. not that easy and you don't need to scapegoat Islam

to discuss the fact that some Islamic societies oppress women. That's not bigotry. It's a fact. It doesn't mean that there aren't Islamic cultures where oppression of women is not widespread. It means that in some Islamic cultures, the interpretation of Islam that's dominant does indeed oppress women. Too bad if you don't like reality.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. And lets not forget those bastards, the Canadians.

[Evoman]

132. Yep, we suck ass.

First we send an innocent man to be tortured overseas, then we let someone die by taser, and then we allow abuses of women to continue.

Canadians suck.

Plus the idiots here are getting more conservative, even though we have a good example of what happens with neo-con governments down south. Keep voting in conservative, you fucking idiot Canadians.

[Evoman]

131. This is true.

However, I wonder if you personally think that there is someway to prevent further cases like this. I would speculate that in order to prevent it in the future, you have to understand the problem. Understanding the problem requires discussion.

As a poster commented above, one of the major problems in society is misogyny (I think the problem is less a religion problem than a misogyny problem). Is there any way of preventing things like this happening, as well as lesser crimes such as spousal abuse, etc?

I just want to know your opinion on this. I agree with you about scapegoating.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

138. I say we ban pornography.

[Evoman]

141. Heh.

Alrighty then. Nevermind.

[Dr. Strange]

151. Depends...

You get some points if you blame Muslims and/or Canadians. You get a double score if you blame gays. You get a triple score (and a bonus spin!) if you find a way to blame Jeanne Assam.

Get your score card ready!

[MiniMandaRuth]

124. Hmmm....

This is bad.

But what's worse is that some people on DU will base all people of a religion on one persons mistakes.


:cry: she's only one year older than me.

[cali]

135. yes. some people will do that. And others will

not deal with the fact that religion plays a role in this, and that it's not an isolated thing- and it's certainly not a "mistake". It's murder.

[benld74]

125. Similar thing happened in St. Louis, a few years ago,

what broke the case wide open, was a wire tap inside the home, on an unrelated incident her father was involved with. The wire tap actually taped the audio of the girls death. She had dishonored the family for what she was doing and had to pay the price. Her father and mother were convicted of murder.

[Beelzebud]

128. Isn't religion wonderful?

[JNelson6563]

129. This poor girl!

I'm sure it was a horribly painful & violent end for her. Truly heartbreaking.

Julie

[Ino]

133. but...but...

it's culturally insensitive to say women forced to wear the veil should feel or are oppressed, but that they do it willingly - even happily!

:sarcasm:

[riderinthestorm]

150. Threads on veiling and oppression of women usually ramp up more than 1000 posts

as the cultural relativists scream "bigot" at those of us who try to articulate why those garments inherently demean women. I can't even begin to recount how many DU posts I've encountered that describe the "happily" (cough) burqa'ed in society.... (insert eye roll here...)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

161. Oh yes. Some women *cough* choose *cough* it.

As we know, all women's choices are independently made in a perfectly free context. Women in Muslim countries looooooove being veiled and locked down! Look, some of them say so! I'm sure they're saying so because that's how they really feel and not because they dare not offend their male masters! And just because they might be perceiving that their choice is between, wearing the burqa or, oh say, being murdered by their fathers or brothers, is no reason to go around claiming they aren't free to choose the burqa! :sarcasm:

[JBoy]

134. Story Update: Bail denied

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/284823

The father is being held without bail; not decided if he will be 1st or 2nd degree murder; police not revealing cause of death.

Oh, and the father has a heart condition. (I'll say. Warning: Killing your daughter is probably not good for your heart.)

[lightningandsnow]

144. I don't think it's fair to blame this on Islam.

What happened to this girl was a terrible, terrible tragedy. But child abuse is not a "Muslim" problem... it happens in every ethnic group and religion. There will always be parents who kill their children, sadly, for whatever reason.

This girl was killed by her devout Jehovah's Witness parents: http://mesh.medill.northwestern.edu/mnschicago/archives/2006/04/slacktwo_day_tw.html

And many child abuse cases have nothing to do with religion. I know a 13-year-old Christian white/european girl who has been in foster care since she was three, because her parents beat the crap out of her. Child abuse can happen to anyone, of any race or religion.

[Dave From Canada]

146. Yes, but this is just another example in a long list of examples. This girl, the gang-rape victim,

the teacher naming the teddy bear, the Danish cartoons, not to mention authors issued fatwa's and film-makers being killed.

[cgrindley]

149. Don't forget the ninth sura (nt)

[Contrary1]

155. Nowhere in the linked article does it say

that this girl was killed by her father "for not wearing hijab".

That may or may not have been the reason. It's bad enough that these things happen. Jumping to conclusions, based on a headline serves no purpose, other than furthering intolerance.

[seabeyond]

158. like any other abuses environment where parent murders child, just

using religion, or religious custom as excuse.

[MedleyMisty]

162. Beliefs influence actions

If he had never been brainwashed by religion into thinking that women have to wear headscarves and submit to men, would he have been motivated to do what he did?

Of course there were other factors but you can't deny that religion was a factor. It certainly wasn't instinctive and free of all cultural and social influences - fathers making their daughters wear head scarves and abusing and killing them when they don't is not natural behavior hard wired into our genes.

And yes, I know that nature and nurture are a lot more complicated than that and are infinitely intertwined but I'm trying to keep the post somewhat short and simple. My point is that religion has an effect on the behavior of people who follow that religion. It would be a very rare person who could believe that their religion teaches that homosexuality is a sin but not let that have any sort of effect on their opinions about and dealings with homosexual people. How many men do you know who have been taught that women are less than men and should submit to them and have accepted that teaching and really believe it but treat women as total equals?

I used to struggle with my intolerance for intolerant people, and I came up with this idea that if you were a bigot mentally but never showed it outside your house, okay, I don't have a problem with you. But the more I thought about it - how many people are racist but don't let that have an effect on anything they do in public life? I've never known a racist who didn't at the very least refuse to associate with or vote for people with different skin pigments.

Our beliefs influence our actions and our actions have consequences for ourselves and others. And when actions that spring from certain beliefs consistently have negative effects on large groups of people, I think it's time to rethink those beliefs.

And no, I don't mean thoughtcrime or outlawing any beliefs or anything like that. I hate this phrase a lot because it's so radical neocon unregulated capitalism-like, but it expresses my point - I mean that it's time to subject those beliefs to "the marketplace of ideas" and see if we can't come up with something better.

[applegrove]

163. The muslim community is speaking out against this. Bet the father was

mentally ill.