24 hours before I pull my support for Dennis Kucinich...

[RiverStone]

For voting YEA on HR 847, which was (exact quote) "recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith."

Unless...

Someone or Dennis himself gives me a damn good reason why he did vote YEA. I'll give DK the benefit of the doubt and wait a day.

Maybe he plans on introducing legislation for every known religion or belief system?

Why am I so angry about this? I'll simply say I grew up in the 60's as a kid in rural Georgia. Our household was smack dab in the heart of the Bible belt. We were not Christian and were pitched shit because of it.

I don't know if Dennis can relate to what it feels like to be in a minority religion when the dominant religious culture says you "should" believe this or that. Well, long ago I let go of the need for religion of any kind in my life; but the pain of what it felt like as a kid to be teased or ignored or excluded because I did not go to church or recognize scriptures from the Bible is entrenched in my memory.

I thought I lived in a country which tries to separate religion from government? This vote is not only our government's endorsement of religion, but a specific religion! I personally find HR 847 deeply offensive. HR 847 is so offensive to me personally that even with all my admiration for Dennis, his YEA vote could very well cost him my support. Of course, I'm deeply disappointed in the 371 other Representatives that voted YEA, but I was only working for the one named Dennis Kucinich in the primaries.

I remember what the Dalai Lama said when I listened to his wonderful words in person during his last visit to Portland Oregon:

My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.

I try to put those words to practice everyday...


peace~:)

[Bluebear]

1. I posted this at the same time . . . Kucinich just fell a few rungs for me.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2452175&mesg_id=2453271

Kick, rec, and thanks for the wonderful words about kindness.

[KoKo]

96. You don't think his courage in brining Articles of Impeachment to the House floor against Cheney

outweighs a silly vote that Repug Peter King brought up as a stunt? You don't think Kucinich's positions on everything that most DU'ers care about (according to DU Internal Polls) matters because he voted yes on a silly resolution? He's a Christian and so he voted yes. The resolution doesn't mandate that everyone in Congress be a Christian. It was just another of those grandstanding resolutions they do where they support Hinduism or whatever religion some idiot Congressperson has a Lobbyist or Interest Group telling them to do.

You would have preferred Dennis vote NO and have the RW Repugs and his fellow Dems saying he's against Christianity? :crazy:

[Bluebear]

100. 'He's a Christian and so he voted yes.' - that deserves rolly eyes too.

:crazy:

[magellan]

120. He could have voted 'present' as he does on complex war funding bills

Separation of church and state is a very important issue. He lost me with this one.

[Breeze54]

2. I'm sure he has his reasons...maybe bcause his candidacy needs their support?

He is in a fight.

Not that I think this stupid BS should even be being discussed at all!! :grr:

But why haven't you, if you haven't, signed this?


Today is Your Last Chance To Speak Out To Save Our Media From The FCC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2445708

Saving the media is more important than that crock of shit.

[gateley]

3. I didn't even pay attention to it or look into it at all because I just couldn't

fucking believe that it would be a vote on the House floor! WTF? And Dennis voted 'yea'? He's the LAST one of the candidates I would have thought would do that. You know that he won't vote for something unless he agrees with it in its entirety, so....? I just don't get "recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith". Where the fuck did that COME FROM? Just from the topic, I'm disappointed he supported it, too -- hope he redeems himself and explains why he voted that way.

[sakabatou]

4. Biden... Edwards...

Kucinich fell a few points.

[WheelWalker]

5. To lose confidence in one's candidate leads to great suffering when

one is attached to a particular outcome as we are prone to be at these times in our nation. If you must let go, do so quickly, and try to have compassion for Dennis in what must have been a torturing decision for him, fearing the loss of his goal. Attachment is the source of all suffering. Move on, with kindness, as soon as you are able.

[RiverStone]

21. And getting less attached by the hour...

Oh, I'll let go quickly - within the day (we'll see). And I could move on with both kindness and compassion for what Dennis has done. Nothing will change that.

I simply can't wrap my mind around the hypocrisy of this vote and how it runs counter intuitive to the very core of our constitution.

Thanks for the thoughtful words Village. :hi:

[Cha]

113. That's a nice way

to look at it..I know it is helpful not to get too "attached". Thanks for the reminder.

[Truth2Tell]

6. I don't like the vote either

but who else ya gonna support? Corporate candidate A or B? Gravel? :shrug:

[liberalmuse]

7. There's a war going on, and this is what these jokers come up with???

And if Kucinich or any other Dem candidate were to miss one of these STUPID, bullshit, token votes, you won't hear me complain. Which fucker brought this atrocity on the floor?

[Danger Mouse]

8. Kucinich has lost a lot of support from me lately. I'm feeling disillusioned.

The Ron Paul thing really stuck in my craw.

[Le Taz Hot]

97. Yeah, I've been struggling about that one too.

Now this? :cringe:

[burrowowl]

9. Isn't this more important!?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2446278

[Whisp]

10. you gotta be kidding....

THIS is what is most important to you aside from out of Iraq, univerisal health care, impeaching war criminals, torture, and all those heinous things?

scathing words! : "recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith."
burn him!
maybe he recognizes the importance of all faiths, just so happens that Christmas one is coming up. but no, dismiss him NOW before those other faith holidays.

good grief. this is sounding orchestrated to me. All the Christian bashing, everyone's ruffled all up over it anew lately, and now this, coincidentally.

so don't put up a god damned Christmas tree.....

[NMMNG]

12. It's obviously more important to our elected officials

And that's very, very sad.

[RiverStone]

17. it's not Christian bashing at all...

And you missed the point entirely.

I will not tolerate hypocrisy, even from Dennis.

Like I said, I'm waiting a day before finalizing my decision.

[Whisp]

32. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

I certainly can see how this can be an issue for you and respect that. sorry if I got all flack jacket on you.
I'm not too fond of that C thing either, but I just got fogged all over thinking of all the important issues ignored, all at once and thought that ditching Dennis over this one was a bit lean. But I'm not you and shouldn't judge hierachy of needs.

[RiverStone]

42. we're cool

Appreciate it Whisp.

In no way am I discounting the noble and gutsy work DK has done to end Shrub's immoral and reckless war - his good work there is just as important. That does not change! Discounting this one vote in no way discounts his others.

It's just for me personally, NOT keeping religion out of MY GOVERNMENT (or inviting one in with the exclusion of others) is a deal breaker. We all have different hot points - this is one of mine. Thanks for respecting that...


peace~:)

[awoke_in_2003]

60. "I will not tolerate hypocrisy, even from Dennis"

Good for you. Because that is what the majority of americans have accepted from their representatives (and candidates). That is why politics today is so messed up- we the people allowed it to happen.

[silverojo]

33. Or better yet

Support a candidate who stands a chance in hell of winning. I'm not being sarcastic, but totally serious.

[Chulanowa]

37. Read the resolution. Matter of fact, here's the text!

RESOLUTION

Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.

Whereas Christmas, a holiday of great significance to Americans and many other cultures and nationalities, is celebrated annually by Christians throughout the United States and the world;

Whereas there are approximately 225,000,000 Christians in the United States, making Christianity the religion of over three-fourths of the American population;

Whereas there are approximately 2,000,000,000 Christians throughout the world, making Christianity the largest religion in the world and the religion of about one-third of the world population;

Whereas Christians identify themselves as those who believe in the salvation from sin offered to them through the sacrifice of their savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and who, out of gratitude for the gift of salvation, commit themselves to living their lives in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Bible;

Whereas Christians and Christianity have contributed greatly to the development of western civilization;

Whereas the United States, being founded as a constitutional republic in the traditions of western civilization, finds much in its history that points observers back to its roots in Christianity;

Whereas on December 25 of each calendar year, American Christians observe Christmas, the holiday celebrating the birth of their savior, Jesus Christ;

Whereas for Christians, Christmas is celebrated as a recognition of God's redemption, mercy, and Grace; and

Whereas many Christians and non-Christians throughout the United States and the rest of the world, celebrate Christmas as a time to serve others: Now, therefore be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world;

(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;

(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;

(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;

(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and

(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world.

Now very carefully. Turn to the page of Dennis' Pocket Constitution that has the 1st amendment.

Dennis Kucinich, and other voting yes on this, are breaking constitutional law, and blatantly so. I would consider that to be ratehr fucking important myself.

[Whisp]

44. yes, I would like to see a Muslim version of this as well.

and of all other religions or nons.

I am now a bit surprised by this, upon further thought, that Dennis would go along and for what reasons. will be watching for that.

[Common Sense Party]

66. You would? Okay, here's the Muslim version:

HR 635, passed in October 2007

Whereas Ramadan is the holy month of fasting and spiritual renewal for Muslims worldwide, and is the 9th month of the Muslim calendar year; and

Whereas the observance of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan commenced at dusk on September 13, 2007, and continues for one lunar month: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) recognizes the Islamic faith as one of the great religions of the world;

(2) expresses friendship and support for Muslims in the United States and worldwide;

(3) acknowledges the onset of Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting and spiritual renewal, and conveys its respect to Muslims in the United States and throughout the world on this occasion;

(4) rejects hatred, bigotry, and violence directed against Muslims, both in the United States and worldwide; and

(5) commends Muslims in the United States and across the globe who have privately and publicly rejected interpretations and movements of Islam that justify and encourage hatred, violence, and terror.

[Whisp]

105. thank you.

I deserve my red face and apologize for jumping the gun like I see so many do here in protection of their favorites, without listening a bit more before I shoot off. ;(

[Common Sense Party]

107. It's the curse of the internets: Post first, think later.

We all do it at times.

[Cha]

114. Unreal...Thanks

for this whole thing..Chulanowa!

[earth mom]

116. Folks this kind of shit is ominous! What happened to SEPARATION of Church & State?

:wtf:


:argh:


I am so disgusted there are NO words!!!

[mtnester]

86. For me, combined with the RECORDING of his mouth actually uttering

that he would consider Ron Paul as a running mate...RON PAUL, a nutcase bigot who is unashamed of his bigotry? YHGTBK!

I was a supporter...I am no longer. The Ron Paul thing started it, this sealed the deal...he did not NEED to do this dammit!

[Bluebear]

101. Yes, "All the Christian bashing".

:eyes:

[Pastiche423]

11. I feel the same as you do

When I was a young agnostic teen, I lived in a Presbyterian orphange. Religion made no sense to me then and makes no sense to me now.

What sticks in my craw the most about Dennis' vote, is that he is running on saving our Constitution.

Separation of church and state is in our Constitution!

[RiverStone]

23. Ah, you too see the hypocrisy in the vote

Thanks for the understanding - it's greatly appreciated. :)

[Pastiche423]

28. You are most welcome

It feels good to know that someone understands how I feel.

[awoke_in_2003]

61. You are not alone

although I am not agnostic, but athiest, I respect your doubt, and your right to have it. I also respect the rights of the religious to hold their beliefs (as long as they are not being crammed down our throats, like this house resolution is doing). "Whatever gets you through the night" John Lennon

[Pastiche423]

76. Uh...

I'm not exactly in doubt. I say I am agnostic because usually that shuts people up that want me to be saved, or some other rot like that.

After living in the beautiful and mostly secular city of San Franciso for twenty years, I moved to the south. BIG mistake. Having been there less than one week, I was approached by a woman that wanted to "lay hands" on me. (I'm in a wheelchair.)

I laughed, thinking it was a joke. She was not joking. When many, many thank you, but no thanks and backing away from her, did not work, I screamed at her, "Don't touch me!".

Her reply? I was in my w/c because I did not believe in, nor respect her god.

Thankfully I never saw her again and I am back on the left coast.

[awoke_in_2003]

121. I understand

I spent most of my years up north, but moved to Texas 15 years ago. I cannot believe how pervasive religion is here, gets worse every year. Hell, to most people I know, I am still "in the closet" with my atheism. If more people knew, I would be hearing about god every time I turn around.

[Whisp]

13. why wait, do it now. You weren't a real supporter anyway.

forget the drama.

[RiverStone]

25. wrong bait...n/t

[Whisp]

35. see my post 32, please. nt

[Hoof Hearted]

14. Cling to you PURITY. It's all you have.

No really.

[RiverStone]

51. You have no clue...

Yes really.

[Hoof Hearted]

75. I'm pretty sure I've nailed it.

yes, really.

[eridani]

15. Lots of congresscritters give automatic "yes" votes to strictly symbolic legislation like this

I still say that health care, ending the war, and fair trade are vastly more important.

[nemo137]

93. My God, real issues?

You're priorities, friend, are messed up. If we don't make mountains out of symbolic molehills, nothing will ever happen in this country!

[warren pease]

102. Here's some of "the peoples' business" the House conducted yesterday...

We're always being told that the house has too much important business affecting the very foundations of the republic to have time to even consider impeachment. As an example of all this heavy lifting, here's a partial list, directly from the House clerk's official web site, of the vital business conducted on behalf of the people of the United States yesterday.

Note the drama and controversy, and the courage our intrepid Congress displays in these critical floor votes (all emphasis mine):

H. Res. 853:
honoring those who have volunteered to assist in the cleanup of the November 7, 2007, oil spill in San Francisco Bay

3:44 P.M. -
Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

On motion to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution Agreed to by voice vote.

3:37 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H. Res. 853.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

Mrs. Tauscher moved to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution.

H. Res. 661:
honoring the accomplishments of Barrington Antonio Irving, the youngest pilot and first person of African descent ever to fly solo around the world (now that's controversial, being a black man and all)

3:36 P.M. -
Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

On motion to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution, as amended Agreed to by voice vote.

3:25 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H. Res. 661.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

Mr. Oberstar moved to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution, as amended.


H. Con. Res. 261:
commemorating the centennial anniversary of the sailing of the Navy's "Great White Fleet," launched by President Theodore Roosevelt on December 16, 1907, from Hampton Roads, Virginia, and returning there on February 22, 1909 (And speaking of controversial, this was one of the most blatantly racist demonstrations of US imperialism in history. Naturally, the house approved the resolution, but not without the customary 40 minutes of debate.)

2:40 P.M. -
Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

On motion to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution Agreed to by voice vote.

2:36 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H. Con. Res. 261.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

S. 597:
to extend the special postage stamp for breast cancer research for 2 years

2:25 P.M. -
The title of the measure was amended. Agreed to without objection.

Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill, as amended Agreed to by voice vote.

2:20 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on S. 597.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

2:19 P.M. -
Mr. Davis (IL) moved to suspend the rules and pass the bill, as amended.

H. Res. 695:
expressing the support for designation of a "National Fire Fighter Appreciation Day" to honor and celebrate the fire fighters of the United States

2:18 P.M. -
The title of the measure was amended. Agreed to without objection.

Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

On motion to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution, as amended Agreed to by voice vote.

2:10 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H. Res. 695.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

2:09 P.M. -
Mr. Davis (IL) moved to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution, as amended.

H. Con. Res. 215:
supporting the designation of a week as "National Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation and Automated External Defibrillator Awareness Week"

Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

On motion to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution, as amended Agreed to by voice vote.

2:05 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H. Con. Res. 215.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

H.R. 4009:
to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 567 West Nepessing Street in Lapeer, Michigan, as the "Turrill Post Office Building"

2:04 P.M. -
Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection. (no 40 minutes of debate?)

H. Con. Res. 215:
supporting the designation of a week as "National Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation and Automated External Defibrillator Awareness Week"

Mr. Davis (IL) moved to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution, as amended.

H.R. 4009:
to designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 567 West Nepessing Street in Lapeer, Michigan, as the "Turrill Post Office Building"

On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill Agreed to by voice vote.

1:57 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H.R. 4009.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

Mr. Clay moved to suspend the rules and pass the bill. (Hear hear! Fine job!)

H. Res. 785:
recognizing the 100th Anniversary of Robstown, Texas

Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

1:56 P.M. -
On motion to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution Agreed to by voice vote.

1:49 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H. Res. 785.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

H. Con. Res. 264:
honoring the University of Hawaii for its 100 years of commitment to public higher education

1:48 P.M. -
Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

H. Con. Res. 264:
honoring the University of Hawaii for its 100 years of commitment to public higher education

On motion to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution Agreed to by voice vote.

1:33 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H. Con. Res. 264.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

1:32 P.M. -
Ms. Hirono moved to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution.

H. Res. 768:
honoring the life of Thomas "Tommy" Makem (I can get behind this one)

Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

On motion to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution Agreed to by voice vote.

1:26 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H. Res. 768.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

1:25 P.M. -
Ms. Shea-Porter moved to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution.


H. Res. 847:
recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith

1:13 P.M. -
At the conclusion of debate, the Yeas and Nays were demanded and ordered. Pursuant to the provisions of clause 8, rule XX, the Chair announced that further proceedings on the motion would be postponed.

1:04 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H. Res. 847.

Considered under suspension of the rules.

1:03 P.M. -
Mr. Meeks (NY) moved to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution, as amended.

H. Res. 708:
honoring the life and accomplishments of Luciano Pavarotti and recognizing the significant and positive impact of his astounding musical talent, his achievement in raising the profile of opera with audiences around the world, and his commitment to charitable causes (I can support this one without reservation)

Motion to reconsider laid on the table Agreed to without objection.

On motion to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution Agreed to by voice vote.

12:52 P.M. -
DEBATE - The House proceeded with forty minutes of debate on H. Res. 708. (debate on this one??)

Considered under suspension of the rules.

Mr. Meeks (NY) moved to suspend the rules and agree to the resolution.

[Cha]

117. Thanks, warren..that

was boring!

[warren pease]

118. Yeah, isn't it though...I damn near nodded out cutting and pasting all that nonsense...

But I've heard them claiming for almost a year now that they have all this important business to attend to and so there's no time for impeachment hearings. So I thought I'd check to see what they were up to yesterday.

And by christ, I can see their point; it is much more important to celebrate "National Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation and Automated External Defibrillator Awareness Week" than it is to celebrate the removal of Vice President Defibrillator himself.

Sorry to be so boring; I try not to be but I thought this was the best way to call bullshit on this whole "too busy to impeach" scam. I promise to be more interesting next post -- unless I'm not.


wp

[Cha]

128. I'm glad you posted it..

I was being facetious and right there with ya!

Congress on the whole is like Organized Crime..right there in our collective face with it. Give themselves raises, state of the art health bennies, keep the pork coming to fatten their coffers and jerk off The People.

You're never boring but congress is because they willfully intend to be.

We need to shake them up.

[kineneb]

119. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz nt.

[warren pease]

122. I know, I know...

It wasn't supposed to be exciting. It is, however, true, and in this case "true" is much worse than "boring."

Now I understand why these frauds spend hours talking to themselves in an empty chamber with only the C-Span camera for company. What normal human would stick around and listen to 40 minutes of debate on whether to "...designate the facility of the United States Postal Service located at 567 West Nepessing Street in Lapeer, Michigan, as the 'Turrill Post Office Building.'"

Now wake up! There are fundies to torment, house and senate democrats to bash, waterboarding to classify... all kinds of great shit. It's another wonderful day in America v2.0


wp

[kineneb]

130. Getting more coffee, first,

then out to change the world... but first we must meet with Hubby's home healthcare nurse... sigh. Let no one say that caring for the chronically ill and dying is easy.

[warren pease]

132. I agree: Coffee first; saving the world can wait...

And without enough caffeine, I wouldn't be awake enough to know if I'd saved the world or not, and too flatlined to care.

Sorry about your home situation. Maybe we can bash the US health care disaster together next time. That always gets my blood boiling, along with the coffee water.


Best,

wp

[flvegan]

16. It was a House vote, put before him.

Should he have voted NAY? Let me know how he votes in regards to the other Holidays.

Oh, wait...they won't come up because our pussy-ass reps won't bring it.

[gateley]

18. This is INFURIATING!

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--
(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world;
(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;
(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;
(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;
(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and
(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world.


Number 5: Rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians ---

BUT bigotry against other religions????


The more I think about this, the more livid I become. The House of Representatives is NO PLACE for this! WHY did they feel this was necessary?

[iburl]

38. Congreess does this kind of butt-kissing stuff all the time.

"BUT bigotry against other religions????"

The bill (sadly) doesn't address that issue. Dennis should vote for or against the bills that come up for a vote. This one is full of technically correct statements. He sort of had to, Dennis IS running for president. This vote does/changes nothing. There are much worse examples of religious bigotry and the erosion of the wall separation of church and state.

[iburl]

19. If you read the bill...

...there is really nothing that objectionable in it. They write them so as to get the most possible votes so they can go home and say they "voted for Christmas". I promise you that if Dennis were speaker we wouldn't be wasting our time on this kind of crap. Instead of Dennis, Nancy should be the one introducing impeachment, not allowing these kinds of cheap waste-of-time stunts to get to a vote, that's the real shame.


RESOLUTION

Whereas Christmas, a holiday of great significance to Americans and many other cultures and nationalities, is celebrated annually by Christians throughout the United States and the world;

Whereas there are approximately 225,000,000 Christians in the United States, making Christianity the religion of over three-fourths of the American population;

Whereas there are approximately 2,000,000,000 Christians throughout the world, making Christianity the largest religion in the world and the religion of about one-third of the world population;

Whereas Christians identify themselves as those who believe in the salvation from sin offered to them through the sacrifice of their savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and who, out of gratitude for the gift of salvation, commit themselves to living their lives in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Bible;

Whereas Christians and Christianity have contributed greatly to the development of western civilization;

Whereas the United States, being founded as a constitutional republic in the traditions of western civilization, finds much in its history that points observers back to its roots in Christianity;

Whereas on December 25 of each calendar year, American Christians observe Christmas, the holiday celebrating the birth of their savior, Jesus Christ;

Whereas for Christians, Christmas is celebrated as a recognition of God's redemption, mercy, and Grace; and

Whereas many Christians and non-Christians throughout the United States and the rest of the world, celebrate Christmas as a time to serve others: Now, therefore be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world;

(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;

(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;

(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;

(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and

(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world.

[southerncrone]

20. Doesn't want to go on record as "voting against Christmas"

That's the only reason I can come up with for why anyone would vote YEA on this. Something they can pull out later & "use against" a candidate.

This whole bill is the most preposterous thing EVER!

I grew up in TN under the same type of "religious rule" you describe in GA. We're kindred spirits, harassed by oppression, when we just wanted freedom "from" religion.

[skipos]

22. EVERY candidate is going to disappoint

I am not trying to talk you out of supporting someone else (Kucinich is toward the bottom of my list) but this isn't the first or the last time Kucinich is going to do something that is wrong or stupid (Ron Paul as VP?!?). EVERY candidate does this.

[RiverStone]

29. agreed, and yet each of us may have certain issues...

Which for whatever reasons, resonate deeply and hold great meaning.

For me personally, keeping religion OUT OF MY GOVERNMENT is huge!

This does not in any way discount Dennis's anti-Iraq War stand or wonderful work he has achieved in the area of civil liberties. All that is just as important! Its just for me personally, this vote is a deal-breaker.

I'm still a Dem and plan on voting and working with the Dems - I'm also very dismayed by this vote and the candidate I've supported support of it???

[barbtries]

24. i didnt even realize such an

anti american vote was going on. jeez thats pathetic. i wonder how many congress people felt like staying longer in the shower today, for being such whores to the religious right.
the text of the resolution:

RESOLUTION

Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.

Whereas Christmas, a holiday of great significance to Americans and many other cultures and nationalities, is celebrated annually by Christians throughout the United States and the world;

Whereas there are approximately 225,000,000 Christians in the United States, making Christianity the religion of over three-fourths of the American population;

Whereas there are approximately 2,000,000,000 Christians throughout the world, making Christianity the largest religion in the world and the religion of about one-third of the world population;

Whereas Christians identify themselves as those who believe in the salvation from sin offered to them through the sacrifice of their savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and who, out of gratitude for the gift of salvation, commit themselves to living their lives in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Bible;

Whereas Christians and Christianity have contributed greatly to the development of western civilization;

Whereas the United States, being founded as a constitutional republic in the traditions of western civilization, finds much in its history that points observers back to its roots in Christianity;

Whereas on December 25 of each calendar year, American Christians observe Christmas, the holiday celebrating the birth of their savior, Jesus Christ;

Whereas for Christians, Christmas is celebrated as a recognition of God's redemption, mercy, and Grace; and

Whereas many Christians and non-Christians throughout the United States and the rest of the world, celebrate Christmas as a time to serve others: Now, therefore be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world;

(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;

(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;

(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;

(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and

(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world.
RESOLUTION

Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith.

Whereas Christmas, a holiday of great significance to Americans and many other cultures and nationalities, is celebrated annually by Christians throughout the United States and the world;

Whereas there are approximately 225,000,000 Christians in the United States, making Christianity the religion of over three-fourths of the American population;

Whereas there are approximately 2,000,000,000 Christians throughout the world, making Christianity the largest religion in the world and the religion of about one-third of the world population;

Whereas Christians identify themselves as those who believe in the salvation from sin offered to them through the sacrifice of their savior, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and who, out of gratitude for the gift of salvation, commit themselves to living their lives in accordance with the teachings of the Holy Bible;

Whereas Christians and Christianity have contributed greatly to the development of western civilization;

Whereas the United States, being founded as a constitutional republic in the traditions of western civilization, finds much in its history that points observers back to its roots in Christianity;

Whereas on December 25 of each calendar year, American Christians observe Christmas, the holiday celebrating the birth of their savior, Jesus Christ;

Whereas for Christians, Christmas is celebrated as a recognition of God's redemption, mercy, and Grace; and

Whereas many Christians and non-Christians throughout the United States and the rest of the world, celebrate Christmas as a time to serve others: Now, therefore be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) recognizes the Christian faith as one of the great religions of the world;

(2) expresses continued support for Christians in the United States and worldwide;

(3) acknowledges the international religious and historical importance of Christmas and the Christian faith;

(4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;

(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and

(6) expresses its deepest respect to American Christians and Christians throughout the world.

isn't that unconstitutional?

ohgawd, where'd my country go?!

[hfojvt]

41. If you think that's unconstitutional, then your country must be dreamland

And, in any case, it is perfectly constitutional for Congress to pass unconstitutional laws. It happened with the income tax, that's why we needed an amendment. Congress passes it, the President signs it, or has a veto over-ridden, and SCOTUS strikes it down. The Congresspeople who voted for it do not get arrested. They do not go directly to jail. They still collect their $200.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

26. I'm an atheist and not a Kucinich supporter but I can't fault him for his vote

His alternative was voting AGAINST Christmas and Christianity. Yeah, that's not the reality of what it would be but that's how it would be interpreted. One option you may consider is to ask him to sponsor a bill officially recognizing Muslims, Jews, or even atheists and agnostics. Let Congress go on record saying yea or nay to the existence of those groups. Try Pete Stark, the only admitted non-believer in Congress.

Matter of fact, I think I will do just that in the morning.

[flvegan]

30. Good post.

Well stated.

[RiverStone]

If he were sponsor another bill recognizing other (many) faiths...

Like I said in the original OP - I'm reserving judgment (for a short time) to see if exactly that is in the works or being considered.

Without another bill, today's vote as a stand alone - is nothing more then religious bigotry, IMO.

[Journeyman]

58. Here. . .

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/12/11/king-christmas/

<snip>

The Christmas resolution Congressman King has offered is only being offered because there have been two previous resolutions earlier this year in October, one for the Muslim holiday of Ramadan and one for the Hindu holiday of Diwali.

It was actually entirely unprecedented to even consider them for a vote. Religions have not been singled out and honored previously in Congress. But now that this precedent has been set, Congressman King thought it was important to honor Christmas. This is just simply the exact same language used as the Ramadan resolution on Oct 2.

<snip>

[slipslidingaway]

67. Thanks for that link! n/t

[RiverStone]

74. not at all the same thing...

And far from the "exact same language".

Religions being singled out was unprecedented in our congressional history for a reason; now look at the slippery slope.

Please see post here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2453268&mesg_id=2453697


peace~:)

[Journeyman]

82. Quite right -- in my haste, I quoted an idiot's spokesman. . .

however, your original question was whether Kucinich had ever "sponsored" (which I read as voted, since he didn't sponsor the Christian resolution) a resolution recognizing other faiths. This he did, as explained in the thinkprogress link I posted.

And yes, as you say -- a slippery slope, and one I'm not pleased with in the least. But there is more afoot than merely Christian theocracy.

[fujiyama]

80. This guy sounds like a real piece of work

I wouldn't find an issue with this if it were just recognizing the significance of Christmas (though seriously is such a bill really needed?), but honoring religions is a bit of a different matter, especially when the bill more or less declares that Jesus is the son of God.

This is non binding, so I'm not really sure of the relevance when considering the constitutionality of it, but either way this was a typical example of congresspeople of both parties just wasting time before going on vacation. I'm so tired of these meaningless bills honoring one thing or the other. It's a bunch of feel-good bullshit.

[MindPilot]

133. Except that the Ramadan resolution probably didn't conflate

the influence Islam had on the founding of the United States.

[Common Sense Party]

69. Dennis also voted for the Ramadan bill.

Rep. Dennis Kucinich Aye

http://www.opencongress.org/roll_call/show/1953

It's the exact same language this Christmas one was patterned after.

[goodgd_yall]

134. Maybe you should make this its own OP

I think this would help settle some of the "outrage" over DK's vote.

[DFW]

88. I'm waiting to see if they give equal time:

"rejects bigotry and persecution directed by Christians, both in the United States and worldwide;"

I'm not holding my breath, though............

[RiverStone]

126. I fault the Dem leadership and the flock of sheep...

In the "majority" - who even let this vote hit the House floor for a vote at all.

I do not see the few who voted in opposition as voting against Christmas - I saw them as voting against endorsing ANY religion by a government that used to hold dear the importance of keeping politics and religion separate.

Each vote has meaning - Dennis et. al. made his choice.

[frazzled]

27. Doesn't surprise me: he was fervently anti-abortion till he became a candidate, too

DK had one of the worst records of anyone in the House for years and years. In case you've forgotten:

During his eight years in the House, Kucinich voted with abortion-rights advocates barely 10 percent of the time. Twice in the past three years, the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League, now known as NARAL Pro-Choice America, gave him a rating of "zero."

<...>

Can liberals embrace a candidate who as recently as 2001 voted to support Bush's decision to withhold international family-planning money from organizations that perform, or even discuss, abortions? Will the Democratic Party, let alone the Bay Area, open its arms and wallets to a presidential candidate who, during 1999 and 2000, sided with the National Right to Life Committee on 19 of 20 votes?

Twenty years ago, it was not terribly unusual to be an anti-abortion Democrat. Today, the list of well-known Democrats who oppose legalized abortions is almost nonexistent. Fewer than three dozen Democrats in the House regularly vote to restrict abortions -- and not one of them is nationally prominent.

Former Democratic Whip David Bonior of Michigan was anti-abortion, as was former Pennsylvania Gov. Bob Casey, and each paid a political price within the party.

<...>

Kucinich, who is Catholic and represents a working class and heavily Catholic section of Cleveland, voted repeatedly to bar poor women from using Medicaid to pay for abortions, to limit federal dollars in paying for overseas abortions and to ban a procedure labelled by opponents as "partial-birth abortions."

"He was solid," said Douglas Johnson, legislative director at the National Right to Life Committee, which consistently gave Kucinich ratings above 90 percent

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0223-05.htm

[flvegan]

31. Yeah, the evolution of a candidate sucks.

Ask Hillary, former Republican.

Oops...

[frazzled]

40. It was no evolution ... it was an election eve conversion

Certainly you recall the controversy in 2003 when he announced he would now be "pro-choice"--he was voting anti-choice only moments before.

You can't say Clinton was a Republican until the moment she ran for office ... she's been one for decades and decades. Sorry, Kucinich's abortion record was a hotly debated topic in the last election cycle, especially among women who remembered, and who swore they'd never vote for him.

[flvegan]

43. Yeah, again...so the evolution of a candidate sucks.

Like I said...

You want to debate Clinton's Republican-esque Iraq war vote record now?

[frazzled]

49. This has nothing to do with Clinton; it's about DK's odd choices

Why would you keep bringing up HIllary Clinton when the issue is why Kucinich just voted for a resolution whose very constitutionality is questionable, and who voted nearly unanimously with the right-to-lifers up until the minute he ran for the presidency?

Did you not read the article (from 2003): in 2 of the 3 years previous to his running, he received 0 ratings from NARAL. Now tell me what is "evolutionary" in announcing at the same time as your candidacy that you will now reverse your position?

Oh, why am I even bothering? Love is blind, I guess, for the true believers.

[Swamp Rat]

34. Not me.... GEAUX DENNIS!!!

:kick:



:kick:

[Joe Fields]

36. I can much more easily forgive Dennis for this vote, than I can

Hillary and Edwards for their IWR votes and votes on the Patriot Act. Not to mention their silence on impeachment. Let's not forget Obama's refusal to acknowledge a need for impeaching Bush or Cheney.

[pegleg]

39. If the Dems begin to look like a party of Christian bashers -

they're toast

[ShaneGR]

47. Dont worry....

This site isnt really representative of the Democratic party, at least beyond the name.

[Common Sense Party]

64. Shhh!!! That's like telling kids Santa Claus isn't real!

Let them enjoy the illusion.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

104. wo0t

:applause:

[RiverStone]

48. Looks aside, how can this crazy vote even be brought...

to the floor, when impeachment of Shrub and Shooter does not even make it to the floor for ANY debate?

Sorry pegleg, I disagree. This vote may not bash Christians, but in excluding all other faiths of importance - it suggests (for this voter anyway) both an arrogance and exclusivity that reminds me of bigotry.

I don't think this vote makes anybody look good - pass the toast!

[flyarm]

45. and to think this vote was taken during Hannukah..what a scam..and

i do wish a Happy Hannukah to all our Jewish friends.

fly

[ShaneGR]

46. Omg, Dennis supported the idea that Christmas has to do with the Christian faith?

I simply can't believe that "Christ"mas has any thing to do with the "Christ"ian faith. I mean, how could that possibly be. And who the hell cares, and what does it have to do with our everyday lives? NOTHING, that's what, NOTHING.

Note, I don't even support DK for whatever, but OPs like this make me want to laugh.

[Common Sense Party]

50. Me thinks you doth protest too much.

You quote the Dalai Lama, a religious leader.

Did you get pissed off when Congress awarded the Dalai Lama the Congressional Gold Medal? After all, Senator Feinstein said: "The Dalai Lama is a worthy recipient of the Congressional Gold Medal. He is <b>one of the world’s greatest religious leaders</b>..."



Congress just passed a bill recognizing the start of Ramadan . This bill is probably a response to that one:

Whereas Ramadan is the holy month of fasting and spiritual renewal for Muslims worldwide, and is the 9th month of the Muslim calendar year; and

Whereas the observance of the Islamic holy month of Ramadan commenced at dusk on September 13, 2007, and continues for one lunar month: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That the House of Representatives--

(1) recognizes the Islamic faith as one of the great religions of the world;

(2) expresses friendship and support for Muslims in the United States and worldwide;

(3) acknowledges the onset of Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting and spiritual renewal, and conveys its respect to Muslims in the United States and throughout the world on this occasion;

(4) rejects hatred, bigotry, and violence directed against Muslims, both in the United States and worldwide; and

(5) commends Muslims in the United States and across the globe who have privately and publicly rejected interpretations and movements of Islam that justify and encourage hatred, violence, and terror.

[Solon]

52. Both bills are a bunch of Anti-American bullshit, so called feel good shit...

that basically states the United States Government is to play favorites with certain religions over others.

[Common Sense Party]

Does the U.S. Gov't play favorites with Islam? Could've fooled me.

It's meaningless. It's vapid. It's words. Stuff like this happens ALL THE TIME in Congress.

Is it a waste of time and government funds? Yes. It's nonsense.

Is it a reason to abandon a candidate? Not in my opinion.

[Solon]

57. I would agree with you, my problem is that it runs up against my sense of equality. n/t

[frazzled]

53. A few important differences in those pieces of legislation

There are two provisions that are especially troublesome:

4) acknowledges and supports the role played by Christians and Christianity in the founding of the United States and in the formation of the western civilization;

(5) rejects bigotry and persecution directed against Christians, both in the United States and worldwide; and

Provision (4) simply isn't historically factual--and we know that many of the founders, deists, pantheists, and otherwise, would object to that language.

Provision (5) suggests that somehow Christians face persecution in the US. Show me the money.

Also, the Ramadan resolution makes no mention of Allah of Mohammad, yet the Christmas one makes repeated reference to "our savior Jesus Christ." Well, for those of us not brought up Christian, and who do not believe in the divinity of Jesus, this is pretty scary stuff.

You don't need to make resolutions to recogonize the "majority" position. It's like having a resolution recognizing the contributions of white Euroepan males.

[Common Sense Party]

56. 4 isn't historically factual? Christians didn't participate in the founding

of this country? Christians have had no effect on Western Civ?

The resolution doesn't say that Christians EXCLUSIVELY are responsible.

[frazzled]

70. Come on, you know the code language here

The religious right has been claiming for years that this nation was founded on Christianity. No, this country was founded on the principles of liberty, including religious liberty. Neither is it true that most of the Founding Fathers were themselves Christian: many were Deists, who believed in a "creator," but definitely not in the divinity of Jesus. Theories based on the spirituality of the natural world were very current then.

And if you read what I wrote, you'd see that I do not deny that Christianity made contributions to western civilization. But this is such a given in the way history is presented to us that to make a Congressional resolution reiterating this fact has vast political import: it is not a fact that needs to be reified.

Do you think it would be appropriate, to counterbalance a resolution that recognized the contributions of African-Americans to American history, to introduce one that stressed how much white guys have contributed? It's ridiculous. Just as resolutions that praise the union of a man and a woman are intended to denigrate the validity of unions of same sex. Don't play dumb here, just because your candidate voted for this crap.

Kucinich should be ashamed of voting in favor of this. He has balked at voting for far less controversial things.

[Common Sense Party]

73. First off, Dennis isn't my candidate. I don't have one yet.

Secondly, you said 4 isn't even historically accurate. I was asking for clarification. I think it's pretty accurate, while not being complete and all-inclusive.

[RiverStone]

72. yes - one refers to "them"

the other refers to "us" --- like you said, "our savior"

It's wrong to tie Christianity to the whole diverse country that's America and I assure you, the coming of the black robes was nothing but a hostile take over to the native culture(s) that were thriving back then. Yet some want to call it the founding of our country.

[Beelzebud]

54. If thats all it takes to lose your support, he didn't need you to begin with.

[Common Sense Party]

55. While his poll numbers would suggest otherwise...

I would agree with you.

Dennis isn't going to lose sleep over one person who gets upset over one vote on a completely meaningless resolution.

[RiverStone]

62. I have no clue how Dennis is sleeping tonight, but I believe the resolution is far...

from meaningless.

Separation of church and state is a political and legal idea usually identified with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof… The phrase building a wall of separation between church and state was written by Thomas Jefferson in a January 1, 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptist Association.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state


To each his (or her) own eh?

[Common Sense Party]

65. I don't think this one resolution does anything toward

establishing a state religion, any more than the resolution about Ramadan did.

Congress passes meaningless feel-good resolutions all the time to tickle the fancy of certain constituents. It isn't changing any laws.

But if that's your interpretation, by all means, dump Dennis.

Who will you support now? Which candidate is completely "areligious"?

[RiverStone]

68. I will support the Democratic nominee from our party

That much for sure.

Give me some time on the rest.

peace~:)

[Common Sense Party]

71. You gotta do what you gotta do.

My only advice (worth what you pay for it):

Don't make any decision based solely on emotion--especially not your initial reaction.

Sleep on it. Think it over some more. Look at the facts. Then, do what you gotta do.

To thine own self be true.





--Peace, love and understanding. (What's so funny 'bout that?)

[pegleg]

85. So just how does this resolution violate the 1st Amendment?

I don't believe it does. If that were the case, then recognizing the Dalai Lama does also.Having said this, I do think it would be wise to officially recognize the contributions of all creeds and secular philosophies which have contributed to the nation.

[RiverStone]

59. Oh, it takes a hell of a lot to lose my support

IMO, this qualifies.

We can disagree on it's relative importance. For this voter, it's very important.

And your wrong, he needs every vote he can get.



on edit: Like I said, I'm waiting a bit to see if he offers an explanation or an alternative.

[sakabatou]

63. And back to my #1 he goes

after doing a check.

Goooo DK!

[spoony]

127. Yeah I wish my vote for him would matter

alas I'm in Michigan! My clicks on DU straw polls have more impact than my primary vote, lol.

[timtom]

77. I don't know about you, but

to me, the priorities are:

Get out of Iraq NOW!!

Stay the hell away from Iran!!

Repeal the Patriot Act NOW!!!

Vote down HR 1955 NOW!!!

Vote down S 1959 NOW!!!

Get some health care that makes sense (like universal, singe payer) NOW!!

Render all of monkeyboy's executive orders as null and void NOW!!!

Impeach Cheney/Bush NOW!!!

Oh, and buy ornaments for the Christmas tree TOMORROW!!

[RiverStone]

81. This is not about changing our priorities

It is about one voter changing his candidate (possibly).

I can still work on the issues, and BTW I very much share in your priorities nathan. There are plenty of Dems out there (and in here) who share the same vision and passion for change (per your post).

Back to DK, I think its fair for a candidate to know that there are certain non-negotiable points of concern which affect a voters support of said candidate. For this one voter, this particular vote is a deal breaker. I feel way, way to strongly about keeping religion --- ANY religion out of my government.

Please don't assume that dropping DK for this one BIG issue (for me) takes away from the importance of anything else. It does not!
And I remain steadfast in my commitment to do all I can as one voter to end Shrub's illegal and immoral war of aggression!!!

[orleans]

78. who the fuck thought bringing a vote over this crap to the floor was a good idea? n/t

[Common Sense Party]

79. Repuke Steve King from Iowa sponsored it...

...along with 58 co-sponsors (57 of whom have an "R" behind their name):

Rep. Todd Akin
Rep. Michele Bachmann
Rep. Richard Baker
Rep. James Barrett
Rep. Rob Bishop
Rep. John Boozman
Rep. Kevin Brady
Rep. Paul Broun
Rep. Henry Brown
Rep. Virginia Brown-Waite
Rep. Dan Burton
Rep. John Carter
Rep. Michael Conaway
Rep. David Davis
Rep. Geoff Davis
Rep. John Doolittle
Rep. Thelma Drake
Rep. Tom Feeney
Rep. Jeffrey Fortenberry
Rep. Virginia Foxx
Rep. Trent Franks
Rep. John Gingrey
Rep. Louis Gohmert
Rep. Robin Hayes
Rep. Jeb Hensarling
Rep. Walter Herger
Rep. Darrell Issa
Rep. Samuel Johnson
Rep. Walter Jones
Rep. Jim Jordan
Rep. Jack Kingston
Rep. John Kline
Rep. John Kuhl
Rep. Ray LaHood
Rep. Doug Lamborn
Rep. Nicholas Lampson
Rep. Daniel Lungren
Rep. Michael McCaul
Rep. Patrick Mchenry
Rep. Mike McIntyre ***
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers
Rep. Jeff Miller
Rep. Marilyn Musgrave
Rep. Sue Myrick
Rep. Randy Neugebauer
Rep. Joseph Pitts
Rep. Todd Platts
Rep. Ted Poe
Rep. Bill Sali
Rep. John Shadegg
Rep. Lamar Smith
Rep. Clifford Stearns
Rep. Lee Terry
Rep. Todd Tiahrt
Rep. Timothy Walberg
Rep. David Weldon
Rep. Addison Wilson
Rep. Donald Young

[orleans]

83. right. but it's the dems who get to decide what crap is put up for a vote on the floor

if they wouldn't allow this shit it wouldn't be voted on

[whirlygigspin]

84. this whole issue smells like a trap

if they vote against it, repukes will say they're anti christian

I say ignore the whole thing, it's pointless anyway

[Snarkturian Clone]

92. Why is congress wasting it's time on this stupid shit? NT

[Common Sense Party]

109. It's no trap. All they have to do is what the Repukes did on the

Ramadan resolution.

Just vote "present."

[orleans]

140. yes, but the dems should have said we're not wasting floor time

on bills such as this

[Apollo11]

87. People celebrated midwinter way before Christianity was invented.

If you can count the hours of daylight and the hours of darkness, you will know that in the northern hemisphere the days stop getting shorter on December 22nd, and then they start getting longer again!

The fact that we have survived the longest night of the year is something to celebrate! B-)

It is an ancient festival that was basically hijacked by the Christian church.

Unless someone can tell me what does the so-called "Christmas Tree" have to do with Jesus?

[joshcryer]

89. You guys need help. Your language is bordering on fanaticism. Read cali's comments here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2453994

Seriously, you guys need help. Badly. I mean epicly so.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

90. Good link. This is just a "feel-good" bill

Agreed, this is a non-issue.

He signed on to a bill "recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith".

I would expect him to sign on to other feel-good bills as well:

recognizing the importance of Passover and the Jewish faith
recognizing the importance of Ramadan and the Muslim faith
recognizing the importance of Mahashivaratri and the Hindu faith
recognizing the importance of Visakah Puja and the Buddhist faith
recognizing the importance of Wednesday (Odin's Day) and the Norse pantheon
recognizing the importance of every day and the atheist non-faith

Well, probably not the last two - athists, gnostics, agnostics, and bloody vikings get no respect
:rofl:

[Bluebear]

103. The point is, where ARE those bills?

[Common Sense Party]

106. The point is, have you LOOKED for those bills?

You're getting yourself worked up into a lather because Dennis DARED to vote for one meaningless resolution that had some nice things to say about Christmas, while ignoring the fact that these things come up all the time. And I already posted upthread that Dennis DID vote for the nearly-identical resolution praising Ramadan.

This is all so silly.

[Bluebear]

139. Please be assured I am not worked up into any kind of lather.

[riona]

91. And, to follow the spirit of our Constitution

this will be followed by several resolutions recognizing those of us who have other spiritual paths - or not???????

[Orsino]

94. Is there a candidate who voted no on this...

...or on any other similar legislation?

As much as I despise the establishment of state religion--even mindless feel-goods like this bill--I can't see how this bit of pandering puts Kucinich second to anyone else.

[SharkSquid]

95. You think any of the others, were they in the house

would vote against it?

[Bright Eyes]

98. To be honest, the bill doesn't upset me *that* much

What I'm really upset about, is the fact that Congress has the time to pass this shit, but not impeach Bush/Cheney.

Because you know, it'll take up time for "important" things, like this.

[warren pease]

99. Does that one vote outweigh all this?

Here's a partial list of Kucinich's key initiatives, and what you're abandoning:

Reinstating Amendments 1, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 of the Bill of Rights
Impeachment of Cheney, then Bush and maybe more to follow, along with criminal charges when/if they leave office
Single-payer, universal-access health care
Drastically improving public education
No more money for "faith-based" programs
Repealing the 1996 Telecom Act
Getting serious about animal rights
Reinforcing the 1st amendment wall separating church and state
Getting out of Iraq
Curbing US imperialism before it causes any more damage
Keeping abortion safe, legal and rare
Federal investment in and tax advantages for research into non-fossil fuels energy sources
Real environmental protection and action to lessen the impact of global climate change
Starving the pentagon and the arms industry it supports
Banning private armies on US soil
Reinstating Habeas Corpus
Repealing the Patriot Acts
Repealing the Military Commissions Act (and reinstating Posse Comitatus)
Ending the drug war
Mandating verifiable paper ballots, counted by humans, with results posted on precinct doors
Creating a Department of Peace to resolve conflicts without war
Restoring the US place as a cooperative nation rather than the world's more hated and feared rogue state

Show me other candidates with this many positives and I'll consider abandoning DK over this idiotic vote on this piece of shit GOP wedge issue bait. I don't think they exist.


wp

[mdmc]

108. One more HRC supporter

Join the winning team!:kick:

[RiverStone]

131. Nope...

Kyle-Lieberman, not admitting IWR was a mistake, DLC.

There are lines I won't cross there either.

And yes, I'm voting Dem regardless come the GE - but this is the primaries after all.

[mdmc]

137. oh

:kick:

[book_worm]

110. I'm always amazed how people on DU will drop somebody like a rock

because they aren't 100% pure in believeing what "you" or "we" believe. I guess it doesn't matter that DK is right 99.9% of the time but if he votes "wrong" or as you see it "wrong" once then he's finished. I hope you find that perfect candidate.

[RiverStone]

123. Candidates need to hear that some lines are worth drawing...

And not crossing.

This vote, IMO, was nothing more then federally sectioned religious bigotry. A huge step in the wrong direction.

I know people here respect taking a stand. I know Dennis would, even in disagreement. This vote remains a deal breaker for me...unless I hear an alternative explanation for his action from Dennis. We all have our non-negotiable hot points. There are many women (and men) who simply would not vote for a candidate (no matter how good they are on other issues) if said candidate did not support a woman's right to reproductive freedom. I'm not seeking purity; but I will not endorse hypocrisy.

Some say this is much ado about nothing --- but for this grown-up kid who experienced first hand the ramifications of state sponsored religion growing up in the south, it is a big deal.

And I have said several times up-thread that discounting this vote does not discount all the other good work he has done. I can still fight those battles with or without supporting DK. I'm still a Dem, will be a Dem, and have managed to vote for a progressive candidate well over 30 voting years.

peace~:)

[Cha]

111. You poor thing..being in the

midst of that..I can only imagine. It disgusts me from afar. I was fortunate, imo, that I didn't grow up with any religion forced on me and have been able to figure things out for myself all these years..and this is with a much liked sister who is Christian but a real one(if you know what I mean..yeah, Peace~)

Anyway, I know I don't do Dogma, Lies, Hypocricy, or murdering in the name of religion.

This HR 847 is pathetic, but I'm sure it's making a lot of hypocrite$ happy.

[leftofthedial]

112. sounds like Christmas and the Christian faith were important to you

why do you hate Amurka?

[The Blue Flower]

115. He could have easily abstained

As he has done many times before on votes where he didn't agree in principle.

[hayu_lol]

124. Written by the founders:

The United States Is Not A Christian Nation

Treaty of Tripoli

1795/1797

[RiverStone]

129. Thanks for the history lesson!

Looked it up. :hi:

Article 11 reads:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Article 11 has been a point of contention regarding the proper interpretation of the doctrine of separation of church and state. Supporters of the separation of church and state contend that this article is significant in that it confirms that the government of the United States was specifically intended to be religiously neutral. Supporters of the "Christian Nation" theory dispute this, arguing that the article in the treaty carries little or no significance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

[goodgd_yall]

125. On the face of it, the bill is merely a recognition of Christmas

and its importance to Christians. It acknowledges Christianity's place in American history. There were no untruths in the bill. I think Kucinich would vote for a bill of that nature on Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, and Hinduism.

I don't fault him for voting "Yea" because I believe I understand Kucinich's intentions. He does not have an agenda to force Christianity on anyone.

I, myself, would probably have not voted for the bill, because I think it plays too much into the hands of Christian fanatics, that is, those who disrespect the notion of secularity in government and those who seem blind to the principle of separation of church and state. I don't know who sponsored the bill, but the source of the bill would have had an impact on my support of it too.

ON EDIT: Upthread a DUer noted that Kucinich DID vote for a bill recognizing Ramadan and Muslims in America. DK is being ecumenical, which is very in-character, if you ask me.

[DRoseDARs]

135. Congress also had bills on 2 minority religions (which prompted this one). How'd he vote on those?

You gonna bitch about those votes/positions too? If you're going to throw away your support of him over THIS, you never supported him in the first place and you're disingenuous to say otherwise. What's next, throwing your support behind Hillary just because she shows a little cleavage in the Senate or wears snazzy pantsuits?

Pathetic. :eyes: :thumbsdown:

[RiverStone]

136. The House has no business voting on or endorsing ANY religion --- period!!!

And as mentioned upthread those other bills had very different text and intent (see post 53.)

Why would you assume my support for DK was disingenuous? Is it because you think HR 847 is no big deal? Who have we appointed on DU to decide what is of great relevance to individuals or not?

[Wetzelbill]

138. well, they are important

even if somebody is not Christian, if not for anything else, they are important for historical and cultural purposes. It doesn't endorse anything, it just says it recognizes the faith for certain accomplishments. And it rejects bigotry and persecution against Christians. I don't see a thing in the bill that I disagree with. Even if I wasn't a Christian. The bill could substitute Islam, or Buddhism and I'd say the same thing. There is just nothing wrong with it at all, other than the fact that some people get jumpy about religion because of how looney the religious right has been over the years.

[Initech]

141. What the fuck? They actually VOTED on that in the senate?

And people wonder why our country is fucked up. This shouldn't have even been brought to the table.

[Warren DeMontague]

143. Kooch is in the House.

I don't know if they voted for it in the Senate, but if Chris Dodd voted for a poorly worded turd like that, I would stop supporting him, too.

[dweller]

142. perhaps you'll change your mind when he votes yea on HR 888

"recognizing the importance of Kindness and the Kindness faith" ?


okay, i made the bill # up, maybe you will get the drift.


methinks you doth protest too much.
dp

[Warren DeMontague]

144. I'm voting for Chris Dodd.

Maybe you should check him out.