Don't Let Anyone Tell You that DU has "always been like this."

[Mike03]

It hasn't always been like this.

Those of you who have been around here for the past four or more years know this.

I've read those posts for the past couple of years, and it is a total crock of shit. DU has always been well managed, well moderated, but the quality of posts has gone right into the shithole, IMHO.

So, I don't even think there's a point in being polite here anymore, or being gentlemanly or taking the high road. The floor in the Intelligence Quotient has been so badly breached that who cares anymore?

[Maddy McCall]

1. I agree with you. That's one reason why I rarely post anymore.

Besides being too busy...I just don't have a desire to sort through all of the noise to find someone who earnestly wants to discuss an issue.

Primaries 2004 got nasty, but it wasn't always this way.

[shraby]

3. I agree. The quality has gone

considerably downward.

[Skidmore]

27. Hi, Maddy! Haven't seen you around in quite a while.

Good to see you.

[Maddy McCall]

30. Hi, Skidmore.

Busy, busy, busy in the real world. Good to see you, too. How are you?

:hi:

[Skidmore]

34. Busy, too, and not interacting on the boards as much

because it gets so nasty anymore. Somedays I log off feeling like my stomach is in knots. I'll be glad when this primary season is over.

[Maddy McCall]

36. Same here.

If I'm going to waste time here, I'd rather enjoy it. :)

[Snotcicles]

41. Remember when EE would drop in and chat? they would eat her alive now. nt

[Lerkfish]

47. "eating alive" seems to the modus operandi anymore

sadly.

[Occulus]

168. You know what, though?

I have a BigMcLargeHuge ignore list... and there's only something like three "Ignored" posts showing up in this thread, desipte the number of responses.

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that there are certain posters- including those who have over 1000 posts, several of whom have been here since 2001- who are and have always been trolls of the highest caliber. These people are here to deliberately make DU not as good a place to be as it used to be. They are and always were infiltrators, and (about two years ago) they all went active, all at once.

I was actually posting the night it started, and watched it all happen. It was like a corpse flower's petals opening in time-lapse. And yes, these posters are often referred to as "the Usual Suspects", and yes, I have most of them on ignore. Some of them have actually been banned as disruptors since I put them on ignore.

My point is, this was a planned effect intended to drive out DU's best. That there are so very few people posting on this thread that are on my ignore list supports that claim. It's not DU- it is a few easily-identified posters, and they are what "ignore" is for.

There are a couple of them I intentionally leave off my ignore list, to use for other prospective DUers when I need an example of why we have the feature in the first place. They often appear on the smoking/taser threads.

[progressivebydesign]

54. I do remember that... she was so sweet here! n/t

[Maddy McCall]

91. Oh yeah.

And also Wes Clark, Jr., if his dad were running this time.

[Ignis]

144. Sad but true.

I'm not trying to wear rose-colored glasses, but there used to be more of a community feel that made EE feel welcome here. Now? Not so much.

[intheflow]

60. Hi Maddy!

Nice to see you're still around occasionally. :hi: How's life in the Magnolia State? I'm back in Colorado now. Even with your thunderstorms this week, I'm missing Mississippi this December. We've had a foot of snow in the last four days!

Hey, I thought of you the other day when I found this graphic:



Reminded me of your smiling frog. :)

[Maddy McCall]

92. Oh, that cat is soooo mine.

Just downloaded him to my computer. Thanks!

Everything is fine. Hot, but fine. Running the AC in December just isn't right. It'll probably be 75 degrees here on Christmas day.

The Magnolia State is all the worse now that you're not here. :hug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

93. I agree, Maddy, there are more trolls and more people whose only purpose

is to be snarky.

:hi:

[Maddy McCall]

102. Hi, Lydia.

:hi:

[joshcryer]

110. Same here. I get an itch from time to time. To maybe interject some sanity, but generally, eh.

[xultar]

154. BRAVO Maddy. I agree 100%

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

4. Thank you--but as long as those who've replied to this post

(and you, Mike03) are around, I'll stick it out and try not to let myself spread the disease--but I've already succombed a couple of times.

Here's to a great site with great administrators and terrific VOLUNTEER moderators... :toast:

[Maddy McCall]

8. *smooch*

You're one of the best.

:hug:

[blondeatlast]

11. Backatcha. nt

[Mike03]

17. It is a great site...

I have nothing but reverence for DU, but it's just not very much fun to come here anymore.

My overriding desire in life is to learn, and I used to learn here.

[Maddy McCall]

18. Many of the ol' DU greats are gone.

That's contributed to the downward spiral, I think.

[Stand and Fight]

104. An overriding desire to learn...

The same reason I used to find so much comfort and solace in DU. Now there is so much teeth-gnashing and rudeness that I stay away from the board.

The discussions used to really get my juices going -- get me thinking. Now... Well, the flame is gone. Hopefully not forever.

[Mike03]

43. Yes, this is a great site, and the admins and mods are tremendous

I don't know how they do what they do.

They are like the captains of a ship; they manage to keep things from going over the edge.

[senseandsensibility]

5. Someone called me a LIAR in all caps

a couple of days ago because I said that I had ONE question, and they claimed that I actually asked two questions.:shrug: I told him to alert on me, then. DU is not fun anymore, and that's why I rarely post. I used to enjoy the camaraderie. The "us against them" atmosphere was very bracing for the battles we need to fight in real life. Now who wants to waste their energy fighting other Dems on DU? Doesn't sound very productive.

[rug]

86. TATTLE TALE

[lutefisk]

161. lol...but, is one still a TATTLE TALE if the perp isn't named?...n/t

:shrug:

[Mike03]

6. And just for the record, X posted

A major reason I post here is because I'm not sure about my stances politically and want input and ideas from others.

But when I come here to ask questions, I'm immediately attacked or people suspect I have an agenda. My questions are met with suspicion, sarcasm, or just plain ignorance.

I used to come to DU to become educated more than to post opinions, and I still do, but it's become so unpleasant here that it's really... Eh... I don't even know how to express how bad I feel about how this place has become debased.

It's really depressing to me, because no matter how bad things were I could always come here. I would say, sometime after Fuck Head was re-elected, this place changed.

And I know I'm part of that trend, because I'm not the gentleman I used to be. I'm getting pissed and more pissed with each day, and having more and more trouble hiding that when I post here. I used to be very polite, but I'm starting not to give a shit anymore.

(I come here to learn, but no one teaches me anymore, with one or two exceptions--so what is the point?)

[lonestarnot]

20. Well be more selective in reading threads.

[OneGrassRoot]

38. I agree wholeheartedly.

I read, though rarely interact any longer. Even having to be selective in what I read is taking a toll. It shouldn't be such hard work to get information without feeling...oh, hell, I don't even know what the word is. But it doesn't feel good.

As someone else said, posters such as yourself - for me probably a dozen in total - are what keep me here and give me hope.

[Sam Ervin jret]

62. the one or two exceptions, I quess, is the reason to keep coming back. AND

to be the EXCEPTIONS.

[juajen]

98. I believe you hit on it.

It is much harder to be upbeat with the horrible condition the government is in. I still try to keep positive, but it's harder and harder. Hello old friends, and yes, I certainly miss all of you who have not been posting, but especially, all of our old friends who are, sadly, just gone.

[5thGenDemocrat]

7. What once was discourse is now just sturm und drang

It's why I hardly ever post here any more -- I've got somewhere over 7000 posts since I started following DU in June 2001, but only a dozen (maybe two dozen) in the past year.
I do check in daily -- but rarely spend over ten minutes going through the forums. And I personally no longer have any opinion worth stating on any matter political or social whatsoever. What's the point of pissing into the wind?
John
I dread that there's still another eleven months until the Presidential election. By then, this place won't so much have splintered as been ground into dust. A pity, really.

[lonestarnot]

13. You are wrong.

[5thGenDemocrat]

19. See? That's exactly what I'm talking about

I'm "wrong." How the fuck am I wrong, exactly?
John
It's just my goddamned opinion.

[Maddy McCall]

23. This thread is turning crazy in numerous ways.

But the exchange you just had with the other poster made me laugh out loud. "You are wrong."

:rofl:

[lonestarnot]

26. I still love that frog!

:rofl:

[Maddy McCall]

28. Thanks.

I'm digging this thread. It's just a funny thread.

:D

[lonestarnot]

24. "this place won't so much have splintered as been ground into dust"

Wrong in your gawdamned opinion. Heh

[RedEarth]

135. lol....

5thGenDemocrat... great response and you pointed out a perfect example.

DU has become a strange place.... I'll post some articles from time to time but mostly just scan LBN, Greatest page and some of the topic forums....mainly, environment/energy. GD has become is like a psycho ward..not worth the time to read it.

[napi21]

85. I'm hoping you are proven wrong, and that most of what we're seeing

now is some people just feeling so strong about THEIR CANDIDATE that they take every comment or criticism personally. I think things will improve somewhat when one candidate is finally chosen.

FWIW I really do always try to take other's feelings into consideration when I post anything.

Please try to have patience a little longer. We really aren't that far from Jan/Feb.

[lonestarnot]

9. I think that the 7 years of bushitler has had an affect on posters.

[Cha]

37. That's some Psych 101..

that I can get behind. :hug:

[Breeze54]

42. Lonestar is good..really, really good!

;)

You're post caught me for a moment though! :P Good play!

[Cha]

45. I'm bad!

I know she's really really good!

[5thGenDemocrat]

49. Oh I see -- she's just joshing me, eh?

Cool. I'm out of here (again).
John
Because, to be honest, this place can get along just fine without me, as can the Democratic party.

[lonestarnot]

53. Watch out for the fucking door.

[5thGenDemocrat]

64. I will

See you at the polls.
John

[lonestarnot]

67. Fuckahuck supporter or who's that other looser?

[Breeze54]

55. Gheesh! ~ Lighten up!

What got your panties all twisted up in a knot?

This place isn't going to go to dust, as you stated in your opinion.

That's all lonestar was saying. Give it a rest. You're way to uptight.

Here... have a beer on me and chill out.

[Cha]

63. I have no idea

what you're talking about? I was replying to a couple of posts and staying out of anything else.

[tom_paine]

56. Unquestionably. For all of us. n/t

[mmonk]

78. You hit on something

though I'm late to this thread and I'm not sure what it's all about.

[autorank]

107. What's going on? I''ve been noticing a lot of good posting. lately.

The stealth kind where just the right news article gets posted or, more typically, a combination of excerpts with analysis like the one levymg did recently. There have been a number of those that I bookmarked and read at my leisure, very informative. Then there are the obligatory posts by ultra partisans and the snits that people get into. I actually like the pure candidate propaganda. It's an art form. But the posters usually don't care for any dialog. I've been in and out lately so I'm not aware of the decline the poster is talking about. One thing I have noticed is the absence of quite a few people I enjoyed on threads. Many of them are just gone.

There's so much more out there on information super highway, so many specialized forums. There are also some very high level general forums like SmirkingChimp.Com, OpEdNews.Com, and Agnonist.Com which totally rock. There down to business and left wing. I think that siphons off a fair number of users.

I'm also finding that I'm posting and checking GD almost exclusively. I find it very useful but with this many users, you'd think there would be more diversity. But it works for my browsing and posting enjoyment.

I do find that the truly first rate posts here are much better than you find most places and as good as anyplace. They have a depth and intensity, without the constraints.

Someone posted a front page from a couple of years ago. I saw this. I miss the Lounge contributing to the main crawl. Where else do you see stuff like this;):

I've just been molested by a dolphin, ask me anything
Discussion started at Fri Aug-01-03 02:44 AM by oustemnow

You and I may be the last ones here. Be sure to turn the lights out, I'll be asleep.

[Lasher]

10. Nothing is ever like it was.

The only thing truly perpetual is change. It's not bad, it just is.

[madfloridian]

12. Just "lower your expectations"....

just like they told us to do.

Lowering lowering...getting lower.

[Breeze54]

14. 7 years of abuse is taking it's toll.

It's happening on similar messageboards.

People are angry, upset and sick and tired of it all.

The weariness is showing. It'll get better but things do change over time.

The MB is evolving and there are a lot more new members then there were in '04.

A lot of the new members, I suspect, are of the younger crowd and so, need to be
updated on what they missed and don't understand because they were still in high
school when a lot of shit went down. Just my thoughts on it. Teach them! ;)

[lonestarnot]

15. To you Breeze54!

:toast:

[Breeze54]

33. To you too!! ~ I posted this and then saw you said

the same thing! What's that saying about great minds think alike? :P

To you, lonestarnot! (I've laid off the beers!) ;)

:loveya:

[lonestarnot]

51. Hot peppermint tea tonight. Am freezing in AZ. LOL

I'd never make it in Wisconsin.

[Breeze54]

59. I'm freezing in MASS!! LMAO! and the heat isn't working on the 1st floor.

:(

It's frigging cold down there!! I thought it was a fluke this morning and
it warmed up during the day but it's fracking cold down there tonight!

I had to boil two pots of H2O this morning to bring the temp up!
Humidity helps to do that! ;)

It's about 31 F degree's here right now but it feels like 28!

"You don't KNOW what cold is"!! :rofl: :P :rofl:

[lonestarnot]

69. Makes me ache for you just hearing about it.

[lonestarnot]

70. Makes me ache for you just hearing about it.

[iamthebandfanman]

16. oh yeah

i can tell by your post that no-one was self righteous 4 years ago.

[Occam Bandage]

21. And it's pretty easy to test that hypothesis. Looks like you're right.

http://web.archive.org/web/20031105154935/www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/
http://web.archive.org/web/20031204022040/http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php
http://web.archive.org/web/20040202185437/www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=104
http://web.archive.org/web/20040401100624/http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=132

Looks like some vitriol, but nothing like we have now.

[JuniperLea]

22. You are wrong... wrong, wrong, wrong...

Every election brings it out.

[Whisp]

25. I've been reading here for a long time and

have to agree with you.

way more dumb people here now, lots of smart ones gone.

[Javaman]

140. you know what that is right?

since 2004 lots of repukes have defected. LOL they may have switched teams but they didn't bring the level of intelligence with them. ;) LOL

[Whisp]

147. I was in a pissy mood when I said that.

I still mean it in a way, but was a bit harsh. Yes, a lot of good people have left, but this place still has some amazing minds and thinkers. I'm not so sure of the freeper infiltration tho - although that certainly is an ingredient in the mix, I think that people are gettng really scared and dissapointed in the dem leadership and are responding in a defensive, divisive way out of fear. It's scarey to think you have been betrayed - scarey enough to deny it and stamp your feet while chugging their own flavor of kool-aid.

we have no representation.

[AlCzervik]

29. The Pope war, those were epic! When Reagan died it almost as epic but not quite.

i will never forget someone posting "All your Popes r belong to us"

[knitter4democracy]

31. I'd say it's gotten worse since November, definitely.

I've been surprised by how nasty some people have been at posts that I thought were rather straightforward. People are at the end of their ropes in other parts of their lives, I think, and then let it loose here. It's too bad, though--much less education going on than a year ago and far more snark and nastiness.

[frogcycle]

32. and i got hammered for my DU in the DUmper post a month or two ago!

maybe my shit tolerance is less than yours! :rofl:

you'll enjoy getting your life back!

[lildreamer316]

35. A TELLING sign is the lack of use of the SPELLCHECK.

HELlo.

[juajen]

101. Yeah, most of the time I do not even bother to get on my motorcycle,

N/T

[Stinky The Clown]

39. The enemy used to be the Republicans. Now its every democrat and every DU member.

The Wild West was more civilized.

Someone posted, just in the last day or so, a poll asking where Dem Bashing was worse ...... here or Freeperville. Most thought it was worse here.

So yeah ...... a lot worse now than before.

[PCIntern]

44. No doubt....

'casue a lot of the Dem bashing is performed by pseudo-DUers.

and you know what I'm talking about!!

[Whisp]

87. You found the answer, Husb.

when it was only Republicans we thought were the criminals, things went far smoother here as a community - common enemy comraderie. Now that we are finding out so much sickening things about the Democrats, the atmosphere has changed dramatically. It's very personal now - some just don't want to face up to some facts and hang on to the pleasant fantasies.

[Marrah_G]

121. Here is my thought on that

I think that after the elections you had alot of people who thought a majority of any size would mean all the Dems could pass through everything they wanted. When that didn't happen they got incredibly emotional and lashed out. Rather then hearing alot of voices explaining the situation you instead saw either them cheering each other on or trolls cheering them on until they were convinced they were right. It has snowballed badly from there.

No longer are the freepers the enemy, they have once again managed to convince even some of those who are supposed to be the most informed that the Dems are the enemy, not the RWers. Feeding on emotion and putting reason and logic by the wayside.

I love Du. I started reading after the Kerry Blog and IRC room shut down. It took a while for me to start posting, but I always loved reading it every morning for my news. The OP is right, it has changed, it is very different now.

[RufusTFirefly]

40. Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

"You should have seen the Atlantic Ocean in those days." -- Lou Pascal

[hiphopnation]

170. LMAO

:spray:

another choice quote from that scene:

"Those are Mr. Lebowski's children."
"Oh, wow. So racially, he's pretty cool."

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LaurenG]

48. Why don't you ask Skinner and the mods what it was like last primary season

It was nasty.

Just because you see others being impolite shouldn't be an excuse for anyone else to act the same either.

If your candidate is being bashed ...join the club, so are all of mine, it was the same last primary season.

[progressivebydesign]

58. The last primary season was not this brutal... it was not pretty but not like this.

Of course we didn't have as many paid... oh wait.. can't say that.

[Mike03]

61. Chrissakes, I was here for that

It wasn't even close to what is going on now. You know that.

Please.

[ShaneGR]

81. It wasn't like this at all...

Not even close. And I started posting in 2002.

[sandnsea]

99. Yep, some people can't see themselves

There aren't as many good policy debates this time around, but the vitriol was worse last year if you were a supporter of an unpopular candidate.

[blondeatlast]

120. Yes, the primes were brutal--but this has become savage.

It's sickening--smart, thought-provoking posts die a slow death and flamewars fo on for DAYS--long past where anyone is reading anything original.

[fishnfla]

50. Who is saying that DU "has always been like this"?

Skinner for one, when every so often people start complaining about stuff like this.

[blondeatlast]

122. I don't think it's cool for others to speak for the admins. nt

[progressivebydesign]

52. Been here since early 2001, and you're RIGHT. it has NOT been this way.

I will absolutely attest to that! I used to be "Caliphoto" for years, and changed my screenname during the amnesty period after the election. I don't recognize a ton of folks from back then.. but I've been commenting recently how much DU has changed, and how sad I am about it! It used to be us vs. them (them being the repugs), but there are more Democrat vs. Democrat threads and generally snarkiness than there is about Bush & CHeney, et al. We have become our own enemy and I don't know if it's infiltrators or immaturity or the tone of the internet now. DU used to be a fun place where we all kinda knew what was going on with each other's lives... DUers had been through deaths, births, marriages, suicides, job losses, etc. etc. etc., and everyone was so supportive and rallied together. There doesn't seem to be that camraderie anymore...

[ShaneGR]

80. Ya, the anti-Dem threads are overwhelming anymore

I remember when I used to come here because it was a place to chat with likeminded people with the goal of opposing the Bush "doctrine." But since the Dems won Congress, and have been blocked by Presidential veto power, fillibusting, and people didnt get the mythical impeach now stuff, this site has falled apart. I still come, still post, but it's more frustrating than exciting anymore.

[LostinVA]

57. Agreed

[Mike03]

65. The feedback is much appreciated.

I feel so bad about making these posts, because when I stumbled on DU I just thought it was the greatest place in the world.

I know things will get better here over time.

[Breeze54]

66. Things here will be rocking as soon as we take back the WH and the Senate!!

:hug:

Fret not, it's just growing pains, with the emphasis on the pain for the moment. ;)

[Mike03]

71. Thank you, You are probably right.

I am sure I'm over reacting and we will unite once our course of destiny is a bit clearer.

[caligirl]

68. OP I really agree with you. many du'ers who actually new what they were talking

about have left. There are a few with insight and great posts but compared to four years ago its not as good. I don't spend nearly as much time here as I did even two years ago. Many great ones left.

[arendt]

72. Same thing happened when the WWW replaced the old internet...

the old internet was populated by, at minimum, people who knew their way around a computer when that skill was akin to owning a cranky model T car.

<I'm sure I will be accused of being an elitist when I say that...>

You had tough, but honest, debates on the old net. There was decorum. Arguments were more important than insults, although cleverness was appreciated. There was a certain unwritten code of behavior. Then, the WWW let anyone who could afford a PC and an AOL account into the usenet forums, and things went to hell.

Same thing at DU. When it was new, only people who sought it out found it. There was decorum. (And, much as I salute the mods; it has now degenerated to people posting images of people giving you the finger, and calling that debate.).

So, yeah. You are right. K&R.

arendt

[Blashyrkh]

73. I agree. Having lurked in one form or another since 2000...

...the discourse has definately fallen from university discussions to "I know you are but what am I?"

In fairness though, DU in 2000 was a very political place. There weren't as many casual followers here and there was a sharper focus. 7 years of growth has expanded the tent to include a much wider variety of people and a wider variety of points of view.

At the same time, I have little doubt that as one of the largest leftwing discussion boards on the internet, DU has been the target of shenanigans from both ends of the political spectrum.

[Stand and Fight]

105. You mean 2001, right?

The site was founded as a reaction to Bush being selected (AKA stealing) the election in 2000 from the honorable Al Gore... Just saying.
(I started lurking in 2002 myself... DU played a major part in helping me sort out the BS lead-up to the Iraq quagmire when I was still in the Army by the way... A greater place back then.)

[seemslikeadream]

74. Check out the achives sometime

It was a wonderful time

http://web.archive.org/web/%2a/http://www.democraticunderground.com

[kohodog]

76. Yep, I've become a lurker.

But it can be great again, especially if a progressive dem is nominated. Otherwise, I may be relegated to the sidelines. There is way too much mud and mudslinging in the middle.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

75. Couldnt agree more, been here since 03, DU has become a circular firing swamp of bilge & bile.

:(

[SIMPLYB1980]

77. K&R

I thought it was just me, glad I was wrong.

[ShaneGR]

79. There is little rational discussion, as a liberal-moderate guy, the site has regressed

I could always argue for and against positions people held, based on my own positions, but the lines are so thick and ridiculous anymore its sad. There are too many people posting anymore who take the ultra hardline on every issue, "my way or the highway," there isn't any reason, any intelligent discussion, it makes me sad because I've been posting here for at least 5 years.

[high density]

82. I agree

It's really going down the toilet. I'm surprised so many people still visit here because of the general hostility that one fairly innocent post can start up. GD: Politics is a total wasteland. Too many self-appointed operatives for candidate X either trying to praise their guy or bash the others. The amount of useless noise in there is so high that I don't know why I still try and find something worth reading in there.

[in_cog_ni_to]

83. Weren't you here for the 2004 Primaries?

:scared:

This stuff is MILD compared to the Howard Dean, Wes Clark, John Kerry, John Edwards and Dennis Kucinich flame war. Are you kidding me? This is NUTHIN'! Just wait until the election gets closer if you think DU is bad now.

Granted, the types of things we discuss are different, but we've been living in hell for the last 7+ years under this murderous, warmongering administration. What do you expect? We're all mad as hell. I know I have had enough of the thugs in power and am counting the days until they are out of power.

[MGKrebs]

84. Doesn't seem to be as much "learning" or "exploring" here anymore.

There was some crack research going on here for a long time, but now, many already seem to know everything about everything.

I mean, if you're not interested in polls, why does one feel compelled to say that in every frigging thread that mentions a poll?

It's mostly just some perverse form of entertainment for me now. Plus I still try to hone my rhetoric sometimes.

[nonconformist]

88. You are very right, and it's the main reason I'm not around that much anymore.

It is way too frustrating.

[sjdnb]

89. Nor has the internet has always been like this ... or TV, radio, etc.

I've been online since '94 or so -- before popups, commercialization, phishing, etc. Before Microsoft had a browser and Netscape 1.0. I used Veronica, Gopher, and WAIS.

A lot has changed because more and more people have access. Something I believe is a good thing and was and, continues to be, fought for.
http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120/ch106.x18
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2007/01/25/beyond_net_neutrality_lies_internet_freedom.php

Now, I may not agree with or like some of the things I have to wade through online, but I certainly believe that everyone is entitled to have access and a say -- and, further, that it is essential to the principles of democracy and liberty.

[Festivito]

90. New members like new students with the "usual minds of MUSH."

But, the best way for think-tank operatives to destroy DU is to increase the level of WHINE in order to DIVIDE and then, well, you know.

And it has worked. Some have left. Leaving the whiners to look more pronounced.

When needed the operatives will leave DU and find the refuges found by those who fled and suddenly DU will look goodly.

WE ARE FIGHTING ENTRENCHED MONEY. It will never relent.

Use the ignore feature if you can't take it. But, keep fighting.

[proudmoddemo]

94. I disagree

I think it has to do with the primary process. It was nasty here in late 2003 too (had a different account and e-mail address back then). I stopped posting in 2004 because I was busy. And by the time i felt like posting again (last year), I had a new e-mail account and couldn't remember my old password.

But I also think that there's nothing wrong with the arguments. This kind of stuff has been going on since Adams and Jefferson were running against each other. Partisan rhetoric is indeed part of democracy. Democracy never was, has been, or will be some sort of congenial academic discussion about policy. It'll be about people. It'll spark attacks on those people. Etc. But, still, it takes guns out of the hands of people when they are making this decision, and therefore is a superior system.

Still, in my mind, it is pretty naive to suggest that democracy has not always been like this. Read the crap that Jefferson peddled about Adams in leaflets. It's Rovian, or should we say Jeffersonian?

[CTyankee]

134. You'd better be careful when you talk about taking guns out of people's hands!

Have you noticed the upsurge in DUers with guns and arguing that the individual has a right to decide what is law and order in a community? I didn't hear from these folks back when I started at DU, right before the election. Now, they pop up like a whack a mole game.

[proudmoddemo]

148. Let me clarify:

I think this arguments on internet discussion forums and in bars (where they happened previously) about politics and policy are far better than the alternative (guns, see countries like Sudan, Iraq, etc; or repression Saudi Arabia, Russia, etc). The stuff you hate here--even if it is a freeper troll talking about their guns--is infinitely better than that. Also the increase in people talking about guns could have something to do with people like Senator Webb, who is adamantly pro-gun. They have greatly helped the party out with its rural performance. I live in a rural area--people like guns here. If they decided to join the Democratic Party or DU, I am happy. But I also know, they're going to be talking about their guns. Fine with me. They have an absolute right under the second amendment to have them in my view.

[CTyankee]

151. Well, I don't think Senator Webb thinks they have an "absolute" right to guns.

I am a big believer in the the First Amendment but I know there is no "absolute" right to speech (time, place and manner, such as sound trucks in hospital zones). I am sure that your neighbors and friends like their guns. I bet they like public safety, too. Perhaps we could agree on that as a topic within which we can reason out the gun problems in our communities.

[proudmoddemo]

153. Senator Webb?

He's the guy that carries a pistol to his office. Just saying. Not uncommon around here. The pro-gun people argue that more guns actually means better public safety. A theory along the lines of the mutually assured destruction theory of international relations.

[CTyankee]

156. Yep, I've heard that one too.

Well, it looks like we don't have discourse on the subject anyway. But do tell me, why have a police force anyway?

[proudmoddemo]

157. Because there are issues that don't involve guns:

Domestic violence, burglary, etc, which require their involvement. Webb's chief of staff was caught trying to bring his gun back into the office after he dropped Webb off at the Airport. Webb does have a concealed-carry permit, so that is legal. Don't know if it's against the rules of the Senate or not. I imagine it would be. I laughed when that thing broke.

[CTyankee]

164. So you agree the government should have some control over guns?

You know, permits and some such, right? So then, can we extrapolate that the state has some legitimate rights over the right of the people to have guns, yes?

[proudmoddemo]

166. ID and Background Checks

Permits for concealed carry.

[CTyankee]

167. I agree with you as far as you go.

Like the First Amendment, there are exceptions where state control is desirable and efficient.

An interesting little story: when I was an ESOL tutor I had a class of well educated women from China, who spoke excellent English but really wanted to learn American English idioms and American history and culture. One woman with a very serious expression on her face asked if it was legal for her to shoot squirrels (she made a handgun gesture with her right hand). I was so taken aback that the only thing I could answer was that I doubted if she would be prosecuted for shooting a squirrel but her real offense could be using a handgun without the proper licensure. Later I realized that the local PETA chapter would have real problems with such an act... It is interesting, tho, that she even asked that question. Mostly, my class participants who all watch "Sex and the City" had questions about idiomatic meanings...and that got pretty funny fast!!!

[MrMickeysMom]

95. Well, now I have an inferiorit complex...

... As someone who only actively posted here in 2007 (less than 100 posts for the first 2 years)... I now want to ask if my ass looks fat in your mirror... I mean... I think I have a complex, cause unless I look at the archives, I can't imagine that conversation situation. So, I feel somehow less now.

What is "it" supposed to "be like"? I know I've gotten knocked around, but am I THAT WAY? Or is the whole world (see other GD thread " fucked up", or we'd be nicer here???

Really... aren't I worthy of conversation with you?

[Mythsaje]

96. I have only been here about two and a half years...

I missed the last Presidential primary season (thank gawd), so I don't know what it was like back then.

I got lashed out at last night because I asked quite sincerely if DU has cliques. I'm blind to the damn things, so I wouldn't know.

I've tried to have serious discussions and some of the best posts I've made, the most thoughtful ones, have fallen like bricks. But rants...well, my rants often shoot up to the top. Hell, bashing Repugs isn't even hard. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

I get frustrated here on occasion, but I keep coming back. When it gets to be too much, I go away for a while, then return when I've recovered.

I couldn't imagine bypassing the chance to read another one of Nance's rants, or to check out the DUzies, or catch the latest toons.

The rest of it? Hit or miss.

[skypilot]

133. I got lashed out...

...because I asked quite sincerely if DU has cliques

THAT is something that HAS always been like it is now at DU. Over the years I've seen a number of posts asking about DU cliques and something about them really seems to strike a nerve with some people. I've always thought that there were some cliques here but there are enough other people here to interact with that I didn't care if I wasn't part of a clique. Still, I don't know why it gets some people so upset when the subject is raised.

[Mythsaje]

150. Yeah, I was told I was "smearing" DUers.

Really, really weird responses.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

97. Seems there

are a lot of things that people are uncomfortable with here and things that are censored.

Let the ideas stand on their own. Debate openly and honestly regardless of the topic. What's the problem with that?

[sandnsea]

100. The good policy posts are missing - the vitriol is the same

Then again, I have half the place on ignore so maybe I'm just missing how bad it has gotten. I will agree that quality posts are lacking, but they always dropped like a rock and I think people got tired of posting them. I know I did.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OneBlueSky]

106. the best posts are those pointing me to articles elsewhere . . .

quality original writing (and original thinking) is certainly scarce, but it does exist . . . posts by Ernest Partridge, Larisa Alexendrovna, and others are certainly worth reading, and I've even seen quality responses to what would seem to be inane posts . . .

it's not that the quality isn't there . . . it's just that it's so much harder to find, what with the dramatic growth in the number of posts over the past several years . . .

[Evoman]

108. I agree. I lurked for years before posting.

And right when I decided to start posting, things turned to shit.

.......not that...uh..me posting has...um...anything to do with the lack of civility..or anything...um.

Uh..mods...just ignore this post please.

[JCMach1]

109. Wrong... the primaries have ALWAYS been like this on DU

so much so it is often tempting just to bail for a few months...

[symbolman]

111. I remember back in '76 on the DU the weed was good but too expensive

Hell, Crack didn't even exist, and some folks were still wearing those damned Bell Bottoms with that gnarly stitched trim. My 35 megabyte PC was a Diesel, and started with a pullchain, but now my MAC HoloRaptureExpresso beams the voices right into my Skull :)

I miss the days when I had more Friends that I felt KNEW Me as a Person, that my sword was Sharp, and my Flash work wreaked Havoc, with maybe a 100 or more people responding to my latest, always my "Best" work :)

I miss you all. Good to see you :)

And NO this is NOT American Stranger, it's STILL Symbolman :)

[mogster]

112. LOL!

That cracked me up :rofl:

[symbolman]

113. Now THAT is

what I want to see More of :)

Glad you like, spread the good cheer, eh?

[mogster]

116. Ya

More liberal spirit and fun :-)
Back in '76 the DU admins had each post hand delivered by snail mail to each DU user, yes? :P

[mogster]

114. We must not let the anger set the agenda

Especially when public Democrats are involved IMHO. They need our backing and response when they try to set the agenda for liberal topics, else the topics won't get attention because of media bias. We're free to comment and criticise because we don't have any responsibility while they have to play by the rules. Rules that often are set by the rw and their media, and does not favor Democrats in the first place.

[blindpig]

115. Might it not have something to do with the performance

of the Party?

The frustration of continual disappointment and betrayal? The vehemence of supporters of the status quo defending the indefensible? Possibly even the realization that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear?

When belief systems collapse there's bound to be lots of fur flying. Instead of whining or being bemused the revelation should be liberating and a guide to further action.

[Marrah_G]

117. I use the ignore feature alot. It changes the whole dynamic.

I don't block people I disagree with, just people who are very rude, nasty and incapable of having a real conversation. It makes DU a much calmer place.

[deacon]

118. I see it as Rovian Spillover. Overall, we have good candidates and we shouldn't be lashing out at

each other like pundits from fox news. The wedge he drove down the country can't be permitted to overflow into the party. He problably loves seeing it. But the bottom line is we don't have to be the miserable assholes they are. We can kick it up and at least realize we are on the same side, as democrats, and show some gumption and not resort to swift boater each other.

[HamdenRice]

119. There are many dedicated trolls

You can tell who they are because their main rhetorical form of argumentation is:



and



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'm beginning to think they are paid. This place unfortunately also is crawling with party and candidate operatives.

[SIMPLYB1980]

125. Damn you made me spit my coffiee!

:spray:

[MrMickeysMom]

162. I'm actually comforted by your assessment

I have picked up on the pattern of some "trolls" sniff out certain topics and go for the jugular, or simple crap on the thread. I recognize about 3 of them, probably because I don't have history of posting in as many group threads. I've concluded that these folk can earn good money this doing that. There is plenty of money to lubricate these kinds of things, and DU is an easy forum to get on.

Anyway, the whole statement makes me feel better.

[Perry Logan]

123. Oddly, the worst bashers (the Hillary and Congress bashers) are totally ignorant of their targets.

[sniffa]

127. how true

the Obama and Edwards bashers are spot on though.

[flyarm]

132. i could not disagree more..the totally ignorant are those who have turned me off are those

supporting a certain lady candidate ..by using all the neo con * tactics!
I hardly come here any more..and i dare say..i don't post near as much..i see nothing intelligent coming out of a certain candidates lap dogs!

fly

[IronLionZion]

146. Oh Man, FUCK the Democrats!

:rofl:

[DFW]

124. I have only been around for 2 years or so.

Looks like I missed the good old days.

[sniffa]

126. it hasn't changed much

2003-04 was rough, and i think we're just going through that again.

i know some think it's the loss of good members, but that's just thinning the herd. the place is better without them.

[Le Taz Hot]

128. Been around since the inaugural year (November)

Frankly, DU is no different than any other board I've been on and I've been on political boards since the BBS days. Eventually they all degenerate into this. There are so many topics that desperately NEED to be discussed RATIONALLY but its just not possible anymore. Against Hillary? You're a mysogenist. Against Obama? You're a racist. It's insane. I wish people would come here to learn and ask questions and add to the debate instead of the "I'm rubber, you're glue" crap. Having said that I can snark with the best of them but I don't get on here to do that. Seems that too many people get on here to do ONLY that.

[AngryOldDem]

129. Said it before, I'll say it again.

It's just amazing how bold people become, safely ensconced behind a keyboard, basking in the anonymity.

Where else, and how else can one have complete and utter freedom to be an asshole, without anyone to effectively call one out on their assholery?

There's still a lot of displaced anger here over 2004, which is from where I date the slow decline of DU.

It's rare to find any discussion here anymore that doesn't disintegrate into insults at some point. But then, this is the Internet.

[RandomKoolzip]

130. I hear this so much about DU and I think it's funny.

No one ever wants to acknowedge change in themselves - unless it's, like, a weight loss or the end of the grieving process or something. It's always the outside world that's changed, not ME, no never is it ME.

[flyarm]

131. I could not agree more..and i hardly come here and post anymore..

it is sad..

well i am no longer game for this bullshit.

no one has turned me off more on a candidate than those supporting a certain candidate who wants to be pres!
no one.


FLY

[bryant69]

136. I've been here since 2002 - it's always been like this for me

It could be that, as a total asshole, I just bring out the worst in people.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[closeupready]

137. I agree that the level of discussion has too often become juvenile.

It used to be so inspiring here, so it's sad to see how far things have declined.

[skypilot]

138. I have noticed that a number of posts keep mentioning...

...the primaries, as though the behavior that you are talking about only surfaces then. I had to go back and read your OP to see if you had even mentioned DU behavior during primaries but, as far as I can tell, you seem to be talking about DU interactions in general--and I agree with you. I remember the last presidential primaries and noting that things were especially nasty but things have gotten nasty in general here at DU even during non-election periods. As so many have already said in this thread, "I rarely post here anymore". I even remember thinking that things were getting a little touchy in the Lounge at one point, only to later come across a thread posted by Skinner asking whether personal problems and issues were starting to crop up in the Lounge. After that I realized that it wasn't just my imagination.

[robcon]

139. What is the OP talking about?

Mike03, clearly corporatist scum, claims "it hasn't always been like this." You are repeating Republican talking points, Mike03, and we've known for some time that you're a Rovian plant, or worse, a Clinton/Obama/Edwards supporter, or worse, someone who disagrees with an occasional word that Kucinich speaks, or worse, you probably don't think attempted impeachment is a good idea, or worse, are a pro-capitalist, or worse, an anti-Fairness Doctrine scum sucking pig of a poster.

OOPS, :sarcasm:

[WilliamPitt]

141. I've been on DU for nearly seven years now

and it's been like this more often than it hasn't.

[RiverStone]

143. Funny how folks complain...

When inherent in posting OP's in such a public manner invites all sorts of mischief. People could just keep opinions to theirself, but then where would that leave DU?

Personally DU feels like life --- most folks are well meaning. A few a-holes, and few saints, but mostly everything in between.

Anyway, ya can't herd cats. I've only been here 1.5 years, but on balance - it's been time well spent.

[Forkboy]

152. I think it's pretty much the same too.

But we're heartless people from Mass who cheat and make fun of dead people, so what do we know? :)

[WilliamPitt]

155. *takes a knee*

;)

[Forkboy]

158. Ah...such fond memories.

:rofl:

[mike_c]

142. primary season always cranks up the animosity, but this is the worst...

...I've seen in five years.

When you've been around here for a few years you begin to recognize that the character of the place is never static-- people come and go, including some very sharp, articulate posters. That's normal, I think. So change is always the norm.

Primary seasons are the worst-- the forums become flooded with hot heads and drive-by partisans looking for cheap shots rather than honest discussion. The admins and mods have struggled with that from the beginning, but the nature of the board makes it impossible-- and probably undesirable-- to prevent animosity and just plain ugliness. The mods can react, but that only keeps the problem simmering. Prevention has to come from the membership itself, and that just doesn't happen during the primaries, I'm afraid.

That said, I agree that THIS particular downswing is one of the worst I've seen. Maybe not THE worst-- remember during the early days of the war against Iraq when DU was INVADED by war cheerleaders bent on attacking anyone who questioned the war, the military, and so on? That was vicious-- they had no intention of preserving their membership and therefore no incentive to be even basically civil. I think that was the absolute worst I've ever experienced here-- back in late 2003 and early 2004.

I think DU will just continue going through its cycles. Some of us will move on, others will stay, and the character of the place will fluctuate.

[IronLionZion]

145. Regardless of what a few knuckleheads post

never forget that there are good people on here too. There are also many people who don't post but just read quietly.

[AuntPatsy]

149. I agree, it is getting harder and harder not to call them as you see them..

[LSK]

159. Critical thought and sourcing have gone right out the window

Black and white reigns supreme here. Its sad.

[QC]

160. Too many now come looking for a fight, hoping desperately to be offended

so that they can get all righteously indignant.

And, as others have said, sourcing and logic and all that sort of thing are out the window: now it's all about throwing drama tantrums and demonizing Democrats and such. It's like politics is now some weird combination of religion, therapy, and performance art.

I come here to read the headlines in LBN now but don't have much interest in GD. Frankly, it's become a magnet for netkook drama queens.

[ulysses]

163. oh come on. this is the group that argues about olive garden.

Yes, Virginia, DU has always been like this, at least periodically.

[Lilith Velkor]

165. DU used to be worse than this

It seems downright gentrified these days.

[hiphopnation]

169. several posts slamming Oprah

:wtf:

DU was NOT always like this