My son's teacher lectured the daughter of a Veteran for not standing for the Pledge.

[in_cog_ni_to]

She told her it was disrespectful of her to not honor the country her father had fought for. I asked my son if the girl was sitting as a protest...like he does, and he said "Nope. She's planning on enlisting after she's out of school." I reminded him that the teacher broke the law. As long as the girl was being respectful and just sitting there, the teacher "legally" cannot say a word about it. He said the girl didn't do anything wrong and WAS just sitting there. He said, "I don't know what was wrong with Mrs. ******** yesterday, but she was awful! She kept asking all the kids how they celebrate Christmas and talking about how she celebrates it. I asked him if he piped up and reminded her that HE celebrates Chanukah and did he tell her what we do to celebrate it? He said he didn't because she already knows he's Jewish. He also said her room has Christmas decoration all over it. I told him that as long as she has no crosses up, he shouldn't say anything, but offered to let him take in a Star of David candle we have or a Menorah...for decoration. He declined the offer.:)

Anyway...this really is just about this lady lecturing a girl for not standing for the Pledge. We've been there, done that that! They're still at it, even in High School!

[Ian David]

1. Good for you guys!

I'd bring a Menorah, not a Star of David, for Chanukah. It could be argued that a Star of David is the Jewish equivalent of a Christian's Cross.

[in_cog_ni_to]

3. Well, he chose to take neither and just ignore the whole issue.

:)

[Ian David]

11. Be careful you don't anger The Flying Spahetti Monster. n/t

[pansypoo53219]

2. high school? taint that retarded?

do they have CIVICS classes?
course, how can i tell, went to a bloody lutheran HS. no pledge. but we did have civics.

[in_cog_ni_to]

4. No Civics classes anymore. I think this is his French teacher. n/t

[zbdent]

12. Wouldn't that be an RHE? Republican Head Exploder?

A conservative FRENCH TEACHER lecturing about the freedoms on this country? (I know it's not a "teacher who is French", but a language teacher who teaches French)

If the teacher is a Repuke/Conservative, then I wouldn't take her advice about how to behave when a person goes to France ...

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. I think they love the French now. Remember, their new prez LOVES the psycho-in-chief.

:eyes:

[Captain Hilts]

5. What's wrong with saying the pledge? nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

6. If you WANT to say the Pledge 5 times a week, nothing is wrong with it. However,

you do not have to stand for the pledge if you don't want to. It's the law.

[Captain Hilts]

33. I know that. But what is the objection many people have to saying it? nt

[Lex]

39. Does there have to be a reason stated or scrutinzed?

No.

[immoderate]

42. Being forced to pledge is un-American.

This is a free country. I personally think things like the pledge are stupid and creepy. What is the purpose of going through that ritual every day? Can you think of a good reason to do that? It is not consistent with being a free citizen. Hint: I don't belong to a flag.

--IMM

[Captain Hilts]

51. I don't think anyone should be forced to say the pledge. But what are the objections to saying it?

[immoderate]

52. Why say it? What are you trying to accomplish?

I think if you try to find reasons to say it, you'll also find those are the reasons to not say it. Millions of people are forced to do it every day. It's an assertion of control that I don't acknowledge. It smacks of medieval oaths of fealty. It feels inconsistent with American notions of liberty. What is its purpose if not to manipulate people?

I wouldn't want to stop people from saying it. But it's not true. We're not under god. There is not liberty and justice for all. It is addressed to a piece of cloth, and I reserve the right to not support the republic if I disagree with it. I support the Constitution, because it makes sense to me, and it's a good framework for governance. I don't have to ritually affirm that every day.

Do you say it every day? Why should children say it every day? And why not on weekends? It's a mindless and thoughtless ritual. Would it hurt me to do it? I don't think so, but that's not a good reason to do it.

--IMM

[Heidi]

55. YES, there ARE valid objections to it. Indoctrinating children to nationalism and blind patriotism

is a very good reason to object.

[LittleClarkie]

49. You shouldn't have to prove you're patriotic

by reciting the same pledge day after day as if your allegiance expires after 24 hours.

[Captain Hilts]

57. I thought it was a drag too, but it didn't hurt me any. nt

[robinlynne]

8. I didn't say the pledge in grade school because of the vietnam war. Got sent to

detention and my mom went to the school board and raised hell.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. For some, it is a violation of their faith

Jehovah's Witness say that the pledge is worshiping a graven image, and they won't do it. Others won't say it for political reasons.

[hunter]

25. My mom was a Jehovah's Witness when I was a kid.

Even when my mom was kicked out of the church for her political activism, I still didn't say the pledge.

The pledge strikes me wrong on two accounts -- number one the graven image aspect, and number two the "under God" part. I cannot believe that God measures anyone by their nationality, and it seems to me nationalism is a force for evil more often than not.

My views have softened a little bit over the years, I will stand out of respect for others, but the "under God" part still strikes me as blasphemous.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

28. and if you were in my class,

I would respect that, and tell anyone who asks that you were exercising your First Amendment rights, which is what makes our country great.

[roody]

43. If you were in my class, you would see the teacher

standing respectfully, not saying the pledge.

[Captain Hilts]

32. Yes, that I understand. A friend of mine was a Jehovah Witness. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

13. Maybe you don't want to pledge allegiance to anything

You are not required to do so, in any case, and pledging under duress is like declaring one's love under shotgun threat; it violates the voluntary nature of the speech act.

I won't say the pledge because I don't like the notion of national allegiance. There, I said it. I'm an internationalist, a secularist anarchistic scum. The very notion of pledging allegiance to any particular nation state entity makes me queasy, and I won't do it. I stopped saying the pledge in junior high school.

[Iggo]

26. What's wrong with not saying it? n/t

.

[Captain Hilts]

36. Nothing. But I don't understand the hostility it generates. nt

[roody]

40. Why would you pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth?

Why would you say there is a god? Why would you lie and say that everyone enjoys liberty and justice?

[mitchum]

48. What's right about an oath of fealty to a freaking piece of cloth?

it's just absurd

[Yavapai]

58. for me it's "one nation, UNDER GOD"

[in_cog_ni_to]

59. That's a good reason. By law, you don't have to give a "reason" for not saying it.

It's your RIGHT, whatever your reason is. That's the rub here. If the teacher would have minded her own business and let the girl practice her right to free speech, this wouldn't even be an issue. These damn teachers who pass their moral judgments off on everyone else are the problem. :(

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. Most unprofessional behavior

When I taught school, there were Jehovah's Witnesses in my class. The first day, when they didn't stand, the other kids asked about it. I told them that it was against their religion to stand, and THAT IT WAS GREAT THAT THEY COULD DO THAT. I went on to explain the First Amendment and the establishment clause. The JW parents thanked me later for doing that, as there was never any flak from anyone about them not standing. Sounds like today I'd be persecuted for insisting that we follow the Constitution.

[robinlynne]

9. good for you!!!!!! Were it that all teachers taught freedom.

[unpossibles]

15. I'm constantly amazed at how many people feel the best way to honor our rights

is to not use them.

EDIT:
by this, I mean the teacher. The kid has the right to not do the pledge, and the teacher tried to guilt her into it.

[Tempest]

16. You should file a grievance with the principal and school board

Your son witnessed it so it's appropriate if you're the one who speaks up.

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. Nah...let her Veteran dad do it. HOWEVER, the wench did say she was going to call the girl's dad and

tell him what she was doing!:grr: I did think about emailing her just to remind her of the LAW, but as long as it's not my son she's bitchin' at, I'll mind my own business. I've been through this already with my son and his middle school. His teacher embarrassed HIM in front of the entire class for not standing for the pledge and she got an earful from me. I'm hoping my son explains the law to the girl so she knows she has the law on her side.

[Tempest]

18. Her veteran dad will probably be a good soldier

And not say a word to the school.

[One_Life_To_Give]

19. For sitting or not reciting?

Sitting thru the pledge like sitting thru O Canada may be legal. But is also disrespectful IMHO.

[in_cog_ni_to]

21. The Pledge is not our National Anthem. She was sitting and NOT saying it.

She doesn't have to. It's the law.

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that held that the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution protected students from being forced to salute the American flag and say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.

[One_Life_To_Give]

23. I understand he/she doesn't have to

IMO Standing silently shows respect for those who may choose to, while sitting shows disrespect/contempt.

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. No it doesn't. It shows that you have a mind of your own and if you don't feel the NEED to pledge

allegiance to a piece of cloth because you think it's stupid. Once you pledge to something, you pledge to it. Saying it every day at school is stupid. IMCPO. It's not disrespectful or contemptible if that is how one feels. It's their choice and it's also the law.

[LeftyMom]

27. Standing suggests agreement/participation.

She doesn't have to stand for the pledge if she doesn't want to, and if sitting down is respecting her own principles, that's what we're supposed to be all about as a country.

I don't stand up. I don't want anybody to think I consent to nationalist drivel.

[One_Life_To_Give]

29. I understand sitting is a protest.

The same would be true if Shrub were to sit thru a similar recitation at the Russian Duma, Iranian Revolutionary Council, etc.

[LeftyMom]

31. Only if the OP neglected to mention that the girl is foreign and class was held in Congress.

She's not going out of her way to object, she's not mooning the people engaged in flag worship or something, she's just not participating. She has every right to do that, and doing so isn't rude at all.

[Captain Hilts]

35. Agreed. nt

[immoderate]

46. That's all in your head.

These are all ways of coercing obeisance where it isn't warranted. Saying the pledge, singing the song are not educational activities. They are indoctrination. People should get respect. People not in uniform are free to do what they want. This country did fine for 100 years without a pledge.

There is every reason to resist people forcing you into actions that serve no purpose.

--IMM

[One_Life_To_Give]

54. Thats why one might protest it.

And one way to show protest with the pledge in school is to sit thru it. IMHO

[Heidi]

56. Then, by the same token, perhaps those who want to say the pledge should sit down for a sec or two

to show their respect for those who choose _not_ to say it. Continuing to stand while others are sitting shows "disrespect/contempt," doesn't it?

On edit: too many commas

[roody]

45. It is disrespectful to force people to stand and say

something that they do not believe or do not understand, in the case of kindergarteners.

[Ravy]

20. I read a bit more into that...

with your smile after saying your son declined the offer for the candle or Menorah. Was it because your son felt there would be ramifications if he did? The teacher creating or condoning that climate is wrong.

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. No. It was just a grin for him doing what he always does when I suggest something...

he declines it because mom doesn't know anything.:) Plus, I think he's just tired of fighting the religion battle. We've been fighting it since he started school. He was the ONLY Jewish kid in the school and was always harassed. He's probably just sick and tired of the whole thing.

[hayu_lol]

30. A lot of you may be too young to remember the 'old' pledge...

For the record, the entire class stood first thing in the morning, started to recite the pledge(learned in kindergarten). "I pledge allegiance, to the flag"...and at this point, our right arms came up at a 45 degree angle with the palm of the hand up. This hand motion was stopped in '42 because it looked, with the exception of the upward facing palm, just like the NAZI salute. The words "under god" were NOT a part of the pledge.

Also for the record(Los Angeles Public Schools), our teacher in first grade asked, as a part of one lesson, what religion we represented. I believe that the lesson was about the small differences between Americans. 3 of us were Catholics and the rest of the 25 person class was evenly split between prots and Jewish kids. None of us thought much about that at the time. None of us ever had any religion problems with each other.

[Hekate]

41. I'm too young to remember the stiff-arm, but I remember when "under God" was added...

This country is big on cultural amnesia. There are a lot of Americans who seem to think the Pledge of Allegiance was concocted in 1776, and that In God We Trust went on the coinage the same year. Oy.

Hekate

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. There was a picture of kids doing that salute here on DU, not long ago.

Creepy!

The RW evangelicals have made religion an issue in this country. They want everyone to be like them or they won't be satisfied. It's a crime what they have done to "live and let live" in the name of religion.

[lonestarnot]

34. And is anyone suing the school or the teacher?

[in_cog_ni_to]

37. Not that I know. I asked my son tonight if the girl knows the law is on her side and she does. I

also asked him how the Veteran dad feels about the issue and he said he didn't know...he really doesn't talk to the girl that much. I thought about sending the teacher a link to this: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=319&invol=624

anonymously....so my son doesn't have to pay for me butting my nose in. What do you think, lonestarnot? Should I? Or should I just mind my own business?

My son also told me that today they were singing "Jesus" songs in French dlass and other religious Christmas songs. He said he just sat there and didn't participate. The woman is getting on my last nerve with this crap.

[lonestarnot]

38. It is your damn business! You have a kid going there!

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. But she hasn't harassed HIM for not standing for the pledge...just this poor girl.

If it was my son, I wouldn't hesitate. I've already been through this with him in his Middle School. That's more than likely why she isn't harassing him. It's probably in his school record.. I think the parents of the girl should be the ones to fight for their daughter, like I fought for my son. I am so tired of fighting these freakin' battles. We have only 4 more years to get through and we'll be FINISHED with this shit in this District. I cannot wait.

[momster]

60. Okay, Singing Jesus Songs

means it's time for you to call the principal. That's crossing the line (pardon the pun) and since it is now affecting your kid directly, time to call. Secondly, the teacher's treatment of the girl is actually affecting your son. In the teenage years, the one thing everyone dreads is being singled out. By singling out this young lady, the teacher is quelling any other dissent or p.o.v. in her class. Time to talk to a higher up.

[ladym55]

50. I'm sorry your son has a teacher like this one

Sadly, I've been there and done that. And once your kid is in high school, he DOESN'T want mom getting involved. In our case, it was the GERMAN teacher who was the right-wing, obnoxious Christian nut. My son (now a religious studies/poli sci major) had the Book of Mormon from a friend--because he was interested in learning more about his friend's religion. His German teacher threw a fit and yelled at him for having the book. When my son put a "Friends don't let friends vote Republican" on his book bag she told him when he "matured" he'd "grow out of it."

She got more and more obnoxious over time--telling him he was a bad student, grading him extra hard--generally being unfair and inappropriate. But my son (like your son) wouldn't permit me to get involved. He just ended up dropping German a year earlier than he originally wanted. Fortunately she retired a year later.

In my experience, too many public school teachers were insensitive and completely unprofessional. The good news is that both my son and his sister had a few incredible teachers along the way who made the losers easier to bear.

I'm really sorry to hear that the French teacher is so offensive and insensitive and using her classroom to ram HER holiday down the throat of all of her students. Last I heard, folks in France weren't overly Christian ...

[Echo In Light]

53. We tell our daughter she doesn't have to engage in such brainwashing tactics...

Even more interesting is that when I've asked teachers/administrators WHY children are "taught" to recite this jive that they don't understand, know nothing about, and have zero inkling as to what it conveys conceptually, I've never once gotten a sound reply. The answer, of course, is obvious:

Hook em while they're young.

Fuck that. Allegiance to none.