What do people think about the fact that Chavez lost?

[Danger Mouse]

I'm coming into the discussion rather late, so I wanted to hear people's opinions in this forum.
Personally, I would never want to see a leader be able to run indefinitely, no matter how much I loved them. Giving someone that much power has the potential to be a dangerous first step. Also, even if someone were to use this power to do good, creating that precedent opens the floodgates for someone else to do evil.
Continuing viability is a potentially excellent vehicle for a dictator to ensure that their dictatorship is never truly threatened, while all the time maintaining a semblance of 'democracy.'
I'm NOT calling Chavez a dictator. I don't think he is. However, I think the changes he tried to make were overreaching, and I am glad that he lost.
What do you guys think? I've given a broad range of possible responses, to reflect various perspectives you might have. Input is also appreciated.
:hi:

[Danger Mouse]

1. Kicking my own thread for more votes.

Boot.
:kick:

[LynneSin]

2. How could ANYONE think making him leader indefinately is a good thing

Don't get me wrong - Chavez has done alot of good for Venezuela but that doesn't give him the right to be ruler-for-life.

I think once you remove the concept of a regular election then suddenly even the best of leaders can fall on corruption. I mean, who is gonna stop you if the people can't even have a say in a regular election.

If Chavez continues to do well the people will continue to re-elect him. He doesn't need a lifetime appointment

[Danger Mouse]

6. A lot of people on DU, apparently.

Power corrupts. Even good people.

[Andrushka]

10. For goodness sake...

He would, like now, have to face regular elections (albeit two, I think, years longer than now), and there would still be a recall option.

So please: can we all quit with the "lifetime appointment"/"dictator" schtick?

[Danger Mouse]

13. Note that I did NOT say lifetime appointment or dictator.

Just making sure you remember that.

[Andrushka]

28. Wasn't addressed to you, Elrond

n/t

[Danger Mouse]

33. i know

=)

[stirlingsliver]

3. Odd Options

I wish I could have voted for each of the following options:

Chavez is trying to do what's best for his country. It's a shame he lost.

The U.S. is responsible for his loss somehow. The CIA was involved.

I am unhappy with the results, but I respect the choice of the people.

I am unhappy with the results, and I believe the people were foolish to vote this way.

Sadly, though, I was only able to vote for one of those options.

Sigh.

[Danger Mouse]

5. Sorry...I just wanted to see who thought what...

i tend to make very bad polls anyway :P
too many options

[Hoof Hearted]

7. Don't be so hard on yourself! Polls with lots of options are fun and interesting! n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. IMO it shows that the people of Venezuela are smarter than most give them credit for being n/t.

[Kingofalldems]

8. Chavez allowed an election? I thought he was a dictator

He was compared to Pinochet by a *******, scratch that, DUer today. I voted #1 BTW.

[bryant69]

11. Hmmmm. What filthy word is seven letters long?

Fascist?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Kingofalldems]

15. Close--both words are interchangeable in a sentence.

[Rex]

9. It shut a lot of people up.

Their absence in threads like this one is telling.

[Danger Mouse]

14. GD has been surprisingly silent on the issue...

so what, people can't accept when things go the way they wanted?
Even the front page is quiet. No greatest thread about the topic?
Only an LBN one?

[Rex]

16. Most of them were ramping up a good 'dictator chavez' thread

thinking he was going to win. Some people NEED him to be a dictator in order to keep posting their anti-Chavez crap. On the otherhand, some people NEED him to be The Peoples Champion and were ready to defend their hero to the death! The two thought he would win and were ready with the counterarguments.

Alas, he lost.

The war never came.

Posters moved on to other topics.

[Danger Mouse]

17. Interesting point. I wonder if he had won, things would've been different on DU?

hmm

[Rex]

19. Oh goodness yes! There would be a 'war of words' going full blast right now.

The CIA memo rumors would have added fuel to the fire. Looks like a missfire or a dud IMO.

[Swamp Rat]

21. Drat!

Just think of all the fun we missed! :popcorn:... x(

[Rex]

26. I know!

It would have been a three bag threatdown! :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[BornagainDUer]

31. delete

[JackRiddler]

27. Oh really? Here's one of several "greatest" threads...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2394402&mesg_id=2394402

[hunter]

32. They're upset that we don't have to rescue them like we rescued Iraq.

Hugo Chavez needs to start building Weapons of Mass Destruction or something, so we can free his nation for the international oil, agricultural, and health care corporations.

[Hydra]

12. The margin of defeat was so slim that I think they will vote again later and it will be passed

I don't have a problem with Chavez in there for life as long as he has to win elections on a regular timetable and the people have the option of recall.

I wish we had that option here in the US- real elections and recall option.

[Clanfear]

22. It has to be under a different legislative term.

I'm not sure when that is, but under the Venezuelan constitution he will have to wait.

Baduel seems to think he will try to ram some of the proposals through legislatively.

[JackRiddler]

29. This is what will happen, no doubt piecemeal...

A whole bunch of those proposals would have probably passed, had it not all been packaged into just two bundles. Separate the end of term limitations and suddenly there's no "dictator" card for the propaganda. This would have been my critique of the thing - if you're going to have democracy, let the people vote on single, definable questions, not on ten or twenty simultaneously.

[SyntaxError]

18. The people made their choice...

They are living their, and they know what's best... I would have thought the same had it passed.


Although, I suppose he could have hired Karl Rove to advise him, and Karl suggested that he "lose" this election as to throw his detractors off... Then when the time is right, to hold the vote again, but next time around he would make it a victory.. hehehe... No, I don't think that is seriously what is going on, but I bet ya all my chucky cheese tokens that someone will try to seriously say that something like that happened... That is if they haven't already.

[Tektonik]

20. I'd like to think it was a victory for the people

Although the stories of the CIA pumping in cash to fund opposition efforts make me less comfortable with the result of the election. In a month or so I'll have a more solid opinion on this issue though after the dust settles.

[1monster]

23. How about a choice that says "The people like Chavez but are wise enough

to be wary about such sweeping changes."

Some of the changes were probably good and needed, but others put too much power in Chavez's and future Presidents' hands.

[Danger Mouse]

24. I agree that it sets a lousy precedent.

Even if Chavez used his powers only for good, what's to guarantee that in the future, he wouldn't betray Gandalf the Gray and call himself Hugo of Many Colours?
:hide: sorry for the nerdiness

[scarletwoman]

25. None of your options quite fit where I'm at, so I didn't vote. Not saying it's a bad poll,

I appreciate your effort and the intent behind it.

I've been a Chavista since even before the 2002 coup attempt -- after coming across a few fascinating articles about him in 2001 -- so I've put in my share of time and effort defending him and the Bolivarian Revolution for as long as I've been on DU.

However, by nature I'm disinclined to black and white thinking, and I found myself feeling just a bit wary about this latest referendum -- was he over-reaching? Pushing his personal vision on the Venezuelan people too hard, too fast?

I still think his fundamental intentions are generally laudable, and I absolutely want to see the Bolivarian Revolution succeed. But that's not the same thing as believing that Chavez himself is indisputably all wise and all good, and above the temptations of ego and power.

In the end, it was up the people of Venezuela. I have no doubt that there were massive efforts afoot to oppose the "yes" vote by anti-democratic forces; such as the Orwellian-named NED, the CIA, and the global corporatists, among others. And it's no secret that the elite class of Venezuela absolutely loathes Chavez.

But all these forces were factors as well in the last presidential election, as well as in the recall referendum before that. Even so, Chavez prevailed in those, mainly because the common people of Venezuela who have most benefitted from the Bolivarian Revolution simply outnumber those on the other side.

I really do think that there were just too many changes being proposed. I'd be willing to bet that if he had simply asked people to vote on doing away with presidential term limits he might have prevailed. This was just too complex and far-reaching a package, and as a result, many more people declined to vote at all than had turned out for the last two major votes.

There were some good things in the package of reforms proposed, but also a number of clearly dubious proposals. I think that many people generally favorably disposed toward Chavez simply declined to vote due the mixed nature of the package -- the opposition forces really didn't grow numerically over other votes, it was among his supporters where the numbers fell off.

I hope the Bolivarian Revolution will proceed and continue to grow as a true alternative force against neoliberalism and plutocracy. I hope Chavez himself will grow in wisdom and statesmanship.

He is still president for 5 more years. Time will tell...

sw

[BornagainDUer]

30. It appears the people have spoken. I am actually happy to see that they take

politics serious enough. It was a close call and could have gone the other way. Unlimited terms is a bit dicey, but Chavez's every move has been to help the poor. He has also decentralized power. No would be dictator would ever do that.

That being said Chavez only has one way to stay in power; that is with the people's support. Unlike puppets of the US who can go against the people's will and be propped up by the CIA Chavez HAS to have popular support.