So do they stop saying Chavez is a dictator now?

[JackRiddler]

In all their history, U.S. Americans as a nation never got to vote directly on actual policy - never. The only votes allowed here are for faces, for people who claim to represent this or that, but who once in power almost all play the game dictated by money, elite power and "crisis management."

But when the people voted on policies and constitutional changes in Venezuela, in the act of a democracy light years ahead of the U.S., up went the cry of dictatorship - from the institutions that have been conducting imperialism and war in Latin America for two centuries, from an obedient corporate media class, and from all the local dittoheads (I'm sorry).

Now that the referendum went against the reforms, now that Chavez simply conceded the vote, will the lies about Chavez and Venezuela cease?

[Deep13]

1. Having an opinion does not make me a propogandist.

But, yes, he is clearly not a dictator now.

[Mika]

2. Nope.

[Dhalgren]

3. Any leader who supports the poor against the rich will be vilified

by Americans. Because Americans hate the poor, in their own country as well as in others. I am not sure why that is true, but even a cursory look at history will prove it...

[harun]

12. Not sure why that is true?

It is because of the culture of the media and government, which serves the interests of the bourgeoisie first and foremost. Being as resource rich as we are: natural resources, educated talent, rich people, poor labor, there is still enough to go around that the middle class gets enough of a share not to notice.

[Dhalgren]

13. Because we are a capitalist nation with a democratic veneer.

Our primary stance in all things is first and last, capitalism. The poor are fine as long as they stay in their place and work as they are told to. They become the objects of hatred when they begin to want equality - economic equality. The fact that our own poor, middle, and lower classes (who should stand in solidarity with the poor in Venezuela and elsewhere) express the same kind of hatred as do our rich/owners is just a testament to the powers of modern propaganda and the power of veiled violence...

[harun]

20. I would go so far as to say the hatred shown by the poor in this country

towards poor elsewhere is more than the hatred from the rich. The poor, being the least educated has the least defense against the kool-aid. They drink it up and cheer their masters on as they oppress them.

[Selatius]

21. That will break down when people realize how little they have next to their owners.

When people become aware of this, they might wake up:

http://www.lcurve.org/

[harun]

30. I think what is starting the break down is that people

are seeing what little they have become worth even less. I think this is where a lot of Ron Paul's popularity is coming from. People see that yes, the stock market went up a bit but with the dollar tanking, their assets are actually worth much less now, because they are in dollars. Also they are stuck in 401k plans where many do not have the option to get it out of dollars even if they wanted to.

[Buzz Clik]

4. We'll simply return to calling him a third-world dictator wannabe.

[Cha]

36. Riiight..

Cause you have nothing better to do.

[Freddie Stubbs]

5. Did they stop calling Pinochet a dictator in 1988?

:shrug:

[JackRiddler]

6. Oh, yeah, Pinochet who was "elected" president in 1973?

I see, a vote by the people is equivalent to the installation of a dictator by the CIA.

Why not just save us the trip and go straight to Hitler as your comparison then?

Chavez was elected by the people, re-elected three times, and saved by the people when the U.S. attempted to impose their Pinochet on Venezuela.

[cascadiance]

10. Yes, the same mentality replaced a "dictator" Mossadegh with the more "democratic" Shah!

Nice how we engineer a move to "Democracy" everyplace, isn't it?

:eyes: :sarcasm:

[Freddie Stubbs]

60. A person is a dictator because of the actions they take while in office, not

for the way in which they come to power.

[Alexander]

11. Was Pinochet ever elected? No. Sit down.

There's a spot in the corner with a dunce cap just for you.

[Freddie Stubbs]

61. What does being elected have to do with being a dictator?

:shrug:

[Kingofalldems]

28. That's twice today you falsely compared Pinochet and Chavez

You are so obvious.

[Selatius]

29. Your comparison is intellectually dishonest and an insult to the thousands killed by Pinochet. n/t

[Solon]

56. Go back to school, and learn the difference between an unelected and elected leader. n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

62. I never said that Pinochet was elected.

Perhaps you need to go back to school and brush up on youy reading comprehension.

[Industrial Democracy]

59. Here's a hint

You lead a bloody coup, murder thousands of dissidents, smash the trade union movement, and preside over a military junta for over a decade, you don't get to be called a "democrat" just because international pressure made you concede to free elections.

Chavez tried a coup and that's about as close as he gets to Pinochet. He hasn't murdered and imprisoned thousands like Pinochet and he's been presiding as a democratically-elected leader for a long time.

[Freddie Stubbs]

63. So, the main difference between Chavez and Pinochet is success in carrying out a coup?

:shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Once a fool, always a fool.

[Cha]

37. Yeah, it's kinda

pathetic.

[BuyingThyme]

8. The only reason they call him a dictator is because he's not a dictator.

Were he actually a dictator, they'd be fine with it because he'd be in bed with Big Oil, the Bushes, etc. He'd be an ally in the war on terra. He'd be photographed holding hands with Bush.

Funny thing that.

[LittleClarkie]

38. So are you saying it's only possible to be a dictator if you're right wing?

Are there no left wing dictators in your estimation?

[eridani]

50. Not since 1989 n/t

[Solon]

55. No, but to call Chavez, a democratically elected leader who honors votes against his policies...

is nothing but foolishness. Get back to me when he overrides the people's will through fiat.

[Industrial Democracy]

57. There are left-wing dictators, sure, but Chavez doesn't fit the bill

by any objective standard. He's no more or less a dictator than any Western chief executive.

[Hydra]

9. Of course not

we want his oil- notice that the focus seems to have shifted away from Iran for the moment? I expected us to run Iran over first before we started rattling sabers over here again.

[mmonk]

14. No.

The dictator moniker is for US public consumption. All Latin American leaders not part of the US corporate making or influence are going to be labeled dictators.

[galileo3000]

15. Yes, I believe I will stop saying that.

While I did find some of his behavior to be quite outrageous, I will admit that his humility in defeat made me rethink my feelings toward the man. I wonder how many other things about my heart and mind will change today. I hope lots of them.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

16. If he does not keep bringing this up until 2012

Ill give him a pass on being a dictator. Its easy to say 'oh I lost, its the will of the people' when you have five more years to try and put yourself in place for life. Should he refrain from trying over and over again until he gets the vote he likes than hes merely another childish bully (like the one we have here) who will leave office gracefully.

[Wednesdays]

17. Those grapes really taste sour today, eh?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

24. Sweet as can be...

A man seeking to alter the constitution of his nation so he can stay in power lost, why would that be sour?

[EFerrari]

25. That's just silly. If the man were a dictator he'd be on the US payroll

like every single other Latin American dictator. It's a requirement for Latin American dictators.

God, help me.

[redqueen]

27. God bless ya for tryin.

:hug:

[Odin2005]

31. Castro is on the US payroll?

:rofl:

[LittleClarkie]

40. Some would argue that Castro is not a dictator

.

[Odin2005]

41. Those people are naive fools.

Fools that probably read too much Marxist BS in college.

[Mika]

53. Or they've been their and know what they're talking about.

Gotta love the DU Cuba "experts" who have never been there nor studied Cuba's system of government. y'know.. the ones talking about naive fools.

[LittleClarkie]

45. At the end of his speech he said "for now."

I think if he thinks it's important, he will bring it up again and again.

But I think that the fact that he let it come up for a vote, and that it then failed, rather knocks down the suggestion that he's a dictator. Not that he couldn't become one down the line if he's not careful, mind you. But I wouldn't call him one now.

Doesn't mean I always like what comes out of his mouth. A diplomat, he is not.

[EFerrari]

18. They will never stop because the propaganda has been too successful

and because Americans distrust people who are unlike them, imho.

And I will not stop kicking the ultimate let's make stuff up about Chavez thread.

[Rex]

19. Well, Chavez allowed the referendum to fail

as a dictator, he could have easily ordered it to pass. Right? Or is he a clever dictator and allows things to merely delude us into thinking he is NOT a dictater? By their not passingness?? Is he a passable potater? Or a strong man tomato? Will the US say Hugo is a communist carrot? Maybe eggplant tyrant?

[killbotfactory]

22. He's a boston baked bean of tyranny

he only lost to give us a false sense of democracy in his country! It's true! I just made it up!

[EFerrari]

23. He's the leftover fried zucchini of fascism!

I read it here.

[Rex]

33. He is the Ayatollah of Coca Cola!

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you...

Hugo Chavez Chili Chowder.

Feel the burn!!!

[LittleClarkie]

39. He's a double fake out underhanded, sneaky dictator

Them's tricky.

[redqueen]

26. Well the media said he wanted to be "President for Life!"!

Surely you can't blame people here for eating up the propaganda.

[JackRiddler]

32. kick

[redqueen]

34. Another kick for more discussion.

:kick:

[JackRiddler]

35. Well, when was there a popular vote on policy in the U.S., good or bad?

We've had essentially constitutional changes in the last years passed by nothing more than often secret decree - the end of habeas corpus, the subversion of Congressional power to declare war, suspensions of the fourth, sixth and first amendments. If you include creation of quasigovernmental agencies in secret, that goes back continuously to at least the Second World War. When was there a vote on any of this? We've also had stolen elections, and likely elections by assassination. When was the public asked?

[Leopolds Ghost]

52. If the Dem Congress asked anyone for a referendum on these changes, theyd be labeled dictatorial.

They wish to use these changes once Bush is out of office, that is why
they do not oppose their creation.

It's not a dictatorship if no one's there to witness it -- merely a
republic. Like the Roman republic.

[UTUSN]

42. Nope. Nup. Not me!1 n/t

[JackRiddler]

43. Tell me...

because I've seen your posts before. Are you an activist of the Venezuelan anti-Chavez opposition? Do you have a direct connection? I won't jump on you or make stupid accusations - as with any country and its government there are of course millions of people against Chavez for their own reasons that they understand as right and good.

[UTUSN]

44. My gut is my activism. The Venezuelans deserve better. Thank Zeus I don't live there under him.

It's their choice. If you've seen my posts before, you surely will have seen me say - over and over - that I detest authoritarianism BOTH of the Right *and* of the Left. It's really as simple as that.


Thanks for not attacking, as CHAVISTAS do, which, since you have followed the threads, you KNOW they do.

[UTUSN]

47. More

I've also said - over and over - that I LOVE my Dems of all stripes, that at the core of ALL Dems is idealism. We wouldn't be Dems if we didn't have SOME of it.


And I really believe that most DU CHAVISTAS have a deep idealism, but are probably very young and therefore intolerant of anything they THINK is compromise.


I'm a born Dem. I remember my dead mother and dead sister crying at Adlai STEVENSON's 2nd loss. Somehow this isn't good enough for CHAVISTAS. Are you getting a picture?



They laugh. They ridicule. They mock. Just like LIMBOsevic, at the other end of the spectrum. To me, CHAVEZ is just the other end of the spectrum across from Shrub. I detest them both.


I love Judi Lynn. I love Mika. Most of the others, while probably well intentioned, just lash out at other good DUers instead of lashing out at Rethugs.

[eridani]

51. Yep. White and European = good

Dark and Indio = bad.

[ecstatic]

46. One thing that's forgotten is that Venezuela WILL eventually have a new prez

who may or may not be an appropriate fit for a "no term limits" form of government. Maybe Chavez would have done the right thing, but whose to say the next guy wouldn't have become a "democratically elected" dictator (hint, rigged elections)? This is not about one man. I'm glad the vote failed.

[LittleClarkie]

48. Rather like the Republicans giving Bush too much power

and then if, say, Hillary gets in, suddenly they'll think the president has TOO much power.

There is that.

[Spazito]

49. Nope, it will not stop until a new faux bogeyman can be found....

key word being faux. He is now, for the time being anyway, the almost dictator/the wannabe dictator/ the failed dictator, etc, etc, etc.

I can't wait to see who the next distraction is going to be, we have had Iran's Ahmadinejad who, as it turns out, has little real power, and then Chavez who, as it turns out, showed class and a belief in the democratic process that one could only wish bush had, so the next faux bad guy has to be a real "prize"to take the "attention" from Chavez, on the other hand, Larry Craig seems to be a viable candidate to fill the void, lol.

[JackRiddler]

54. morning kick

[Industrial Democracy]

58. Nope, evidence to the contrary didn't stop the lying capitalist pigs before

Why do you think it would stop them now?