You know, when I used to defend Kerry, sometimes I'd be told I wasn't allowing people to criticize

[LittleClarkie]

And I'd fight hard not to do that. I understand people have the right to criticize whomever they wanted. But not without rebuttal. And I always tried to remain civil in those conversations. Wasn't always successful mind you, but that's what I was striving for. There is a difference between criticism and bashing, however, on both sides of the issue.

That's what I have in my head sometimes when I'm in some of these Chavez threads. The Chavez supporters remind me somewhat of my fellow Kerrycrats, and I suppose other supporters (Dean, Clark etc) could see themselves in these people also. But I'll let you in on a secret. If I thought one of my fellow Kerry folk was getting overzealous in their defense of John, telling people to shut up etc, I would alert on them. I try to be an equal opportunity alerter.

I didn't or at least tried not to label people haters, or say here come the anti-Kerry people, because that cuts off debate, pre-labeling people like that.

And that's why you'll mostly see me in Chavez threads saying things like "Why do you hate America. Why are you a hater." Because the discourse sometimes reminds me of how Republicans would react to criticism of Bush. And I don't think that's helpful.

Mostly that's what I'm doing. And I might throw in a criticism or two myself, if only because I don't think trusting any world leader too far is a good idea. They all benefit from having someone be a watchdog, lest their originally good intentions go bad. Is that so wrong?

[rockymountaindem]

1. What bothers me is the condescension

I've tried to remain agnostic on Chavez, mostly because I can. However, his defenders on this website often react to any criticism offered by myself or others with a very reactionary attitude that because I'm skeptical about his policies I *must* be an imperialist or a dupe for imperialist rhetoric. The former insults my political sensibilities and the latter insults my intelligence. That's why, IMHO, the Chavez threads turn into giant flamewars. It's not about policy, it's about the way Chavez' defenders make it personal, as if not admiring Chavez reflects badly on the personalities of those who doubt his sincerity. Even on rather minor issues, such as saying something like, "I think Chavez can be a bit pompous sometimes" get smacked down with responses like, "why do you automatically buy into right-wing imperialist propaganda" or "Oh, I guess we should just bomb Venezuela then". How am I supposed to come up with a cogent response to something like that? By saying, "no I'm really not an imperialist" or something? That's not going to sway anybody because I can't prove a negative.

Of course, I always swear I'm not going to post in Chavez threads anymore, but I still seem to be drawn to them. Oh well...

[LittleClarkie]

2. I was accused of being the same kind of person who would criticize undocumented worker

Not sure where that came from

[Bjorn Against]

4. It goes both ways...

Chavez is constantly being accused of being a dictator, and his supporters are accused of getting cozy with a dictator. I can't defend everything Chavez has done, but he is not a dictator. I think the reason that Chavez supporters get so defensive is that they have continually been accused of supporting a tyrant, and that is just not the case. As much as people may try to compare Chavez with Hitler there is just no comparison.

Now you may not have called Chavez a dictator yourself, but I think many Chavez supporters have heard so much over the top rhetoric from some of the others who do call him that that they have a hard time accepting any criticism because some of it has been so far over the top.

Both sides are guilty to a certain extent, and if we could just all listen to one another and not fling accusations we would be much better off.

[LittleClarkie]

7. I can understand that. And I felt that way about my support of Kerry often enough

too much knee jerk reactions. But then I suppose that happens in many threads.

[Cha]

9. It totally goes both ways..

something not mentioned in the OP. Thank you for your post, MN.

The only Chavez supporters that I've read have been informative and caring..especially about the people in South America.

[LittleClarkie]

10. Well, that was my point in comparing Kerry supporters to Chavez supporters

But some go overboard.

[The Straight Story]

3. And you remember, the only source you can trust is the one that fits your view

all other sources are evil :)

If we applied that logic to everything, we would never be able to link to any paper/source on DU because at some point they printed something bad about someone we like.

I could personally care less about the guy, good guy/bad guy I don't really know. The only thing that bothers me is the religious zeal of some of his followers.

I can criticize Hillary/Obama/et al and it does not mean I don't want them as president over an R. But dare to say one negative thing about chavez and you have a rw agenda :)

[MADem]

5. Well, gee, where you stand depends on where you sit, I guess

The tone of the threads that I take away is that CHAVEZ can do no wrong, and of COURSE here's a cite (from the fucking CUBAN press--we know how "impartial" they are) to prove how wonderful he is. They spend hours trying to claim he didn't say what he said, even when the Spanish shows us he said what he said, and then they claim it doesn't matter, because he said it at a PARTY conference, not to the general public--like Bush never addresses a small audience with a larger message.

The man's behavior is ABNORMAL. Only someone who's had a double dose of the old Koolaid thinks otherwise. He's bad news, and he's a walking talking lesson about power and corruption.

This does not mean a) That I think he should be overthrown; b) That I think America has clean hands in Latin America, or c) That I think Uribe is a great guy.

I simply believe that passage of this referendum is the death knell for VZ democracy.

[LittleClarkie]

6. We cut left wing leaders more slack than we do right wing ones

And sometimes I wonder if that's wise.

[MADem]

8. Whatchu talkin' bout WE, Willis?

I hold both sides to strict account. To do otherwise is to be less than credible.

[LittleClarkie]

12. That's how I feel too.

And it bothers me that some on the left get less scrutiny.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. That's why I don't go there...

I have personal contacts in Venezuela, but still can't figure out what's really going on. I don't trust either his defenders or detractors to give me the full story.

I want to like Chavez, but I'm not sure I like the path he's going down, and I'm not sure what the country will do when the oil profits dry up. I'm also a bit worried that at some point he might reach a tipping point where the US will team up with Columbia, Brazil, or someone else he can't buy off and try to blow him away. Poking at the bear like he does is fun for a while, until the bear gets pissed.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, if some asshole who hasn't been further than 50 miles from home or school but thinks he's a hotshot revolutionary calls me names for questioning this very questionable character, I just don't care.