Why America cannot be Norway

[ProfessorPlum]

Many of you have seen this post, Michael Moore's video mash note to the wonders of liberal Norway and its social system: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2368923#2375089

It looks like a wonderful place. Why can't America be Norway? Because of racism. This is the lasting, devastating effect of the legacy of slavery on this country.

Norway can treat its people in an enormously gentle and kind way because they see their fellow countrymen as human.

Many white people in the US lay awake at night, worried that a dollar of their tax money might go to making life better for a brown person.

It's as simple, and as sad, as that. America's original sin is the roots of its undoing.

[Teaser]

1. Also, we're not close enough to Sweden

except for Minnesota, that is.

[sweetpotato]

2. I believe

that America cannot be like Norway because of one fundamental difference:

Our (United States) culture is one of competition, while the culture of Norway is co-operative.

We compete with one another for the "goodies" in the world, while a culture like Norway shares with all of its citizens. They are in it to help one another, we are in it crush one another.

Its very simple, really.

[ProfessorPlum]

4. And why do you think that is?

Because of our racist past (and present). America has plenty of cooperative impulses, plenty of communities which help each other out. But a large proportion of our population can't bring themselves to help African Americans or Mexican Americans or whatever.

[sweetpotato]

13. You are right

I was trying to get a better description of the fundamentals rather than blame it all on racism. I think that competition vs. cooperation is probably fueled by the idea that one takes care of those like himself. Those who are different, well, they need to take care of themselves.

So, yes, I think racism probably breeds competitive behavior over cooperative behavior.

The real question is to figure out how to promote cooperative behavior.

How can this be accomplished? If I only knew. If only we, as a country, could realize that we are all in it together, and that if we work together, much can be accomplished. As long as we are fighting one another, we are kept in our places.

It is really saddening me today to realize that this is what is wrong - competition vs. cooperation.

[ProfessorPlum]

15. It is amazing that people who try to foster the cooperative spirit

as treated with such disdain in our media. They are dismissed as kooks or crazies, while greed-heads are lionized as heroes.

Crazies:

Warren Buffet
George Soros (who is a massive, exploitative capitalist, and still gets trashed for wanting a better media)
Jimmy Carter
MoveOn

Heroes:
Eric Prince
Dick Cheney
CEOs, etc.

[hfojvt]

29. I will bet that Norway is more inbred

85% of their residents are probably pure Norwegian or Scandanavian. America's "melting pot" is a little bit more standoffish. We are not one big family.

[TahitiNut]

37. The Norsemen went shopping for genes a long time ago ... and got all the good ones.

:evilgrin:

(100% Viking descendant here.)

[Greyhound]

49. Viking is a verb. n/t

[TahitiNut]

61. Well, not really. Not any more than "darling."

It's originally from a word (noun) to describe an activity but there's not been a word "to vike." Today, of course, it's deemed a noun to describe a person and not the activity. (I regard "go Viking" in much the same way I regard "go Navy.")

In my case, since I'm descended from Norwegians and lowland Scots and lowland Irish (both heavily infused with Norse genes), I regard myself (euphemistically) "100% Viking" - genetic jetsam.

:evilgrin:

[TechBear_Seattle]

3. It is more than that

First off, the disparity between rich and poor is very small when compared to the United States. Second, Norway has a large number of taxes, on income, assets and "value added" (a type of sales tax) which pay for the health care system and other social beneifts. Norwegians in general are more generous and less selfish than Americans as a whole; their modern culture supports and rewards the idea of "Help your neighbor and thereby help yourself."

In short, the largely atheist country of Norway is far more Christian than Talibangelical America.

[ProfessorPlum]

Why can't we "help our neighbor"?

Because they might be someone the KKK hates. That's the root of our problem.

If this was a homogenized society (or a mixed society that could get over its stupid racism), taxes would be high and used for the betterment of everyone.

Also, why the disparity between rich and poor? There has always been one, but it has been exacerbated by the legacy of slavery, the race riots in hundreds of cities in the early 1900s, the economic deprativity of systemic racism.

Again, the points you make are true, and traceable largely back to slavery.

[TechBear_Seattle]

9. Don't discount the "I got mine; gimme yours and go to Hell" meme

I think outright greed plays a far bigger role than racism.

[ProfessorPlum]

14. Again, I agree that this impulse is the driving force behind

our problems. But the reason there isn't a countervaling force is racism. Americans have been divided by racism, and conquered by corporate greed.

[Aristus]

28. I'd argue that Norway is secular, rather than atheistic.

Ever notice that the flag of every Scandanavian nation bears the cross? They're living the Christian ideal, while in this country, most "Christians" just pay it lip service.

[KitSileya]

42. I've got to smile at this....

"largely atheist country of Norway". You're right, of course, in the sense that most Norwegians are Christmas Christians, i.e., they only go to church at Christmas. They feel that proselytising is pushing, and that faith is an intensely personal issue. Most are atheistically agnostic in the sense that they don't really believe there is a God, but they don't want to rule it out, because there's no proof.

That aside, Norway has a state church - Lutheran-Evangelical, and the majority of Norwegians are members. Most are baptised, most are confirmed, most marry in church (tho', of course, half don't get married.) There's a Christian preamble to the education law, and one subject in elementary school is so biased in favor of Christianity that Norway lost a case in the Human Rights Court in Strasbourg about it. That subject was formed by the Christian People's Party when they were in the coalition government - the CPP were in the last two conservative coalition governments, and held the Prime Minister job. The Prime minister was a priest, at times putting us in the jolly company of Iran and Haiti as the only countries in the world with religious officials as head of government. In the last coalition, the Finance minister was an openly gay man from the Conservatives (Norway has civil unions, but not marriage, for gays, and civil unions aren't accepted in the state church - yet.)

Part of the Norwegian ideology, so we are taught in school, comes from WWII, when we were occupied by the Germans. Norwegians learned a lot about cooperation, and helping each other then, and in the years that followed. The birth of the welfare state came well before we discovered oil in 1971, so it wasn't a case of having so much money that we could afford to give everyone health care.

[nradisic]

5. America is not a nation...

Most European countries were formed as "nation" states. Most people within each nation are of the same cultural, ethnic and religious background. That same background makes their societies much more uniform, except for immigrants. The United States of America is a grouping of people from all over the world. People from different ethnic backgrounds, different upbringings, different ethnicities.....The day that we become even close to Norway will be the day we become a Beacon for the world as proof that a melting pot can work. The globe is giant melting pot. We are all in it together. We can learn how to live with each other, take care of each other, as well as the earth. A nation state is a world away from the ultimate melting pot. It takes eons to get everyone on the same page. America is the ultimate experiment and a barometer on whether the human race will survive in the long run or not...if you ask me, the jury is still out.....

[treestar]

7. IA. The US is so big, too

My tentative theory is that Norway, Sweden, England, are about the right size for such social programs - the USSR was too big, China is too big - to do it on that scale, the government becomes repressive.

The US could do more by leaving it to states, perhaps. On a state level, it might be the right size.

[ProfessorPlum]

11. I think this is a good point

But my home state, Pennsylbama, is full of white people in the rural middle who blanch at the thought of giving money to Philadelphia or Pittsburg, with their vast populations of "other".

[treestar]

19. Yeah, I think you're right, too

I live in Delaware too - it's nice and small and in theory could function as a socialist state, but then, you have that same rural/urban divide.

[CT_Progressive]

6. I totally disagree that its due to racism. Its clearly due to capitalism.

This is obvious to me.

[ProfessorPlum]

8. The capitalists are happy to exploit the legacy of slavery

and anti-immigrant hysteria in this country to benefit themselves. Of course.

But we wouldn't allow it if (a large majority of us) viewed all of our fellow countrymen as fully human.

The countries in South America have for decades been raped, pillaged, and tortured by capitalism run rampant. Yet, the social progressive movements there are still viable and fighting for their people. Why not there as well? (and I know they have slavery and racism in their past as well - American slavery's evils are deep poison).

[leftist_not_liberal]

48. Capitalists ARE the legacy of slavery.

[leftist_not_liberal]

47. You're right, but capitalism

exploits race, among other things, in order to divide and conquer the masses it exploits.

Unique in modern history is the fact that America had its slaves right here at home rather than outsourcing its slavery as the European empires did. The effect does indeed speak for itself.

Recommended reading:

Black Labor From Chattel Slavery To Wage Slavery

The scientific-technological revolution has affected and will continue to affect Black workers much more significantly than is commonly acknowledged by the capitalist press. Automation takes even more than its usual toll when oppressed people are concerned. It intensifies racist oppression and increases unemployment among Black people even when a capitalist economic recovery is said to be sharply on the rise, as in 1983-84.

But the impact of the scientific-technological revolution on Black people is not only a recent phenomenon. It has historical roots that go back to the beginnings of the slave trade.
The compass and the slave trade

The speed and momentum with which the scientific-technological revolution has taken off in recent years has tended to shrink into insignificance inventions which exercised a profound influence on developing social relations in the early stages of the capitalist system. Take the compass, which is regarded today as a basic direction-finding device in navigation. It is not a capitalist invention. It is said to have been discovered as early as the year 1100 in China, and may have also been discovered independently in Europe somewhat later; it was used by Arab sailors in the early 13th century.

Its development and perfection over the years became indispensable to world trade. While not invented in a period of capitalist development, the compass and other navigational instrumentation were appropriated from earlier modes of production by capitalist shipping companies at the very crest of the period of colonization, what is called the "age of discovery." It gave a tremendous impulse to world trade and commerce.

But what was the content of this trade? Why is it important in relation to our study here? Because as trade became a world phenomenon, it was essentially an international trade of slaves.
http://www.workers.org/marcy/cd/samtech/hitkhtml/chap5.htm

[mainer]

10. Norway is also oil-rich and has resources

They have plenty of money with which to improve the quality of life of their inhabitants.

[ProfessorPlum]

12. While the US is such a poor place

Have you seen our defense budget lately?

[TahitiNut]

38. Norway's "resources" have always been offshore ... and hard to get.

Strangely, the "politics of scarcity" has a stranglehold in the Land of Plenty ... and the "politics of abundance" thrives in one of the most resource-poor and hostile climate countries on earth.

Go figure.

[Blue_Tires]

16. ttt

[Ezlivin]

17. How many Wal-Marts does Norway have?

Are the streets filled with Hummers and other SUVs?

Does any restaurant sell a $25,000 dessert?

How many television shows focus on the lives of the wealthy or on unimaginably expensive vacation homes?

Don't we have it so good here?

(I'm too fucking cynical to post the sarcasm thingie here.)

[Beerboy]

18. Norway simply must import more brown people

it'll be proof positive whites are naturally hateful racists, regardless of history, language, culture, or geographic location.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. It actually has some brown people: it has granted political asylum to

people from all over.

[rug]

21. What about the Lapps?

[leftofthedial]

22. well, at least we don't have to eat that vile fish crap

they call food

[waldnorm]

25. Lutefisk

is only served during Winter. Obviously, you haven't had Bergen Fish Soup (Yum!)

[Raine]

26. I love lefse but

when my grandparents fixed lutefisk I would sit outside on the porch cause the smell alone was so vile. x( :puke:

[TahitiNut]

40. Yup. Same with me. The smell is horrible ... and it tastes like wallpaper paste.

:puke:

[JVS]

57. That's funny. Lutefisk preparation happens on the porch at my house

[TahitiNut]

39. Uffda! It's lutefisk "season" right now - and we have some in the freezer.

If and when my mother prepares it, I'm gonna be outdoors ... no matter how cold and snowy it is.

[JVS]

58. But if you don't eat your Lutefisk, how are you going to drink your Akavit

[TahitiNut]

62. When I drank, I preferred Ouzo (Greek) and Ricard Pastis (French) to Akevitt.

... and lutefisk would only be an excuse to drink Fernet-Branca, anyway. :evilgrin:

[11 Bravo]

23. Because it's thousands of miles away from Scandinavia?

[aikoaiko]

24. I'd settle for America being a lot like Vermont.

[Singular73]

Oh Please

How multicultural is Norway?

Its an idiotic comparison.

[Singular73]

27. Oh Please

How multicultural is Norway?

Its an idiotic comparison.

[BlueEyedSon]

30. No. classism has replaced racism.

[Generic Brad]

31. America has an "us against them" mentality

To my dying day I will never understand that mindset.

[struggle4progress]

32. It's because we chopped all our fjords down. Or they died of Dutch Elm disease. Something like that.

I remember learning about it in high school history

[KingFlorez]

33. I disagree

I don't think it's all about race, because there are a lot of people of all races who lay awake at night, worried that a dollar of their tax money might go to making better for anyone who is poor. Those people believe that a social safety net is a terrible, scary idea because it might actually help some people in a lower income bracket than them

[Truthiness Inspector]

34. We are not Norway

We have a constitution that upholds human rights, even if we "disgree" with the "culture." I am proud to be an American. Unless you want to explain how being a doormat is good.

[The River]

35. No Truthiness Here

Being a doormat mat means that you get walked over
and stepped on all the time. The Norwegians don't
allow their fellow citizens to be treated like doormats.
HMO's can't deny care, corporations are held in check
their food supply is vigorously protected.
They are enlightened enough now, having been through 5x times our history (and experience),
to know that investing a little more in their fellow citizens, by way of taxes,
makes their democracy, and quality of life, the envy of many.
I wish my great grandparents had never left.

You better look again at just who is getting stepped on and walked all
over by their corporations and government.
Got mud?

[me b zola]

66. I'm sick of your stupid avitar

...quite frankly I wish that Skinner would get rid of it.

[DFW]

36. The reason is simple

Too few people in America speak Norwegian.
(Kan du snakke norsk?)

On edit--I tested this that last time I was in Dallas with my friend, Gunnar.
Sure enough, every time we asked that question, we got told, "hey, you dumb
foreigners, speak English or shut up!"

Gunnar turned to me and said, "DFW, I don't think we're in Oslo any more."

[Lautremont]

41. Is it true that in Norway, the character of Goofy is named "Longuebones"?

[The2ndWheel]

43. Norway has a few million people

Add together a couple major cities from the US(other than NY, which would be something like double that of Norway), and you get the total population of Norway. It's not about racism in this case. It's about physical limits.

If you broke the US up into 50 individual countries, you could do what European countries does. Europe will have more problems in the future because the EU is the same type of concentration as the US is. More integration, more immigration because of Europe's aging population, it will cause more problems.

[Snarkturian Clone]

52. Thank you

for being smart. I wish other Duers could do math.

[ileus]

44. and we don’t have a clairvoyant princess.

[Deja Q]

45. What do you call "offshoring"?

We ARE pulling people in those "brown people" countries out of poverty, regardless of anything else I have to say regarding offshoring. Is that racism too?

[Captain Angry]

46. Reducing poverty via offshoring is not the goal.

And it's actually pissing off large companies. I was in a meeting where moving operations to Costa Rica was being hailed as a great idea because "We don't want another Bangalore." They didn't say that because the Indians couldn't do their job, it was because competition led the people to expect a better wage or they'd jump to the next company. Kind of like what happened here in Silicon Valley.

This is just a milestone.

The project is not to reduce costs through cheaper labor. It is to reduce the need for labor entirely.

As an example:

If you have great support, it's expensive and gets used.
If you have crap support, it's cheap and reduces usage by frustrated customers who go online for help.
Once enough people stop calling, you can charge for phone support at the crap level, and cut even further.

This is all a bunch of steps towards the point when tech support can be nearly eliminated via software. The rest of tech support will go through online step-by-step fix it yourself systems.

[Greyhound]

64. This is my business and it appears that your company is just behind mine.

What we found was that, in the short term, what you say is true, but here's the catch, in a very few short years it catches up to you and strengthens your competition while crippling you. Just as Dell, a company that was built on superior customer service, discovered when they were taken over by the MBA ignoramuses, when you piss off your customers they not only stop being customers, but they go out of their way and make damn sure that everybody that will listen to them for 5 minutes learns what a shitty company you are.

We are currently spending several hundred million dollars (it will probably end up costing a couple of billion when all is said and done) trying to counter the reputation we gained in 6 short years of inept, short-sighted, well publicized, leadership that trashed a world class customer service division to pump share valuations. We're well into the first year of attempting to rebuild some semblance of the organization we had and it has already cost all that we gained from trashing it and are looking at spending 2 or 3 times as much to get back to zero. Fucking brilliant, huh?

The attitude you've put out here only works if you are the only game in town (like M$), if not, I hope you and your co-workers are lining up your prospects, the "transition" is a motherfucker.

[Captain Angry]

65. My prospects were in line last year. Which is good. Since they laid me off.

I worked there for 11 years, and I was expensive. So they whacked me, sent the job to India for 6 months. At the end of the 6 months, they found that the very nice people that got the job just weren't ever going to be able to do it. Because I had 15 years of experience, and they only had 3 months.

Didn't work out so well for the customers, but they'll keep buying the stuff, so why fix it. They brought the job back to the states, but gave it to somebody with 2 years of experience. That will last until the next cost cutting round, and it will head back overseas again.

Love the tech industry! Don't miss it at all.

[Greyhound]

50. Sorry "professor" but you are wrong.

The root cause of our national mental illness isn't racism, for racism is simply another in a long list of symptoms of the disease. It is what is now known as "The American Dream", which has nothing to do with the true American dream which was simply a dream of liberty, the idea that each of us must waste our lives in a pointless game of eternal acquisition.

"He who dies with the most toys has utterly wasted his life and inflicted incalculable misery on the rest of the world" - Greyhound1966

[Withywindle]

51. Every wealthy nation goes through a selfish, ruthless, "I've got mine" imperialist phase...

..the Norwegians got theirs out of the way 1100 years ago. They're a million times more mature than we are.

[Tinksrival]

53. I like your explaination best!

You have to go WAAAY back to see the big picture. It's interesting subject though!

[JVS]

55. But 1100 years ago Norway was poor as shit

[Withywindle]

59. Until they got so very good at raiding!

And making deals as far away as Byzantium and Persia. :D

[JVS]

60. that still wasn't horribly lucrative.

If you have people moving to iceland, you're dirt ass poor

[JVS]

54. Until the discovery of North Sea oil, Norway wasn't rich

Without the oil they wouldn't be able to fund the whole shebang

[Dorian Gray]

56. I have a friend who has married a Norweigan and moved to Oslo in the last year.

She loves it. She thinks it's a fantastic, albeit COLD, place. But she says that as more and more non-white Europeans are moving into Oslo, incidents of racism are increasing.

[Jackpine Radical]

63. All the truly crazy Scandinavians went out a-viking a thousand years ago

and never came home. They settled in Normandy, Iceland, England, Ireland, and even Greenland, thereby much improving the gene pool in the home ountries. America, unfortunately, mostly got settled by the far-flung descendants of the Vikings.

That's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it.