Is it always illegal to kill a woman?

[WilliamPitt]

1953:



1953:



1961:



1970:



...from the new book, "You Mean A Woman Can Open It?: The Woman's Place In The Classic Age Of Advertising."

More here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=496827&in_page_id=1879&in_a_source=

So anyway, the next time the argument comes up about why the word "bitch" isn't appropriate on DU, or accusations of women here being "too PC" or "too sensitive" come along, remember these.

These were standard advertising gambits once, and were part of the mindset that had to be overcome and defeated for women to begin to gain a measure of equality in society.

And there are plenty of women here who remember it all too well.

No, this post is aimed at or reacting to nothing specific that is currently posted on DU (so far as I know). But with a woman serving as Speaker, as well as a woman running for president, it is never a bad reminder to drop in now and again.

IMHO.

:toast:

[smokey nj]

1. Thank you, Will.

[havocmom]

2. Second that

And, thank you, to momma of Will.

[calimary]

170. Third that!

Actually, looks like it'd be 103rd that, judging from the length of this thread.

Deservedly so.

It just astounds me how threatened some segments of the population still are by women. Hell, by ANYBODY who isn't straight out of the same cookie-cutter from which they came. And it astounds me how a brain-trust the size of over half the human population can still be so suppressed.

[donsu]

3. thank you

nt

[sinkingfeeling]

4. Don't remember the first two, but sure remember the days. Thanks.

[donsu]

5. if you want to see how healthy and alive this kind of crap is watch Divorce Court

constantly, they have divorcing couples where the husband fully and proudly proclaim that the man is supreme in marriage and the wife is to do his bidding.

watch Divorce Court for a wk. and know your fellow american.

[Clark2008]

90. And they don't understand why they're getting a divorce?

Geesch... my husband cleans poopy diapers and I think that's sexy!

[lumberjack_jeff]

6. We live in enlightened times?

http://www.brandweek.com/bw/magazine/features/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003670964
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article2167748.ece
http://www.mensmovieguide.com/NewsArticles5.htm

[yodermon]

7. Holy Shit!

what does that first one even mean?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. It's like "Does Wayne Brady have to choke a bitch?"

Or something.

Apparently.

I don't know.

[poverlay]

163. OMG ... funniest ... Chapelle ... skit ... ever! n/t

[Lars39]

9. She may have bought the machine without consulting him.

[NewJeffCT]

22. I know - I don't get it?

not at all.

[WilliamPitt]

32. She won't use it, won't listen to an explanation of how to use it.

It's just too hard for her to understand.

Poor guy's just trying to run an office.

:freak:

[yodermon]

73. Ah. Ok. I think.

I fail to see how that message, even in 1953, would be promoting Pitney Bowes.
At "least" the other 3 fall into the "so easy even a woman" category.
This falls into the "kill all bitches who won't use our product! Buy Pitney Bowes!" category.

:freak: indeed.

[Richard Steele]

96. Thank you. I wasn't "getting" that one either. nm

[colorado_ufo]

131. Oh. My. Heaven.

Thank you. Now I get it, but I'm sorry that I do!

[LoZoccolo]

162. Why would they want to emphasize that it's too hard to use?

I assume they were trying to sell them.

[WilliamPitt]

176. ...to the men who owned the businesses.

[Xithras]

83. The word "kill" has (or used to have) different meanings.

I'm not sure which one was being referenced here.

First, "kill" used to be slang for firing someone. In the context of this ad, it could mean that the woman was getting fired and replaced with a machine.

The word "kill" also used to mean making a strong impression. Think "Dressed to kill" or a comedian "killing" his audience during a hilarious show, both terms that are still somewhat used today. The word kill in that instance doesn't mean taking a life, but making a strong impact and getting peoples attention.

The first ad is a pun based on an old bit of slang.

[gollygee]

101. I don't think so

There's only one kind of killing that is illegal.

[Xithras]

104. It's a double entendre. One of the oldest forms of satirical humor.

Yes, it is illegal to kill someone if a life is ended, but the ad is asking whether it's "always illegal to kill a woman". In the case of the idiomic use of the word kill, the answer would be no. The ad is having fun with the fact that the word has multiple different meanings.

Depending on which use of kill they were referring to, it was referencing either firing her or making a huge impression on her. My opinion tends toward the latter, but who knows.

[gollygee]

108. If it's a double entendre, then the writer meant for us to consider

both meanings. Including the violent kind of killing. Which still makes that ad refer to violence against women.

[Xithras]

110. Of course

My original post was in response to a question by someone who didn't understand the meaning at all. Since that particular use of the word "kill" has faded over the past half century, I was just illuminating the double entendre for those who don't read a lot from that period.

[GMFORD]

158. If that's the case it's a bad pun.

It was never illegal in that sense. And the graphic doesn't look like he has her attention. Maybe you had to be there at the time the ad was done for it to be amusing.

[gollygee]

10. Thank you

Lord knows people don't listen to women when we complain about this kind of thing. We just "don't have a sense of humor."

[Staph]

11. K&R! And my thanks as well.

About ten years ago, I went through a company diversity training seminar, a two-day session talking about the problems of different groups and how to be more sensitive and accepting of differences.

We saw presentations and had discussions about the problems faced by blacks, gays, hispanics, veterans, the handicapped. Everything was well-handled and we talked face to face about some very sensitive issues. Until the subject was women.

The men in the group couldn't and wouldn't stop making jokes, about dumb blondes, about women drivers, about the bimbo of the month. Finally, the facilitator told them to shut up, that they hadn't treated any of the other groups in such a rude way. It didn't matter. The men in the group (primarily in their twenties and thirties) just didn't get it.

The way that Hillary is treated, by the media and by the folks here on DU, doesn't surprise me in the least. She's not my favorite candidate, but the way that she is treated has only a little to do with her policies and her past, and a whole lot to do with her lack of a Y chromosome.





Now, flame away!

[raccoon]

14. Thanks for your post.

"The men in the group couldn't and wouldn't stop making jokes,"

They COULD have, but wouldn't.


" The men in the group (primarily in their twenties and thirties) just didn't get it."

They just didn't want to get it.

K&R, Will.

[femrap]

27. Staph...

I agree with you 100%. What really irks me is that some guys (and gals) refuse to question their attitudes about women. It's like talking to a rightwing religious kook...they are all WILLFULLY IGNORANT.

A bit of introspection never hurt anyone!

And Will...good for you!

[Romulox]

12. My wife asks me to open things all the time.

The sexist! :wow:

[NashVegas]

48. And You Know Why She Does That?

To make you feel useful :)

[Romulox]

66. I suspect that it works both ways--she's pretends she could do it if she "wanted" to,

and I pretend I'm indispensable!

Anyway, great point! :)

[FloridaJudy]

77. She hasn't figured out

The slip-the-butter-knife-under-the-rim-to-break-the-seal trick? Or bought one of those nifty grippers?

I did used to ask my son to change light bulbs all the time, but that's a height issue, not a gender one. If I had a six-foot-tall daughter, I'd have asked her to do the same. Damn. Now that he's moved out, I'm going to have to buy a ladder. Fortunately, I've changed to CFBs, so the problem doesn't arise as often.

[Romulox]

81. I suspect she could figure out how to take out the trash or mow the lawn too, if she "wanted" to. nt

[Jamastiene]

143. That sounds like an opportunity to buy a great yet cheap gadget.

They make rubber grippers to open jars and things. They work too. I use them every time I open jars. There are no men in the household to "goto" for that. :p

[AlCzervik]

13. omg that last ad for the mini automatic? I had that experience in real life.

i really, really wanted a vw convertible beetle so i go to the local dealer and look around, now i already did a lot od research so i knew just about everything there was to know about the car i just needed the dealer to get me the one i wanted ok? So i'm looking around the lot when the sales guy comes out and goes through the usual bs with me when i say "I have 3 color choices ok, Red, Black or green but whatever color must have a manual transmission ok, no manual, no sale" so he looks at me and he says "Well we don't sell manual transmissions to women" ok i know what he was trying to say but it came out wrong so i decided i'd have a little fun with him, long story i did not buy a car from them, yes Elk Grove/Lasher VW i'm talking to you. I went to a dealer in Sacramento and got exactly what i wanted.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. I had a similar experience --

Was shopping for a car, saw one I liked that had manual transmission (which I was entirely comfortable with, having driven one for several years). Took the car out for a test drive with the salesman, and when we got back he said, "You handled that stick shift really well -- for a girl."

The deal was OFF, right then and there.

This was about 25 years ago, and maybe car salesmen are a little more enlightened now, but I wouldn't count on it.

[AlCzervik]

19. this guy wasn't, "Why do you want a manual?" "How about you get me what i asked for?"

and i was paying cash.

[Johnny Noshoes]

107. When you're trying to sell something

the only things that should count are does the customer have the price of the product in their pocket and are they eager to buy. What shouldn't count is the color of their skin, their gender/sexual orientation, or their politics.

[juajen]

115. I know a 100lb smart little woman who sells cadillacs by the

dozen. Of course, Cadillacs are sold a tad differently than most cars. For instance, she doesn't work nights or weekends, her leads are totally protected and she drives a new, fully gassed Cadillac all the time. She makes no "great" deals, as their prices are set in stone. She makes a very good living. BTW, she is one of three "sales representatives." Not a crowded field. She knows everything about every car there and nothing is too big for her to drive. What a girl, or, I think, I should say woman, what a woman! When she was hired, she was the first woman ever to sell cars at that dealership. So, some things do change.

[progressoid]

20. "Well we don't sell manual transmissions to women"

WTF?

[AlCzervik]

26. i think what he meant to say was "We don't sell 'many' manual transmissions to women" i think

which may or may not be true but who cares right? like i need to know what type of cars he's selling to different people, like has has anything at all to do with what i'm buying, i was really put off by the whole thing and when i called my husband and told him he said "Uh-oh, bad move". That was the other thing, i went to the dealer my self, i'm the one who does the negotiating on vehicles, my husband loves looking but hates doing the dealing so i do it and i've gotten pretty good at over the past 20 years.

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. I hear similar stories often. I don't get it.

There's only one reason I wouldn't buy a car or a house (or whatever) from someone. Their price was too high.

"Men don't buy china? Whatever. How much?"

I guess I'm not as attuned to nuance.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. You don't get it because you're a man.

A man telling women what should and shouldn't offend them is like whites telling blacks what should and shouldn't offend them. You haven't experienced the patronizing attitude many man have toward women.

Two examples that occurred when I was in my forties:

I once had a man come out to give me an estimate for taking down about 100 pine trees on my land. He called me "honey" and that's when he lost the job.

After a root canal, a dentist, who was at least ten years my junior, patted my arm and said "You did good, sweetie." It was the first and last time I set foot in his office.

[gollygee]

46. An eye doctor asked me if I worked and whether I worked full time

I told him I did work full time and I was an executive assistant, and then he asked if I was married and I said yes. He said, "OK so you're a secretary and a housewife." That was so bizarre I wasn't sure how to respond. My husband was working fewer hours than I was at the time so he was doing almost all the cooking and cleaning. But being married, even with a full-time job, made me a "housewife".

[Iris]

144. Zogby asks EVERY timem on his polls.

It makes me want to scream.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. For me, a transaction is business.

I wouldn't use the logger if his price was too high. I wouldn't continue to hire the dentist if his work was questionable.

I've been called honey by lots of women in the business world (especially retail).

I guess I should have been insulted.

"Whatever. How much?"

[Hoof Hearted]

142. Yes, but of course you understood the "honey" was never meant to demean you

and that makes your experience different from ours, but really, you already knew that.

[Mr_Monday]

151. That was very kind of you.

Yes, yes, I know, male privilege defaults my understanding of anything related to your experience.

[NashVegas]

53. Nope, Ya Don't

When man says, "you ____ well for a woman," what she hears is, "you know, I really expected you to not know what you're doing, because you're a woman."

She may also go back into her memories and hear the echo of "you can't, you're a girl."

You betcha it's upsetting.

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. And when I hear "We don't have many dads who care enough to volunteer at school"

I say thanks.

[GMFORD]

159. Maybe this will help you understand.

Think back to the time when men weren't allowed to vote because they were thought to ill-informed to make a decision.
Think back to the times when men were considered the property of their wives and it was okay for them to be beaten if they 'deserved' it.
Think back to the times when a man could not work or have money of his own and if his wife died or left him he became a pauper.

I haven't mentioned stoning or the scarlet letter or the pillory yet but I think you get my drift. Women are very touchy about being respected.

How would it feel if you overheard your boss telling a business associate to talk to 'my boy', meaning you about drawing up a contract? Being called 'my girl' at the office was common practice not all that long ago.

[AlCzervik]

54. i had 0 confidence in this sales man, all he had to do was get me the car

it was really that simple but instead he wasted time trying to get me to buy an automatic because thats what was on the lot. I had my checkbook and he should have just called the other dealer and had it transferred. The dealer i bought it from got me the car without the bullshit.

[noamnety]

106. Thank goodness you are here

to help us see that sexism against women isn't real and doesn't harm women. It's good to be reminded sometimes that men are as much, if not more, oppressed in our society. We can see that in rape statistics, in pay, in discriminatory job hiring practices, in the way men get fired when their spouses get pregnant, and in the way women continue to hold most positions of power in this country.

I especially appreciate your position that we should financially support the people who are bigoted against us by giving them our business.

Gosh it sure is great to get that sort of insight here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

113. Thank you. I'm happy to please.

Good to see that you're seeing the light.

[Romulox]

44. As a stick driver, I can tell you that it's not easy for a man to get a manual trans either...

The dealer sounds like a dolt, but I can tell you that, as a male customer, I have encountered a great deal of resistance in having dealers locate manual transmission equipped cars for me, and I, too, have simply left one dealer and worked with another because of lack of cooperation.

For one thing, only a tiny percentage of new cars are equipped with manual transmissions. This is because consumers overwhelmingly prefer autos. Even in sports cars.

For another, dealers want to sell you cars that they have on their lots. Go in with a man and observe as he asks for the turbo-diesel option, or some other obscure package--invariably, the dealer will attempt to up-sell the person to a vehicle already on the lot.

[Clark2008]

92. LMAO!!! I so understand that story!!

I only drive cars with manual trannies. I love sports cars and think it should be illegal (if not immoral) for a sports car to be an automatic.

Anyway, when I shopped around and found the Mustang I wanted online, I went straight to CarMax to purchase it. The sales guy said, "Well, you know, this is a manual." To which I replied, "Yes, I know - that's why I want it." He actually thought that was great and complimented me on my choice of cars (sans automatic transmission).

Hubby, on the other hand, cannot drive a manual transmission. Needless to say, I get to drive his Beemer and my Stang, but he can't drive my baby. :)

[knitter4democracy]

93. Yup. I've had the sexist car salesman. Didn't buy from him.

I needed a new car (tranny was going on my Outback), so I went to the Ford dealer Hubby had gotten such a good deal from. I got this older gentleman who spent half the day trying to sell me a car. On the way to their other lot to see the one that sounded like the one I was looking for, all he talked about was paint/interior colors, kid-friendly features, and whenever I asked specifics, he'd change the subject. Hubby drove on the way back, and all the guy talked about was engine specs. Guess who knows more about cars in our marriage. :eyes:

Then, when we started talking specifics, he told me he'd have to wait for my husband to get started on talking money. I got up and left. It was the last straw. I went to the dealer closest to us, got a great salesman, raised a stink, got the perfect car for less money, and they don't talk down to me there. Heck, the head of the shop is a woman, which is just awesome to see. :)

[Matariki]

15. Not that long ago either...

I remember classified ads in the paper listed as 'Jobs for men' & 'Jobs for women'

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

23. I remember that, too.

Help Wanted - Men and Help Wanted - Women.

And the "women's" jobs were all secretaries, sales clerks, maids and housekeepers.

[Vanje]

117. And the "Help wanted-Women" jobs paid less than half

...what the "help wanted- Men" jobs paid.

[insanad]

33. This is just a "Hobby"

I'm a Draftsperson/Designer and work with AutoCAD and other drafting programs. This industry has been mostly dominated by men in the engineering and architectural fields. Many of them are very good at what they do and are innovative and thourogh. To be a woman in this field is an annomoly and often I get the look of fear and suspicion as well as goofy discomfort from guys who just aren't accustomed to seeing a woman in "Their" field.

The female insight that is brought into the architectural designs, especially residential is part of why homes now have useful kitchens and functional bathrooms. The homes built prior to 1980 often had such useless tiny dysfunctional kitchens that they are the first thing to go in a remodel.

I lost count of the contractors, subs, and clients that are surprised at any level of intelligence or skill in a woman designer. One arrogant jackass who kept trying to dicker down my fee suggested that my career was "Just a hobby" so I didn't deserve a fair price. This guy was a Surgeon with a typical trophy wife who just bobbled her head in agreement to everything he said, thereby keeping her "Job". I doubled my price and suddenly my work was worthwhile.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. Me too. Your work is good because you are skilled, not because of your gender. n/t

[Kajsa]

37. Good for you, insanad!

My mom, ( now retired) was a draftsperson/designer for many years.

She started out back in 60's.

At the time, she was the ONLY woman in her department.
She had to work twice as hard to prove she could do the job.

I hear what you're saying about dysfunctional kitchens.

;-)

[insanad]

111. 1/2 price, 1/2 respect, 1/2 promotions, 200% more work

Even with the inequities I still love the work. I've often had to cut my price, grovel, and work twice as hard as any guy in the field to get contractors and clients to believe I could do the work, and then once they saw the designs couldn't imagine a guy having the same kind of insight and perspective into the design and flow of their homes. It's such a tough battle but I'll always love designing and the proudest moments for me are when someone comes up years later and mentions how much they love their house because it fits their life and the things they use. That's far better than forcing someone to accept "THE DESIGNERS" taste or vision for something that doesn't reflect useful practicality. In 10 years these homes will still be useful and attractive.

[Kajsa]

165. That's the trademark of a well designed

home. Function should never be sacrificed for the " trend du jour".

You are an excellent designer!

:hi:

[hedgehog]

57. I've contended for years that if the automobile companies had

any women on staff, there would be a place to put our purses when we get in the car. I don't need 23 cup holders, I need a handy place to set my purse while I'm driving!

[insanad]

109. Boy Howdy!! and they'd function for car seats and seat belts too!!

I've nearly been decapitated by the stupid seat belt designs and when they're not cutting my throat, they're smashing my boobies. That seems like the easiest thing to revise but over and over I see these things made for 9'tall men with concave chests. I think some designers get all caught up in being innovative that the forget to just be practical. Form ALWAYS should follow function, then it's a thing of beauty because it actually works.

[Dora]

16. K&R. nt

[tridim]

17. I'll probably get slapped, but that Mini advert made me laugh.

:)

[IronLionZion]

21. Not in some of our Mideast allies

it's perfectly peachy to beat, rape, and murder women in some parts of the world. In Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, being raped is a crime. Extreme conservatism at its worst.

Never forget that DUers are with you, Freepers are against you. Which party has a woman leader in the house? Which party has a woman frontrunner for president?

[RB TexLa]

24. In our house my wife knows her place in the kitchen is out of my damn way. n/t

[HuffleClaw]

25. "you've come a long way baby!"

wasn't there an ad that went something like 'four of five doctors recommend camels' some years back? and i'm reminded of a madison avenue phrase from not so long ago, 'two C's in a K'. the 'K' was a kitchen so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the 'C' refers to.

[Romulox]

30. "you've come a long way..." was a cigarette ad, IIRC. Equal access to emphysema, baby!

Just a reminder that there is no such thing as a "feminist" product or commercial!

[Jamastiene]

146. Virginia Slims was the cigarette. n/t

[opiate69]

31. Hmm.. couldn't possibly be "Cooks", could it?

Naw.. of course not.. what would cooks be doing in a kitchen after all? :eyes:

[fishwax]

36. I'm not sure whether you're serious or not, but no, it didn't stand for cooks

It was about a style of ad that placed two women in a kitchen to sell a product, and the C did not stand for cooks ...

[opiate69]

42. Yes, I'm serious..

is there anywhere that I can research this further? Because I've never heard of this before.

[fishwax]

47. google has a few results

including a wikipedia entry.

[opiate69]

51. Oh, well.. if it's on Wikipedia, it must be true then.

:rofl:

Seriouly though, it does seem that there may be something to this, but you have to admit, that anybody not familiar with this marketing "stategy" (for want of a better phrase) would probably respond to the original post similar to how I did.

[fishwax]

58. what exactly did you expect? A marketing textbook with a chapter on it?

Seriouly though, it does seem that there may be something to this, but you have to admit, that anybody not familiar with this marketing "stategy" (for want of a better phrase) would probably respond to the original post similar to how I did.

No, not really. Why? :shrug:

[opiate69]

61. well, a source that can't be modified by any yahoo with an agenda would be a good place to start.

"and i'm reminded of a madison avenue phrase from not so long ago, 'two C's in a K'. the 'K' was a kitchen so it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the 'C' refers to."

That's all the original post I replied to said.. Now, having no previous knowledge of the phrase, when I think of "things in a kitchen that start with the lettr 'C'," I think "Cook", "Chef", "Cutlery", Cucumbers", etc.. "cunt" isn't anywhere on my list. So, while it may bot take a rocket scientist ot figure out what the 'C' refers to, it does probably take someone who is aware of this phrase to figure it out.

[fishwax]

72. check your local library, then

:shrug: You asked for a place you could learn more about it. I suggested google and even threw in the wikipedia link as a courtesy, which you mocked. And that was very hurtful. (just kidding :hi:)

Now, having no previous knowledge of the phrase, when I think of "things in a kitchen that start with the lettr 'C'," I think "Cook", "Chef", "Cutlery", Cucumbers", etc.. "cunt" isn't anywhere on my list. So, while it may bot take a rocket scientist ot figure out what the 'C' refers to, it does probably take someone who is aware of this phrase to figure it out.

I don't think someone has to be aware of the phrase in order to figure out what the C stands for; instead, one just has to be aware of sexism and the low regard that madison avenue might have for women (which is the subject of the thread, after all :))

But the sarcastic eye roll smiley in your response suggests that you did figure it out. Did you not guess what the C word actually was until reading the wikipedia page? And if that's the case, why not ask what it was first, instead of simply dismissing the possibility that it could be anything other than benign?

Perhaps I interpreted your post wrong, but it certainly appeared that you were taking issue with the poster's interpretation of "C" (rather than taking issue with her suggestion that the "C" was easy to figure out), the implication being that she was overreacting to the slang and finding sexism where none really existed.

[opiate69]

75. Well, let me see if I can boil it down...

I guess I'm just operating on the assumption that we all have different sensitivity levels to sexism (and racism, etc etc.. ), and that it seems some people do indeed seek to find sexism in places where it really doesn't exist. Caveat: This in no way is intended to imply that sexism doesn't exist. Only that, just as there are people who wouldn't recognize sexism if it's was punching them in the face, the other end of the spectrum also exists. So, yes, I'd say your interpretation of my interpretation was right. I put the rolleyes in my original post because, while the poster didn't come out and say what the 'C' stood for, it was very easily inferred. Whereas, with the marketing canard, it's not.
And, sorry about hurting your feelings. ;)

[fishwax]

86. sounds like a resonable synopsis--i think you boiled it down well

:hi:

[opiate69]

88. Cool cool, then..

Hard for me to tell if I'm making much sense since I'm home sick today and doped up on flu medicine.. it's probably about as bad as posting after a few handfuls of whiskey-cokes.

[noamnety]

160. the wiki link is sourced

Here's one of the references in it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv_and_radio/story/0,,183241,00.html

[Matariki]

74. Interesting - hadn't heard that one. But I hear Madison Ave calls children 'mice'. n/t

[fishwax]

85. and people in focus groups are "peasants under glass" n/t

[saracat]

28. which is why hiding behind your husband is inappropriate for a Feminist, as is

hiding a feminist to a different standard of credibility as a candidate or making exceptions for gender. JMHO. BTW, is that Goldie Hawn in the mini ad?

[DemBones DemBones]

29. I remember being given a booklet of advice for girls,

which included the gem that a girl should not let a boy know she could do anything more mechanical than break an egg and separate yolk from white or put Pop-It beads together. ( Remember Pop-It beads, you older DUers? )

That kind of destroyed my trust in everything else the booklet said.

[Matariki]

76. My mom drilled it into me that I always had to 'let boys win'

or I'd never get married. Come to think of it, I'm not married, so maybe she was right, LOL.

It seemed she was suggesting that men had fragile egos and women had to pretend to be weaker or inferior to placate those egos. Really, it was probably more disrespectful to men than to her own self respect.

[Clark2008]

95. Many of them do.

Luckily, my husband just comes right out and admits it.

I get the "I need my ego stroked" lecture about once every six months.

I'm not much of an ego-stroker, to be honest. I stroke other things, but not egos. ;)

[Celebration]

171. I wrote a poem on that subject once

Though, technically, my mother didn't say that. I was into writing silly poems in my teens, and I was always beating guys in ping pong and tennis--

"My mother told me once that it was a sin
To play games and sports against boys and then not let them win
But I don't think that would seem very honest
Though I do think that when a girl beats a boy she should be very modest."

Haha. Being modest was my personality anyway. So was trying to WIN!! I did get married, and, yes, always beat him in tennis and ping pong. He can certainly outrun me though.

[Grateful for Hope]

84. When I was in high school

I was president of our math club for a while. One day, a photographer came to take pictures for our year book, and, as usual, all the clubs were represented. The picture he took was of one the guys in the club showing me something on the blackboard...teaching me something. Thought about it recently, and realized how sexist this was. I was, after all, the president of that club.

[knitter4democracy]

94. My stepmom told me never to ask a boy to dance. In the 80s.

As for mechanical skills, Hubby sure is happy that I grew up with an engineer for a dad who taught me how to fix everything.

[CT_Progressive]

38. "Get your bitch-ass back in the kitchen, and make me some pie!"

- Eric Cartman, South Park

[Swede]

39. Remember this line?

[DemBones DemBones]

43. Oh, yes. The Playboy ad, as I always thought of it.

"Coffee, tea, or me?"

[eridani]

121. Do you want some TWA coffee, sir? Or some--

--well, you get the idea.

[ljm2002]

41. Thanks for this, Will...

...what I find interesting is that the younger crowd does not realize how recently attitudes towards women have shifted, largely because of the women's movement. Nowadays it is almost fashionable to be against "overly aggressive feminists" aka "bitches" aka "feminazis". Very sad.

I remember those attitudes all too well. Women were considered secondary. Some examples that come to mind:

When I was in college, one of the examples that feminists brought up was the sexism in regular textbooks. One blatant case was an anthropology textbook, where the author blithely proclaimed that the concerns of early humans were: food, shelter, and access to women. It was also common to compare IQs between races with average penis sizes -- omitting women altogether from the equation, not to mention saying a lot more about the researchers' own insecurities than anything else IMO.

When I worked at the very liberal, very well-meaning World Without War Council, I remember the twenty-something men who either had or were getting their advanced degrees in political science running the show, while the forty-something women with gray streaks in their hair and equivalent educations, doing the typing and getting the coffee.

The attitudes we laughed at in some of the sitcoms -- The Honeymooners, I Love Lucy, and All In The Family -- how those men treated their wives was funny, surely, not least because the wives always seemed to get their digs in too. But those attitudes, especially Archie Bunker and his constant put-downs of Edith, were really very accurate, and if you watch the show realizing that, it can be pretty depressing.

So I am happy to list myself as one of those aggressive feminists that the current climate so loves to hate. Screw 'em. We got where we are today by forcing the issue, and as far as I'm concerned, we need to keep doing so. The young women of today take a lot for granted, and they do not realize how recently their rights were gained, and what a heavy backlash period we are living in right now. Perilous times on many fronts, not the least in the area of women's rights. Just look at the theocratic societies of Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and Iran for a hint of how it goes when patriarchal religious control freaks are allowed to set the rules.

Okay I'll stop now. :-)

[Jamastiene]

152. Welcome to my Buddies List.

I'm still not quite sure what the Buddies List does except remind me of who posted something spectacular enough that I added them, but still :patriot: :yourock: :pals: :thumbsup:

[ljm2002]

177. Hey, thanks!

It really is disturbing how little understanding there is of the major, major attitude shift that occurred ONLY because feminists forced the issues.

And it's even more disturbing to realize how deep the backlash is. I hope we have seen the crest of that wave, but I'm not at all certain that is the case.

[raccoon]

164. Great post. nt

[ljm2002]

178. Thanks!

It is a very heartfelt issue for me.

[blondeatlast]

45. Word. Thank you for a very, very necessary reminder. We're all adults here--let's rise above. nt

[Hoof Hearted]

49. What do you mean, once? These are the standard advertising gambits now.

Royal Bank of Scotland commercial in the tram car. When danger strikes, all the little white girl can do is scream and soothe herself by brushing her pretty hair. Makes me want to PUKE every time.

There are tons of examples just like that one.

[TheDoorbellRang]

50. A big Thank You, Will!

K&R

Funny, the last time I saw a thread asking for a little PC for women, the OP (a woman) was eviscerated for "trying to tell people how to talk" and for "being too sensitive." The thread was presented just as thoughtfully as this one, so I find it rather interesting that this thread hasn't become the flamefest that the other one became. Food for thought, eh?

[NashVegas]

55. Bless You, Will

Although I "own" bitch, for the most part, thanks for the sentiment.

[Fleshdancer]

56. Today's advertisements:

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~taflinge/daddy.jpg





http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/06/14/cruisepostcard_wideweb__470x309,0.jpg

[opiate69]

59. more of today's ads..

[gollygee]

67. more

[opiate69]

70. so, sex sells?? Whodathunkit?

[opiate69]

78. Even more!

(I could do this all day.. )

[Mr_Monday]

97. Nice counter! nt

[Joe Fields]

60. I agree, Will. "Whores" is a much more appropriate term.

When, of course talking about our political leadership. (males included, of course.)

[Der Blaue Engel]

98. Um, no

You missed the point entirely. Or did I miss your sarcasm?

[Joe Fields]

114. I guess my sarcasm was too esoteric, but yes.

[Der Blaue Engel]

116. I guess I'm just being a stupid b-...er...person today

:rofl: :D

[Joe Fields]

135. No, not at all. I was just alluding to the fact that most of the politicians

in Washington (men and women) are whores. They're in perpetual campaign mode, whoring for dollars. And when they take time out to legislate, they are whoring for major corporations.

I only mentioned this originally, since Will brought up Pelosi and Hillary.

[Der Blaue Engel]

148. Actually, I was poking fun at myself, because I thought I misunderstood

But I guess I didn't after all. What I meant by my original reply is that I don't think "whore" is an improvement. Whether you include men or not, it's still a term loaded with anti-female intent, traditionally used to belittle women.

In addition, I know a few "whores" and they're great people. :)

[AX10]

62. K/R

[mmonk]

63. I wish we had a different woman as Speaker.

I wish we had a different woman running for president. Barbara Lee and Barbara Boxer come to my mind.

[GreenPartyVoter]

71. Agreed

[unpossibles]

64. thanks for the link

My wife and I (also an artist and designer) are always discussing these ads, both the sexist old ones, and the sexist new ones which show men as incompetent children. Some of these are crazy though! Good thing I have my vitamins....

[VelmaD]

65. Have I told you lately...

just how much you RAWK!!!

Thanks. *smooches*

[cally]

69. Thanks for the reminder

I'm almost 50 and I remember many ads like this. It took a long hard fight to get some change. Unfortunately, many ads recently are just as bad as these.

I appreciate your post. Sometimes it feels like most males on DU don't understand or care about women's issues.

[Mythsaje]

79. A few years back I was reading something that

detailed some of the arguments in Congress surrounding the ERA and must admit to being stunned. This was in the seventies and, while I was just a kid back then, I had never been indocrinated with the notion that women were inferior to men, so reading it just left me speechless. My stepmom couldn't hang drywall like my dad did, but just about everything else they did around the house she was at least as good at as he was. In hindsight, it seems she talked him into some pretty bad financial decisions, but that certainly doesn't reflect on her as a woman. More on him being led around by his... well...

And some of it has always been hard for me to see because I nearly always surround myself with highly intelligent, capable women. My wife is treated with respect because she damn well demands it. Anyone who doesn't is in for an eye-opener.

SHE'S the one more likely to use pet names like "sweetie" and "honey" directed at MEN. Says it's from her days as a waitress. :shrug: Heck if I know. But if I asked her outright if she felt any discrimination for being a woman, she'd probably deny it.

I've seen it personally on other occasions, though. I've seen doctors dismiss what a woman had to say about her own body, about what she KNEW was going on, or wasn't. My ex has always gone through that and it stunned me every time. My wife, not so much. If a doctor didn't treat her with respect, she'd go straight to his supervisors, lodge a complaint, and find another doctor.

She has always said that she doesn't give a shit what anyone else thinks about her. I think this gives her leverage a lot of other people don't have.

[McCamy Taylor]

80. This is why GOP women will cross party lines to vote for Hillary (but not tell pollsters in advance)

Anecdotally, my aunt is from a staunchly Republican military family but she told my yellow dog Democratic mother (in front of my Republican cousins) that she is voting for Hillary, because she wants a woman in the White House. She is not the first GOP woman I know to have said this. Of course, we are from one of the extended Southern families that is structured as a matriarchy. There are a lot of us.

[Whisp]

82. what about a woman like Ann Coulter?

there is a lot of ugly shit here about her gender or questioning of it or berating of, demeaning of. there surely is enough fuel to criticize her opinions and her hateful lines but way too many go for her gonads instead of her malfunctioning brain.

[JitterbugPerfume]

87. I remember it well,

and it still saddens and angers me.

There are still people who think like that.

[undergroundpanther]

89. sadly some think this sort of shit is equality

Nowadays not content to make the woman look stupid and glad to be bound to a servile role they "cut her up" into parts. Like meat presented in a buffet for the taking consuming using,urging the viewer to see nothing of the person just an object to be acquired and possessed. As in..


Women’s bodies are objectified in common ways. In the case of many popular ads, the objectification of the woman occurs through the association of her being with her breasts. A woman is told that she is no greater than her breast, and, similarly, men are told that the only thing that defines their being is their obsession with women's breasts. This is one of the most disturbing forms of objectification that is seen in popular advertising.
http://www.ltcconline.net/lukas/gender/pages/partsa.htm
http://www.ltcconline.net/lukas/gender/pages/partsb.htm

Female rumps, too, are cropping up all over. The Express Jeans ad showing a model's rump in Daisy Dukes - the very short shorts that ride one's buttocks - is both evocative and sensual.

ttp://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1994/vp940929/09290039.htm

body parts kids & beliefs..amusing and sad.
http://www.iusedtobelieve.com/body_parts/

[momto3]

91. Thanks for posting this. nt

[Prefer]

99. Agree that these are in bad taste

but find it an interesting contrast that Borat is not in bad taste.

They are both presented from the point of view of the dominant laughing at the weakling.

Are we just not sensitive to the plight of eastern europeans as we once were to the plight of women?

It's all "blackface".

[blondeatlast]

105. Who says Borat isn't in bad taste? There was considerable discussion of it here

when it came out.

[tammywammy]

100. My favorite looks retro but isn't item:

[brer cat]

102. Gracious, Will, how could you omit "the girl"?

"Have your girl call my girl and make the arrangements."

[NotGivingUp]

103. well, will, it's the ONE time i've appreciated what you've written.....

...that makes me hold it highly suspect.

[smoogatz]

112. Now it's men who are the helpless incompetent nincompoops in advertising.

Same ads, different gender. Thanks, ad industry!

[Chulanowa]

118. Yup...

Every guy in a commercial is either nearly freakishly ripped and shirtless, or he's such an idiot he can't work a squirt bottle without getting Windex in his face. Every dad / uncle / buddy in every sitcom is a hopeless moron who would likely kill himself with a dishsponge before learning how to scrub a pot is it weren't for Ultramom, the empowered woman who manages to work five jobs, study for being a lawyer / doctor / astronaut, while raising three to four kids and her imbicile husband. To whom she remains faithful to mostly from a sense of pity.

I don't think the people in television "get it" - Equality is not changing who you're slapping around with ridiculous stereotypes.

[eridani]

122. Where would she get the time to be unfaithful? n/t

[Chulanowa]

125. TV moms break the space-time continuum

They can be many places at once. Much like the Spanish Inquisition

[eridani]

141. I certainly never expected the Spanish Inquisition!

Sorry about that. (No, not really. :evilgrin:)

[NoFederales]

119. Well, a women has put up with me for over 30 yrs, and I wouldn't know

know what to do without her. I only know mostly extraordinary women, that's just a value-laden sentiment, but I do value women with wit, curiosity, sharp intelligence, gracious manners, and endless humor. Lucky for me that I know such women.

NoFederales

[omega minimo]

120. Is it always entertaining to kill a woman?

CSI franchise says yes.





Advertising hasn't changed. Same ole samo. Sex sells.

[TankLV]

123. What I don't understand is that all ads seemed aimed DOWN "at" women & have reverted back to the 50s

From the swifter ads, to dish liquid, bleach, vacuums, cleansers - it seems that women are only meant to cook, clean and look pretty while doing it - never are cleaning items aimed at men - never.

It's disgusting...

[Chulanowa]

126. We're dumb neanderthal slobs, didn't you know?

Our hovels are littered with nests of pizza crusts, crunchy socks, and sticky porno magazines. What for me need clean-stuff? *Scratches, belches*

[Zorra]

124. Great post. And it's not just remembering the mindset -

the mindset is still very alive in our collective cultural subconscious, and it affects women everyday, everyway.

Thanks, Will.

[puebloknot]

127. The 1950's should never have been allowed to happen!

But I ardently protest that neither Nancy Pelosi or Hillary Clinton are the examples we should look to for victory over this backward view of women!

[jeff30997]

136. The 1850's were far worst...

Women didn't even have the right to vote and were treated barely better than the slaves.

[Triana]

128. Damn it Will...

...there you go again. I love ya, man. :hug:

[valerief]

129. I remember growing up in that world. My self-esteem was totally

flushed away by the time I was seven.

[senseandsensibility]

130. All of the ads are sexist, but I don't get

the top one. What does killing a woman have to do with postage meters?:shrug: Bizarre.

[WilliamPitt]

140. See post 32

[RainDog]

132. perfect. k - r and n/t

[Control-Z]

133. This ad is currently

in Rolling Stone magazine.

I find it offensive. I've looked at it 100 times trying to figure out who this would appeal to. Even the creepiest of guys don't usually get behind insulting their mothers. Maybe I'm just missing the point of the ad.

[Eric J in MN]

154. It doesn't insult mothers.

The ad says that when your Dad was your age, he had fun while drinking that beverage, and if you drink you'll have fun, too.

[Control-Z]

155. Really?

Where does it say that? Even my narcissistic, future ex, pig of a husband thought it was insulting. And he'll fuck anyone.

[Eric J in MN]

175. The ad is talking about what a father did decades ago, not about what a mother did. NT

NT

[jeff30997]

134. "Is it always illegal to kill a woman?"

Not for those two scumbags:



Remember Karla Fay Tucker ?:grr:

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jeff30997]

181. So she's a murderer but...

The Psychopath in chief is not ??? He even laughed at her damn it!

"Please," Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "don't kill me."

So who's worst ?

Chimpy is responsible of thousands of dead!

[niyad]

182. gee, things must be slow over iin freeperville today. is there some special reason you

are bringing up this case?

enjoy your (one hopes) brief stay

[jeff30997]

183. Yes!

Buh Bye Fool_Me_Once !:evilgrin:

(Hey niyad,did you received my PM?)_

[sellitman]

137. I had my wife vote this up.

:evilgrin:

[onehandle]

138. I love chicks! I'm married to one. She baked me cookies tonight.

She can be a bitch and admits it.

I could never call Coulter what my wife calls herself.

I could never call Coulter one.

[yardwork]

139. Thank you, Will.

[Iris]

145. But notice in 1953, women are allowed to have brow lines!

even in cartoons!

[bridgit]

147. zzzt, zzzzzzzt, zzzt...

.

[snot]

149. THANK YOU! Not only did I & other gals grow up with that, but so did our bosses, clients, etc. nt

[October]

150. Thank you!

I don't know what else to say.

[Eric J in MN]

153. While portrayals of men in popular culture have always been flattering.

From "The Three Stooges" to "Dumb and Dumber."

(sarcasm)

[Quixote1818]

156. Holy Shit!

Those ads are more tasteless than a cardboard box milkshake.

[Quixote1818]

157. Holy Shit!

Those ads are more tasteless than a cardboard box milkshake.

[Gregorian]

166. There are quite a few hideous ads at this website

http://www.lileks.com/oldads/index.html

[Schema Thing]

167. Absolutely, Mr. Pitney.

[helderheid]

168. Thank Will. Gotta wonder how those models for those ads felt.

[aquart]

169. Damn straight.

I tried watching Pillow Talk the other night and wound up just gritting my teeth. Advertising isn't the only place we had to deal with those entertaining concepts of women.

A month ago, I downloaded an ebook called Vikram and the Vampire, a Burton translation from the Sanskrit. Hard to find an original date for the work, but the translation was 19th century. Imagine my surprise to find the old meme that women say no when they mean yes given as advice to a young prince. So that crap may have been circulating for at least two thousand years...and only at the end of the last century did we manage to put it in the trash where it belongs.

[Gonzo Gardener]

172. Sexism thrives in my neck of the woods...

but who should really be surprised? It's Indiana.

Thanks, Will, for your OP. It is easy, if you live in a progressive area, to forget how bad it was/is. I moved from Southern California to Indiana six years ago and it has been a huge eye opener.

I'm a business and home owner. If I need a contractor's estimate for a work related issue, no problem. If I need a contractor's estimate for my home, the first question is... "When can I talk to your husband, little lady?".

We had a little issue with a failing septic system a few years back and I called several area contractors. I could not get any of them to come out to give an estimate or perform the work until my husband called them. He was in Huston and I had sludge gurgling up into my tub! The only guy who came out said, " I'll have to clear this with the man who'll be writing the check, honey. Can I reach your husband on the phone?"

:nuke: :grr: :nuke:

Is it always illegal to kill a plumber?

[MikeH]

173. Along these lines

One thing that has bothered me, and that has seemed to be constant as far back as I can remember, is that body hair on women, particularly hair on a woman's legs or underarms, is something that has been all but verboten.

And as of recently women remove hair not just on their legs and underarms, but also on their forearms and pubic region.

If natural body hair on women (but not on men) being considered gross, disgusting, dirty, or unkempt (as well as not feminine), and women (but not men) being expected by society to go through all kinds of pain and trouble to remove their body hair, is not an example of the kind of blatant sexism being discussed on this thread, then I don't know what is.

Admittedly some men are now getting into removing some of their body hair; however men doing such a thing was almost unheard of until recently.

Certain industries, starting with the Gillette razor company back in 1915, as well as cosmetic industries, do profit from selling their products by convincing women, and young girls starting in their adolescence, that their body hair is something unacceptable and undesirable, and to be gotten rid of.

I bring this up because I am a man who has been attracted to body hair on women since I was an adolescent. Hairy legs on women have been one of my favorites, but I also like body hair elsewhere. It has just not seemed fair that just about everything else has been acceptable in our society at some time since the 1960's, except for natural body hair on women. It particularly bothered me in the 1970's that it was common and widespread for men to wear long (head) hair, but not for women to let the hair grow on their legs or underarms.

I will say that I find very sexy a woman with body hair, who likes her natural hair and her natural state as being a part of herself, and is not ashamed of her natural hair and natural state.

It seems to me to be just as appropriate for me to share my attraction to body hair on women as it is for gay people to share their attraction to people of the same sex.

There is a webmistress in Massachusetts who runs some adult web sites devoted to the promotion and admiration of female body hair, including a chat board on which I post. There are a number of men who, like myself, also have a strong liking for natural female body hair, and who dislike the plastic Barbie doll look.

[Raejeanowl]

174. Thank You, Mr. Pitt

I remember it all too well. And I have a few sexist stories of my own that no one would believe nowadays. But they happened to me.

We've come a long way, baby.

[AuntPatsy]

179. Thank you, how soon people forget.

[Katherine Brengle]

180. Thank you.