were viet nam vets spat upon?

[mopinko]

having a little mud fight with the local freeper about whether returning vets were spat upon, or whether it is an urban legend. what says the great du databank on this issue?

[Fearless]

1. From what I've seen and heard,

there is no video proof of that ever happening.

[cherokeeprogressive]

136. How common were hand-held and cell phone video cameras in the 70's? n/t

[Fearless]

139. What I was saying is that there is nothing by hearsay

And there were tv cameras at many veterans returns and so on.

[theredpen]

2. It's an urban myth

So, just no.

[Peregrine Took]

50. Definitely. For those that say it did occur please provide approximate dates

and locations and be as specific as you can.

[Mountainman]

112. See my post no. 111 and it isn't just an approximate date or place.

[Hekate]

87. self-delete

sorry

[madokie]

3. never happened

[Sam_Smith]

4. I believe it happened

based solely on the accounts from people who claimed it happened to them.

[Bluebear]

7. I see.

[HughMoran]

8. Sounds like here-say to me

Got any actual accounts you can direct us to?

[Sam_Smith]

16. No links or "proof"

Just the accounts of my uncle and several of his friends from the VFW. I choose to believe them.

[HughMoran]

22. Never once heard an actual person state this

I chose not to believe them - they're probably RW nut jobs who promote this sort of lie.

[Sam_Smith]

26. My uncle is not a rightwing nutjob.

And he is not a liar. He shared his experiences and I believe him.

[HughMoran]

27. Was he spit on?

...or is he repeating rumors he heard?

I know lots of people - repsected people like my own dad who I have since learned were guilty of repeating 2nd, 3rd or even more remote information. You can't get away with stuff like that with the internet, but it was common when I was a kid during the vietnam era.

[Sam_Smith]

30. He told me he was spit upon.

A group of teenagers spit at him and a couple of his buddies. He also said they were probably sent by Nixon himself. The last part is him joking.

[mopinko]

57. as i said in another response- i realize this was not the poll question

but the story in question is regarding peace protesters.
in some of the other stuff i have read, the few "substantiated" stories involved wwII vets unhappy with their younger brethren. i can easily see that story morphing into something a little more palatable.

[HughMoran]

59. I threw ice-balls at people in trolleys when I was a teenager

I dumped hundreds of pounds of snow on top of people from store roofs. At the time I thought it was funny as teenagers often do. I don't think the actions of a couple of teenagers speaks to the feelings of the masses at the time. Just saying... :shrug:

[Sam_Smith]

83. I never claimed masses did anything.

The poll question was did it ever happen. I took it to mean as if did it even happen once. So based on what people in my life have told me I answered yes.

[HughMoran]

92. True enough

Anyway, welcome to DU :hi:

You will understand soon enough why people with low post counts "just being honest" on a controversial topic tend to set off alarms.

[hack89]

78. My father is not a RW nut job

staunch democrat, Viet Nam vet who told me he was spat on. I believe him.

[seemslikeadream]

29. Name names and dates and places please

[Sam_Smith]

33. I'm not giving up names of my family.

I expressed my opinion on this poll and told you all what my basis of my belief is. The intent of posting was not to change anyone's mind or debate about this. I choose to believe what my uncle told me. If you want to disagree with my opinion then that's ok. You have your life experiences and I have mine. There is room for folks to disagree on things. If not then we might as well start posting at Freerepublic where you have to march in lockstep.

[Flabbergasted]

35. You're right Sam. Welcome to DU.

[Sam_Smith]

37. Thank you for the welcome.

[seemslikeadream]

45. OK and I think it's really great that you found something right away

that was of interest to you here

[Sam_Smith]

85. I simply answered the poll question.

I wasn't looking for a debate I just answered the question and stated why I believe so.

[Swamp Rat]

54. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Sam_Smith]

79. Thanks for the welcome.

And let me say I have been watching DU for a few months now and just got the courage to sign up on such a huge board. I have noticed the graphics that you make up and I think you are very talented.

[Swamp Rat]

81. Thanks!!

Welcome aboard. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Welcome to DU

[Greyhound]

106. I think you meant to write hearsay.

The standards are a little higher here than what you've experienced elsewhere.

Welcome.

[Fleshdancer]

128. same here

It happened to my father. It only happened once, the spit hit his shoe, it pissed him off, but he walked away and that was that.

Whether we like it or not, some people are just assholes. This doesn't mean everyone who opposed Vietnam did this and it certainly doesn't point to their political affiliation. :shrug:

[Canuckistanian]

5. Many have actually LOOKED for a verified example

But come up empty.

It's a myth, carefully crafted, nothing more.

[Sam_Smith]

10. I can't provide any links or proof

but, I believe my uncle and some other folks over the years who told me their experiences.

[JuniperLea]

18. Welcome to DU, Sam_Smith...

You've learned your first important lesson around here... anecdotal stories mean nothing... only solid proof will be accepted around here. Sometimes people get nasty about it, but in the long run, it's a good thing. There's enough 'story-telling' in the world today. DU is about getting at the facts, unlike our evil twins on the other side of the Internets.

:)

[Sam_Smith]

25. The poll asked what we believe

and I answered what I believe and why I believe it. When people I know personally tell me their stories I know who to believe and who not to. My uncle, for example is a lifelong Democrat and he says it happened to him so I will take him at face value. Now whether anyone else believes it or not is not relevant. The only relevance is, to show why I have my opinion.

[JuniperLea]

61. I understand

Only trying to help! sheesh...

That's what I get for being friendly and helpful... fuck me all to hell anyway. Guess I'm the one who learned a valuable lesson here. Egad!

[Sam_Smith]

95. I apologize then

I must have misunderstood your intent.

[mopinko]

68. thanks for your answer.

you are correct that it was what was asked for.

[JuniperLea]

77. No, that's not correct

Only one poll question indicated a request for a belief. The rest asked for information based on personal experience or anecdotal evidence.

Sorry, I had four cousins who fought in Viet Nam, and they all hated this story and could not find substantiation for it among themselves or their brothers in arms. Every time this comes up, it causes hurt feelings. There are several people here on DU that I respect for their intelligence, humor, and writing prowess, who steadfastly adhere to their belief that it did indeed happen. I've had blood relations who were there look me in the face and say it was all lies.

I think it should be dropped and never talked about again! On the other hand, no matter what you believe, there is a lesson to be learned here. In today's world, we would demand proof, evidence, witnesses, etc. Back in the day, not so much. We were naive and most of us believed the Kool-Aid we were being hand fed. The other lesson is that this sort of treatment should never happen to a soldier who laid their lives on the line in the name of the USA, regardless of the reason or lack of reason for the war in question. Some would say it should never happen 'again'. It makes no difference, as long as the lesson is learned.

[mopinko]

93. well, it's my poll, and

it's fine with me.
i understand exactly where you are coming from. like i said in another response, sorry to stir up people's shit. but it was thrown by the local nutjob at a fine upstanding old commie pinko hippie in the hood here, and i am being called a "rhymes with bitch" for pointing out that it is most probably bullshit in general. disgraceful, he says i am. which, coming from him, is one of the nicest compliments i have received in a long time.

[JuniperLea]

97. Sounds like he has Kool-Aid poisoning:)

Poor dear probably isn't used to conversing with someone who actually thinks.

I don't blame you for bringing the nutjob's issue here... I've done it myself many a time... knee jerk now... what would DU say? Good call on your part, actually, but man... do we have some passionate people around here or what?

[mopinko]

99. true dat

and sometimes how people say it can tell you as much as what they say. don't know how i managed to miss this topic in the past. good sense, i guess.

[Howardx]

6. check this link

this guy wrote THE BOOK on this....literally

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0430-21.htm

[JuniperLea]

14. Ha! I knew your expert opinion would show up in this thread!

You must have bullshit seeking radar!

:hi:

[Howardx]

19. i had the link handy

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

52. Lembcke also claimed that PTSD was more political invention than mental health affliction

So, folks can take BOTH his claims and shove them where the sun don't shine.

[tammywammy]

63. But I don't think he's a definitive source on it

http://volokh.com/posts/1170928927.shtml

http://www.slate.com/id/2159470/sidebar/2159648/


Even he says that he doesn't deny that spitting could have happened. He's just never been given "proof" of his standards of it. :shrug:

[hack89]

84. Now Lembke appears to acknowledge that there likely were some incidents of actual spitting.

Yet the recently uncovered evidence of contemporaneous accounts of spitting have forced Lembke to retreat from his more extreme prior claims, such as: "The truth is that nobody spat on Vietnam veterans." <6> Now Lembke appears to acknowledge that there likely were some incidents of actual spitting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spitting_Image

[JuniperLea]

88. Bah... wikipedia...

I put that there just before you posted the link!

Psych!

Not really, but I could have.

[tammywammy]

98. Here's two sources where he changes postions on the spitting

Spitting on the Troops: Old Myth, New Rumors
By Jerry Lembcke

"The truth is that nobody spat on Vietnam veterans and nobody is spitting on the soldiers today. "

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350


And then here he says this:

Jerry Lembcke's Response to Jim Lindgren

"1. I've never said I knew that spitting did not happen. In the book, I speculate that, given the raucous nature of the war years and the many years that the war and opposition went on, I'd be surprised if some veteran, sometime, someplace, would not have been spat on."

http://www.slate.com/id/2159470/sidebar/2159648


Regardless of using a Wikipedia link, Lembcke seems to have changed from, it never ever happened to it could have happened.

[Flabbergasted]

9. kick to view later

[Breeze54]

11. I'm sure it happened at anti-war rallies ...

Look at the way the idiots treat marchers that aren't vets today!! I'm sure it happened somewhere.

I was at a anti-war rally in Boston back then, with a Vietnam vet boyfriend and he got in a fist

fight with a construction worker about the war. My next door neighbor got his ass kicked royally

by my brother because of a nasty comment he made to my brother the night before he left for Vietnam.

My brother was drafted and was not happy about going. I still don't know what the neighbor said.

[Mountainman]

12. It happened to me. I've told this story many time here. I even talked to the author of the book

that says it is a myth on Mike Malloy's show.

The reason I think it did not make a lot of news when it happened is because none of us knew it happened to anyone else. I did not know for over 20 years that it was talked about when I heard the author of the book on KPFK one day. That day they said it never happened and many years later they were again giving the book away on one of their fund drives.

I can see how people would say it never happened but the author of the book said to me on Mike Malloy'show that he couldn't prove it didn't happen any more than he could prove it did.

So if you want my story PM me because I am no longer bothered by these threads and have put it behind me.

[TahitiNut]

49. Yup. You, Monkeyman (Dale Peters, may he RIP), and me ... among others.

The myopic arrogance of those who claim it NEVER happened is boundless, imho.

Every time this topic crops up it adds insult to insult.

[mopinko]

71. thank you for your story.

didn't mean to churn the bs. thank you.

[stevedeshazer]

73. Like I said before

I used to doubt this, too, until you and others I trust vouched for it.

If you guys say it happened, that's good enough for me.

Another source I have is a V-V who works at my local 7-11. He says it happened to him, too.

I didn't want to believe it, but I do. That's the way it is with a lot of things these days.

:(

[H2O Man]

100. I have had

some friends and associates tell me that it happened when they returned from Vietnam. They are serious men, and I know that if they say it happened, it definitely happened.

[DemBones DemBones]

123. OK, I believe you guys, but I want to know how you know

you were spat on by peaceniks.

Before today, in all the threads about this, I've never seen anyone here claim they experienced this except Mountainman. I believed him when he said it happened to him but I don't think he ever told exactly what happened. Since he doesn't want to talk about it again, maybe you will.

Do you know for a fact that the people who spat on you were peace protesters? That's so far out of line with my experience with the peace movement that it's hard to believe. If you were told that DUers were going around spitting on soldiers returning from Iraq, you'd question whether they were really DUers, wouldn't you?

So I believe you and Mountainman were spat on, I just question who did the spitting, and how widespread it was. Why didn't the VVAW speak out about it? I knew a couple of guys who were very involved with VVAW, as well as other vets, and I can't imagine why the VVAW wouldn't have raised it as an issue at some point.

[TahitiNut]

124. As I've said frequently, I have no idea WHAT political views they possessed.

The questions of WHETHER and BY WHOM must be severed. This is the basic fallacy that pervades this "discussion" no matter how often it arises. It seems we've totally forgotten that the political alignments were far different in those days from today. It was "Johnson's War" and the GOP was still a haven for isolationists (e.g. Pat Buchanan). Conversely, the Democratic Party still included a huge number of conservative "Southern Democrats" and their kin many of whom (ironically) had no tolerance for a military that was "losing." Thus, the "anti-war" crowd was more than merely 'salted' with conservative isolationists. Even remembering this, the incidents were most often NOT associated with any organized protests - but more typically 'walk by' ambushes.

In general, I found far greater comfort in the company of ideological leftist/liberal types (a little pot, a lotta love) than with the career-oriented organization types or even the zealous activists. The zealous activists I met harbored anger and sneered at me for not running off to Canada - for "letting myself get drafted."

In the late 60s, Army NCOs called ANY young male civilian a "hippie" - and it was the most common "insult" applied to new enlistees in basic training. It had almost nothing to do with politics and was a mere 'social' schism.


The "myth" is in the allocation of BLAME (and total denial of it as well) and NOT about whether it actually happened. It DID happen. That's NOT a myth.


On edit: Insofar as the question of "how frequently" ... I've addressed that again below, in a prior post. The perception was, no doubt, falsely inflated by the incredible number of "faux Viet Nam vets" that crawled out of the woodwork in the 80s - by some estimates numbering several times as many as actually served in Viet Nam. But to take as some kind of "evidence" that these people were never spat upon is the logical equivalent of saying nobody served ni Viet Nam. It's ludicrous, imho.

[BoneDaddy]

126. I agree

I think it is the left's version of trying to not be accountable for the way they may have spearheaded the anti-military movement. No one doubts that the soldiers orders, missions and for some, individual behavior were wrong, but equally wrong were those in the anti-war movement who may have engaged in spitting on troops.

My God, the hatred for the military by some on these boards leads me to believe that scenario even more.

[TahitiNut]

129. Sadly, it "comes with the territory" of wearing a UNIFORM.

The behavior of a minority of those who act in uniform, whether it be HEROIC or DETESTABLE, reflects upon all of those who wear that uniform. That's DELIBERATE. Whether it's police, military, clergy, or Boy Scouts ... that's the yin and yang of uniforms. It's undeniable that many who seek to wear a uniform do so to COLLECT the benefits of the esteem in which that uniform is held due to the acts of those who wore it in the past. The Marine Corps relies on this fact for recruitment. What's not as common is the commitment to increase the esteem in which that uniform is held by investing one's OWN behavior in it. It's a sad fact of life ... and is a seductive fallacy: "broad brush."

[mopinko]

70. hey, no harm intended.

sorry to churn up people's bullshit. honestly looking for the truth. fwiw, this bs was hurled at someone that i doubt ever did any such thing, but who is the obsession of the local freeper.
thank you for your response.

[Mountainman]

109. I understand, no harm taken. You know, we can't do anything about the past.

We can only do something about how we relate to it. It use to get to me a lot but I realize that history is written by those who never lived it and people believe what they want. I can't change what people believe either and I don't care to try. We all live our personal hells and no one can share the other person's hell.

If people want to believe it didn't happen that is fine. We know what we went through and for most of us that's been put to rest now. It was a long time ago and we lived a lot of life since then and hopefully we have a few good years left.

[Warpy]

13. I knew one vet who said he was and I have no reason to doubt him

Apparently there was a gauntlet of drunken teenagers near a bar. Whether through accident or design, a loogie hit my friend's boot. The expectorator reportedly got his face rearranged until he apologized.

I have a feeling it did happen but very rarely and involved stupid teenagers instead of seasoned antiwar people.

[mopinko]

51. this is not really the story.

it would be peace protesters doing the spitting that is the point. and your story would sort of prove the point that there should be an equal number hippies without teeth.
edited to say that i realize that was not a part of the poll question.

[Warpy]

82. Oh, I think the drunk teenybopper probably kept his teeth

but I doubt his nose was ever the same shape.

Still, other than this one first person account, I have never heard of any other stories unless they were apocryphal, right wing media stories. The fact that there weren't legions of war protestors walking around with punched out teeth and broken noses and wired together jaws would seem to confirm that 99.9% of the "they all spit on the returning heroes" statement was a bald faced lie meant to discredit an antiwar movement who knew damned full well the usually drafted soldiers weren't the problem. In fact, the best thing that happened to us was when VVAW was organized in 1970-71.

So, yes, I'm sure it was a very isolated phenomenon. I wouldn't be at all surprised that I could count the number of incidents without changing hands.

[AlCzervik]

15. My Dad and his half brother are both Vietnam vets and my BIL is also one

bil also was in the service for 30 years and neither one of them were spat on and neither one knows any other vet who was, does that mean it never happened--no but no vet i know has ever witnessed that happening.

[goodgd_yall]

17. Not a vet, but I was around AND

I think reports of spatting happening are greatly exaggerated. It's become a great American myth of the Vietnam years brought to you by the fledgling neocons of the 80s and persistently repeated for political gain.

[magellan]

24. Best answer and most likely IMO. n/t

[uppityperson]

38. Yup. It probably happened, but reports are exaggerated.

Have Walmart shoppers been spat upon? Probably someone somewhere at some point. Sort of like that.

[Orangepeel]

20. It probably happened once or twice

I have no personal or even anecdotal evidence, but I know that there are a lot of assholes in the world on both sides of the political aisle. I'd be surprised if no vet ever had been spat upon, but if so, it was probably a Fred Phelps-type loon who did it.

[DemBones DemBones]

21. The claims about spitting peaceniks came years

after the war. The guys I knew who went to VietNam never said anything about this, which I think would have come up in our discussions of the war.

[Lilith Velkor]

31. Funny how you never hear about spitting squares.

My uncle said he got spat on by a dude in a suit who then screamed, "Why aren't you back there WINNING the war?!"

I don't think he's lying, but I have no proof and have never heard of anything like that from a Vietnam vet, although I did hear a couple similar stories from Iraq vets.

[DemBones DemBones]

120. It is, isn't it? I never heard anyone say soldiers were

"babykillers," either. The blame was placed where it belonged.

"Hey, hey, LBJ,
How many kids did you kill today?"

Edit: I mean I never heard anyone who was anti-war refer to the soldiers fighting the war as "babykillers," which has been alleged. Most people knew someone who was over there, because we had a draft, so people were not anti-soldiers but anti-war, anti-LBJ, anti-Nixon, anti-Kissinger.

[devilgrrl]

23. I believe there were isolated incidents - not a mass movement as the right suggests

but I do believe some Vietnam vets were treated like that. A few here at DU were.

Why would they lie about something like that?

[SyntaxError]

36. I tend to think similarly to you.

It's very possible that there were isolated incidents in which such events could have taken place, but I doubt it happened as a regular event. Of course I wasn't around then, so I'm pretty much talking out of my ass. However, based on what I've seen from people today, I couldn't see it as being a popular move by anyone... If it did happen then most the people I know would put the dumbass in his place, or at the very least try to distance themselves...

I could also see some right wingers doing this to a vet who is anti-war. Although, I think such a person would receive a similar response from those around him, and that it wouldn't be a popular move for them either.

[TahitiNut]

67. Let's try to understand the "myth of the myth" better, OK?

The behavior of Viet Nam veteran draftees AFTER "coming home" was, if possible, to "put it behind us" and "pass" for civilians again. I wasn't asked about my experience and I sure as hell rarely talked about it ... at least in the 70s. It was like being a leper - derided for not going to Canada or looked down upon for not being "smart" (or rich) enough to stay out of the Army. Thus, except for those who earlier took up the 'cause,' most of us tried to fade in to the scenery. Lifers were another story (for another time).

By the time the Viet Nam Veterans Memorial was being built in the early 90s, we saw a strange phenomenon, There were - by various estimates - four, five, six, seven or eight times as many guys claiming to be Viet Nam vets as ever served in Viet Nam! Imagine that! (For SOME strange reason, guys who NEVER served and guys who served somewhere else seemed to think it was "cool." I could NEVER figure that one out.) Now, if those of us who actually served in-country (about 2.7 million of us) were still silent - "passing" for civilians - just WHAT are the chances someone telling a "war story" was ACTUALLY a vet? One in ten??

Now, let's take it just a bit further. Just WHO would make such a false claim?? Eighties. Reagan. Hmmmm? (Anyone think this might be something a "Reagan Democrat" would do?) And just WHO would they blame? Well... let's see. The "Reagan Democrats" were blue collar, rust belt, church-goin' Leave It To Beaver folks ... the very same folks who thought ANYONE wearing long hair was a "hippie" ... people who thought "hippie" was synonymous with "queer."

It's not at all a surprise to me that folks lied about being spat on. But they were lying about being vets, too!! And the "myth of the myth" is built, ready to be 'discovered.' Along comes Lembcke - with an axe to grind.


So, what does Lembcke do? As a radical "hippie-Marxist" (true, he was a 'proud' Marxist) he rejects the BLAME! He threw the baby out with the bathwater. He made ridiculous assertions (that there'd be police reports? nonsense! that there'd be brawls? nonsense!) and then, based on the absence of the 'evidence' he CLAIMS 'must' be there, rejects the claims and calls people liars who were the victims of such behavior. It's detestable academic rigor and intellectually dishonest scholarship. Lembcke ALSO claimed (in his screed) that PTSD was political instead of medical!!! Imagine that! So, all the Viet Nam vets that woke up with nightmares and flashbacks - or screamed in their sleep - were just being "political."

[seemslikeadream]

28. I would like someone to come forward and say this happened

not on anonymous poll, real names real dates

[TahitiNut]

72. We have. We've been called liars.

How much abuse do people have to take to make you happy? :eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. Abuse?

If being asked to back up a claim gets exaggerated as "abuse" then...

[TahitiNut]

89. Being called a liar (and worse) for telling the truth is abuse. Yes. (Read much?)

The ignorant pig-headedness that demands photographs, police reports, or the spittle preserved in a test-tube is just a compounding of the abuse, imho.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/372

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

96. Have you got any evidence of that PM?

[TahitiNut]

101. What kind of "evidence"?

Other than the fact that it's still in my InBox, just WHAT kind of "evidence" do YOU want?

Nevermind ... I don't wrestle with pigs, either. :eyes:

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. And it is happening again

and you know what, those young men (mostly) will also be called liars in twenty years

[TahitiNut]

105. Yup. It's the "blame game" all over again.

It seems we "citizens" of our nation will resort to many extremes to avoid taking responsibility that it's IN OUR NAME that our government does what it does ... and our failure to either accept the 'contract' of a democratic republic or TAKE BACK our sovereignty as The People if we believe it's been usurped makes US the ones to blame. In factions, some even go to the extreme to say "it never happened" and call the victims liars when the more zealous members of the faction cannot admit to the extremes some of their compatriots can go or acknowledge that such behavior is sociopathic - and sociopaths are found across all political ideologies.

It's a wonder ANY veterans have the courage to tell the truth about how they were treated if they're merely going to be treated again like lepers and liars ... and "baby-killers." I'll bet most veterans never thought "service" meant being a whipping-boy. At the same time, the faux "veterans" who cloak themselves with such deceits and claim service they NEVER performed disgust me even more. They're the real bottom of the barrel, imho.

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. Actually I have an even lower place

for mercenaries.

Money soldiers truly disgust me even more than your faux vets.

[Mountainman]

111. here you go, Spec 4 Bob Cochran March 18, 1968 SFO

That's me, you want to see my DD214 also? By the way I still have one of my fatigue shirts from Nam too. I almost left it at the Wall but the names I knew on the Wall don't need it anymore.

The only people who witnesses this were me the guy that spit on me and his girlfriend. No news cameras, not reporters just us. I never did anything about it and for years I thought it was an isolated incident. I never told anyone about it because it wasn't that important to me and I did not know what kind of reception waited for me. I was in uniform flying stand-by and we were warned not to do anything wrong because we were still subject to the UCMJ for 72 hours. I was a draftee and had just been discharged some hours before.

You know. This story isn't a reflection on the anti war movement. Many people take it that way and I think that is why it is so hard for them to believe. Being anti war doesn't make you a saint. There are shit asses on both sides. If that's hard to believe then there isn't anything anyone can tell you.

[bemildred]

115. Indeed. There were some real assholes in the anti-war movement.

And I was and still am an anti-war person. Some people had principled views, and some people just liked to stir things up and watch the show, a big ego trip for them.

[CitizenLeft]

116. doesn't matter that I was too young or that I would never do that...

...but I'm terribly sorry that happened to you, even though it didn't bother you so much at the time. I'm sure it bothered others it happened too, however. Probably a lot.

At the risk of sounding "partisan" (hahahaha, hell, I am), I have a hard time visualizing a lefty activist or pacifist spitting on a vet. On the other hand... following My Lai and other atrocities... but those were different times. Today, it's much more likely that some nutcase on the right would spit on somebody like Paul Reickhof - can't see an anti-war activist today doing such a thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. I was a college student at the height of the Vietnam War, and I

never heard of anyone going to spit on vets or any of the vets who attended my college being spat on.

In fact, the first time I heard of this was during the Reagan administration. Funny thing, that.

Can I categorically say that no vet was ever spat on?

No, but the way the righties told the story, Vietnam vets returning through San Francisco were routinely spat upon by hippies in the airport.

(As one Vietnam vet said, "If this were true, then there would have been an equal number of reports of hippies with broken teeth.)

I believe that it was the typical right-wing practice of taking an isolated incident and making it seem like a national trend. (You know, like the stories of schools where an ACA--ass-covering administrator--erroneously tells the students that the law won't allow them to say grace privately at lunch, and the right-wing press makes it sound as if all public schools are doing this.)

[Flabbergasted]

34. lol. nt

[zbdent]

39. I had a co-worker claim he was spat upon in Calif ...

of course, he claimed that Bill Clinton had admitted having sex with Monica ... and then denied he ever claimed it ... so you know how good his word might be ...

[tammywammy]

40. I had multiple vets tell me they were spit upon

I believe them, they had no reason to lie to me.

[bbinacan]

41. I think this may have happened

My aunt's boyfriend told me he was spat on when he got back. He spent a night in jail and the spitter? Let's just say he would've preferred a night in jail to a night in the emergency room.

[symbolman]

42. This one is getting old

Yes it did happen, I know for a fact because it happened to me.. San Francisco airport while in uniform, and I was called a baby killer at the same time.. I shrugged it off, figured the spitter was ignorant of how many jobs there were in the military and was oblivious to the fact that there was a draft, and it could have just as easily been THEIR ass in a uniform had the Govt dice rolled a different way..

I was a Purchasing Agent in the Air Force and never ordered any Baby Killing devices the whole time...

Quite a few DU Vets have been spat on, at least three that I know of, so the writer of that book is full of total shit, think about that percentage, you can figure it's gotta be pretty high..

Most guys that spent years being shot at don't give much of a damn over being spit at, though one of my pals beat the snot out of a spitter once :)

[tammywammy]

44. I've read your threads on this

There will always be people that don't believe you. But I do. I've been told by vets that they were spit on, and they had no reason to lie to me. :shrug:

[symbolman]

47. LOL, I can only HOPE they believe

most of the people here who knew me as a mini celebrity on the web probably dont post anymore, Stranger and I basically CREATED the Flash political attack ad online, I've spent more than. Couple of hundred thousand bucks fighting this Regime, appearing on O'Reilly's show, Scarborough's twice, nearly winning a Moveon. Org contest where Michael Moore announced me at a big function in NTC, won Hollywood awards, been sued by Michael Savage for a half a million.. The list goes on, and is verifiable, so yeah, I've got no reason to lie.. :)

Appreciate your support too!! Many thanks..

The OP left off Vietnam Era Vets, they caught shit too, even after the war..

[Marrah_G]

125. I believe you and MM

You have no adgenda, no reason to lie. Some people like to think every story is a right wing conspiracy.

At the sept march I was in the right corner of the march, as part of the barrier between the crowd and the VFP guys. There were a bunch of kids of Arab decent dressed up like Hamas, headbands covering their faces, looking for trouble with the pro-war (what an odd term) crowd. They were purposely goading people, trying to get someone to attack them. They wore the ANSWER shirts, same as myself but were there with very different agendas. We wanted peace, they wanted a fight.

Then there were the anarchists in black ski mask group.

My point is this: Not all protesters or anti-war people behave the same. Not all have the same agendas. A small percentage from both sides will act like jerks. AND LASTLY...... in the late 60's early 70's we didn't all carry camera phones. To expect someone to have PROOF that some douchebag spit at them in a bar or airport 40 years ago is just plain rediculous and frankly I am sure it is insulting. They are VETS, they are fighting on OUR side. Why the fuck would they lie.

[TahitiNut]

75. You got it, bro.

Almost nothing shows the myopic, self-centered arrogance of some on DU more than this repeated topic and their prideful ignorance and denial.

And then there's the occasional one who, after being extremely dismissive, comes around. That takes some courage, I gotta say.

:shrug:

[riqster]

76. One of my friends was asked

..."How many babies did you kill?" on his return. By his mother.

And I believe him, having known them both. He deserved better than he got, from the VA and his family.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

43. I remember my father telling me about a bad experience when he came back

My father had just completed a one year tour of duty flying little spotter planes, during which he won the Bronze Star. Unfortunately, he's no longer alive and I have to rely on memory for what he told me many years ago. On his flight back to the U.S., I believe he first landed in Houston. He and a couple of buddies had to catch a connecting flight to Hunter Field in Georgia where we were living. He said the airline bumped them from their flight. They only bumped the guys in uniform. My father asked why and he said the guy at the airline ticket counter was very rude and made comments about the war. My father complained to the Supervisor but to no avail. They had to spend the night at the airport waiting for a later flight. He never mentioned being spit upon, however. I don't remember the specific details of what my father said but I know it really made him upset.

I later demonstrated against the war and knew several returning vets who also demonstrated. No one ever mentioned to me that they had actually had someone spit on them. Even though I strongly opposed the war, I never blamed the troops and never could agree with other anti-war people I knew who called the returning veterans "baby killers". In fact, I remember heated exchanges between anti-war vets and others who blamed them for not deserting or refusing to go. But back then in those days, it seemed everyone was arguing with everyone else over that terrible war and everyone had their own particular point of view.

[MindPilot]

56. That is so different than my experience.

I found the airlines treated us military people like kings. I NEVER failed to get a standby seat on the flight I wanted and sometimes even free upgrades to 1st class. The stewardesses were absolutely wonderful. When they had time, they would sit and chat, give us free drinks and sometimes even send us off the plane with a peck on the cheek.

This was when I was stationed in San Diego and flying back & forth to Denver pretty regularly.

[SharkSquid]

46. I am not sure this guys persuasion but he provides some links

http://pushingrope.blogspot.com/2006/02/vietnam-spit-stories.html

[MindPilot]

48. I wish I had been spit on...that I could have just wiped off

Being told straight to my face that my veteran status was the reason I wasn't getting hired is a little more difficult to brush away.

It sure as hell wasn't some "dirty hippie" making that decision. Funny thing about this revised history that it doesn't seem to square with actual expericence. I was welcomed home by everyone except the "establishment".

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. I was at a lot of anti-war demos and never saw it.

But, I did see a lot of Vietnam vets participating in the demonstrations.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. I've seen video of it happening in that documentary...

Forrest Gump.

[EVDebs]

58. Nixon's treason is a better question to ask vets about...

It disrespects troops more to treat them as cannonfodder:


Friday, July 15, 2005 by The Free Press (Colombus, OH)
Will Traitor Rove Follow Father Figure Nixon's Fatal Footsteps?
By Harvey Wasserman
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0715-10.htm

"Nixon's actual treason came in the 1968 election. On Hubert Humphrey's behalf, Lyndon Johnson was on the brink of signing an October peace deal with North and South Vietnam. A cessation of hostilities would have defeated Nixon.

But Nixon's covert minions intervened. In direct violation of American and international law, the Nixon campaign offered the south Vietnamese a "better deal" if they would reject LBJ's peace overtures.

They did, and seven more years of horrendous slaughter followed. By any legal and moral accounting, Nixon's sabotage of peace talks with foreign government was an act of treason. "

How many troops died from 1969 through 1975 ??

[bridgit]

60. some *may* have been, many were not...

whether then whether now the matter will be keyed upon, imo, our otherwise 'noble' troops having been willing to thrash this world, kill & destroy it; for little more than american corporate interests...we were said to go into Iraq for lofty, noble reasons i.e. freedom, liberty, blah-blah...but it has been as was Vietnam; a ruse to divide and concur not only people but every more scarce resources, a veil of tears again...imo

[bemildred]

62. Might have been a case or two, but mostly I remember getting drunk and stoned with them. nt

[XOKCowboy]

64. Pretty much the same here. It was good just to have them home

The only disrespect I saw was by RWers calling vets who opposed the war traitors and worse.

[bemildred]

65. Yep. Just glad they were home where they belonged.

:hi:

[Stinky The Clown]

66. Why the need for this again?

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0430-21.htm

http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/04/30/debunking_a_spitting_image/

http://northcoastcafe.typepad.com/north_coast_cafe/2003/09/i_got_spat_on.html

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350

.... and the beat goes on. It is, one must remember always, impossible to prove a negative.

[tammywammy]

69. Maybe someone got jealous of the smoking thread today

Oh, and there was a good spanking thread too.

[mopinko]

74. just trying to stick up for one of my favorite old hippies

who is the perennial target of the local rw nutjob bloggers. sick of us old hippies being accused of crap like this. wondered what the truth of the matter might be in general.
as always, the du brain trust has given me the scoop. very grateful.

[God23]

80. I was around and very active in the anti-war movement and never would have considered

spitting on a soldier and never saw it happen. Besides, they had the best dope.

And was friends with many because of the draft. Hell, I remember getting ripped with buds in barracks at Ft. Benning (don't ask me how this "long haired hippie faggot" got in there). It seemed 85% of the soldiers were against the war as well.

[book_worm]

90. While not widespread I can imagine it happened to a few

[sendero]

91. Moot...

.... let's say for the sake of argument it happened.

Should the entire anti-war movement be declared evil because of the actions of a miniscule, infinitesimally small contingent?

If so, I hereby declare that all Republicans are the equivalent of Fred Phelps and his family of douchebags.

[mopinko]

94. i second that

and this clown is. he thinks that is a good thing.

[Catherine Vincent]

104. Yes.

Bill Clinton did it.

[Greyhound]

107. Could you skew this poll a little more, please?

This is equivalent to the "bra burning" of the same era. A lie manufactured from whole cloth to distract the gullible.

[mopinko]

141. skew the poll?

just trying to cover the bases. i ain't james zogby in disguise. yes, i know that it is a piece of propaganda. i wanted to find out what, if anything, is the truth behind it. no better place to check in with the a cross section of folks than here. not really much use to just answer this kind of propaganda with DID NOT, or so's your mother.

[WinkyDink]

110. I thought VV didn't wear their uniforms upon arrival back in LA?

[Unrepentant Fenian]

113. THIS POLL IS A BUNCH OF CRAP!!!!!!

Sammy boy is baiting you people. This poll looks like it's right out of a Freeper forum! All the answers (that imply first or second or third hand knowledge) point to spitting as the truth. He neglected the option that would apply to me. Where was the "I'm a V.N. Vet who was never spit on, nor do I know of any that were." option? He left it out for a reason, what do you think his reason was??????

[B Calm]

130. I wondered too why the OP didn't give the option for us vets

who came home and wasn't spit on, nor do we know of any that were. I was treated coldly by some older members in the American Legion, but no one spitted on me. I think it originated from Vietnam vets drinking lots of beer at the American Legion. By blaming the hippies they would get approval from the cold older vets at the local American Legion.

[Unrepentant Fenian]

132. Exactly!

B Calm,
I was going to add the exact same thing you said! All the WWII vets at the legion treated me like I wasn't a "real" Vet, and I wasn't in a "real" war. I never had a civilian talk down to me. Some asked me if I had ever killed anyone, but it was more out of concern of how it affected me. They also seemed interested to know if I was ever scared. All in all, the only people who ever disrespected me were the WWII Vets. I think all this spitting bullshit (and calling us baby killers) is spin made up by right wingers who probably didn't serve.

[mopinko]

140. i put as many options as i could think of, i ain't sammy, and

i ain't a he. i left it out because i didn't think of it. i did put an other. it is not bait. i am trying to stick up for an old hippie attack by the local freeper, just like i said in the op. :eyes:

[B Calm]

114. If it really did happen, it was done by WW 2 and Korean Veterans!

When I came home no one spit on me. It took me 20 years to join the VFW and the American Legion.

[MrSlayer]

117. Yes, absolutely.

We have to stop pretending that the taunts of "baby killer" and being spat upon were untrue because they are true. I know many people who served in that war and others who were mistreated simply for being in ROTC at the time. Yes it happened. It might not have been as rampant as some claim but it definitely went on.

[Oeditpus Rex]

118. I don't believe a bear has ever shat in the woods

I've never seen a bear shit in the woods. I've never read or heard of documentation of a bear shitting in the woods. I've never seen video or a still photo of a bear shitting in the woods. All I've ever heard is the repeated (and unanswered) question, "Does a bear shit in the woods?"

Ergo, bears do not shit in the woods.

[Indi Guy]

119. I was around in those days. I never saw it happen, but (given the times)...

...I wouldn't be surprised if it had.

This was the first generation to defy our gov. en mass.

At the time, it was not easy to delineate between the puppet-masters & the puppets.

We all know better now.

[LSK]

121. was John Kerry and Ron Kovic spat upon when they were leading the peace movement?

:shrug:

[Hobarticus]

122. Why no freeper outrage over Viet vets' treatment by American Legion?

I've read more often about Viet vets coming home and seeking out the Legion as a support group.

Instead they were treated as pariahs. That, basically, the older Legion vets (read WW2) "won" their war, and Viet vets were seen as somehow sub-par soldiers, because they "lost" their war. Over time it's gotten better, but I've read this more often than not.

Any Viet vets have this experience?

I bet this kind of thing happened far more often than getting spit on.

[HuskerDU]

127. Only by agent provocatuers. n/t

[TheUniverse]

131. I'm sure it happened somewhere.

When it happened which was probably rare, the media probably exaggerated it to make the anti war movement look bad. Kind of like Bill O'reilly does today and his message of the evil "secular progressives."

[Hoof Hearted]

133. I was around then and didn't see anything of the like. I think it's a RW myth. n/t

[alphafemale]

134. Sadly? Yes. But Id bet there were more Peace-nics spat on and more.

People can get really ugly.

[mopinko]

135. yeah, funny thing that.

shortly after this claim was made on the video that started this thread, said old hippie described a demonstration where the police disappeared and the klan descended, throwing rocks. :shrug:

[alphafemale]

137. 4 Dead in Oh-Hi-Oh

Who needs the Klan when you've got the National Guard.

[mdmc]

138. My buddy Manny says some super hot hippy chick spit on him

My uncle said that he more or less snook back into the USA from his last tour in Vietnam. No one spit on my uncle, but they sure didn't give him a parade or free drinks.

My buddy Manny says that he thought the hippy girl was coming over to kiss him, like the WWII photo of the sailor getting kissed upon his return. It didn't work out. "This is gonna be tough" is what he thought.