RE: violent crime in inner cities. IMO we DUers must stop dancing around the political issue and

[jody]

openly debate why crime rates are higher between racial groups as shown by the DoJ report below.

The race distribution of homicide victims and offenders differs by type of homicide
“In 2005, homicide victimization rates for blacks were 6 times higher than the rates for whites.”
“In 2005, offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites”

IMO it will take the combined efforts of the best and brightest among us with leaders from the black community to solve the problem.

One success story is the Boston Miracle inspires UK's gang fight

Scotland Yard's latest initiative to deal with youth gun crime is modeled on a successful gang-busting initiative in the US.

Within two years of implementing Operation Ceasefire in 1995, Boston had reclaimed the streets from the gangs.

The Boston Miracle, as it is known, reduced violent crime by about 50% in two years.
During a 29-month period covered by the operation, not a single teenager died in gun violence.

The paragraphs in the article are mostly single-sentence so I can't post much content and abide by DU's four paragraph rule.

I strongly encourage DUers to read the article because it's a success story.

On the other hand, the Boston Miracle (Operation Ceasefire) may have been a short lived success because Boston Police are now asking parents to approve warrantless searches for guns.

Police to search for guns in homes

Boston police are launching a program that will call upon parents in high-crime neighborhoods to allow detectives into their homes, without a warrant, to search for guns in their children's bedrooms.

The program, which is already raising questions about civil liberties, is based on the premise that parents are so fearful of gun violence and the possibility that their own teenagers will be caught up in it that they will turn to police for help, even in their own households.

In the next two weeks, Boston police officers who are assigned to schools will begin going to homes where they believe teenagers might have guns. The officers will travel in groups of three, dress in plainclothes to avoid attracting negative attention, and ask the teenager's parent or legal guardian for permission to search. If the parents say no, police said, the officers will leave.

If officers find a gun, police said, they will not charge the teenager with unlawful gun possession, unless the firearm is linked to a shooting or homicide.

IMO Obama now has the public's attention and he could provide the leadership needed to solve the problem that is causing more U.S. deaths in our "REAL WAR AGAINST TERRORISM IN U.S. CITIES" than occur in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As a minimum, Obama has the bully pulpit to make “inner city violent crime” a political issue and force Dem candidates and hopefully Repug candidates to recognize and take a stand on the issue.

Less anyone accuse me of being a bigot, etc. my cousins whom I love dearly and with whom I share a perfect Y DNA match are African-American. We share a common interest in finding ways to reduce violent crime in general and violent crime in inner cities in particular.

COMMENTS PLEASE

[liberalmuse]

1. Higher poverty rates = Higher crime rates

It's that simple.

[jody]

2. Assuming you are right, how do you propose to solve the poverty problem? n/t

[rucky]

3. Equal per-child funding of education, to start.

A system that's not based on property values in the neighborhood.

[jody]

5. Do you have a study that shows "Equal per-child funding of education" reduces poverty? I've ran the

stats for my state and find that per student spending do not affect test grades like graduation exams, ACT, and SAT.

[rucky]

7. You can't use H.S. test scores as an indicator...

unless you want to include the dropouts with Zeroes on those scores.

Look at early chilhood literacy. I have some stuff from grad school in book form. If you have access to ERIC, you should be able to dig something up.

[jody]

10. I also looked at 5th and 7th grade scores on reading and math. Per student spending made no

difference.

[rucky]

11. Then I would have to ask you to cite your studies.

Another thing to look out for is if Title I funds are counted into it - that'll jack up the numbers of the poorer schools, but the money is earmarked and most of it is non education related (lunches).

[jody]

14. I did not publish my research. I used it in LTTE and letters to the State Board of Education asking

them to show how a larger education budget would solve our state's low test scores.

One school district had two elementary schools both with the same per student budget. One of the schools had the highest performance in the state and the other had the lowest performance in the state.

An operating hypothesis would be that per student spending does not by itself produce high test scores in elementary schools.

The sad thing is the State School Board chaired by the governor could not answer my questions and my LTTE was published in the three largest state papers.

Sadly voters did not approve an increase in the budget.

I was also disappointed because I posed two simple questions that many voters also asked.

Given that every second of a school day is already filled with activities.
1. What new topics will be taught and what old topics removed from curriculum's?
2. What new teaching methods will be used and what old teaching methods discarded?

Absent answers to the above questions, most voters do not trust the state education department to spend more funds wisely so that students will receive a better education.

I know we have many professional teachers on DU and they will probably protest by saying the problem is more complex than I've suggested in my two simple questions.

I happen to agree with them but until professional educators can rise above a strident "SPEND MORE MONEY" campaign, I don't believe voters in my state will significantly increase the education budget.

[flashl]

17. From what I have seen, per student spending do not translate into

spending on the students. School administrative costs consume the "lions share" of dollars while dollars for resources in the classroom is decreasing.

Remember a few years ago, teachers were increasing personal spending to "resource" their classes, which in turn created speciality stores?

Now, teachers send home a list with students for "classroom supplies". Several schools in my community have established "partnerships" with local businesses to "resource" the classroom and school.

Check schools consolidation studies. You will find that there have only been "lip service" for improvements. The only beneficiaries in recent years have been the increase in core administration.

It’s bad. For instance, there have been reports for several years that schools in Detroit did not regularly have TOLIET paper.

[raccoon]

242. Good gosh, that sounds like Latin America.

"there have been reports for several years that schools in Detroit did not regularly have TOLIET paper."

[KitchenWitch]

9. It may not reduce poverty, but gives all children in the public schools equal footing.

[madeline_con]

85. Not really.

Too many kids arrive with mild to severe brain damage as a result of socioeconomic factors related to poverty. Malnutrition, maternal drug abuse, child abuse, etc. are all represented in poor communities. No matter how much is spent per child, there are factors that cannot be changed, and have done their damage befor the child even enters school.

[Karenina]

146. The population of "inner-city" blacks (OP topic)

is one that has been traumatized over GENERATIONS. This is also true for EVERY demographic in the U.S. that has been subjected to grinding poverty, marginalization, insufficient education, health care and nutrition and EVERYTHING that those conditions produce. IT IS A CLASS ISSUE.

YOU GET IT, Madeline, the damage is DONE before these children ever enter a classroom. Ever wonder what happened to Head Start? ;-)

[TheWraith]

168. Yes, but that takes too long, and has some drawbacks.

Increased education allows a positive-feedback cycle, but for it to work properly, there needs to be available jobs. That's a prerequisite for halting losses to gang violence and the drug trade. Even if only basic reliable manufacturing jobs, it would allow for stability and an increased economic base that would make it practical to provide for the younger generation and keep them out of violent alternatives. As it stands, those people who do manage to get and keep viable jobs rarely have anything to pass on to their children, leaving them in the same position.

Anyone seen the movie "Bulworth"? At one point, the title character is listening to a self-hating South Central drug kingpin (played by the always great Don Cheadle) justify himself over using children and teens as drug runners. One of the things Cheadle's character talks about is the lack of other opportunities: "How's a young man gonna meet his financial responsibilities workin' at motherfuckin' Burger King?"

[Karenina]

190. Does the Meth Culture in land-locked Amurikkka

represent WHITE CULTURE??? It's a problem, oder?

[TheWraith]

244. I fail to see the connection between what you said and what I said.

Except that yes, meth use derives from some of the same problems on a less intense scale. Rural areas suffer the same kinds of issues as cities, i.e. poor education and lack of economic opportunity, albeit proportional to population. Where there's less optimism and opportunity for the future, it breeds an environment ripe for substance abuse.

[liberalmuse]

8. Education.

I don't think you can completely solve poverty, and I don't like the term 'War on Poverty' (or on anything, really), but a start would be to end the Iraq war and focus on rebuilding our infrastructure (a cross-country, environmentally friendly high-speed rail system would be nice) and ensuring all Americans have access to health care. That would create more jobs. Also, affordable college tuition would help. Bush has cut so many social programs, and that is not the answer.

We need to purge all schools of the 'No Child Left Behind' fiasco and restructure the entire school system, which is still a relic of the early industrial age. Throw out the rows of desks. Teach our kids how to think and solve problems creatively along with the 3 R's. We need schools to be more multi-cultural as far as the cirriculum, and we need to throw out most textbooks. Education seems to be the key in helping to lift people out of poverty.

[Selatius]

15. I think more opportunities for education are needed.

With the cost of tuition rising higher than the median wage, the ones being hurt most are the working poor with relatively few financial resources.

[jody]

21. I assume you mean college tuition. Don't most large inner cities have public colleges with

low cost tuition?

The OP was about violent crime in inner cities and some/many people believe a contributing factor is poor education in K-12.

It's a puzzle to me however that rural schools in the south, with which I am familiar, may have weaker K-12 schools than large inner cities, e.g. D.C., but the violent crime rates in large inner cities are higher than in southern rural areas. :shrug:

CONJECTURE: If a student graduates from high school with a good education, they will be able to find a decent job and/or go to college or tech school and most important, they will probably be motivated to take one of those paths leading to a satisfying life.

[madeline_con]

86. According to the rural education studies,

most rural kids are White, Hispanic, or Native American.

[jody]

96. I don't believe that's true in Southern states. n/t

[ThePowerofWill]

107. You would be wrong.

For the biggest part blacks in the South have moved to the city limits. Poor whites tend to be out in the trailer parks on the outside of town limits. Hispanics are fairly evenly spread.

[jody]

108. Sorry but I'm not wrong for the area around me. Have a nice day! n/t

[ThePowerofWill]

114. Thats just looking at your area.

My statement is very true on the broader range.

You have a great day as well.

[flashl]

20. This economic news recognizes another problem

The greasy ladder

Nov 22nd 2007
From The Economist print edition

Middle-income blacks are downwardly mobile. Why?

The Economic Mobility Project, an arm of the impeccably non-partisan Pew Charitable Trusts, compares contemporary Americans' family income (based on surveys conducted between 1996 and 2003) with their parents' (between 1968 and 1972). Overall, the picture is cheerful. Two-thirds of Americans who were children in 1968 and are now in their 30s or 40s enjoy higher household income than their parents did then. The same is true for black Americans. But black upward mobility consists largely of people from poor families moving up. Blacks born halfway up the income ladder, by contrast, show an alarming tendency to fall down. Only 31% of blacks who were children in 1968 and whose parents were in the middle fifth of America's income distribution now earn more than their parents did. The average household income for this group has actually declined—from $53,700 (in 2006 dollars) to $44,900. Nearly half fell all the way into the bottom fifth.

In this "class", its NOT their education that is the "source" of their economic woes, bureau of labor statistics shows that blacks with the same degrees earn less.

Land of Broken Dreams

We’re not who we think we are.

The American self-image is suffused with the golden glow of opportunity. We think of the United States as a land of unlimited possibility, not so much a classless society but as a place where class is mutable—a place where brains, energy and ambition are what counts, not the circumstances of one’s birth. But three important new studies suggest that Horatio Alger doesn’t live here anymore.

The Economic Mobility Project, an ambitious research initiative led by the Pew Charitable Trusts, looked at the economic fortunes of a large group of families over time, comparing the income of parents in the late 1960s with the income of their children in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Here’s the finding that jumps out at me:

“The ‘rags to riches’ story is much more common in Hollywood than on Main Street. Only 6 percent of children born to parents with family income at the very bottom move to the very top.”

That’s right, just 6 percent of children born to parents who ranked in the bottom fifth of the study sample, in terms of income, were able to bootstrap their way into the top fifth. Meanwhile, an incredible 42 percent of children born into that lowest quintile are still stuck at the bottom, having been unable to climb a single rung of the income ladder.

...

“Both left and right can care about this,” said John E. Morton, Pew’s managing director for economic policy. “Traditionally, Americans have been ready to accept high levels of inequality because of our belief in the American dream. What happens if we can’t believe in the dream any longer?”

When the three studies were released last week, most reporters focused on the finding that African-Americans born to middle-class or upper middle-class families are earning slightly less, in inflation-adjusted dollars, than did their parents. Julia B. Isaacs, the Brookings scholar who authored the reports, said the reason for this anomaly is still unclear; overall, the data suggest that blacks are somewhat less upwardly mobile than whites, although about two-thirds of African-Americans do earn more than their parents did.

We are "unclear" why blacks with the "same" degree is earning less than their peers? Right.

[jody]

22. Interesting point. Do people with jobs & degrees make up a large proportion of violent criminals?n/t

[flashl]

23. If you choose to compare Perdue executives to corner drug dealers

Or,

the criminals at HMO who kill millions with a pen who deny health care.

Poverty is the worst form of violence. Mohandas Gandhi.

[jody]

24. I understand but how is that relevant to reducing violent crime in inner cities? n/t

[flashl]

26. Understand which?

The violence of poverty or the drug economy?

[jody]

30. Both but neither shed any light on the OP specific problem of violent crime in inner cities. n/t

[flashl]

32. Interesting. You can dissassociate a drug economy from violence. n/t

[jody]

34. I see the context of my post was not clear. I should have asked,

"Do people with jobs & degrees (from the black community in inner cities) make up a large proportion of violent criminals?"

I don't see the relevance of your reply "If you choose to compare Perdue executives to corner drug dealers Or, the criminals at HMO who kill millions with a pen who deny health care."

[flashl]

37. Interesting deduction ...

"openly debate why crime rates are higher between racial groups as shown by the DoJ report below" = "Do people with jobs & degrees (from the black community in inner cities) make up a large proportion of violent criminals?"

Maybe you explain how racial groups now equate to blacks with jobs and degrees in a re-segregated U.S.

Perdue and HMO relevancy.

Perdue sold oxycotin for 12 or more years, earned billions, and created oxycontin addicts across the country. OxyContin rivaled street drugs. Perdue executives received "fines" for "mislabeling" OxyContin.

Somehow the "war on drugs" drag net pick up on the inner-city corner drug dealers but not a pharmaceutical with drugs on the same street corner.

HMO is related of healthcare disparites of blacks with and without insurance.

[jody]

38. Not a deduction, just a question re your introduction of extraneous players. n/t

[flashl]

40. Let me get this straight

You have taken DOJ stats of only black homicides.

Ignore DOJ stats of increase hate crimes against blacks, re-direct attention to black-black homicides, ignore white-white homicides rates, ignore scio-economic disparities driven by public policies, ignore who and how drugs enters black communities, pretend there is no association of violence and drugs, and then offer MORE punative social engineering in the form of a door-door policing solution in mainly black neighborhoods.

And, you are wondering why you are receiving "extraneous" information?

[jody]

42. I'm sorry you don't want to participate in discussing the issue I posed in the OP. Have a good day.

:hi:

[flashl]

46. Good luck finding an answer from a skewed focus. n/t

[Karenina]

147. Flashl, the SKEWED American Dream focus

"CONJECTURE: If a student graduates from high school with a good education, they will be able to find a decent job and/or go to college or tech school and most important, they will probably be motivated to take one of those paths leading to a satisfying life."

Another pernicious lie of Amurikkkan mythology. It's the reason so many focus on "the other" as having illegitimately STOLEN THEIR BIRTHRIGHT!!! Never mind "the other" has inherited the same birthright... Will anyone realize WHO the REAL CULPRITS ARE??? Not so long as racism divides...

[madeline_con]

87. African Americans with degrees and good jobs

usually move out of the inner cities.

[jody]

97. That's my experience also. n/t

[noiretextatique]

169. our parents left the inner city

because they had the means to do so. they left in the 70's...so did most who could afford to leave. my nieces and nephews never lived in the ghetto. i think my experience is common among people my age (late forties).

[Skittles]

126. f*** yes

look how many people those degreed bastards bush and cheney have killed; add to that the policies of rich white f***s that kill ordinary Americans daily and suffice it to say the REAL criminal statistics would show that degreed people very much if not directly, indirectly contribute to violent crime

[raccoon]

243. Not to mention the Kenny Lays and Andy Fastows.

I'm sure there are many others who haven't gotten caught.

[AndyTiedye]

27. The Demise of Affirmative Action May Have Something to Do With It

combined with lack of enforcement of anti-discrimination laws.

[flashl]

28. Agree.

But, the mere mention of "Affirmative Action" will stir discontent.

[jody]

33. The majority of violent crime is intra-racial so how does affirmative action cause violent crime in

black communities in inner cities?

[AndyTiedye]

48. I Was Responding to the "Downward Mobility" Post

The majority of violent crime is intra-racial so how does affirmative action cause violent crime in black communities in inner cities?

The demise of affirmative action may be a cause of the "downward mobility" described in the post to which I was responding.

Some of the downward mobility is due to the loss of the opportunities that affirmative action opened up.

[jody]

49. Mea culpa, have a nice day. n/t

[billbuckhead]

186. Most "inner" cities are becoming gentrified with less and less poor people

The "bad" neighborhoods will soon all be in the suburbs like the rest of the world.

[Mutineer]

82. Oh yeah, like the crime rate went down when affirmative action

was in effect?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

113. hmmmm...

There's racism, obviously.

But unless we're also talking about grade point averages and schools attended, I'm not sure that comparing "degrees" gives a clear picture of the actual differences. Kids with a poor start in life may still get into college, but they often don't do as well.

[AlertLurker]

4. Formula does not account for Republican recidivism.

[H2O Man]

6. I'd start

with the now infamous Moynihan Report. At the time, many liberals were upset by it. Today, anyone with insight can see how it applies to Americans not due to "race" per say, but due to the economic factors that are often related closely to skin color and ethnic identity.

[jody]

12. Thanks, “The Negro Family: The Case For National Action” published March 1965 AKA Moynihan Report

can be found at the DOL link below.

The Negro Family: The Case For National Action

[H2O Man]

170. I added more

on post # 167 about the importance of family structure.

[flashl]

13. We never demonstrated real interest to answer the question:

"What happens to kids who learn as babies to dodge bullets and step over dead corpses on the way to school? -Lois TIMNICK (1989)"

Compare the response of the Virgina Tech shooting and this:

VIOLENCE AND TRAUMA IN THE INNER CITY

"From an early age, children living in the inner cities are exposed frequently to the use of drugs, guns, arson, and random violence. They witness injury, suffering, and death, and they respond to these events with fear and grief, often experiencing dramatic ruptures in their development. The list of psychological reactions is long and grim: hatred for self, profound loss of trust in the community and the world, tattered internalized moral values and ethics of caring, and a breaking down of the inner and outer sense of security and of reality. They are particularly vulnerable to traumatic stress illnesses and to related behavioral and academic abnormalities (Gardner, 1971; Parson, 1994; van der Kolk, 1987)."

We are talking about generations that grew up in an asphalt jungle.

Now, the solution is?

If officers find a gun, police said, they will not charge the teenager with unlawful gun possession, unless the firearm is linked to a shooting or homicide.

So, the answer is not increased neighborhood policing. Yet, we are comfortable with removing guns from residences that allows predators to take control.

The "problem" that persists in "high crime" neighborhoods is from public policy decisions made years ago to reduce effective policing in these neighborhoods.

Invite the beginning of another round of urban warfare in these neighborhoods at your own peril.

[Beerboy]

16. it seems to justify and perpetuate racism. n/t.

[ldf]

18. looks like we all

are still dancing.

:shrug:

[jody]

19. Agree.

:thumbsup:

[slackmaster]

25. Maybe the Internet can save us

Somehow.

Happy Thanksgiving Jody, BTW.

[jody]

35. And a Happy Thanksgiving to you also.

:pals:

[fishwax]

50. what would constitute not dancing?

Just curious ...

[INDIA]

29. I'm white, and therefore I'll be labeled a racist if I say anything...

..so I guess I'll let Bill Cosby say it for me. His opinion on the current state of African American culture is absolutely spot on, and I agree with him 100%. His interview on Larry King made me wish he was a bit younger so he could run for public office in a predominantly African American district. And as I recall even HE was called a racist by some for expressing his opinion on the matter!

Basically, it's a combination of a lousy economic situation and a lousy culture/community standards.

[jody]

31. Has Obama adopted Bill Cosby's views? n/t

[Celeborn Skywalker]

44. Well,

I'd say generalizing that African-American culture is "lousy" does border on racism.

[fishwax]

51. .

:thumbsup:

[Evoman]

58. Your use of "border" is very diplomatic.

I'd just say right out that it's racist.

[fishwax]

59. I took it as a nice bit of understatement

But, yeah, I agree with you ...

[jody]

64. See #62. n/t

[jody]

63. See #62. n/t

[jody]

62. Where did Cynthia Tucker and Walter Williams go wrong?

BILL COSBY'S POINTED REMARKS MAY SPARK MUCH-NEEDED DEBATE by Cynthia Tucker

Three Cheers for Bill Cosby, Part II by Walter Williams.

Bill Cosby On Blacks

Why do DUers still dance around the issue of violent crime in inner city communities that is predominantly intra-racial.

Enough already, does no one want to put the issue on the table and discuss ways to prosecute a War on Intra-Racial Violent Crime that is devastating a valuable segment of society?

I read in this thread mostly more blame-game and weak platitudes.

Why doesn't DU's vaunted Activist HQ take the lead in fighting this War on Terror in our own inner cities?

With troops like DUers, I would not lead an attack against a prekindergarten force.

One more martini and I'll really say how mad I am at the continued betrayal of millions of African-Americans who are just trying to survive in inner cities and praying their children can take one small step away from a life of misery.

[fishwax]

66. what would constitute not dancing?

You say that DUers are dancing around the issue and then that they're still dancing around the issue, but I don't see that in this thread. So I'm curious what would constitute not dancing?

[jody]

67. I'm already on my second martini so I'll forgo a reasoned reply until later but my first thought

is that Obama is superbly positioned to bring national attention on the problem of violent crime in intra-racial, inner-city communities.

Perhaps I'm dead wrong with that view but I haven't read a post in this thread that talks about that possibility.

Pure speculation, but what if Obama added Bill Cosby to Ophra Winfrey as his adviser?

[fishwax]

69. well, I don't think that addresses what DUers need to do not to dance

And I'm not sure why Obama should add Bill Cosby to his advisers.

Are you saying that Cosby doesn't dance around the problem? Is that because he was critical of black culture? Are you saying that to not criticize black culture is to dance around the issue? You quoted an AJC editorial writer and a Rush Limbaugh substitute in support of Cosby's position, but that hardly makes Cosby right.

A lot of DUers have been critical of what Cosby said ... does that mean they were dancing around the issue? A lot of commentators have pointed out that Bill Cosby's speech misstated the degree to which the black community, including those in poverty, are committed to education--does that mean they were dancing around the issue?

[jody]

71. I've read and reread every post in this thread and I'm sure I missed point or two but I don't recall

a single substantive suggestion re how to the War on Intra-Racial, Violent Crime in Inner Cities.

[noiretextatique]

150. by virtue of his skin color?

anyone, who is interested, is superbly positioned to do the same thing.

[Karenina]

153. Hallelujah!

:bounce:

[jody]

172. "skin color" is not the criteria, he commands media attention and could bring experts from all

segments of society to fight the war on violent crime in inner cities.

IMO Obama is uniquely qualified as a presidential candidate to make this issue one of the most important for the next presidential election whether he is the Democratic candidate or not.

If people want to stick their head in the sand and ignore the problem for another four years, so be it but IMO it will be 2011/2012 before the opportunity presents itself to focus voter attention on reality, the War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities.

[noiretextatique]

173. obama is the only one talking about it, i'll give you that

and of course, i would support any effort he made in that regard. i am not sure how successful he will be given the renewed interest certain memes, (e.g., pathological culture, genetic inferiority) which you can find right here in this thread. i don't doubt obama's sincerity, i doubt america's willingness.

[jody]

176. Please see my post #174. n/t

[superduperfarleft]

68. My issue with what Bill Cosby said

was the context in which he said it.

Whether we like it or not, Bill Cosby, in his drive to present "positive role models," is known for a show that in my opinion completely washes over the larger issues of racial and economic inequality in the black community. The larger issues are not and never have been about baggy pants or backwards hats or african-sounding names. I'm saying this as a white person, but the Cosby Show came off looking like just one more "non-threatening colored person." Shows like Good Times had just as many positive messages about the scourge of drugs and crime, but they did it in a manner that didn't tell people, "Buy a big house and 'act white' and all your problems will be solved." And there's nothing white people like more than having their own complicity in our fucked-up society be absolved by none other than a black person.

Many african-americans have been saying similar things (maybe in a much more tactful way) about black people needing to take responsibility for their own destinies for years, and yet they haven't received the same negative reaction from the black community or the same sense of relief from the white community. That's telling, I think.

And unfortunately, whenever white people enter the conversation, they start talking about rap music and "racism" against white people. Talk about missing the point...

[jody]

70. The issue of intra-racial, violent crime in inner cities can IMO be solved only if black leaders

take the lead augmented with everyone else who wants to contribute money or labor. By the way, that's exactly what happened in the civil rights movement during the 1950s - 1960s and it was successful.

IMO the problems with Islamic Iraq accustomed to non-democratic governments will not be solved by Christian presidents trying to impose U.S. versions of a republican form of democracy.

In like fashion, IMO the problems of intra-racial, violent crime in inner cities will not be solved by white outsiders trying to impose their version of Christian social and business systems. That invariably means African-Americans must learn to live like whites and risk losing the very essence of black culture.

We saw that happen with native Americans from which we kidnapped children, placed them in schools and trained them to act like white people with the implicit understanding they would always be second class. I don't support such goals.

I don't know the answer but for me, the War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities is much more important than an amorphous War on Terror promulgated by a rogue president.

If DUers are as smart as they think they are as evidenced by their critical posts, then surely among such brilliant intellects, someone can suggest government policies that can win the War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities -- can't they?

[superduperfarleft]

72. I think you kind of answered your own question.

"someone can suggest government policies that can win the War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities -- can't they?"

I'll try. Unfortunately our federal and local governments are mostly just old white boy clubs, populated by people of privilege who have no idea how to relate to poor blacks, or even poor whites for that matter. We need to distribute basic resources to black communities, and let them make the decision as to how to use them. The last thing they need is more rich white people telling them what to do with their lives.

My suggestion, and I resisted making it since most people react in horror when I say it, is a comprehensive program of slavery reparations. Starting with a genuine apology from our government and the numerous corporations who benefited directly from the slave labor of African peoples, and ending with a full investment into largely black communities (it isn't 40 acres and a mule, but a free college education could be a start) which basically provides black communities with the resources to make their own decisions, I would hope that would be a start. I'd even be open to cash payments to african-americans with slave ancestry (which would be most of them) in an amount that could approximate the modern-day value of the whole "40 acres and a mule" thing, much like Canada has done for its Chinese immigrants who were subject to unjust treatment and taxes earlier in the 20th century.

Combine that with the end of drug prohibition, and a more rehabilitative approach to crime as opposed to punitive, and I'd hope we could also reduce the number of black people that are used as a source of cheap labor for our prison systems.

[jody]

73. Thanks, that's the most reasonable post so far. Do you think we should encourage African-American

enclaves, e.g China Town, or should we encourage black families and businesses to disperse with the hope they will be assimilated in society as a whole?

The latter seems to be working for the Hispanic community in California, Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and elsewhere from my limited travels.

[superduperfarleft]

77. I'm going to stop after this

because you seem far more qualified on this issue because of the activist work you've referenced below, I am I'm totally getting in over my head.

I don't think we should necessarily encourage black families to "assimilate." I think the drive to assimilate everyone else is one of the biggest problems of the American attitude, that a culture can't exist on its own, it has to be assimilated into "American" culture (which is truly white culture, let's be honest.) If they choose to do so, that's fine, but as a white person, it's not my call, it is their's.

I read about Malcolm X realizing the futility of integration, because he tried, and failed, at being seen as an equal by white america. I read about Tim Wise, who's staunchly anti-racist grandmother began using the n-word as she descended into Alzheimers, proving that even the most vociferous anti-racist still has the virus of racism programmed into them by our eurocentric society. I think white people in our society have been so deeply infected with the sickness of racism that I don't blame black people at all for not trusting us, for just wanting to withdraw into their own communities, because it's been proven throughout history that white people make weak allies, and will withdraw into the comfortable blanket of white privilege as soon as they are required to make any real sacrifices.

I wish I did, but I don't have an answer, and it's just depressing to think about. I see on DU that whenever the subject of white privilege or the sordid history of Europeans in this country is met by mockery and a complete dismissal of the concerns of people of color. If this is the prevailing attitude on a self-described progressive forum, what hope do we really have in the world at large?

on edit: Thanks for this discussion though. It's nice to have a civil exchange of ideas after what I usually see around here.

[jody]

80. "the prevailing attitude on a self-described progressive forum, what hope do we really have in the

world at large?"

My sentiments exactly, if we can't solve our own problems, the world seems doomed.

I recall reading an editorial long ago in which the writer suggested the United States was an experiment to see whether a multicultural society could live together in peace and harmony and prosper. If we fail in that experiment, then there is little hope for the world.

I've come to believe the author was precisely right.

A sincere thanks for the exchange.

Please have a peaceful evening.

Fair winds and following seas on your journey through life. :hi:

[Karenina]

130. I believe your heart is in the right place

however find the approach as appalling as the post that follows this one. (#78) This board is predominately white and really quite primitive when it comes to issues of race, hence very few POC post here. That is the first bit of insensitivity; a clarion call to whites about what should be "done" about violent blacks. The second insensitivity is the dismissal of the points brought up by POC who are bold enough to bother.

With that I've said my piece. Please return to your regularly scheduled programming.

[jody]

134. "insensitivity"? Please tell me how recognizing that violent crime rates in the black community is

seven times that of the white community and most of it is black on black crime is insensitive?

How insensitive is my opinion that solutions pushed by white problem solvers for the "war on inner-city violent crime" are obviously not working and that black leaders need to take charge and white supporters follow for a change.

IMO, the most insensitive attitude is to fail to ignore my observations stated above on violent crime in inner cities and keep pushing the same old crime prevention programs that have never worked and show little promise of ever working.

To do otherwise would lend support to failed federal policies like Bush's failed war in Iraq as well as the subject war against violent crime in inner cities.

Note, a military commander uses different strategies and tactics for different combat engagements, e.g. ground assault on desert terrain with tanks versus unconventional guerrilla operations in the mountains of Afghanistan.

For that basic reason, it seems unlikely that law enforcement methods that are very effective in Cheyenne, Wyoming would work in Detroit, Michigan. Of course I could be wrong. :shrug:

My experience has convinced me if you can't solve a problem after using the same methods for several decades, then it's time to try something different which probably means putting someone else in charge of the project.

Of course that's my opinion and I see you and I disagree.

That's life in the Democratic party.

[Karenina]

138. Reading comprehension is your friend, Jody.

We agree on many points, my observation is that you're not listening. BTW are you passing? ;-)

[jody]

149. My reaction was to your statement below that I took as a suggestion I was insensitive.

"That is the first bit of insensitivity; a clarion call to whites about what should be "done" about violent blacks. The second insensitivity is the dismissal of the points brought up by POC who are bold enough to bother."

Perhaps you were making another point and I carelessly read your post in the midst of leaving this morning.

When you ask about passing, sorry no but I do have cousins of color and direct ancestors who were among the founding fathers. None of that matters however.

[Karenina]

154. Don't tase me bro, we've both been here a l-o-n-g time.

I reserve the right to tease you, thinking you understand and you have the right to react however you see fit. :hug:

[jody]

156. "a l-o-n-g time is right". I wonder how many DUers from the 2001 class are still active? n/t

[INDIA]

78. Argue against me here. Because I wish I was wrong.

It is more acceptable in the African American community to have a child out of wedlock, go to jail, drop out of high school, or be unemployed, than it would in an Asian American,Hispanic, Amish, White community. When the community as a whole accepts this type of behavior as normalcy, yes, it is a lousy culture. And the community NEEDS to stand up here because so many families are being run by single mothers. I've heard directly from African Americans before that people acting outside of this norm, graduating school and moving up in the world, are derogatively referred to as "acting white." That's a problem.

Cosby himself outlined how young African Americans are looking up to athletes and rappers, who a lot of the time, are horrible role models. BET/MTV and pro sports are only too happy to continue pushing these role models and images upon impressionable young minds because it makes them $$$.

[jody]

81. I'm disappointed because so few DUers engage you in reasoned debate. n/t

[SemiCharmedQuark]

122. Have a reasoned debate with someone who just labeled the black culture "lousy"?

How the hell are you supposed to do that? Can you have a reasoned debate with Pat Robertson or David Duke? You can't reason away personal, bigoted beliefs.

On Edit, here is a nice article though. It's crosslinked from the AA forum:

http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Content/2002-11/26wise.cfm

My Thanks to Lurking Argyle for Finding it.

[jody]

124. SemiCharmedQuark you have nearly 5,000 posts on DU. Surely by now you know that reasoned debate is

possible even though you believe your opponents have "personal, bigoted beliefs."

Perhaps you should remind your self that opponents may believe yours are "personal, bigoted beliefs" also.

[Karenina]

166. Jody, I truly hope you've re-read and re-read this thread

and can find a way to diplomatically back away from defending the egregious racist posts it has spawned.

[jody]

171. Sorry but I can't back away from the issue. If we on DU can't rise above spouting such racist posts

as have been posted in in this thread, then DU is useless as an internet discussion forum.

The issue I cited in the OP is very real and I now recognize the War on violent crime in inner cities is more important than Bush's war in Iraq or war on terror. In spite of that obvious fact at least IMO, DU threads abound spouting mostly nonsense with an occasional gem post about the war in Iraq and war on terror.

I don't know how best to fight violent crime in inner cities but I do know what is being tried is not working. My neighbors have fled the inner city and its criminal element but they are lucky; teachers, retired military, retired postmen, law enforcement officers, management types, nurses, lab technicians, college professors, etc.. I talk with them frequently about this problem openly and without racism rearing its ugly head.

I wish DU would mature enough to discuss such problems as violent crime in inner cities without one side engaging in ad hominem attacks on the other by accusing them of bigotry and the other side replying in kind. A pox on all who use those discussion snipes.

[Karenina]

184. Jody, do you not realize that

what has been happening in American cities for DECADES is the SAME PROGRAM that has been applied in Iraq? Your OP focused on VIOLENT BLACK FOLKS, with "stats" AND without ANY CONTEXT of how we got here from there.

In future those who survive the genocide visited upon them by your gubmint and *MIC may well and rightly so attempt to claim their pound of flesh. You should consider yourselves LUCKY that the "inner city black community" has turned its anger inward. Who cares about THEM anyway? And GUESS WHAT? The "BLACK" community is NOT a monolith consisting ONLY of urban poor.

[jody]

195. Now Karenina, it would have required a long monograph to include every jot and tittle you apparently

want, i.e. "AND without ANY CONTEXT of how we got here from there."

The question I posed in the OP as I now see it is how do we fight the War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities that is killing blacks at a rate seven times that of whites?

I hope we at least agree on that fact reported by the Department of Justice.

You and I apparently disagree on whether we need to place that problem in some historical context.

My position is that most well read people which I hope includes all DUers already know relevant history that produced the current hell hole in some inner cities. Consequently I see no reason to include that in my OP.

[fishwax]

197. well that was patronizing

Yeesh.

This "War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities" that you're proposing follows a war ON the urban poor that has been going on for generations. As other posters have posted elsewhere, this is a generational problem, and the current situation in our urban areas is a result of DECADES of drug policy, reduction of social service, institutional racism, and the list goes on. That may just be a "jot and tittle" to you, but it's REALITY for many.

[jody]

199. fishwax, what is your problem? So you already know the history -- why not made a substantive

contribution to the topic of the thread.

[fishwax]

201. My problem? What do you mean?

I don't have a problem. I found your response patronizing and said so. What's your problem?

And I think I have made a substantive contribution to this thread. I think understanding the history of a problem is pretty important if you're going to actually solve the problem.

The way this thread has gone, it seems to me, is that when people responded talking about these historical contexts, you intimated that DUers were still just dancing around the problem. But when people have posted attacks on black culture, they get an attaboy, a thanks for the contribution, a lament that DUers don't engage reasonably with people making sweeping dismissals of an entire culture as lousy. If that's what it takes to make a "substantive contribution" in your judgment, I guess I'll never get there.

[jody]

204. My response was not to you. n/t

[fishwax]

207. what's your point? It's a subthread on a message board, and I responded

this means I have a problem? :shrug:

[jody]

208. Then I suggest you learn how to live with your problem. n/t

[fishwax]

209. What problem? n/t

[SemiCharmedQuark]

224. Well if I ever call an entire culture "lousy" I sure hope someone would recognize it as bigoted

Just as if someone posted links to Stormfront, I'm sure people would recognize THAT as bigoted.


Also, thank you for proving my point. You posted the OP and anyone that disagrees with your assertions is "dancing around the issue". Anyone that agrees with you? Hooray! Best post of the thread! You posted the OP with a particular viewpoint. You don't want discussion. You want pats on the back.

[jody]

250. No, I want a discussion of possible solutions. That's apparently beyond the ability of many who

replied to this thread.

[fishwax]

84. by what standard do you measure that it's more accepted or that the community as a whole

accepts this type of behavior as normalcy? I reject that African Americans don't care about education or that African Americans and African American communities don't work to improve such conditions in their own communities.

"I've heard directly from African Americans before that people acting outside of this norm, graduating school and moving up in the world, are derogatively referred to as "acting white." That's a problem."

Fine. I've heard directly from African Americans that the whole "acting white" bit is BS. And I've seen pretty convincing evidence that young African Americans aren't the only ones who look up to rappers and athletes. And I still agree with the assessment that dismissing African American culture as "lousy" is racist.

[INDIA]

89. It's basic human behavior.

People will generally behave in a way that is acceptable to their family/community culture. There is a much higher rate of out of wedlock births in AA communities compared to other minority communities. It's a cultural, not a genetic or physical difference that causes said behavior. And a culture that is plagued by higher crime rates, illiteracy, out of wedlock births etc., is in need of some serious soul searching. I'm blaming it on culture and economics. If I blamed it on genetics or physical differences? Yeah, then I'd be a racist asshole. I don't believe I am.

Now I'm of course painting with a broad brush here. I recently moved to a city with an outstanding Historically Black College, and a devoted alumni base that stays close by. There is a real black middle class, a low crime rate, and high graduation rate among the African American community. It's a great situation, and it makes me happy as hell to see African American families driving nice cars and working at high paying jobs. But unfortunately, the community I live in is the exception to the rule. Every other place I've lived with a large AA community is plagued by the same problems I've mentioned before.

[fishwax]

90. so the fact that it happens is proof that it's acceptable?

That argument seems pretty circular. If it happens in the community then the community approves? There are many people and many communities working to change dropout rates, incarceration rates, etc. precisely because they don't consider it acceptable.

[INDIA]

93. If it happens in the absurdly high percentages that it does...

then yes, there must be at least a tacit approval within the community. I believe somewhere around 60-70% of African American children are being born into single parent homes. That makes it the norm, yes? Wouldn't you say that for some type of behavior to be the norm in a community, it must also be accepted within the community?

[fishwax]

99. not really

Wouldn't you say that for some type of behavior to be the norm in a community, it must also be accepted within the community?

I think what is normal and/or common within a community can be due to factors outside their control.

[Karenina]

215. Please provide a LINK for that assertion.

[Evoman]

88. You keep looking at the symptoms, not the disease.

"child out of wedlock, go to jail, drop out of high school, or be unemployed"

You denigrate a people, you steal their culture, you use them as slaves, you keep them down, and then you magically expect them, without giving them a crumb, to somehow climb out of a hole that your still digging. Not only that, but you somehow expect them to be like YOU, the "the culture" that put them in the ghettos in the first place!

The last thing America needs is more white culture. It isn't the blacks who are outsourcing jobs. It isn't the blacks who voted in George Bush. Why the hell would we want more white culture?

I know I'm going to be flamed for this. But you know what? Fuck it. Fuck anybody who thinks that their white culture is superior, who thinks that they have some sort of right to criticize another's culture when theirs has been responsible for most of the worlds problems. I'm fairly sick of the racist bullshit I put up with here.

(Personal not to India3, in my second paragraph when I say "you" I am not referring to you personally).

[INDIA]

92. It's not "white" culture to get an education, get a job....

raise a stable family and not commit crimes. That should be a goal for all Americans; Asian, Indian, white, Hispanic, whatever, should strive to attain. Screw it, that should be a goal for any HUMAN regardless of nationality or race.

Do you really think that Asian Americans weren't denigrated and oppressed? There are many examples of offensive Asian stereotypes, denigration and oppression, especially during our wars with Japan and Vietnam. Japanese Americans were put into prison camps by FDR as recently as 1945! Yet for some reason, and I believe it to be cultural, Asian Americans have largely been largely successful in American society.

People are not genetically or mentally different. We're all the same. We're all born with the same basic aptitudes and abilities What shapes us and our behavior is our communities and families, aka, our culture. (Economics are of course a factor too.)

[Evoman]

94. Okay, let's see.

Shitty, underfunded schools? Check. No investment in their community? Check. Denigration of their "culture" as if they were monolithic? Check.

Let's face facts. You can't keep kicking somebody down year after year, decade after decade, century after century, and then blame THEM for being bruised. Then instead of helping them, you yell at them "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING LAYING DOWN THERE? WHY DON'T YOU GET THE FUCK UP?".

The difference between Asian culture and black culture is that Asians were never enslaved, never had their culture stripped from them, and were never treated as savages. The closest situation we have to black people in america is the subjugation of the native american people. And we see how great they're doing in the U.S. or Canada.

[jody]

100. My comment may not be precisely on point but I've observed African-Americans who grew up in

poverty-rich, inner cities join the military and quickly merge with other racial/ethnic groups into a cohesive band of brothers.

Upon retirement, they typically move into middle or upper middle class jobs and communities usually well away from their humble beginnings.

Today I would not encourage any young man or woman to join the military but I've seen tens of thousands of young men and woman make a successful journey from poverty into well paid civilian jobs and a satisfying life by taking advantage of the military to jump start them on the path to success.

That's my opinion based on decades of intimate association with military personnel.

Is it possible that one key factor is whether or not a young man or woman can leave the community that in some way prevents them from reaching their full potential?

[Evoman]

101. Come and fight a white man's war, and if your still alive after, we'll

throw a little money your away.

Whatever, dude. I'm pretty sick of this shit, and I am in a foul mood, so I am being more harsh to you than I need to be. But I just can't get my head around blaming the victim....and that is what black people are in racist america. A victim.

[jody]

106. I agree. I was trying to illustrate how people I personally knew, a very limited sample, who

left the hostile inner-city environment succeeded in getting their life together and achieved considerable success. I work out in the gym every day with a dozen men and women who have done precisely that.

My problem is whether they are a biased sample or a representative sample of what could be achieved.

I am not touting the military as the path but rather to ask whether the key is actually getting young men and women out of the inner-city environment so they can blossom.

[INDIA]

110. I'm not blaming the victim.

The "victim" here being the young black child being raised in a manner that makes him/her far more likely to fail in life than children in other communites. I'm blaming the absent fathers, the lazy teachers, the $$$ driven negative media influences, and the tacit approval of the black community to engage in behavior that would cause one to be a social outcast in other cultures/communities.

I knew I would be called a racist. I expected that, you know, cause I'm white and all. Check out some Cosby transcripts/ youtube interviews on the net. I take most of my opinions on the subject from him. Is HE a racist when he says AA culture is lousy? He has a great insight on the subject, and I've read a couple articles about people who (like you) were initially angry at his comments, and eventually came around and agreed with him.

He's intelligent, insightful, and an excellent role model. I wish he would run for office somewhere.

[NorthernSpy]

127. Bill Cosby's many allegations of sexual assault exclude him from "excellent role model" status

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0420051_bill_cosby_1.html

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=446798

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_5212749,00.html


If you wondered why the Coz doesn't run for office -- well, now you know.

I knew I would be called a racist. I expected that, you know, cause I'm white and all. Check out some Cosby transcripts/ youtube interviews on the net. I take most of my opinions on the subject from him. Is HE a racist when he says AA culture is lousy? He has a great insight on the subject, and I've read a couple articles about people who (like you) were initially angry at his comments, and eventually came around and agreed with him.

He's intelligent, insightful, and an excellent role model. I wish he would run for office somewhere.

Is Bill Cosby a racist? Yeah, he is. He's just another conservative who can't control his own behavior, and who has chosen to soothe his inner unruhe and deflect scrutiny from himself by using the black community -- vulnerable as it is -- as a convenient whipping boy.

That makes him a racist in my book. It also makes him -- like all racists -- fair game. Anything I can legally do to make his life worse, I'll do cheerfully and with a serene conscience. Making sure that everyone knows about the decades' worth of sexual assault allegations against him is my way of bringing this badmouthing phoney to justice.


Oh, by the way: you're not being called a racist because you're white. If you're being called a racist, it's because people evaluate you on the basis of what comes out of your mouth, and then decide for themselves whether the label fits. If you don't like being called a racist, then don't make defamatory remarks pegging an entire culture of tens of millions of people as "lousy".

Especially not if you're singling out one minority culture for scrutiny, while praising your own kind for their superior ways (and ignoring the obvious patterns of dysfunction in your own culture). That shit looks more like some kind of twisted ego-boosting exercise for a certain demographic who are anxious about their own declining status in the world and eager for someone to condescend to.

[INDIA]

131. Bill Clinton has had dozens of allegations levied against him too...

He seemed to do pretty well in public office, and yes, I think Bill Clinton is a role model. Was the adultery he committed wrong? Yes, it was a mistake, but I don't believe the rape allegations againt him, and he is an outstanding rags to riches story and an example of how far hard work can take you.

And as far as I know, Cosby has never been convicted of anything. Innocent until proven guilty no? Do you believe every ridiculous lawsuit filed against public figures/entertainers? If so, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you in Brooklyn...

And I find a lot of the time that the word "racist" is used far too often, as a way to shout down an opposing viewpoint. Nobody wants to be called a racist, it's one of the worst things you can call somebody, as evidenced by its ability to effectively end/ruin some people's careers (sometimes for right or for wrong. And I find it amusing that you can call an African American man, who by all accounts, wants the best for his community, a racist. He isn't using the AA community as a "whipping post", he's actively working to improve it by presenting tough, thought provoking ideas, that from an article I read, are starting to catch on in the AA community.

And yes, I said that I was a little harsh pegging the entire culture as lousy. AA culture has contributed amazing art, music, literature, scientific discoveries, etc. But certain parts of it, really are lousy, and in need of improvement.

[Karenina]

133. Ack!

:puke:

[NorthernSpy]

231. this is about Cosby, whose 13 allegations sexual assault span 4 decades...

Sure, I know that a celebrity can get hit with a false accusation or two. But that many accusations over that long a stretch of time (testified to by women who can no longer press charges or sue, and who therefore have little to gain from offering their testimony), probably do indicate something unsavory about the man.

Your willingness to overlook all that and insist that Cosby is an "excellent role model" because you like the way he bashes blacks is really pretty telling.


Oh, and by the way: I've never been a fan of Bill Clinton. So your apologetics on that score fall especially flat with me.

And I find a lot of the time that the word "racist" is used far too often, as a way to shout down an opposing viewpoint. Nobody wants to be called a racist, it's one of the worst things you can call somebody, as evidenced by its ability to effectively end/ruin some people's careers (sometimes for right or for wrong.

(...)

And yes, I said that I was a little harsh pegging the entire culture as lousy. AA culture has contributed amazing art, music, literature, scientific discoveries, etc. But certain parts of it, really are lousy, and in need of improvement.

Aw, stop whining already. Make racist remarks, and you'll get treated like a racist. Simple as that.

Also, please note that it's little late for this backpedalling re the blacks and their supposedly "lousy" culture, and no one buys your half-assed attempt at damage control (oh, I was being "a little harsh") anyway.

[noiretextatique]

151. some of cosby's comments are racist

lumping a group of people together and stereotyping them is racist, even when bill cosby does it.

[Karenina]

160. This is what Ms Singletary had to say...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/12/AR2005111200170.html

Cosby was lauded by white conservatives and some blacks for being brave enough to speak out. But like the price of sneakers that Cosby got wrong, he was incorrect about much of what he said. And Dyson proves as much in his well-researched book.

Dyson begins most chapters with Cosby's own words and then methodically dissects the comments, showing just why the comedian was rattling off nonsense much like his Fat Albert character Mushmouth. "Cosby's remarks are not the isolated ranting of a solo rhetorical gunslinger, but simply the most recent, and the most visible, shot taken at poor blacks in a more-than-century-old class war in black America," Dyson writes in the book's preface.

Dyson, a professor of religious studies at the University of Pennsylvania, deftly demolishes the stereotypes Cosby let loose.

[Karenina]

162. Then Tim Wise hit it out of the ballpark.

http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/PersonalResponsibility.html

Even worse, many whites actually blame others for our own racial biases. So, for example, whites will often acknowledge negative perceptions of blacks as lazy, violent, dishonest, or whatever, and then blame black folks for feeding that perception by their own actions.

Talk about not taking personal responsibility! So because of the actions of a small, unrepresentative sample of the African American community (the three percent or so who commit a violent crime annually, for example), whites feel justified in thinking negative things about blacks as a group.

And then, in what can only be viewed as the epitome of silliness, these same whites want everyone to believe that racism is no longer an obstacle for blacks, even though they have admitted to holding negative views about the entire community in question!

So we are to believe that persons holding these biases would nonetheless be able to fairly evaluate black job applicants, or potential tenants, or loan applicants; that somehow these stereotypes to which they confess would play no role in their evaluations of such persons in the real world!

Just listen to the logic here: "Racism isn't holding blacks back, it's their own laziness!" If one cannot see the irony in this comment go back and read it again; read it three or four times until you get it. If anything, statements like this are their own negation; they serve to disprove their own claim, even before someone has the chance to respond to them.

As for Cosby -- white America's favorite black man (for now) -- perhaps we should ask how most whites felt about his comment several years ago that AIDS may well have been created by the U.S. Government as a plot to destroy certain communities; or the statement of his wife Camille when their son was murdered, in which she noted that America had taught her son's Russian killer to hate blacks. As I recall, most whites either said nothing in response to these claims, or went ballistic, accusing the Cosbys of "playing the race card."

See, white folks don't like the race card, unless it's the one that helps our own hand. Whites, by and large, never listen to black people, unless they're saying what we already want to hear. That's how desperate we are to avoid taking personal responsibility for the mess that racism has made of this nation; a mess in which we are more than a little implicated, historically speaking and still today.

[noiretextatique]

175. hence my reluctance

about (continued) support for obama, if as jody thinks, he will try to actually help black americans. he will be accused of "playing the race card" too. i think you are right...obama doesn't understand the dynamics at play. he "gives us hope" can change very quickly, as wise so aptly points out.

[noiretextatique]

163. pretty much my reaction

cosby's attack is a part of a long historical class conflict among black people. cosby pisses me off...he should know better. but this confirmed everything i heard about him for years.

[Karenina]

164. I was THERE and too much a "nappy-haided jungle bunny"

for ANY of his casting calls. No big loss as I'd heard enough first-person accounts...

[noiretextatique]

165. likewise

not to mention his penchant for young girls...but i will mention it anyway :D

[SemiCharmedQuark]

223. Noiretblu! Good to see you!

:hi:

[noiretextatique]

226. hey there

:hi: likewise, good to see you keeping up the good fight :hi:

[INDIA]

111. Then answer me this...

Do you think Asian-Americans, many who arrived in the US as refugees with nothing, were locked up in camps during the 40's, and were arguably more foreign to this land than African Americans, are somehow genetically pre-disposed toward hard work and doing well in math/science? Neither do I. THAT would be racist to think such things. Yet Asian-Americans are scoring higher on SAT's, going to better colleges, making higher salaries, and actually having children within stable two parent environments. It's the culture, stupid. It's why China and India are going to take the place of America as the world's superpower one day.

Do I believe that Asian culture is more work/education oriented, and more conservative in it's stance toward marriage/sexual relations? Yeah, I do, and it seems to be working. Have you ever read "The Joy Luck Club"? As tough as it sounds to grow up in such a conservative (almost draconian), work/education centered household, the children, and therefore the overall community as a whole, become successful adults.

So you can blame the system and the "white man" all day long. Certainly some of the blame must go toward the majority population, as well as a poor economic situation. But to ignore the problems in African American culture today? That's just being unrealistic. If you blame everybody BUT yourself for your problems, you won't be able improve yourself.

[Evoman]

112. Fine, we'll play it your way.

Let' say that the greatest effect on success is their "culture" and that the reason blacks are held bac....I mean...are holding themselves back, is because their culture is shit. Why DO YOU think their culture is shit? What do you think, historically and socially, made the Asian culture different than the black culture. And how do you go about changing a culture that your born into?

Oh, and feel free to include the Native American "culture" in your thesis.

And I'll also add: should the black's adopt the white culture? Should they adopt a culture that is superior only in it's greed, consumerism, need to exploit others and need to make money at the cost of their family? White people who will leave their families to take jobs across the country because it pays a couple of hundred dollars more! White people give their kids keys to the house and see them for an hour before they get to bed?

Sounds great.

[INDIA]

115. I think a lot of the problems stem from attitudes such as yours...

If you're pointing fingers at everybody else BUT yourself for your problems, then your own self-correctable problems will get worse. And worse. Until they reach the epidemic levels that we see in African American culture today. And yes, crime and single parent households are at epidemic levels in the African American community. White/Rich/Republican America is not somehow forcing teenagers to have unprotected sex and drop out of high school and/or commit crimes. How does one change this? It's human nature to believe that the group that you identify with, (race, country, religion) is somehow superior to others, and if it's in a bad place, it must be somebody else's fault. Getting past this instinct, admitting fault within your chosen ID group, and counteracting the negative influences that hold it down would be a start.


As a family and as a community, instead of accepting unnaceptable behavior, one must denigrate and point out the wrongdoing of those who are behaving in an unnaceptable manner. Instead of glorifying gangsters and criminals in Rap music, criminals should be ostracized and denigrated by the community. Young men failing to take care of multiple children from multiple mothers shouldn't be accepted, they should be held out as an example of what is wrong and disgusting. Dropping out of high school should be considered a huge embarassment, not a socially acceptable norm. The responsibility starts with the family, and branches out to the community as a whole. Don't accept what is unnaceptable.

And culture is a complicated thing. What makes a culture what it is can't be summed up on an internet message board. And I never said that AA culture is "shit." I did say it was "lousy", and looking back, that was probably a little too harsh, I should have said that certain aspects of the culture are lousy.

And I take offense that you label only "white" culture as a culture that puts value on education, stable family life and hard work. I think THAT'S racist to say such a thing. American/World/Human culture puts a value on such things, not just whites. That's a lousy attitude.

[Evoman]

123. Haha.

My friend, let me tell you about myself. I grew up in a ghetto...in fact, I grew up in what a Canadian magazine called the worst neighbourhood in Canada. I grew up in a single parent household. We were a number of Latino families in the middle of a Native American neighbourhood. My mom made under 10, 000 a year. You think I have problems? Fuck that, I graduated at the top of my high school, went to university, and finished at the top of my class there too. I KNOW poverty, I KNOW helplessness, and I KNOW powerlessness. I'm not some asshole who has never lived in anything but I nice neighbourhood waxing philosophical about the problems with others' cultures.

I climbed out of the gutter, where others didn't. I was lucky. Nobody ever gave me anything, including the people who "wanted my culture to get better". Its fucking bullshit...you can't know what it's like until you've had people trying to knock you off the ladder. That's what minorities face.

Taking control of ones life is essential. I did it. I'm not making excuses. But when you live in shitty neighbourhoods, with shitty schools and the only people who work hard barely making enough to scrape by, you realize that it's all a fucking farce. You want to know why they glorify rappers, gangsters and hustlers? Because they are the only ones who have any sort of success. You see your uncle working as a janitor making shit all, you see your educated cousin not being hired by white business because of his name, so you think...fuck it....I'll hustle like my brother.

"And I take offense that you label only "white" culture as a culture that puts value on education, stable family life and hard work. I think THAT'S racist to say such a thing. American/World/Human culture puts a value on such things, not just whites. That's a lousy attitude"

Strawman bullshit. I never said that. What I did was say that white culture is a culture of corruption, greed, and putting money in front of your family. It's a culture of exploitation and injustice. It's a culture of "get mine first" and acting like your shit don't stink.

But I didn't even really mean that....and I'm suprised that nobody took the bait. I was hoping to be called a racist, so that I could show that it's never alright when we say things like that about white people, but it is when we denigrate "black" culture.

Self-enlightment can get INDIVIDUALS out of a bad situation. I did it. But most people, including a lot of the rich fucks on wallstreet, aren't self enlightened. And you can't make them be by denigrating them, generalizing their culture, and then pissing on them when push comes to shove. Keep cutting welfare, keep cutting funding to their schools, and then tell them you care about them.

[NorthernSpy]

125. why are there so many white pedophiles?

Is there something in white culture that makes white men disproportionately likely to view toddlers as sex objects? And if there is, wouldn't that give white culture an equal claim to "lousiness"? I'm asking you, because you seem to be some kind of expert on what makes a culture "lousy".


Maybe you could spend less time feeling superior to blacks, and more time worrying about your own kind.

[INDIA]

139. Do you have statistics to back that up?

I have a feeling you may be right, but I'm basing my opinion on real statistics, which are included in the OP. I'd like to see statistics that show white men are more likely to abuse children than men of other racial backgrounds.

And in ANY community, black, white, asian whatever...pedophiles are reviled and banished to the peripheries of society. They have their pictures and addresses listed on websites, have signs posted in their front lawns, and neighbors are warned of their existence. They are universally hated by all, and their careers/lives are effectively ended even after serving their (ever lengthening) prison terms. THAT is an example of a community/culture standing up and saying "this behavior is reprehensible and we will not allow it." Why is it that other communities don't treat gang members or drug dealers in a similar manner? I'm not advocating we treat voluntary High School drop outs in such a severe manner, but a universal community condemnation of those who don't graduate High School, or take care of their children, could go a long way to improving the situation.

I assure you that in white culture, or in any other culture for that matter, there are no movies or popular music genres dedicated to glorifying the exploits of pedophiles. And I'm VERY sure that young people aren't imitating the dress and style of pedophiles, which judging from "To Catch a Predator", is jean shorts and sandals with white socks.

[noiretextatique]

192. please provide your statistics

thanks.

[INDIA]

217. I think you're talking to me...

here you go, I didn't even need to look for it. It was in the OP

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

I'm asking for equivalent statistics that prove white men are more likely (per 100,000) to sexually abuse minors. I haven't seen them yet.

[noiretextatique]

225. i was referring to all the statictics

for your claims, please provide those.

[NorthernSpy]

232. 'cause now that we're talking about whites, fairness suddenly matters...

... and we must be careful about the conclusions we draw. Wouldn't want to stigmatize an entire population.


:eyes:


http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/ResourceServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=2018

91% of those arrested for child porn during the period examined by this study were white. Only 8% belonged to the catch-all "other" racial group -- ie, all other races combined.

... the national data are consistent in indicating lower levels of sexual abuse for Black than for White children.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HUM9IIrZHywC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=children+%22sexual+abuse%22+white+black+-aboriginal&source=web&ots=nnAT-uWnCA&sig=M1T4esuVweTD0n_oWYaWHvmaMBY

Representative studies consistently find that prepubescent black children are significantly less likely than white children to experience sexual abuse. I think it's fair to say that this lower incidence of CSA victimization among black children probably does indicate a generally lower prevalence of pedophilia in the black community.



Have you ever checked out the US Marshalls' 15 Most Wanted page? In just about every edition of the page, a high percentage of the wanted white fugitives are on the list for sex crimes against children. That's rarely the case for the black fugitives on the list.

For instance, of the ten nonHispanic whites currently featured on the Marshalls' list, four are wanted for sex crimes against children. The three blacks are wanted for murder and drug trafficking, and the two Hispanics are wanted for firearms violations. All of that is pretty typical for the wanted list.

http://www.usmarshals.gov/investigations/most_wanted/index.html


Finally, given the dramatically higher exposure to law enforcement among blacks, you have to ask why all these searches and friskings and investigations of black subjects rarely ever seem to turn up any kiddie porn. Whereas white guys are in the news getting busted for the contents of their harddrives all the time.

I assure you that in white culture, or in any other culture for that matter, there are no movies or popular music genres dedicated to glorifying the exploits of pedophiles. And I'm VERY sure that young people aren't imitating the dress and style of pedophiles, which judging from "To Catch a Predator", is jean shorts and sandals with white socks.

Actually, pedophilia is a very popular topic for movies, television shows, and books aimed at white audiences. Even though these shows invariably take the position that pedohiles are bad, the hyperfocus on child molestation in entertainment reflects a widespread prurient interest in the subject among white viewers. The ostensibly anti-pedo editorial line of these books and shows allows people to indulge that interest "respectably". Probably kinda unhealthy, to say the least.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

240. Most kids are molested by a man they know

Sometimes the father, but more often a stepfather, uncle, family friend, etc.

Children raised in a matriarchal culture are surely less inclined to be molested, but I don't have any statistics for that.

[noiretextatique]

157. do you know anything about asian gangs?

and the crimes they commit? exploitation of asian immigrats? poverty in asian communities? "blame the white man" is a bullshit, dismissive phrase. racism is a reality, a current and historical reality. discussing that reality is something that many white americans are not capable of doing without becoming defensive and dismissive (blaming the white man, etc). jody has a point, in a strange way. i often wonder why seemingly intelligent people can't talk intelligently about race.

[noiretextatique]

155. i have to agree with you

and given all that you mention about the causes, the solution seems to be "obama can deal with it." well, obama didn't cause it...all the centuries of exclusion, discrimination, and racism did. cosby is right in that we cannot expect america to ever own up to its racist past and present, and the current problems it caused. i don't think obama can magically make that happen either, as some have suggested.
some grassroots efforts have been effective, but they need funding, which has been scarce under the reign of the bushistas.

[jody]

174. I don't believe "obama can deal with it" but I do believe Obama can make it a major issue to be

discussed by presidential candidates from both parties.

I would like to see debate moderators ask every presidential candidate the following question, "There were 8,000 homicides in 2005 in the black community mostly in inner cities where murders occur at seven times the rate in white communities. How do you propose to fight the War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities that is killing more U.S. citizens than the War in Iraq".

A corollary question might be, "How much money is in the federal budget for the War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities and how does that compare with the money we are spending to fight the War in Iraq".

[noiretextatique]

177. i hear you...but i am not so sure obama

can or will do that. i hope you are right though.

[jody]

178. If not Obama, then who else at this particular time and place in history? I did not mean to offer

Obama as a panacea for the War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities but rather to provoke DUers to suggest other prominent black leaders who could step up to the task.

I've said this in several posts in this thread, the law enforcement methods, etc. we are using today and used for decades to fight violent crime in inner cities is not working. It's way past time to get new leaders and new methods.

[noiretextatique]

179. there are plenty of people actively working on tihis issue

including some well-known names.
i don't have much faith in americans when it comes to race-related issues, but perhaps obama can help change the dynamic. i am doubtful but as i mentioned, i really hope you are right.

[jody]

181. I know a couple but we need a federal effort to fight the War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities and

it should be as well funded as the war to secure Iraq's oil fields for international corporations and a premature Mars mission.

It would also be nice if the War on Violent Crime was led by a president committed to winning the war in one generation.

[noiretextatique]

183. jody. i agree with you 1000%

i am still doubtful about the feasibility of this effort politically, but you are absolutely right about the need: it should be a priority for the nation.

[Karenina]

185. Obama WON'T TOUCH IT with a bargepole.

Take THAT to the bank.

[jody]

189. Sadly I must agree with you. Another missed opportunity and more years where the murder rate is

seven times higher for blacks than whites. In the meantime we fight foreign wars wasting hundreds of billions of dollars while continuing to ignore the War on Violent Crime in Inner Cities.

What do you mean to imply with the highlighted phrase in your statement, "Obama WON'T TOUCH IT with a bargepole", delight or sorrow? :shrug:

[Karenina]

191. No either/or J-man

Just reality as I see it. He HAS to appeal to whomever he believes will bring him the most votes. The "crossover" thing is a field strewn with landmines.

[H2O Man]

167. I agree & disagree.

First, there is no one "African American community." Hence, it is impossible to accurately say that something is acceptable to the black community, or any other community. The concepts of "community" have to be recognized as generalities in certain parts of a larger group, which overlaps with other large groups. For example, are multi-millionaires in the same community with poor folks? Does it depend upon the number of generations that have been in one economic class or another?

However, for a significant segment of black communities, the social pathologies you mention -- children born out of wedlock, failure to complete high school, and incarceration -- are higher than in any other general community other than (some) Native Americans. That is not something that only Bill Cosby has noted: Malcolm X spoke at length about it, and other progressive black leaders today speak about it as well.

When we look at other sub-groups as communities, we find that these same issues are becoming increasingly common in other groups that participate in a multi-generational culture of poverty. It's worth noting that other immigrant communities did have similar behaviors in the past: you can find some ugly descriptions of the Irish who came here as a result of the Great Starvation in the mid-1800s. Having options for rising above the lowest levels of poverty as a group (rather than as individuals who could "entertain") allowed the extended families/communities to improve their lot in one or two generations.

That same option was not widely available to black families in America. That is one reason I noted the Moynihan Report earlier on this thread: though I am familiar enough with the late senator to say that it is true that he was not without prejudice, his report remains important. The economic system fractured a huge segment of the black families .... and in human history, that which happens to the least will eventually happen to the most. As we have moved from industrial society to high-tech society, the increase in single-parent families led to a significant rise what social workers politely call "family dysfunction." Children from single parent families tend to have more problems at home, in school, and in the community than those from two-parent families.

One of the biggest increases, which our society is uncomfortable admitting, is that female-headed single-parent families have high rates of indicated cases of child neglect and abuse. That isn't based upon race. Nor can domestic violence accurately be described as being an issue for men, and rarely women. Not unless we want to lie to ourselves .... and we really do not have the luxury of deceiving ourselves. But we are dealing with issues that are no longer generations away.

[Karenina]

180. Dearest Waterman, forgive me for seeking you as cover

to state what I see is obvious.

The OP has cherry-picked statistics to make the case that INNER CITY BLACKS ARE VIOLENT. And indeed, this is in part true. He calls upon DUers, who for the most part could give a flying fuck about the ravages the black inner city community has suffered, to comment. I call FOUL at that point.

I am seeing the results of TRAUMATIZED people, Native Americans, African Americans, Mexican Americans ALL OF WHOM have NEVER been granted entry to the dominant society EXCEPT as "EXCEPTIONS" who do the will of the Übermenschen.

Then I read "What shall WE do about THEM." It's the same doo-da I read about the Iraqis, NOLA and NOW the Iranians. The Haitians hardly deserve a mention. THAT ONE was WAY too easy and has been long since forgotten. The answer has always been, DESTROY THEM. And then BLAME them for their condition. :cry:

[jody]

182. Why call "FOUL at that point"? Do you also call FOUL re DU threads that discuss the war in Iraq and

Afghanistan?

If not, then are you not guilty of placing a higher value on innocent citizens in Iraq/Afghanistan than you do in U.S. inner cities?

Suggest you reexamine your statement "He calls upon DUers, who for the most part could give a flying fuck about the ravages the black inner city community has suffered, to comment. I call FOUL at that point."

[Karenina]

188. Go here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=258x3450
or here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=258&topic_id=4396&mesg_id=4396
If you are truly interested in how POC see ourselves regarded on this board.

[jody]

193. Thanks for links to useful summaries. Still, I believe we should discuss issues like violent crime

in inner cities in DU's General Discussion and not limit debate to a special interest forum like DU's African-American Issues Group.

I doubt that was your intent but I added my observation so you could clarify any misunderstanding that I may have reached.

I'm sorry that you and I may appear to some DUers to be at loggerheads on this topic.

I sincerely believe we share the same goals and aspirations although we may not agree on how best to spend limited federal funds to achieve those goals.

:pals:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

245. So basically you're saying...

That black people are a bunch of stupid, promiscuous criminals.

Yet you don't want people calling you racist.

Heh.

[killbotfactory]

36. The war on drugs, unregulated capitalism

The war on drugs is inherently racist, started by racists, justified by racist demagoguery, and continued for racist and corrupt purposes.

They are paying people five-six bucks an hour, in cities where people who earn 100k/year income consider themselves middle class. How the hell is anyone supposed to survive on six bucks an hour? Meanwhile if you sell drugs or some other form of illegal hustle, you can make a whole lot more. When you are that poor you get nickle and dimed, and pretty much screwed with from all angles. There is only so much people can take, and if we keep punishing people who work an honest job full time with miserable working conditions and horrible pay, of course we are going to have a crime problem. If this type of violence and crime started popping up in middle class white neighborhoods it would be a national emergency.

We need to promote economic reforms in areas of massive poverty. We need to fully fund schools, and we need to offer free higher education. We need to promote employee ownership, co-operatives, and unions, and kick the national chains like Wal-Mart and McDonalds out of town and replace them with locally owned businesses who don't siphon money out of already impoverished communities. We also need to flood these areas with cheap, nutritious, and fresh foods. Nobody can think straight if they are starving or malnourished.

We also need to end the drug war, with our prohibition stances, and replace them with harm reduction strategies. We should treat junkies like people who need medical help, not like criminal scum who should fill up our prisons. We also need to make the police accountable to the community they serve.

[jody]

39. Are you saying if we legalize all drugs then violent crime will be significantly reduced in inner

cities?

[killbotfactory]

41. We need to treat it like a public health problem

Not a criminal problem. That means the hardest drugs, like heroin, should be available under medical supervision so that people aren't forced to go through illegal channels and hustle money to buy their next fix. For example: http://www.drugpolicy.org/library/tlcnr.cfm

Drugs should be regulated on a more realistic scale, like this one: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6474053.stm
Drugs less harmful than alcohol and tobacco should be legal and reasonably regulated.

[jody]

43. If we legalize all drugs then violent crime will be significantly reduced in inner cities? n/t

[superduperfarleft]

53. I'd say yes.

I'm not sure if I want to get in the middle of this conversation, but I would like to point out that DOJ statistics show that (and this is from memory) that most crimes committed under the influence of a substance are committed under the influence of alcohol. The largest amount of illegal drug-related violence is a result of the underground economy that prohibition has allowed to flourish. Once you remove the criminal economy by legalizing the product, you remove the turf wars, rivalries, disputes over money, etc.

A good book to read on this subject is Crack in America. I don't have it front of me right now, but that's where I'm pulling this information from.

[jody]

56. Thanks, I'll pursue your comments and see what I find. Thanks for the book title and any others that

you might remember or run across. :hi:

[killbotfactory]

105. Most likely, but it would need to be done in tandem with other reforms

Getting rid of prohibition, and the draconian laws associated with it, would definitely help.

[foo_bar]

45. short answer: most likely

The evidence on Prohibition and crime focuses on the homicide rate, since this is the only type of crime for which data are reported consistently both before, during, and after Prohibition.10 Figure 3 presents the homicide rate in the United States (measured as homicides per 100,000 population) for the period 1900-1995. Starting from around 1906, the homicide rate rises steadily through 1933-1934, when it begins a general decline until approximately 1960, interrupted by a spike during World War II. Beginning in the early 1960's the homicide rate rises steadily until the early 1970's—to a level slightly above the previous peak in 1933-1934—and then fluctuates around a relatively high value for the remainder of the sample.

Roughly speaking, therefore, there have been two periods with high homicide rates in U.S. history, the 1920-1934 period and the 1970-1990 period (Friedman 1991). Both before the first episode and between these two episodes, homicide rates were relatively low or clearly declining. Prima facie, this pattern is consistent with the hypothesis that alcohol prohibition increased violent crime: homicide rates are high in the 1920-1933 period, when constitutional prohibition of alcohol was in effect; the homicide rate drops quickly after 1933, when Prohibition was repealed; and the homicide rate remains low for a substantial period thereafter.


http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/miron.prohibition.alcohol

The “war on drugs” has not reduced drug use, crime, or poverty as its proponents claim, says Boston University economist Jeffrey Miron. In fact, the criminalization of drugs has actually increased the homicide rate in this country, says Miron his new book, DRUG WAR CRIMES: The Consequences of Prohibition (Independent Institute, May 2004). He offers a powerful economic analysis of the failure of U.S. drug policies to deter drug abuse and reduce crime, and examines the real costs of this country's war on drugs.

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/news_detail.asp?newsID=35

[jody]

47. Are drug use rates correlated with violent crime rates? I know that would not necessarily confirm a

cause and effect relationship but such a relationship cannot exist without a significant correlation statistic.

[foo_bar]

52. I'm not sure I understand; correlation doesn't imply causality but it should?

If you lumped all (presumably illegal) drugs together and tried to ascertain their collective rate of consumption (via self-reporting, barring the possibility of a drug-taking Nielsen family), it couldn't be used as prima facie evidence of anything without comparison to a control group without prohibition (unless you consider the pre-1970s stats, but that's still a different country). It also couldn't say anything about the harmfulness of (the) drugs themselves without examining them individually, rather than looking for a correlation between what today is contraband and what universally is violence. But I imagine this universal "drug use rate" would be positively correlated with violent crime in societies which inadvertently reward contraband dealers with incredible wealth while sending their otherwise nonviolent customers to prison for years of education in violence.

[jody]

54. Correlation can be a casual relationship rather than a causal relationship. n/t

[foo_bar]

60. no argument from me there

[Zynx]

74. While Prohibition may have been a factor, there is a huge increase in homicides

between 1905 and 1920 which is much bigger than the subsequent increase in both proportion and absolute numbers. This has to be explained as well and I think quite frankly it is predominantly demographic. There were a lot of young immigrants and immigrant kids who had a hard time getting jobs and thus turned to crime. Same sort of thing in the 1960s and 1970s. A huge demographic distortion was caused by the Baby Boom generation coming of age and it was difficult for the economy and society to full absorb and thus crime rose. Crime fell dramatically in the 1990s as they aged.

[foo_bar]

75. agreed, but why the precipitous decline the year following the 21st amendment?

The data in Figure 4 combined with the data in Figure 3 show that expenditure climbs along with the homicide rate during Alcohol Prohibition and then falls at the end of this prohibition, as does the homicide rate. The relation is not perfect; other factors undoubtedly play a role. For example, the homicide rate begins rising about a decade before constitutional Prohibition takes effect, a fact that potentially reflects demographics (the enormous levels of immigration during the early part of this century), the violence-inducing effects of World War I, or perhaps merely changes in the sample of states used to compute homicide rates (Miron 1999). Regression analysis in Miron (1999) considers this more formally and confirms that enforcement of alcohol prohibition played a central role in causing the increasing and decreasing homicide rates during this period.

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/miron.prohibition.alcohol (ibid)

[Zynx]

76. There was a strict immigration law implemented in 1924 that would

have cut down on the demographic disruptions. I think the decline in organized crime as a result of the repeal of prohibition certainly had A role, but I think it is ridiculous to conclude it was solely responsible. You also had people starting to move out into the suburbs reducing population density.

[foo_bar]

79. so this piece of (eugenicist approved) legislation started having an effect 10 years later?

Why not give Herbert Hoover credit, if you're picking arbitrary conservative "achievements" that happened non-contemporaneously with the repeal of Prohibition? If Miron's regression analysis was erroneous or made incorrect assumptions, that would be a logical launching point for criticism of Prohibition's "central" (not "sole") place in the homicide rates in the accompanying years. "Solely responsible" isn't a phrase you hear often in the social sciences.

[Zynx]

83. It would stand to reason that a demographic trend takes a while to take

effect just like the Baby Boom. It would be very unreasonable indeed to expect that a slow in immigration in a law passed in 1924 and not put in effect until 1925 would have any effect the next few years. There was a cumulative effect of all those years and the fact that the younger immigrants would be coming of age in the next couple decades after the flow stopped. It would take a while. Demographic trends do not turn on a dime.

Let me be clear here, I am not endorsing that bill at all as it resulted in the deaths of millions of European Jews who were unable to flee to the United States as a result of its restrictions that were still in place as of WWII. It was an awful bill in many many respects. However, it does stand to reason that due to problems with assimilation and economic dislocation massive new numbers of immigrants would have an effect on crime rates. I am in no way saying southern and eastern European immigrants were more disposed towards crime as my ancestors were from Eastern Europe at exactly that time. I am saying that demographic disruptions on a massive scale have economic and social effects considering the drastically changing economic scene of the time.

I have looked up states with stable demographic trends compared to those with volatile ones. Pennsylvania during the 1945-2000 period has a far more stable crime rate than does Nevada, Kansas has a far more stable crime rate than does California, Ohio more stable than Florida, and so on. The more stable the demographic trends the more stable the crime rates. This is almost uniformly true.

Do you have another explanation for that surge of crime between 1905 and 1920?

[foo_bar]

104. I agree that the 18th amendment can be ruled out as a factor from 1905-1920 :)

But not the small-p prohibition of alcohol:

In February 1913, Congress adopted the Webb-Kenyon Law, which prohibited shipments of liquor from wet states into dry states if such shipments were in violation of the dry state law. This did not prohibit all shipments into dry states, since some dry states allowed importation (Merz 1930, p. 14). In February 1917, Congress passed the Reed bone-dry amendment, which forbade interstate shipment of liquor into states that prohibited manufacture and sale, even if the state allowed importation. (Merz 1930, p. 20). In August 1917, Congress adopted the Food Control Law, which forbade the manufacture of distilled spirits from any form of foodstuff and closed the distilleries (Merz 1930, pp. 26-27, 40-41). In September 1918, it closed the breweries as well (Merz 1930, p. 41). Also in September 1918, Congress approved wartime prohibition, although this did not take effect until July 1, 1919 (Merz 1930, p. 41). Wartime prohibition contained the first general restriction on sale, providing that after June 30, 1919, no liquor could be sold for beverage purposes except for export (Schmeckebier 1929, pp. 4-5).

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/miron.prohibition.alcohol

One problem with this (tangential) "demographic trend" hypothesis is compensating for confounding factors such as population density (as a homogenous population with a high birth rate suffers similarly ill effects without the "clash of cultures" whenever housing and resources become scarce, at least in thinking since Malthus) to ensure you aren't measuring something perhaps related to migration. For instance:

The linkage between demography and wealth is of course not unidirectional. The impact of increasing incomes has been shown to affect demography through its impact on health and education. Rising incomes will improve life expectancy and reduce infant mortality rates. This will in turn reduce fertility rates as couples can better plan for the desired number of surviving children. Similarly, education, especially for women, raises the opportunity cost of the time spent on child rearing, and by making children more expensive brings down fertility. The interlinkages between income, physical and human capital, and demography mean that improvements in each will interact with the other two and can set up a dynamic system feedback effects, creating a virtuous cycle of economic growth (Bloom Canning and Malaney, 1999).

<big snip>

The notion of a system of interlinkages which can lead to upward or downward spirals indicates that is possible to enter the system at various points. The discussion of the traditional linkages between human capital and demography emphasizes the importance of the provision of social services such as health and education (especially for girls) to the poor to as an impetus to change demographic behaviour. Improving labor markets for women, for example through access to credit, can have a similar effect, as much of the evidence from microcredit programs such as the Grameen Bank would indicate. Development of financial markets that the poor have access to can also change the incentives to have children as a form of old age security. Of course, the other obvious point at which to enter the cycle is through directly affecting demographic choices. The above analysis has consistently assumed that all fertility is desired fertility. This is well known to be false. Unwanted fertility is a significant factor in the demographic equation for practically all developing countries. Access to contraception is particularly weak for the poor, and in rural areas. Family planning programs can have an considerable effect in bringing down fertility rates, and providing reproductive health services to the poor can enable them to share in the positive effects of the demographic transition.

http://www.rrojasdatabank.org/wpover/malaney.pdf

"Demographic" is used here in the sense of birth/mortality rates (the actuarial division of sociology), not code for undesirables.

The more stable the demographic trends the more stable the crime rates. This is almost uniformly true.

That's a fairly bold assertion without explaining what you mean by "demographic trends" (since any change in a society's characteristics can be deemed "demographic") or providing concrete examples of this evidence you allude to assembling. Maybe I'm biased towards economic explanations over "demographic" (in the sense of ethnic or cultural boundaries?) ones, but most other values of x seem to be true for "The more stable the x the more stable the crime rates", such as "national economy", "fertility rate", even "incarceration rate", so I suspect there's more than one confounding variable (and feedback loop) belying your reduction. Moreover:

Immigration depresses crime rate, claim sociologists

Although there are clearly America specific factors which would need to be taken into account in deciding how valid such a conclusion would be for Australia, it’s interesting to note that sociologists in America have found that immigrants have a lower rate of crime in urban settings. It’s particularly interesting to note that there are unexplained residual factors remaining when variables such as higher rates of employment and two-parent families (which are correlated with lower crime rates) are given their appropriate explanatory weight. The suggestion is that a cultural difference is at work - that America has a high crime culture and over time, people adjust their attitudes and behaviours to those of their environment.

http://larvatusprodeo.net/2006/01/02/immigration-depresses-crime-rate-claim-sociologists/

Skepticism about a link between increased crime and immigration isn't entirely new. Working in the 1920s and '30s, at the end of the country's last great wave of immigration, criminology pioneers Edwin Sutherland and Thorsten Sellin found that immigrants had lower crime rates than both native-born Americans and second-generation immigrants. It was American culture, Sutherland and Sellin concluded, that caused crime, and the less exposure to it one had the less likely one was to be a criminal.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/01/01/good_waves/

[Zynx]

109. I don't have the link available, but I remember distinctly the following:

There is virtually no population growth in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kansas, and Nebraska between 1950 and 2000. Similarly, they do not endure the same national surge in crime that other states do. States with surging populations such as Nevada, Arizona, California, Georgia, and Texas saw an explosion of homicides. Drastic changes in population density lead to changes in the crime rates. I am not saying there were ethnic reasons for it, but rather the changes in population density and the conflicts that drastic changes in population lead to were behind it to some extent.

For example, if I dumped 2,000,000 people in southeastern Wisconsin where I live over the next decade, basically doubling the population, you better believe there will be issues to contend with. It doesn't matter who they are. Now imagine that they are predominantly slanted toward the younger demographics of society. The schools wouldn't be able to absorb them. The economy similarly wouldn't be able to expand enough or quickly enough to provide proper employment. These strains would lead to higher crime.

Because of discrimination, a lot of immigrants in a lot of different areas were shut out of decent jobs and quality education. Predominantly Catholic immigrants from Southern and Eastern Europe on the East Coast would never be offered high-paying jobs by the Protestant elites and Eastern European Jewish immigrants were similarly shut off. Life in the new immigrant communities was very tough indeed and it doesn't take much imagination to see how this would lead to some level of criminality. Families living 4(4 families, not people) to an apartment, working for 50 cents a day in a garments factory, etc. The adolescents and young men often turned towards crime. This is a simple fact. Economic dislocations were a fact of immigrant life.

Also, you cannot look at economics without looking at demographics. They have an effect. A surging population leads to higher inflation due to higher demand for products across the economy. It doesn't seem to have the effect on wages that one would expect due to higher supply as wages do not seem to drop, but inflation does increase. Look at Latin America. Granted there are a lot of other factors going on there, but during the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s Brazil had population growth at a minimum of 2% a year and sometimes pushing 4%. There was strong demand pull inflation during the same period as well. Granted, it did contribute to an expansion of the overall economy since population growth fuels aggregate economic growth without question.

Now, look at Brazil's crime rate. Rapid population growth, extremely high crime. Granted this isn't the only reason and economic dislocation is more important, but it is impossible to look at huge shifts in population and say they has no impact.

[Evoman]

55. Rich, white people siphon out the money from the inner city

and then sit around and wonder why people with no hope, no money, and no future take to crime. When the odds are stacked against you, and the apparatus of society is corrupt, the only way to "get some" is crime.

The problem is not the inner cities. The problem is not minority races. It never has been.

[jody]

57. But DoJ reports show violent crime is intra-racial, i.e. within a minority race. What should the Dem

Party do in general and what should Dem presidential candidates do specifically to help reduce violent crime in inner cities given that such crime is primarily intra-racial?

[Evoman]

61. The dem party will never do what it has to.

It's way bigger than the dem party. What needs to be done is to stop the subsizing of white, corporate business. Close all tax loopholes. Siphon all that money into black businesses, black communities, and black drug abuse centers, and subsidize black owned businesses. Once things get going, then the onus becomes on the black communities to start opening their own universities, and start financing their own political party. Until black people (and other minorities) are as represented in the business and political apparatus and the power structure in the same percentages as they are in society, they will never really be equal.

But thats not what the dem party does. The dem party prefers to cut welfare and increase the tax burden on poor americans, most of which are minorities.

I see little hope short of an outright revolution, to be honest. The only reason that it hasn't happened yet is that the minorities are ignorant of their numbers, and their power if they united.

[jody]

65. I've worked with mayors and civic leaders of black cities hoping to find a paradigm that will help

reach the goals you espouse. I've worked with presidents and deans of HBCU and business leaders and still have not found a combination that worked consistently even though transitory effects have been initially lauded by government and media.

The true measure of success of such programs is what has changed ten, twenty years after the initial effort.

I weep because not much has changed and I keep asking "Where did we go wrong, what didn't we do that would have made a lasting difference?"

I remember Psalms 13:1 "How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever? how long wilt thou hide thy face from me?"

:cry:

[KingFlorez]

91. The key is to eradicate economic isolation

Most of the time with the inner city, you have a decaying area cut off from the rest of the city where the poor have been packed in for years. There are no jobs or economic activity, leading to poverty. In order to eradicate the crime, you have to start eradicating the poverty. It's hard to say what a solution to eradicating the poverty would be though.

[Evoman]

95. What about starting with massive funding for infrastructure improvements?

What about giving money to, and subsidizing, black owned businesses in those neighbourhoods? And doing it without it being over-seen by white people? What about more money for schools in black neighbourhoods. Hell, build them new schools?

That is what we are looking at, in my opinion, if we want to help black communities. But nobody REALLY wants to help black communities...nuh uh, no money for those people. Why that's REVERSE RACISM!!! :eyes:

[KingFlorez]

102. I agree

[Mutineer]

116. That approach has been tried in countless cities in the U.S.

it seldom works successfully. Just throwing money at a problem does not make it go away. You have to get to the root. Too many young lower socio-economic class members in this country don't value education or work as a ticket out of poverty. They see crime as a way to support themselves. Look at what is glorified in films and music-the "thug" life. If you rise up and try to better yourself, you're no longer considered "legit". You have to get at THAT attitude, not just throw money at one SYMPTOM of the attitude. The U.S. Government has spent hundreds of millions if not billions (and it probably is billions) on education initiatives, building initatives, welfare and the like over the last 40 plus years and we are far worse off now then we were then. Money is not always the answer to every problem.

[jody]

120. Agree "throwing money at a problem does not make it go away", it only makes thugs richer. n/t

[Karenina]

141. Whatever happened to "Head Start?"

;-)

[jody]

98. CONJECTURE: Could a resettlement program be tried? n/t

[KingFlorez]

103. If done in the right way, it could work if tried

[midlife_mo_Jo]

118. See my post 117 below yours.

It's working for some.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

117. God, I'm going to get blasted for this

but Katrina victims/evacuees who were fortunate enough to settle into the 'burbs around Houston seem to be doing a lot better than those who were placed in the city, and many don't want to go back. They have a better life here. Their kids are in better schools, they're living in safer communities, many have received help from church and civic organizations and are getting a fresh start. My youngest children's school had about 25 children from New Orleans, and the teachers immediately began assessing them and working with them.

Those folks who are stuck in the inner city seem to have a much stronger desire to go back to New Orleans.

Anyway, basically, they were all "resettled" against their will.

[jody]

119. Thanks for your comment, that experience and your observation is completely new to me.

ON EDIT ADD:
I must look into your observation and see if any government agency is following up with an objective study.

As a minimum, you have suggested a source of empirical data that is very perishable and should be collected now for subsequent studies.

That would make a wonderful thesis or dissertation.

Fair winds and following seas on life's journey! :hi:

[midlife_mo_Jo]

121. No studies - just personal observation,

articles in various newspapers, etc. Area churches and civic organizations "adopted" families - providing them with furniture, clothes, supplemental income and rent, etc.., helping them find jobs, etc. I would guess that a number of them have slipped through the cracks, but from my observation, a number of them are staying and thriving.

I also get treatment at an oncology clinic and visit with a black man who is from Louisiana. He's not actually from New Orleans, but his home was destroyed, nevertheless. He's also not moving back. Talking to him, I know that he appreciates 1) the better schools 2) the multicultural nature of the schools 3) Tex Mex food. :toast:

From our discussions, I know that he knows other families who have decided to permanently settle here.

[noiretextatique]

230. they have a better life than they had before

it's not hard to understand why they don't want to go back. the issue is: why were their lives so hard before? it is simply because they didn't live in the suburbs of houston?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

239. I'm no expert

but here they have:

1) better schools for their kids.

2) more job opportunities.

3) people who are helping them get a fresh start looking for jobs, etc.

4) low crime area.

And it certainly wouldn't have to be in the suburbs of Houston, although I suspect they feel a lot more comfortable here than some place like Idaho. (No offense to the Idahoans. :) ) I know there are people who miss "home." Heck, when we moved here we missed "home," too, and we weren't forcibly removed from our homes and suffering from PTSD, but we stayed for much the same reasons the Katrina victims are staying.

[KingFlorez]

300. I agree with you on this

[NuttyFluffers]

128. *snort* sorry, but 'Liberia' just jumped into mind.

sure, some people made off quite well in that experiment. *snicker* or at least that's what some of their ancestors will tell you, anecdotally. forgive me if i retain scepticism on that story, though.

yeah, sure, anything's possible, right? :D though maybe we should look at history and see if we already have the results on record...

[NorthernSpy]

129. yeah, get the boxcars ready...

:wow:


Jesus effing Christ...


:argh:

[jody]

135. You know that's not what I meant. Perhaps you might offer constructive ideas rather than ad hominem

snipes.

[NorthernSpy]

233. "The larger issue is eliminating the black race from this continent."

Those are the words of Bill White, a neo-nazi who lives in Roanoke, Virginia. I found the quote in a story about him and his website that ran in the mainstream media on 24 September, 2007.

Bill White, Website Manager - "The larger issue is eliminating the black race from this continent. We can deal with these kids, we can put them in prison... when they get out of prison, they're just going to commit a crime again."

http://www.wset.com/news/stories/0907/458133.html


No real outcry against him as a result.



So yeah, thanks for fanning the flames.

[jody]

238. I agree Bill White is a threat to society. The SPL center tracks most Active Hate Groups.

Active U.S. Hate Groups in 2006
Black Separatist
Christian Identity
General Hate
Ku Klux Klan
Neo-Confederate
Neo-Nazi
Racist Skinhead
White Nationalist

[fishwax]

247. Well, what exactly DID you mean? (I know you hate to clarify things, but ...) n/t

[Snarkturian Clone]

132. Lots of ignorance in this thread

I try to stay out of these discussions but this time I had to share.

Lots of DUers act like race relations experts but live in comfortable suburbs. DUers who use the word "white" as a pejorative (which is racist) but claim to be SOOOO non-racist.

I work at an inner city school that was formed by a local community non-profit group which is completely black-run. The community group is desperately trying to improve the local neighborhood and hitting roadblocks at every turn by the simple fact that the people that they are trying to help squander and waste their assistance.

I know I'm going to be flamed and called a racist by a bunch of suburbs-white-neighborhood-living racism "experts" here on DU for saying this but Bill Cosby knows exactly what he's talking about. Anyone who actually works daily in the inner city black community as I do will tell you the same. Maybe my experience is anecdotal but I'm still going to share that in MY black community, the one I work with, education is NOT important. Following the law, or any other rule for that matter, is considered WRONG. Having a child at the age of 15 or 16 is considered NORMAL because it's been going on in this community for GENERATIONS. Authority figures of any kind and of any race are considered THE ENEMY.

Parents treat their children worse than pets. We get kindergartners who can barely speak because they are not even spoken to at home. Then when their about 8, they are taught that they need to physically fight any person that makes them angry for any reason. By the time they are 13 they are considered "grown" and are allowed to freely conduct their lives with no help from their parents. We call parents to tell them that their child is joining a gang and the parent will say "I know and I'm proud of him. B's up!" These are parents that take their 5 year olds to horror movies. When our community group tries to tell them otherwise, they vociferously remind us that we can't tell them how to raise their child. Kids who sleep all day at school because their parents have been partying all night long. These are kids who get free lunch and breakfast but have $200 sneakers, ipods, psp's, wii's, and more expensive useless stuff.

And guess what... our school gets a comparable per-student funding to the nearby suburban well-to-do schools. It doesn't help. The same amount of funding doesn't help when the students destroy half the resources that were purchased with that money in the first month of school. It doesn't help when we have to buy their uniforms and bookbags and school supplies only to have them destroyed.

All-in-all, what I'm trying to say is, in my experience, the black culture is destroying itself. The glorification of criminality is almost a religion around here. I have 2nd graders with scarface jackets. You can't just blame rich white people. Throwing money at the problem hasn't helped worth a damn. The community group that formed my school is trying their best to help and still getting rebuffed- not by rich white people- but by the community itself. It goes both ways. The victims ARE half to blame here.

Of course, this doesn't apply to ALL the members of the community. I would guess that 20% are very serious about their educations because they want to leave the community. The problem is that these children, when they grow up, will leave the community to never
return.

So feel free to wax poetic about how I'm a racist and a bigot and a republican and so forth, because I'm expecting it from the inexperienced racial "experts" here.. but this is my purely ANECDOTAL experience... and even if it is only representative of a relatively small sample of people, it is still something worth thinking about.

Much love
:hide:

[jody]

136. Thanks for your contribution.

Fair winds and following seas on your journey through life. :hi:

[INDIA]

140. Amazing post.

I feel like we share a similar opinion on the matter, but your take on it is MUCH more valuable and insightful than mine could ever be because of your real life experience.

I don't know if you read my above posts, but if you could take a second... do you think what I'm saying is racist? Everybody else on the board seems to think so...and take delight in tearing me apart and making me feel like an ass. :(

[Karenina]

142. You present yourself that way.

The issue Jody raises goes to the heart of the POISONED CHALICE all who have grown up as part of the "dominant culture" drink from. May I recommend reading some of Tim Wise's writings? He GETS IT. One must unpack the knapsack of privilege before engaging in exnominative rantings, (See: Robin Tolmach Lakoff) otherwise you just become another part of the problem.

[INDIA]

144. I wasn't asking you.

And judging by post #133, you have no interest in carrying on a real discussion without resorting to insulting posts lacking any real substance.

[Karenina]

145. I understand that it's much more comfortable

for you to "discuss" the pressing issue of those violent-blacks-in-the-inner-city with one you perceive to be like yourself, devoid of any appropriate context, looking to him for absolution. I also understand that you do not register the light in which your many posts of "real substance" paint you, nor WHY you might garner such a reaction. It does NOT surprise me that you don't even ASK. Just stuff this post in your knapsack and forget it.

[INDIA]

148. Ack!

:puke: Ack indeed...:eyes:

[fishwax]

152. Yes, Snarkturian Clone's opinion is much more valuable than Karenina's

after all you already know he agrees with you.

But seriously, India3--step back for a moment and think about how some of the things you've posted might sound to others. You started off by dismissing black culture as lousy. I think it's no surprise that some posters would respond by saying that suggestion is racist, and clearly some people were offended by it.

You later said that this assessment was "probably a little too harsh," a statement which acknowledges the inaccuracy of your initial post, but seems entirely unwilling to deal with the offense that this inaccuracy caused. Indeed, while discussing the issue with one particular poster who was offended at the statement, instead of acknowledging that your slightly too harsh (to adopt your sense of understatement ;)) dismissal of Black culture might have impaired the discussion, you say his attitude is the one really at fault here. In fact, your accusation that his attitude was at fault came in the very same post that you "acknowledged" perhaps being too harsh. I think that might be ironic :)

What happens next is not at all unusual. Stung by suggestions that your blanket dismissal of black culture as lousy might be racist, you suggest that the issue of racism--not racism itself, but the issue of racism--interferes with the dialogue. It's not racism that gets in the way, it's when people actually talk about or point out or suggest the appearance of racism that things break down.

"Nobody wants to be called a racist," you said. "It's one of the worst things you can call somebody." Many posters, I'm sure, would disagree. (Some might even say that having their entire culture called "lousy" might be worse ;) ) But I think when you make such a comment, when you (even unwittingly) paint yourself as the courageous or victimized one, you can probably expect responses along the lines of Karenina's post #133.

These are things worth thinking about, India3, and I'm not saying these things to be a jerk. I'm saying these things because I think your comments in this thread reveal some very real blind spots in your approach to this issue. In her earlier post, Karenina tried to point out that these blind spots are not unusual--they are in fact, very common and very treatable. You just have to, to borrow your earlier suggestion, take some personal responsibility in recognizing them. :)

[noiretextatique]

161. black culture is lousy

your words. i see you did attempted to qualify that comment, but you are the one who wrote those words. as yes, you do seem to be looking for absolution from a like-minded person. who is also making some sweeping generalizations.

[noiretextatique]

158. i won't call you names

but i would suggest you qualify what you mean by "the black community." i am black, and i don't do any of the things you describe or hold any of the values you mention (of the lack thereof, and neither do most of the black people i know. WE ARE ALSO "THE BLACK COMMUMITY." one of the problems i had with cosby's comments was how white people would take them. for example, in a discussion about his comments here, someone ASSUMED that because i didn't agree with his comments (or rather the way he said what he said), that i "blamed the white man" and some other offensive nonsense. i got lectured about valuing education and working hard by someone who probably never went to college, meanwhile i have an advanced degree. that was my main problem with cosby's comments: some may not be discerning enough to know he wasn't talking about people like himself.

[HughMoran]

216. You're a realist.

Clearly all black communities do not have problems to the extent you describe, but I have experienced a similar disregard for property and authority during my inner city days. Unfortunately, the cause seems to be a deep-seated mistrust of "the system" based on what I always thought was a somewhat illogical obcession with being persecuted - a "persecution complex" if you will. I suppose I shouldn't doubt that people truly do feel helpless and that they really believe that things will never get better. I was often told that the method of survival was solely to "beat the system" - it still makes me sigh when I remember how often I heard that phrase. It's depressing to hear that attitudes haven't changed that much based on your recent experiences :( I suppose I'll be tarred too for agreeing with much of what you have stated - oh, well - reality bites. :hide:

[noiretextatique]

227. not e persecution complex

it's a persecution reality, one that is easy to dismiss for those who don't face it on a daily basis.

[NorthernSpy]

234. hell, maybe they just want you to go away...

And something about your post makes me wonder whether they might have their reasons.


I worked in, visited, and routinely walked through poor black communities when I lived out of state. The majority of the people were NOTHING like what you claim.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

248. Bill Cosby's mentally ill.

And spews rhetoric straight out of white supremacist literature.

Just because he's a famous black guy, it doesn't give white people license to agree with him and not be called a racist.

[jody]

251. Interesting, following your logic any famous white guy who spews rhetoric straight out of black

supremacist literature, e.g. one of 88 Black Separatist Hate Groups tracked by the Southern Poverty Law Center, should be called a racist.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

252. Well, yeah.

I'd call any white person who's against interracial marriage or who wants a different country for black people a racist.

Wouldn't you agree?

Btw, what's with this odd tack?

[jody]

253. I can live with that. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

254. So then we're agreed.

White people who agree with Bill Cosby are racist.

[jody]

257. Absolutely, any white person who agrees with anything Bill Cosby says is a racist but a POC is not.

There's a touch of :sarcasm: there.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

258. So wait...

you're saying it's only racist when black supremacists do it?

[jody]

259. My statements are getting contorted but I tried to follow your original statement:

Paraphrasing you said;
Any famous black person who agrees with a white supremacist statement is a racist,
and I said
Any famous white person who agrees with a black supremacist statement is also a racist

I then added "but a POC is not. There's a touch of :sarcasm: there."

I did not say "it's only racist when black supremacists do it?"

I believe you took my sarcastic phrase literally. :shrug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

260. Do you agree that white people who agree with Bill Cosby are racist?

Yes or no.

[jody]

262. I agree that any two people who share the same racist view are both racist regardless of color. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

263. You're dodging the question.

Why?

[jody]

265. Because that's my personal moral code. Why do you believe that Bill Cosby is racist?

I assume you've studied enough philosophy to accept that there is no consensus among philosophers on absolute truth or just simply truth.

If you believe otherwise, then I suggest you publish your arguments for absolute moral truth and once accepted by scholars you will rank among the greatest philosophers of all times.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

267. Why do you think black supremacy is racist but not Cosby?

Because you agree with him?

[jody]

270. I ask again "Why do you believe that Bill Cosby is racist?" n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

271. Wait a minute, I thought this sounded familiar.

You were the same person last week wondering if their were a scientific basis behind eugenics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2316167#2320511

[jody]

272. I ask again "Why do you believe that Bill Cosby is racist?" n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

273. Why do you think he isn't?

Why do you ask if there's validity to eugenics?

[jody]

274. I ask again "Why do you believe that Bill Cosby is racist?" n/t

[Name removed]

285. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jody]

286. So Cosby's comments are racist but he's not a racist. So we should ignore what evil things a person

says and believe the person is good?

Do you want your method applied to the David Dukes of the world?

Isn't that the tactics used by clean up PR teams after every speech in which Bush misspeaks once again?

Please explain how you differentiate between what a person says and what they are?

As to your last question, nothing but "What's with you and white supremacy?"

Why do you think Cosby is senile?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

289. Pretty much.

In the same way mentally ill people aren't really responsible for crimes they commit, they're not really responsible for racist claptrap they spew.

Sane people who agree with them are a different story.

"So we should ignore what evil things a person says and believe the person is good?"

Where did I say Bill Cosby is good? He's a washed up comedian who hasn't done anything good in twenty years. He belongs in a retirement home, on medicine. I'm not the one here who's apologizing for Bill Cosby.

"Do you want your method applied to the David Dukes of the world?"

1. As far as I know, David Duke is entirely lucid.

2. David Duke and Bill Cosby appear to agree with each other.

"Isn't that the tactics used by clean up PR teams after every speech in which Bush misspeaks once again?"

They claim Bush is mentally ill, and his rhetoric is steeped in white supremacy? That's a new one to me.

"Please explain how you differentiate between what a person says and what they are?"

If they say something racist, like "I agree with Bill Cosby." Unless there's some kind of extenuating circumstance, senility for example.

"As to your last question, nothing but "What's with you and white supremacy?""

There's that, and several other questions you've dodged.

"Why do you think Cosby is senile?"

Fair question. It's all anecdotal, but he seems completely off his rocker the last few years. Not just the racist stuff, but weird public appearances where he seems not entirely there, unable to put a thought together, and so on.

[Terran]

266. Please note

that these are not "black supremacist" groups, they are black "separatist" groups--there is rather a huge difference. And really, it's not 88 different groups since the Nation of Islam is all one group and accounts for about 90% of the list.

[jody]

268. OK, I'm not an expert on the black separatist groups the SPL center tracks but I'll take your word

that black separatist groups do not include "black supremacist" material in their literature.

Thanks for the insight.

[Snarkturian Clone]

269. you are exactly the kind of DUer I was talking about-

the one who acts like a inner city race relations expert from their cushy rural/suburban home. You know nothing.

I agree with Cosby because I experience most of what he said every day. I heard the same points Cosby made from the parents at my school who actually care, long before Cosby ever spoke about it. The problem is that they are on their way out of the neighborhood and will never return. Should I call these parents up and say "NOOO!! You're wroonnnggg! Stop being racist!!!"? The community group whose school I work for is trying desperately to help this community, not hurt it. We're trying to stop the cycle, not continue it.

Our group is trying to be real about what the problems are in the community that can be solved. We are trying to keep the local culture and community from destroying itself. We are trying to break the generational cycle of poverty-- we are trying to give alternatives to the gangs, drugs, welfare, and crime. We offer all kinds of services that give people second and third chances in life- anything to help. At no time do we say "sorry, it's useless to try and help you because the rich white men will keep you down. Have a nice day." Part of solving these problems is acknowledging the fact that they exist- something that certain people think it is racist to do.

The worst part is that only about 20% of the people we try to help make good use of it. The other 80% squander and abuse it. We offer free welfare-to-work classes and 75% of the students will stop showing up after the first week. For the week they were there, they showed up late and talked on their cellphones in class. We give people in the community jobs within our organization. Sometimes it works and great things happen, other times we get robbed or some horrible incident leads to a firing.

You want to call me a racist? Go ahead. It doesn't mean jack shit coming from you. You can also call up my bosses and let them know they are racists too. The admin at my school has been trying to get Cosby to visit from some time now.

As I was trying to say in my other post- my experience is anecdotal. It only represents the community I know about. So as far as the local community I work in goes, Bill Cosby is right.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

287. Yeah, yeah. Bill Cosby's right.

It's got nothing to do with racists in the education system.

:rofl:

[Karenina]

288. You come across as someone burned out

by the daily stress of your job. Your words express contempt for those you are sincerely trying to help. BC expresses the same contempt. Ever wonder why he's ignored your invititation? Do let us know if he decides to show up.

[Irreverend IX]

293. Snarkturian Clone, what effect do you think drug legalization would have?

Without drug money, I expect the gangs would suffocate. I wonder if this would lead to a better life in the poor inner cities or if the decline of the drug market would cause even more despair as one of the only avenues for income was closed off.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

137. poverty, poor education. lack of health care including mental health services.

[Karenina]

143. Ya know, Lioness

These "discussions" on DU just make me sad. The "irrefutable" out-of-context "stats" the OP presents are the RESULTS of what you mention, among MANY other issues, not a cause.

The REAL QUESTION is, how to UNDO what has been created by CENTURIES of barbaric treatment. It's a BIGGIE.

[noiretextatique]

159. if you focus on culture

as republicans and the rw are fond of doing, it absolves one from looking at the reasons why the sub-culture was formed, namely the dominant culture. it would be nice if people could distinguish between discussing an issue and assigning blame to the "white man." the solution is two-fold now (personal and political) because its so entrenched. but the problem was created with intent...that is something many refuse to grasp. the luxury of privilege.

[Karenina]

187. Growing up black in white Amurikkka

You HAVE TO GET IT TO SURVIVE.

Growing up white in white America one has a knapsack of privilege.

[noiretextatique]

194. obama is different

the presumption (by some) seems to indicate a difference between him and a regular african-american man. you know my thoughts on the subject, it seems to be his lineage that embues him with the magical element. according to andrew sullivan, obama's face alone will automatically correct the dynamic in the middle east! i kinda feel sorry for dude...what would happen if his face isn't enough?

[Karenina]

203. I've had the weight of the whole race on my back

many times, as has Debi Thomas. NO ONE from a dominant culture can even IMAGINE what that is like. Obama's bi-racial status... +Murikkkans... I've 2 bi-racial kids who are ALWAYS flies on the wall, NO ONE EVER CONSIDERS THE POSSIBILITY that they are fluent in the language of the places they frequent.

Obama has yet to master cultural, psychic, Ami English...

[noiretextatique]

299. that's his appeal

he's pandering to certain voters while ignoring or outright dissing others. and that makes him "different" than the "race-baiters." but he is a race-baiter, just one who appeals to white voters.
i know your experience...i share it. my confusion about obama is not so much that he is given a pass on his race-baiting, but rather the fact that so many excuse him for it. rather than giving me hope, in some ways his bid, and the hype associated with it, makes me feel less hopeful.

[jody]

196. And sadly others don't even have an empty knapsack. n/t

[fishwax]

198. what do you mean by that? n/t

[jody]

200. Which "that" do you mean? n/t

[fishwax]

202. that "others don't even have an empty knapsack"

The knapsack is a reference to the "invisible knapsack" of white privilege. I'm not sure what your reference to "others" and "empty knapsack" is meaning to convey, and so I'm just asking for clarification.

[jody]

205. The meaning is clear in the context of Karenina's post #187. n/t

[fishwax]

206. I'm reading in that context, but I don't get it. Can you elaborate?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't get the point you're making, and I don't want to respond to something that I'm misunderstanding ... who are the others and why is the knapsack that they don't have empty?

[jody]

211. Apparently you are either having a difficult time reading or are being provocative. I don't have

time to help you with either.

[fishwax]

213. I'm not trying to be provocative, but if you are unable or unwilling to clarify, then so be it

It was a genuine question, and I'm not sure why it should be so difficult to clarify, but no big deal.

[jody]

214. Have a peaceful evening. n/t

[Karenina]

210. You'll need to explain your reference to me too.

as it clearly has little to do with mine. :freak:

[jody]

212. LOL Karenina, you really should pursue a career as a comedian. n/t

[Karenina]

218. WOW, Jody!

:wow: Your OP is flawed and I have attempted to deal with it and you in a respectful, friendly and civil manner, giving you the benefit of the doubt in the hope that our parlays would give food for thought.

You have now taken the road of contempt. Typisch. Vielen Dank, Arschloch. Ich weiss jetzt bescheid und rede nicht mehr um den heißen Brei herum.

[jody]

219. Perhaps my OP is not flawed but you've failed in trying to hijack it for your own purposes.

I'm not sorry because it's been fun playing your little game.

Have a nice evening. :hi:

[Karenina]

221. You're quite a sorry, shallow fellow, Jody.

Geh' mit Gott.

[jody]

236. Are ad hominem attacks your best shot? n/t

[fishwax]

222. whether or not your OP was flawed depends, I suppose, on what your intentions were

since you're unwilling or unable to clarify your posts, I suppose it's hard to tell, though it seems you've shown some of your true colors with this one ... but, hey, as long as you had fun.

[jody]

237. The OP is clear, perhaps the fault lies with the reader. I'm truly sorry you can't contribute to a

discussion of a major crime issue facing millions of Americans every day.

[fishwax]

246. I never said the OP wasn't clear. I questioned the clarity of your intent.

Your OP was, as you say, clear. You provided a series of panicked and completely uncontextualized statistics and comments indicating that black people are violent towards one another. This pretty naturally invites one of two responses. Some people will attempt to put the condition into context, recognizing that problems in the present can't be solved with no consideration of the past. Other people will take the opportunity to attack black culture. To call it lousy. To say that "(black) parents treat their children worse than pets." This, quite naturally, will bring charges of racism in response.

You've applauded the attacks, and you've bemoaned the suggestion of racism.

You've complained a lot in this thread about how people have responded to the it. Perhaps you should take some "personal responsibility" and acknowledge that the responses are all a function of your OP.

[jody]

249. I see no reason to take responsibility for the actions of others who ignore the continued murder of

innocent people in inner cities at rates seven times other communities.

At least I want to discuss possible solutions to the violent crime problem and murder rates rather taking the approach of others who want to rehash history and blame others while setting on the sidelines wring their hands and shouting "Oh woe is me".

Have a nice day.

[fishwax]

261. you're getting closer, Jody--why not just come out and say what you mean?

At least I want to discuss possible solutions to the violent crime problem and murder rates rather taking the approach of others who want to rehash history and blame others while setting on the sidelines wring their hands and shouting "Oh woe is me".

Gotcha: racism isn't the problem, the problem is people talking about racism. :eyes:

If you really want to discuss possible solutions, then why not do it? Instead, most of the discussion on this thread has been about causes. You can blame that on other posters all you want, but it is entirely natural and ought be expected given your OP. And besides, you've spent the bulk of your time in this thread talking about causes as well--being critical and/or dismissive of those who look to historical context for causes, and being supportive of those who blame it on African Americans and their "lousy culture."

You seem to think that everybody who doesn't back Bill Cosby is dancing around the issue or ignoring the problem or "wring(ing) their hands and shouting 'Oh woe is me'", even though some such posters have actually proposed solutions. And yet, you've thanked and encouraged other posters when they've said that Black culture is lousy (even though they haven't really offered solutions) ...

Why hide behind Bill Cosby, or other posters, or the Rush Limbaugh guest host whose column you linked to earlier ... Why not just come out and say it yourself? :shrug:

[jody]

264. I link to many sources, some for their truth value and others because they highlight a false value.

To which guest column in a post I made are you referring?

[fishwax]

275. Walter Williams in post #62 n/t

[jody]

276. Thanks for catching that, I've had a couple of LTTE published ripping Williams for various RW

positions he supports in his columns.

I used him in my post you cited for shock value.

I'll be glad to pay for cocktails and dinner so we can trash Williams and his ilk.

[fishwax]

277. but you agree with his position in the posted article ... what were some of his objectionable views?

[jody]

282. I agree with Cynthia Tucker that Cosby's remarks can spark much needed debate and I stuck

Williams' opinion piece in after a quick google to find other views re Cosby remarks.

I agree with the statement "Cosby's comments, as well as others he made, show that he's willing to address the pressing problems of the black community" in the Williams article I listed which IMO is the point Tucker makes.

[noiretextatique]

283. from karenina's post #160

from the washington post...

Cosby was lauded by white conservatives and some blacks for being brave enough to speak out. But like the price of sneakers that Cosby got wrong, he was incorrect about much of what he said. And Dyson proves as much in his well-researched book.

Dyson begins most chapters with Cosby's own words and then methodically dissects the comments, showing just why the comedian was rattling off nonsense much like his Fat Albert character Mushmouth. "Cosby's remarks are not the isolated ranting of a solo rhetorical gunslinger, but simply the most recent, and the most visible, shot taken at poor blacks in a more-than-century-old class war in black America," Dyson writes in the book's preface.

Dyson, a professor of religious studies at the University of Pennsylvania, deftly demolishes the stereotypes Cosby let loose.

[fishwax]

284. That looks like a great book

I saw Karenina's post last night, and now I've ordered the book from the library. (Once the semester is over, I might even have time to read it :)) I'm interested in both how he refutes Cosby's remarks and the historical frame of class conflict. :hi:

[noiretextatique]

292. i may get it too

i am definitely familiar with the class issues among black people. my great uncle was totally ashamed of his parents, and his siblings who weren't as educated as he (thought) he was. he accomplished a lot in his life (he was the president of his NAACP chapter and was instrumental in deseregating san francisco), however his self-hatred was so deep (and, i think, skin color issues) that he never SAW what the rest of the family (the progeny of his uneducated siblings) accomplished...the family he pretty much abandoned. he would come to visit, and i visited him and his wife, but when i was in college and needed money, imagine my surprise (and other stuff) when i found out the other black student in my dorm was there on a scholarship...from my uncle.
as my aunt was fond of sayinG: why are all the damn fool men in our family :D

sadly...he never really got it before he died. he made his wife's brother (a well-known crook in ny) executor of his estate, and of course, he hasn't been able to account for my uncle's money.

that's my (partial) tale of class/color woe.

[fishwax]

294. Thanks for sharing your (partial) story, noiretblu

but when i was in college and needed money, imagine my surprise (and other stuff) when i found out the other black student in my dorm was there on a scholarship...from my uncle. :wow:

Thanks for offering your story :hi:

[noiretextatique]

298. check out this for more details

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=258&topic_id=288&mesg_id=4456

about my fascinating life :hi:

[Irreverend IX]

220. I know of one legislative action that would instantly decimate violent crime...

Legalize drugs. Whatever cultural and economic issues are behind the epidemic of gang activity in the inner cities, gangs will have no reason for being once they're no longer profitable. Drug prohibition is one of the main reasons that gangs have become so powerful in the inner cities.

[noiretextatique]

228. stop making sense, please

thanks :hi:

[killbotfactory]

256. The Drug war has always been racist, and it has always been about oppressing people

It has NEVER been about protecting people.

Most of the times illegal drugs are illegal due to their popularity with minorities, not because they are better or worse than legal alternatives.

[goodgd_yall]

229. Racism

A long history of bigotry and hate toward Blacks in America has deeply affected the psyche of generations of blacks as well as practically affected them through unequal access to education, housing, health care, and employment.

[Karenina]

235. Racism is toxic to EVERYONE

and is a fundamental reason that Americans have gone along so far with committing genocide in Iraq.

American ghettos are like WAR ZONES and have been for generations. That they remain so serves the interests of the power structure. "Debating" on DU why people kill each other under such conditions is disingenuous, mental masturbation.

[goodgd_yall]

255. Yes

Racism is toxic to everyone. I was going to add more to my post, but I didn't want to dilute the message that black people have been treated inhumanely for generations. Why do we seem so puzzled that there are problems within many black communities?

[noiretextatique]

280. the denial is an integral part of the psycho dynamic

racism allows the majority to blame the culture of the minority vs. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for the intentional, active, heinous powerr and policies of the majority. here on DU, for example, most discussions about race tend to focus on the personal experience of discrimination, so i hear "everybody can be racist" a lot. i can see why the OP came out swinging in this thread, even though it did attract some denialists, at least this is a better discussion on this subject than many.

[Junkdrawer]

241. Well, since my 13 year old was robbed of his Halloween candy at gunpoint...

I'm going to find the voluntary searches less than shocking.

[Brother_1969]

278. Deep down, we know what the problem is and how to solve it.

The problem's sources are racism, poverty, easy availability of guns, and governmental policies designed to perpetuate chaos in the black community (because some financially benefit from it). These are not all independent but the steps to solution are not complicated:

First, we must guarantee (and deliver) an acceptable and dignified level of housing, food, transportation, and medical care for all people in this country (including those who lack "documentation").

Second, we must address the problems of easy gun availability and loopholes that allow it. The DC City Council had it right in banning gun ownership -- this ban should obviously be extended nationwide. If the present, hard-right Supreme Court overturns it, then the next (presumably Democrat) administration must make repealing of the Second Amendment a top priority.

Third, we must investigate and terminate those government programs, overt and covert, that are designed to interfere with the lives and families of minorities. Any inner city black family can testify to the government's involvement in stimulating drug use by the black population there. These claims must be verified.

Finally, this country must get serious about paying the reparations that it rightfully owes to the black population for the centuries of slavery, oppression, and racism.

If we take these simple and obvious steps then many of the social pathologies of the inner cities will evaporate. It is not a conceptually difficult problem.

[fishwax]

281. welcome to DU, Brother_1969!

:hi:

[Irreverend IX]

291. "the next administration must make repealing the Second Amendment a top priority"

If the party tries to repeal the 2nd, or even discusses it, they will guarantee an eternity of Republican rule.

[jody]

295. You make several interesting points but I must disagree with you on the right to keep and bear arms.

I assume you know SCOTUS has said government is not obligated to protect an individual unless she/he is in custody. That means self-defense is a personal problem.

It's OK for some to just say why don't law-abiding citizens move away from violent crime areas like inner cities but an intelligent person knows that's not possible for millions of people at risk.

Given then that self-defense is a personal problem, what tools are most effective/efficient for doing that job?

The answer is handguns, the choice of 836 thousand full-time sworn law enforcement officers. Their right to keep and bear arms for self-defense is granted by the government that administers their oath of office it is not an inalienable right.

The question for law-abiding citizens then is what is the most effective/efficient tool to use for self-defense given that some states recognize that self-defense is a natural, inherent, inalienable right.

The obvious answer is handguns just as used by law enforcement offices in their duties.

As long as violent crime grows unchecked and government is impotent to curb murders, then each person is responsible for defending herself or himself. It's even more powerful when groups of law-abiding citizens pledge to help each other defend them selves against violent criminals.

[mtnester]

279. The scariest part of this? Everyone thinks this is JUST in the innner cities

So wrong.

[jody]

296. Agree however murder rates are much higher in inner cities. n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

290. My 2 cents.

I know a black lady, elderly, who takes in foster children. She has always tried to make sure the teenaged girls are on birth control, like the 12-week shot, or Norplant. However, one of her girls has two babies already at the age of 21 and another one who is a high schooler is pregnant.

She went to college for a couple of years at Dillard U., and I consider her to be pretty well educated and aware of what's going on. She told me the foster kids all watch rap on the TV set, they never watch the news or anything informative.

I was at her place one weeknight at 7, so I showed her where MSNBC was, and she watched Keith on Countdown for the first time!! She didn't even KNOW she had MSNBC on her cable lineup!!

She liked the show a lot.

This is in a rural area.

[jody]

297. I've had similar experiences with similar white foster parents. n/t