So, you call yourself a Christian...

[Mythsaje]

Are you for torturing our enemies the way Christ was tortured by the Romans, or are you for the appeal of justice being meted out equally to those who may seek to do us harm?

Do you approve of doing everything in our power to avoid war, or are you likely to take an impotent threat as a call to action?

Do you believe that poverty is a curse visited upon people by God, or that Christ taught that poverty is a scourge that we can fight together?

Do you believe that any man or woman can be redeemed, regardless of their "sins," or that some are beyond redemption?

Do you believe that God is the ultimate judge and that only those without sin have a right to stand in his place, or do you believe that you, as a "righteous" man or woman, have the right to call down judgment on those with whom you disagree?

Do you believe that unborn children deserve protection, but those who are born and suffering are on their own?

Do you believe that all ethnicities of humanity are equal in the eyes of God, or do you believe that YOUR ethnicity is somehow superior?

Do you believe that women are inherently inferior to men, or do you believe that ALL of us, male and female alike, are made in the image of God?

Do you believe that foreigners are worthy of only suspicion and distrust, or do you accept the notion that anyone can be a positive force in the community, regardless of their origins?

Do you believe in offering a helping hand to those less fortunate than yourself, or do you believe in extending a restraining hand to keep them in their place?

Christ was rather clear on what kind of people he considered to be "His" people. If you believe that God wants you to be successful at the expense of others, judgmental to the point of offering violence to those with which you disagree, willing to visit torture upon those you fear, and dismissive of the needs of those less fortunate than yourself, you may want to rethink your self-identification. Christ would not recognize his words in your actions or beliefs. And isn't that the ultimate litmus test?

[NanceGreggs]

1. First REC!

Absolutely FANTASTIC!!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. Another K&R

:-)

[brazos121200]

3. That IS the ultimate litmus test.

And I'm afraid many who call themselves Christian fall short. There is a movement of liberal Christians to rebuild the progressive Protestant church which has been on the decline in recent years. There is a good book dealing with this liberal Christian resurgence "Towers in the Light" by James Albert Flurer. It is a good history of the beliefs and teachings of the Mainline church.

[msongs]

4. ummm isnt the Jesus character the living one who taught and christ is the dead/risen one? nt

[DCKit]

5. K&R&B

I can't wait 'till the next family member tries to convert me so I can send this back to them.

Thanks for the second time today Mythsaje!

[Cha]

6. The religiously insane are using Jesus'

Name for profit and the Christian Religion is infested with false profits.

Not everyone, of course, there are lots of Real Christians out there who think of The Christ as The Prince Of Peace~

[Catshrink]

7. I've always thought of them as Old Testament Christians

who believe in hell and damnation and punishment. These are in contrast to New Testament Christians who believe and try to follow the teachings of Jesus. There's a huge difference, obviously.

[Jade Fox]

8. If you happen to have caught the PBS Nova special aired last night....

you will see a stellar example of hypocrites calling themselves Christians.

The show was about an attempt to get "Intelligent Design" taught as science in a public school in PA. It ended up in court, and when the verdict was delivered not only did the Intelligent Design people lose, the got their collective asses handed to them for telling so many lies. The Bush-appointed, Republican Federal Judge recommended they be charged with perjury.

I've never seen so clearly how people can make the decision they are doing God's bidding, and so don't have to follow the rules themselves. These are the people who want to put the Ten Commandments on government buildings, but don't seem to think "Thou Shalt Not Lie" applies to them.

[ulysses]

9. #14.

:thumbsup:

[The Doctor.]

10. How can so many be so blind...

I've used such examples to challenge people's self-proclaimed Christianity only to be told that it's "God's will".

How arrogant, how presumptious. How can these people deign to speak for Christ when his message was so very clear?

Thank you for this.

[Festivito]

12. Which would you choose?

They hear sweetness from the pulpit, and sourness from DU.

The sweetness of strength, kindness, and all things good -- as the minister puts it. (He gets his text from monied sources. But, your question is not about him, it's about the blind.)

Versus,

The sourness of YOU MUST BE STUPID.

So, which would you follow?

[yardwork]

19. I dunno. I've heard a lot of sermons where the message was "You Are Stupid and Damned!!!"

There are a lot of churches around the country that aren't doing much "sweetness from the pulpit" or anywhere else. The message is overwhelmingly negative - damnation, fire, torture, eternity of agony, and so forth and so on. Quite sado-masochistic, really. Check out Mel Gibson's movie, The Passion of the Christ.

The parishioners' usual conversations around coffee and biscuits after the service aren't much better, either. Backbiting gossip, mean-spirited snipes at people not present, etc.

I'm not saying all churches. But a lot of them don't seem to pay much attention to Jesus's actual words.

Durn - can't spell today.

[Festivito]

24. No, I don't think so. It's is generally THEY are stupid and damned.

The message is sweet. It says to look at them: sinners, abortionists, gays, etc. Oh, and us too. But, not like them. (Not spoken like that last sentence, just implied with brow beating speeches and strategic followups.)

It blinds them to the real words.

[The Doctor.]

22. I don't usually tell them they're stupid...

I just ask them where Jesus said war is good or necessary. If they choose to feel stupid at that point, good.

I follow wisdom the best I can, that means if someone calls me 'stupid' I'm inclined to ask "about what?". The worst that can happen is I learn something, either that, or I find the accuser lacking.

Christ told his followers to pursue wisdom, not ignorance. If people wish only to hear that they are good and wise, there is not much anyone can do about it. I find it is worth making them uncomfortable with their hypocrisy. There is a chance, however small, that they may realize that inconsistency with Christ's teachings and begin to change. I have seen it happen. At the very least, I'm happy to irritate them with their own ignorance.

[Festivito]

23. The gotcha scenario is not very welcoming.

We need those misguided souls for a super majority. It would do our adversaries well to insure that we do not get that.

This corruption is money driven more than it is non-realization of the correct teachings.

I wish I knew the answer to it all.

[The Doctor.]

27. So 'we' must cater to their holy bloodlust?

I understand what you are saying. Wealth and Power have diverted the path of the otherwise righteous. You are therefore saying that 'we' must utilize that current pathos rather than providing an alternative more in keeping with their purported faith?

That is the path to wretchedness my friend.

Do you not understand?

[Festivito]

31. When I call them misguided, I would NOT promote their misguidedness.

So, if that is the pathos you portend, then no.

Our state is already wretched.

The question: Why are SO MANY blind?

We are not reaching them, and we are letting, somehow, others, bad others to reach them.

Liken it to a tree filled with all the fruit we need. I see the DU Dems hacking at a branch saying bad branch of religion, hack, hack, while Cons grab fruit, yes, brutishly grab, bruising it, but they have the fruit for power and all we have is a hacked branch and disillusioned fallen fruits bruised on the ground.

I don't like the way some branches grow either, but it's the fruit I want.

BTW, the OPers idea is good, it comes off a little angry, but it's good. Nance's was really good although she often seems angry, this last time not. But, really, I was just concentrating on your question.

[Quantess]

11. Great!

[NYVet]

13. It looks like I am going to be the only one to answer your questions.

Are you for torturing our enemies the way Christ was tortured by the Romans, or are you for the appeal of justice being meted out equally to those who may seek to do us harm?
I believe in forgiveness, but that a man or woman should also be held responsible for their actions. If a man or woman steals from someone, there should be some sort of restitution.

Do you approve of doing everything in our power to avoid war, or are you likely to take an impotent threat as a call to action?
War is an ugly thing that should be as a last resort. Good and evil DO exist in the world and sometimes evil must be defeated by force.

Do you believe that poverty is a curse visited upon people by God, or that Christ taught that poverty is a scourge that we can fight together?
It is a scourge that people suffer, and people should be given a hand up by their fellow man. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

Do you believe that any man or woman can be redeemed, regardless of their "sins," or that some are beyond redemption?
People can be redeemed if they are sincere in their remorse. For me to say that I could forgive those who intentionally harm little children and take the inocense of the most innocent in our society, may be a lie because I have a special hatred in my heart for them. And yes, I do know that my hatred is contrary to the teachings of Christ.

Do you believe that God is the ultimate judge and that only those without sin have a right to stand in his place, or do you believe that you, as a "righteous" man or woman, have the right to call down judgment on those with whom you disagree?
Nobody is above judgement, but many times that judgement is not received on this earth. It is also not my place to pass judgement on everyone.

Do you believe that unborn children deserve protection, but those who are born and suffering are on their own?
The unborn are living beings and deserve protection. Those who are suffering do deserve assistance until they are able to stand on their own two feet and take care of themselves, if possible.

Do you believe that all ethnicities of humanity are equal in the eyes of God, or do you believe that YOUR ethnicity is somehow superior?
White is no better than Red, yellow, black, brown or any other color. It is the color of the skin, i is the content of the heart.

Do you believe that women are inherently inferior to men, or do you believe that ALL of us, male and female alike, are made in the image of God?
I judge inferiority not by sex, but by the actions of the person.

Do you believe that foreigners are worthy of only suspicion and distrust, or do you accept the notion that anyone can be a positive force in the community, regardless of their origins?
Considering that many of my ancestors came from overseas and in the service I served alongside people from around the world, I judge people by their actions, not their zip code.

Do you believe in offering a helping hand to those less fortunate than yourself, or do you believe in extending a restraining hand to keep them in their place?
Being on the top of the mountain is lonely, and I will give my neighbors a hand up as so that they can become prosperous as well.

Christ was rather clear on what kind of people he considered to be "His" people. If you believe that God wants you to be successful at the expense of others, judgmental to the point of offering violence to those with which you disagree, willing to visit torture upon those you fear, and dismissive of the needs of those less fortunate than yourself, you may want to rethink your self-identification. Christ would not recognize his words in your actions or beliefs. And isn't that the ultimate litmus test?
Yes.

[Quantess]

14. So you're a Democrat, then. (eom)

[Mrspeeker]

16. well i was in the process but you beat me to it

and I love your answers :)

[Festivito]

34. Nice job! Nice tone. Very even handed.

We need to have more Christians wake to what is really happening, and your type of response helps that effort. Thank you.

[Swamp Rat]

15. WWJB

[NightWatcher]

17. exactly. I want that as my bumper sticker as we build up for Iran

[The Straight Story]

18. Yeah, but with separation of church and state, whatya gonna do?

:hide: :rofl:

[Basileus Basileon]

20. It's shocking how many self-described Christians managed

to completely miss Jesus's message. He was fairly clear on what he said.

[Blackhatjack]

21. Christians are as flawed as other people, but they recognize they are flawed & ask for forgiveness..

Christians are not 'perfect people.'

ALL PEOPLE are God's people. He created all of them.

Keep in mind that 'right wing conservative fundamentalists' do not represent all Christians any moreso than NEOCON War Loving Republicans represent all AMericans.

[SidDithers]

25. They're all still Christians...

Though they might want to exclude you too, for not following their interpretation of the christian faith.

Sid

[Mythsaje]

30. I'm not a Christian. I exclude myself. n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

26. Well, I believe

That we are called to try to turn the other cheek, but also to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Justice is the thing to strive for, not vengeance. Torture has no part in that.

War is to be avoided at all costs. I do not have a problem with a truly defensive war.

Poverty is a continuing reminder to us of our failure to do unto the least of these... When we learn to care for one another, the other person's poverty will be our shame.

Everyone can be redeemed. No loyalty oaths or particular creeds required. If you wish to be with God, you will be.

I believe in God's judgement, but I think we'll find it surprising. As a universalist, I think it will piss the heck out of some "righteous" people to be sharing an afterlife with all the riff-raff they felt were so below them in this life.

I believe we need to care for the children here today, and work together to prevent unwanted pregnancies. But a woman's right to her own body is basic, and inherent, in our humanity.

We are all loved by God, who sees far beyond skin color. Race is a human construct, and a flawed one.

Women are in no way inferior.

We're called on to welcome the stranger, feed the poor, house the homeless, clothe those in need, comfort the sick...

We fail, constantly. But that's the goal.

[sakabatou]

28. And then you have the fundamentalists

Who think they have everything right and yet, they're pretty much, completely wrong.

Once again I turn to Fundies Say the Darndest Things!

[Bake]

29. Yes. And no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and no.

Does that answer your questions?

Bake

[malaise]

32. Great post

Kick.

[wicket]

33. Let's see:

1 - equal justice
2 - avoid war at all costs
3 - fight poverty together
4 - redemption
5 - god is the judge
6 - I'm pro-choice (very much so)
7 - we're all equal
8 - again, we're all equal, I'm a feminist
9 - anyone can be a positive force
10 - help anyone who needs it
11 - yes

I belong to the United Church of Christ, a very liberal denomination. We fly the rainbow flag in support of gay rights & marriage.

[SharkSquid]

35. Good Post

Couple things:

"Do you believe that unborn children deserve protection, but those who are born and suffering are on their own?"

I am sure the theological argument is that the unborn are completely innocent and (if catholic) have not been able to be baptized, the born have at least had that chance.


"Do you believe that foreigners are worthy of only suspicion and distrust, or do you accept the notion that anyone can be a positive force in the community, regardless of their origins?"

Alot of republicans actually like immigrants, most of the ones I work with are very involved in charities in Imokalee and Bell Glade focused on immigrant populations. I think thier christianity can sometimes trump the illegal/legal distinction which I think is the sticking point for rational conservatives.


See just as promised, only a couple... :)