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To be free or not to be free, that is the question.

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Labors of Hercules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:52 AM
Original message
To be free or not to be free, that is the question.
With debates raging about everything from climate change to health care, they all seem to boil down to one thing: Freedom.

What do you think?

What rights and freedoms should the people (not corporations) enjoy that have been taken away? AND/OR...

What rights and freedoms do certain people (and corporations) enjoy that should be legislated against for the greater good?

:popcorn:
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Labors of Hercules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. In answer:
1) Access to good healthcare at a reasonable or no cost.
2) SUV's are destroying the national seashore, they should be restricted to areas where the environmental impact will be minimal.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
3.  Who shall be forced to provide this freedom for you?


Access to good healthcare at a reasonable or no cost


Are doctors and nurses to be the new indentured servants?
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Labors of Hercules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. They are already indentured servants...
Edited on Sun Nov-11-07 12:20 PM by Labors of Hercules
To the industry, the clinic, hospital or other institution they work for, and ultimately, to the person who writes their paychecks...

That's the problem. They are no longer even allowed to be servants to their patients.

We must all provide this freedom for each other, and (on edit: especially for our health care providers).
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. No, they just do their job as they always do.
Some MD's/DO's might have to put aside their entitlement mentality however. But I'm sure even in places like Montreal or Paris a Dr. will be well rewarded for their skills.
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. The right to privacy is a big one.
There are conservatives who believe there's no such thing as an inherent right to privacy for individuals. Going by that logic there should be no right to privacy for corporations.

Free speech is another one. If my rights to free speech end at my employer's doorstep, why do corporations have no such limit?
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Labors of Hercules Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. good question!
At what point does the reasonable need for discovery (criminal investigation) violate our rights to privacy and free speech? Is it ever appropriate or even possible to restrict individuals (especially in the media) from lying or distorting the facts (which they do all the time) to suit their own ends?
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haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Right to privacy ends when it negatively impacts someone else's rights
Edited on Sun Nov-11-07 01:46 PM by haele
Same as free speech and religion. There is no right to slander, libel, or conspiracy to commit or promote a crime. There is no right for a religious litmus test to hold government-related office or job of any type, or to discriminate against others in cases where one is providing a basic, community, or otherwise general service or contract. The issue gets muddied when corporations claim person-hood, and put their rights to exist and do business above the rights of the employees and community around "it",not to mention the customers of it's product.

An individual who, through criminal neglect or malicious intent, harms or kills another individual or their property will go to trial and then to prison for a fairly long time, in effect, putting that person's life "on hold" until some form of restitution is made. A corporation doing the same thing will get punished - maybe - with a fine and "bad press" - but it continues doing business. In fact, most large corporations will weigh the cost of a fine and bad press against profits when they are deciding whether to "do the right thing" and fix a potentially fatal problem, or blow off fixing the problem and perhaps kill hundreds of people, destroying their families lives because they know all they'll have to do is pay the fine - those dead bodies, ruined lives or families struggling to stay out of poverty mean nothing, because they don't exist on the same level as the corporation.
It's a matter of how much money can be used to smooth things out; there's this assumption that lots of money means you're a good, smart person with a lot of power, so you deserve everything you get.

The problem is the 20th century view of Mensch and Ubermensch - the Straussian school of social economics. People who work for money are morally inferior, stupid or intellectually lazy. A worker is a tool, no more worth than say, a truck, lathe or cutter. People who buy products designed and made by others are just the final function of creating a the product; there is little more worth to being a consumer in a corporate process as there is to being a package. In the Straussian world, those who have others work for them and money handed to them are morally superior and obviously the ones Ghod meant to rule over any process in which they put themselves. It's actually counter-Constitutional, even though the Straussians hide behind the Constitution to claim their personal "rights" as Corporate beings above those of the People and the general welfare of the United States.

As a side, if you hear the political term "liberal" in almost every other country but the US, it means libertarian/corporatist rather than progressive or socially democratic. In fact, the current "Neo-Cons" were originally called "Neo-Liberals", but with the advent of Falwell's Moral Majority with it's "Compassionate Conservative" meme, they switched the name to foster a positive associate with the so-called Religious Right.

Haele
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. That's fine but I was talking about those who choose to give corporations
unfettered free speech while suppressing the free speech of individuals.
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