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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:19 AM
Original message
Sibel Edmonds Case: the untellable story of AIPAC
Last week, former FBI translator Sibel Edmonds, announced that she was willing to tell everything that she knows if any of the major networks are willing to give her airtime, without airbrushing the essence of her case. Bradblog will have an update on the progress, or lack of it, next week.

Of course, Sibel would prefer to testify under oath in congress, but apparently our Democratic Congresscritters (I'm looking at you, Waxman) don't care about the treason, bribery, and corruption that has hijacked US foreign policy.

Meanwhile, last week we learnt that the judge in the AIPAC case has allowed subpoenas to be issued to 15 current and former high-level officials. Many of us are excited about the prospect of the trial - but Sibel assures us that the case, as it stands, is just the tip of the iceberg.

'AIPAC' is at the core of Sibel's case, and Sibel’s story needs to be heard - either in Congress, or in the media.

****

Those of you who have been following Sibel's case will be familiar with the American Turkish Council (ATC) - the 'mini-AIPAC' that (ostensibly) exists to promote Turkey's military interests in the US.

As it happens, the ATC is a creation of AIPAC (and other Israeli lobbying interests) - and there is significant overlap in the membership, goals and activities of both AIPAC and the ATC. This is perhaps not surprising given the long-standing tri-lateral military (and military 'defense' spending) relationship between the three countries. In fact, Sibel refers to AIPAC and the ATC as 'sister organizations.'

Not only were the ATC and AIPAC 'sister organizations,' they also had something else in common: there have been 'sister investigations' into both organizations. And of course, both investigations uncovered serious criminality at the highest levels of the US administration - Congress, the Pentagon and the State Department.

Sibel described the overlap in this interview with Antiwar's Chris Deliso in 2005:

SE: Look, I think that that ultimately involves more than just Israelis – I am talking about countries, not a single country here. Because despite however it may appear, this is not just a simple matter of state espionage. If (Patrick) Fitzgerald and his team keep pulling, really pulling, they are going to reel in much more than just a few guys spying for Israel.

CD: A monster, 600-pound catfish, huh? So the Turkish and Israeli investigations had some overlap?

SE: Essentially, there is only one investigation – a very big one, an all-inclusive one. Completely by chance, I, a lowly translator, stumbled over one piece of it.

But I can tell you there are a lot of people involved, a lot of ranking officials, and a lot of illegal activities that include multi-billion-dollar drug-smuggling operations, black-market nuclear sales to terrorists and unsavory regimes, you name it. And of course a lot of people from abroad are involved. It's massive. So to do this investigation, to really do it, they will have to look into everything.

CD: But you can start from anywhere –

SE: That's the beauty of it. You can start from the AIPAC angle. You can start from the Plame case. You can start from my case. They all end up going to the same place, and they revolve around the same nucleus of people. There may be a lot of them, but it is one group. And they are very dangerous for all of us.


In 2004, Knight Ridder's Warren Strobel and Jonathon Landay confirmed that the 'AIPAC case' was much more serious than anything that has seen the light of day so far:


"Several U.S. officials and law-enforcement sources said yesterday that the scope of the FBI probe of Pentagon intelligence activities appeared to go well beyond the Franklin matter.

FBI agents have briefed top White House, Pentagon and State Department officials on the probe. Based on those briefings, officials said, the bureau appears to be looking into other controversies that have roiled the Bush administration, some of which also touch Feith's office.

They include how the Iraqi National Congress, a former exile group backed by the Pentagon, allegedly received highly classified U.S. intelligence on Iran; the leaking of the name of CIA officer Valerie Plame to reporters; and the production of bogus documents suggesting that Iraq tried to buy uranium for nuclear weapons from the African country of Niger. Bush repeated the Niger claim in making the case for war against Iraq.

"The whole ball of wax" was how one U.S. official privy to the briefings described the inquiry."


Keep in mind that the FBI operation against AIPAC et al goes back to at least 1999 - so they were watching all of the relevant characters throughout this period. In fact, you'll note that Strobel refers to "the FBI probe of Pentagon intelligence activities" - apparently the Pentagon, particularly Doug Feith's Office of Special Plans, was itself the 'target' of the investigation.

Investigations shut down.
What happened to that Pentagon investigation? Why aren't Doug Feith, Richard Perle and others in prison? I can only presume that this particular investigation was shut down, just like so many other investigations into these criminals.

In a recent interview
Sibel described some cases that were shut down. The case referred to in this excerpt is apparently an Israeli counter-intelligence case:

"There are other cases we are not hearing about that I'm aware of that have to do with similar cases, maybe having to do with other countries. For example, again this is another relevant case, an outside case, the Larry Franklin case, with the espionage case that they pursued with AIPAC. And what the American public doesn’t know is the fact that there were other counter-intelligence operations within the FBI that obtained far more information not only limited to Mr. Franklin, that were similarly shut down in 2000 and 2001 because they ended up going to higher levels and involving maybe way too many people, US persons. I’m talking about individuals who are breaking the law, misusing the trust and abusing their power, and in some cases I would even say engaging in treason."


And here Sibel describes the same thing taking place within Turkish counter-intelligence:

Now the same thing was about to take place with Turkish counter-intelligence. In the main portion of the documented — wiretapped or paper — operations that I translated verbatim (not only for the Washington Field Office but also for the Chicago and New Jersey offices), they were obtained before 2001. If we were to put a date on it you’re looking at end of 1996 to 2001. Now, in 1998 and 1999, there were so many pieces of evidence of U.S. individuals’ involvement. We’re talking about people with official positions, whether they were in the State Department or the Pentagon or the U.S. Congress that forced the Justice Dept, and the good agents who did the right thing, they started a parallel investigation that targeted these individuals who were possibly committing acts of treason.

However, as I was told by first-source agents I was working with, this was put on hold in 1999 because President Clinton was then going through the Lewinsky scandal. After the current administration came into power and after I was working there, the agents were told to shut down.


Similar allegations
Sibel isn't the only person who claims that investigations like this have been shut down. For example, in Kill The Messenger, ex-CIA agent Phil Giraldi says:

All of these people (Richard Perle, Doug Feith) have been investigated by the FBI at one point or another for passing secret information to Israel. In no cases, were any of them convicted. The prosecutions were dropped… in my opinion because of political pressure not to get into this kind of case that involves Israel and espionage.


Similarly, Laura Rozen and Jason Vest reported in Prospect:

"Since the Pollard case, U.S. intelligence and law-enforcement sources have revealed to the Prospect that at least six sealed indictments have been issued against individuals for espionage on Israel's behalf. It's a testament to the unique relationship between the United States and Israel that those cases were never prosecuted; according to the same sources, both governments ultimately addressed them through diplomatic and intelligence channels rather than air the dirty laundry. A number of career Justice Department and intelligence officials who have worked on Israeli counterespionage told the Prospect of long-standing frustration among investigators and prosecutors who feel that cases that could have been made successfully against Israeli spies were never brought to trial, or that the investigations were shut down prematurely."


Sibel often makes the same point. The FBI agents in the field are doing a great job, however:

The people who made that decision (to shut down the investigation) were not the Justice Department or the FBI, and that’s what I try to emphasize all the time — they were pressured, they were forced by higher-up forces within the Pentagon and the State Department.


That is, the guilty parties at the Pentagon and State Dept have the power to stomp on investigations into their own illegal activities. And as Sibel says, these people were involved in criminal activity, not just simple state-based espionage.

As reported in Vanity Fair:

"In fact, much of what Edmonds reportedly heard seemed to concern not state espionage but criminal activity. There was talk, she told investigators, of laundering the profits of large-scale drug deals and of selling classified military technologies to the highest bidder."


Once we understand that simple fact, this report from Washington Post makes more sense:

"Reports on the investigation have baffled foreign policy analysts and U.S. officials because the Bush administration and the government of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon already cooperate on intelligence matters and share policy views. Despite some rocky moments, the relationship has been among the United States' closest in both policy and intelligence sharing since Israel was founded almost six decades ago."


Current AIPAC case
As I've demonstrated, the current 'AIPAC' case involving Keith Weissman and Steve Rosen receiving information from Larry Franklin barely scratches the surface of the underlying crimes that these investigations have yielded, and even this very limited case may never see the light of day. In an apparent greymail attempt, the defense has called 15 current and former government officials to testify - including Condi Rice, Douglas Feith, Stephen Hadley, Elliott Abrams and Richard Armitage. In fact, in Judge Ellis' opinion last week, he gave the admistration this offer ultimatum:

"The government's refusal to comply with a subpoena in these circumstances may result in dismissal or a lesser sanction"


Surely the administration won't refuse that offer ultimatum.

There was, however, one interesting piece of news in the judge's ruling last week. In footnote 8, page 7, Judge Ellis wrote

"The government does not object to the issuance of subpoenas to Franklin, Satterfield, Pollack, or Makovsky."


JTA, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, reported, without elaboration, that:

"The government did not raise objections to the four subpoenas for officials who were identified in the indictment."


If this is correct, then one of the mysteries of the case has apparently (nearly) been solved. In the original indictment, the unindicted co-conspirators were addressed using codewords. We now know that Ken Pollack was USGO-1, David Satterfield was USGO-2 but we didn't know the identities of two others: "DoD employee A" and "DoD employee B."

"DoD employee A" played the trivial, and quite possibly innocent, role of telling Rosen that Larry Franklin was an expert on Iran. On the other hand, "DoD employee B" was a willing participant in at least one espionage-related meeting with Rosen, Weissman and Franklin.

Michael Makovsky, one of Larry Franklin's co-workers at the OSP is apparently either "DoD employee A" or "DoD employee B." If he is "DoD employee B," why hasn't he been indicted?

One Remaining Mystery
Given all this history, the one remaining mystery is how on earth this current 'AIPAC' trial has come as far as it has. Laura Rozen and Jason Vest reported:

This history (of shutting down investigations) had led to informed speculation that the FBI -- fearing the Franklin probe was heading toward the same silent end -- leaked the story to CBS to keep it in the public eye and give it a fighting chance.


Three and a half years later, it appears that the fight is over. Larry Franklin has pled guilty, but even if the AIPAC case goes forward, most of the underlying crimes, and most of the criminal perpetrators, will go unpunished.

One Last Chance
Sibel has evidence of the underlying crimes. She knows who the criminals are. She wants to testifyunder oath in Congress but the spineless Democrats, particularly Henry Waxman, want her to keep quiet about these issues.

In an act of desperation, Sibel has bravely offered to tell all, at great personal (both legal and physical) risk, if one of the major networks will air her story. Given the history, Sibel's offer is the only chance we'll have to hear any of these remarkable allegations.

Waxman can be contacted in DC: (202)225-3976 and LA:323 651-1040. The toll free Capitol switchboard number is 800-828-0498. See if you can shame him into doing something.

The blog We Can Change The World has put together a list (with contact details) of journalists and media outlets that have (partially) covered Sibel's story in the past. If you contact those journalists, perhaps they'll be willing to at least write about Sibel's offer - which might put pressure on either Waxman or one of the networks to actually take up the offer.

******
cross-posted at Let Sibel Edmonds Speak

( Email me
if you want to be added to my Sibel email list. Subject: 'Sibel email list')
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. What an interesting comparison. It's easy to focus on...
...one particular case at the expense of understanding the broader picture, so thanks for posting that. I don't see people taking too much time to do analysis like that here anymore and even though I don't agree with all of your assertions but I appreciate you taking the time to present your case.

PB
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. errrrrrr
thanks - but which pieces don't you agree with?
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Sorry, I didn't mean that part as a back-handed compliment. It was mostly...
...your criticism of Waxman, who I trust alot, that caused me to put the asterisk in my comments. Then again, I recall all too well the complicity of certain Democrats (esp. Toricelli) during the scandal following the Waco fire in the 90's. Sometimes politicians you believe you know and trust act completely out of character on certain issues and that can lead to alot of cognitive dissonance.

PB
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Pelosi
Some may call it 'Pelosi Factor':-)
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
36. Or the DLC factor. n/t
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I've written a lot about the
...Waxman side of the story in the past - so i didnt cover it too much here

for more, see http://letsibeledmondsspeak.blogspot.com/
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waterdancer Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
81. Digg this great piece by Lukery
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Bruce McAuley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. Who's yer daddy, George?
Good roundup!
Thanks

Bruce
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
Well-written, factual, fabulous as always, lukery. Thank you!
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. Joe Biden "A whole lot of things across the board that are going to get uncovered"
he is only genericly familiar with Sibel Edmonds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu-FtNOhqWQ




I can't believe he is genericly familiar with Sibel Edmonds! And he still says there is a whole lot of things that ARE going to get uncovered.


Sibel Edmonds and other Whistleblowers Group
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=344
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. i saw that SLAD
thanks.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Thanks you for the link
I had not seen this one before!
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. The answer is simple:
If she's really ready to go to jail, and really wants to get her story out there, she should deep six the major network/no editing idea, and go on Democracy Now! or do a Youtube video, or both.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. ...where most of the general public would never hear about it,
and Sibel would be locked up anyway, and the story would die.
The Corporate Media Cartel still controls what's in the "public consciousness", although their absolute control is on the downswing.
Sibel's Youtube Video would not "deep six" the corp. media at this point. I think she's playing her cards right-- if she's going to sacrifice herself, she wants it to have an impact. Not just a little, flash-in-the-blogosphere impact either.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Very Good Point
Also, remember the Vanity Fair articles in August 2005 & the hush/silence following the publication?

Okay, now I rest my case:-)
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I agree. Whistleblowing on YouTube, unless it's something small and...
...relatively specific (like the DeKort account) doesn't do all that much when compared to going through a major news organization. Like the AT&T whistleblower on Olbermann.

  A MSNBC (via Olbermann)/DemocracyNow release would be good but wider dissemination is always better.

PB
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I completely disagree. It would become a HUGE story if she
was jailed- corporate media notwithstanding. she is never going to get the big networks to give her what she's asking for, and what about VPR or NPR- NPR in particular has a big audience.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Can't Count on That!
I'm afraid we can't count on that. The sorry state of our MSM is sorrier than it seems;-)
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
53. Really
Just look at the biggest election fraud stories of the last two Presidential elections - they were covered by BBC, Vanity Fair, Salon, The Nation and just about every Internet outlet you can name. Yet the MSM never touched em. So much for catapulting from alternative/net to mainstream. I don't think Edmonds strategy has a chance in hell, but I see her point.
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
58. Doubt that she would rot and TouTube would delet anything put on it!


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. It's the deep-sixing of the BIG CRIMES that has proved to be MOST DANGEROUS
for the nation and the world, not to mention for our own party.

Sibel is witness to the CONTINUATION of the BFEE's crimespree from the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

Those outstanding matters SHOULD NEVER have been swept under the rug for Poppy and his cronies.

http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
74. Thank you -- Robt Parry! Believable and SAD tale re Clinton's naivete --
and, how can there be such a lacking of desire for justice --- I don't get it???

Not only is it a silly idea to try to make pals of criminals --- Clinton set himself up for the deal he got with Lewinsky. I wonder if he's ever thought of that?

Is such a naive Clinton really that believable. . . . ?
I have to say out front it looks like it --
but I'd keep an open mind for something deeper, more hidden.

When frightened people were intimidated into NOT looking honestly at the JFK case, we were put on this road to fascism. When Clinton permitted the CIA analyst's politicization to continue under Woolsey, he was strengthening --- instead of outsting --- a system which aided Cheney in pulling off the tale of WMD, etal which led us to Iraq.

This is stupidity run amuck -- and fatal for America.


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #74
95. Check into Jackson Stephens and Harriman's interest in Clinton's development
and you might not like what you can't help but see.
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
7. Either you believe that AIPAC has a big influence over american
policy or you don't. Which one makes more sense in light of our actual foreign policy & actions in the ME?
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. That's like asking, "Who should I believe,
AIPAC's supporters and apologists or my own lying eyes?"


A Little Hill Near Bethlehem Reveals the Power of the Israel Lobby

SNIP

The story is told in an important new book on Israel's illegal settlements, lately published by Nation Books: Lords of the Land, by Idith Zertal, a historian, and Akiva Eldar, the Haaretz columnist.

In 1997 the Netanyahu government resolved to build Har Homa, under pressure from the right wing, including Jerusalem mayor Ehud Olmert, now the P.M., who was adamant about the need for the development's 6500 units, for Israeli Jews.

Yasir Arafat was enraged by the plans. Har Homa would serve to cut the southern West Bank off from East Jerusalem, and would violate the Oslo accords, which called on Israel not to establish any more "facts on the ground." Arafat said Har Homa was likely to detonate an "explosion" among Palestinians and he would respond to Har Homa with the unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state.

Lords of the Land says that the Clinton administration responded to the emergency with "lip service." On March 3, 1997, Arafat met with Clinton in a crisis meeting at the White House to discuss the planned settlement. Clinton told Arafat that Netanyahu's coalition partners must be taken into account; his government depended on far-right parties. Arafat responded that one settlement could endanger the whole peace process--is that what Clinton wanted? Netanyahu's two predecessors, Rabin and Peres, had assured Arafat that nothing like this would happen under Oslo.

SNIP

Clinton did send a letter to Netanyahu asking him to postpone construction, the authors report. But Netanyahu blew that off. "I am building at Har Homa this week, and nothing is going to budge me from that."

Work began. Palestinians broke off negotiations under the interim accord. "The United States imposed a veto on a UN Security Council resolution condemning the settlements. America lost the last drop of its pretensions to being a fair mediator," Zertal and Elder write.

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2007/11/a-little-hill-n.html
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
75. Aren't they simply buying Congress as so many are doing --- ????
We have to pull our election system out of the money muck ---
We have to have publicly financed campaigns --- but citizens have to call the shots on
when, where, how much ---

Imagine candidates actually coming to our highschools --- to talk with people!!!
No scripts --

Imagine debates that would be real ---

Imagine the League of Women Voters back in the game ---

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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. Kicked to the greatest page. And note my suspicions of AIPAC connections at beginning of 2006!
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 11:52 AM by calipendence
... when there were some "spooky" Google alert emails sent and also potentially spooky spidering going on at the times of Larry Franklin's arrest that appeared at the time to have any blog space stories censored from Google about Sibel then.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=39220

And of course recently Brad Friedman's Blog also noticed some "censoring" of Google search hits when he first put up a story on Sibel's offer to tell all in the last week or so!

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
17. It's really getting to me that no one in the media is willing
to cover it now. I suppose it's a fear of intimidation of arrest?
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I think it's a question of access. If you remember when Bush took office,...
...it was made clear that anyone not playing ball with the administration would not be invited to certain functions, receive interviews, etc. from officials. Most of the media wound up climbing all over each other to provide whatever they could to get into the good graces of the administration, so they could continue to get interviews, especially.

  Quid pro quo.

PB
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Must be. I've been in contact with a major print media's
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 01:14 PM by mmonk
Washington correspondents as well as a CBS reporter and have been getting nothing. The only thing I have gotten is more reporters to send it to which always ends up nowhere. Our news media is pretty much shut down in a lot of areas. I am corresponding with an congressional aide but as of late, his communication is starting to falter (on his part). Dean is right, we have broken government, but we also have no fourth estate.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
67. That and those Defense Department contracts.
Gotta love the big money keeping the truth from the American people.

Hey, but what about that laugh of Hillary's? Oh, wait, Paris Hilton and Brittney Spears are going to do a video! Remember, the important stuff makes the "news" these days.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. Nominated.
I remember a few years back, that Laura Rozen noted the Franklin?AIPAC case was a "controlled burn." That is, sadly, a very accurate description.

This is a valuable review of the issues involved in the case. Thank you for providing this information to DUers.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Yep, very controlled.
One wonders how it can be so controlled.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yes, indeed.
This case is a good opportunity to illustrate this to many who are not aware 'how controlled.'
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. For those that think we live in an open society,
it would come as quite the shock.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. A Needed Shock
That's why this is a good time and a good case to illustrate this. The three branches have gotten away with illegal spying, detention & torture, Billions of $s in contract fraud, a war based on lies...only because the Fourth Branch, the US MSM, has acted as ENABLERS. It's time to expose them (not to those activists who already know, but those who still believe what they read/watch).
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. But that's the trick, isn't it?
Why should they believe activists when everything they believe is being challenged? It's a large challenge. Perhaps buying air time and ad space?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. It's a scandal
that not only involves people who are closely associated with the leadership of both parties, but it has roots going back more than a quarter of a century. In many ways, it is the sibling of Cheney's shadow government.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Excellent Point
This is why we won't get anywhere if we try to look at it the a 'party angle.' Agreed wholeheartedly:-)
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
50. Is it connected to the FDR coup?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. Hell, it's probly connected to the Lincoln assassination. (nt)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #50
89. If you read
the up-dated version of James Bamford's "A Pretext for War," it connects the Franklin?AIPAC espionage scandal to things that took place in the Reagan era.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. Thanks for the recommendation.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
20. K&R.
Thank you for all your work on this, lukery.
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FourScore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
24. What will happen to Sibel if she speaks out with the gag?
I hope they don't throw her in jail. I mean, if the media airs her story and stand behind her then maybe she has a chance. But what if they bury the story and send her to the slammer? I'm worried about her. Going up against AIPAC is pretty scary.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. The way I figure it, they can't jail her and attract that much attention.
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
59. So she disappears into the American Gulag
with maybe a small back-page, one-day story and no mention at all on the TeeVee news.

Think it can't happen that way? Or tht she can't just be labeled an Al Quaeda asset or something?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. No. I don't.
She founded the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition. It would be very difficult to disappear her now.

Here's a link

http://www.nswbc.org/
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Stalwart Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #59
91. Hire Blackwater to Protect Sibel
The sole objective of Blackwater is to protect the package by any means.

It would be bad for their business if they were to lose Sibel.

Business first. Blackwater could not even be bought off, who would ever hire Blackwater to protect them if they thought Blackwater could be bought off by anyone trying to get them. Its mafia rules.

Blackwater are just hired guns that shoot first. They would start shooting with overwhelming firepower at anybody that would even remotely violate Sibel's security by simply approaching her.

Good idea (?) but a deal with the devil that Sibel would not make.

We are her best protection.

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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. Let's not forget Brent Scowcroft, of both AIPAC and ATC helped "hire away" Carol Lam to Qualcomm!
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 01:44 PM by calipendence
... since he serves on their board of directors, before there was a chance for congress to get her "back" as a contractor (that Rahm Emanuel suggested) to follow up on the various cases she was investigating/prosecuting, which we now have Brent Wilkes looking at potentially 20 years in prison after his guilty verdict the other day, and Kontogiannis still working with the government secretly even after his conviction. We're still not even hearing half of what's going on in those cases I believe, and I'm sure a lot of those cross over into the AIPAC and other arms procurement scandals being discussed here.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Time for another kick!
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
64. Brent Scowcroft is Jewish?
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. Nope, nor is he Muslim (the ATC supposedly "represents" Turkey)...
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 10:13 PM by calipendence
But he IS a part of the military industrial complex that coopts these groups for their own agenda with a lot of folks like him right in the middle of them! You know, the folks that Eisenhower was warning us about?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #68
87. So this big Jewish/Israeli plot is run by a Christian?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
37. K&R, this post needs to be rated up!

The Sibel Edmonds case and corruption surrounding AIPAC and the ATC point to much deeper corruption behind the entire war on terror. Exposing this completely could permanantly destroy neocon influence in Washington and bring public opinion around to full support behind ousting Cheney and his war mongers from office. We are fighting against all the money generated by the military-industrial-oil complex and related war profiteers in exposing this, but the truth will out eventually. The sooner this is exposed, and the sooner the untarnished members of Congress (are there any left?) get behind this, then the sooner we can work on mending US reputation around the world.
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cbears34 Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
39. The Tipping Point
Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I've started to think it may actually be near. When it does, among other things, its going to very interesting to watch organizational developments at senior levels in our Main Stream Media.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. W're all watching...
very interesting, indeed.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
41. But what does the prosecution have to lose here?
If, in fact, AIPAC is paying for Rosen and Weissman's defense, then they are certainly not going to want the prosecution to take depositions of Rice and Wolfowitz and go into all of their dealings. Right?

Does AIPAC really want Rice and Wolfowitz going into all of their communications publicly? Or are they trying to claim that it is simply "lobbying" -- as opposed to spying -- along the lines of this?
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Can't read all the article but
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 02:29 PM by mmonk
they would claim innocent lobbying I'm sure. The problem is that while a reporter might publish a leak they were given (by design by someone in government that wanted the information known), a lobbyist would have a much harder case as why in the world someone would give secret and classified information to someone who is just a lobbyist? I think it's by design giving information to members of this group as well but many semi-legit groups operate with spies whose government an official wants information for them to have.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Then again, don't lobbyists lobby Congress? Who would lobby Rice or Wolfowitz?
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Not at all
What they want: Force the prosecution to drop charges by: 1- Subpoenaing these people (if they don't appear, or, cite national security/classification, then, the charges, since these are criminal charges, have to be dropped; 2- Demanding documents that are classified, forcing the government to invoke the State Secrets Privilege,...

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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. As I understand it from Ann Beeson of the ACLU, state secrets priv is hard to use in criminal cases.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 06:22 PM by calipendence
And that is more used in civil cases where there isn't other sets of laws that are viewed as more applicable that justices need to defer to in criminal cases. I recall her saying that along with that speech she gave in the preview of Supreme Court justice cases before Sibel Edmonds' appeal was "not heard" by the Supremes. Please correct me if I didn't hear her correctly.

So they may need to try and do the "gray mail" type of defense that was tried with Libby's case. I think that's why Reggie Walton didn't let them use State Secrets in that situation, since he was pretty experienced when he facilitated it being used for Sibel's cases earlier.

It will be interesting to see what they do here if they have to use something besides State Secrets Privilege...
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Exactly
You are absolutely right. If they invoke it in a criminal case, the government has to drop all charges.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. That's why we need to get all of these bums under CRIMINAL indictments or impeachments!
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 08:28 PM by calipendence
so that state secrets can't be their "blanket" get out of jail free card, and the more we get in the web, the harder it will be for them to untangle!
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
63. Thanks for that link. I have never heard this lobbyist stuff before.
Justice? Stories like this really tug on my optimism. And I was just thinking we were making progress.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
66. Interesting! n/t
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
45. I hope you're taking special care Ms. Edmonds
These people are ruthless and many of us fear for your safety. One can only assume not a single media source approached you with a willingness to broadcast your story. I'm wondering if Seymour Hersh has knowledge of your offer to go public...he's one of the few willing to report the truth and expose the Pentagon Papers. Perhaps you should contact either he or Daniel Ellsburg and ask for their help.
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
46. Is she saying that these things have been known about since...
1996? If so, who was asleep at the presidential wheel then to not look into these major cases? Her case will never be heard in full, its just like impeaching Bush, if you open THAT can, you will have too many worms from both sides of the aisle exposed. It amazes me how many people that really believe that only one party has a ton of corrupted officials and the other party is perfect and standing up for the people.
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StateSecrets Donating Member (394 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Our Right to Know
...it's all about our right to know.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. If I remember correctly....
Hillary's on Ms. Edmonds list.
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. I believe you've just explained why the Dems will never impeach Bush**/Cheney
Too much of the dirt they'd uncover would be their own.

Our government is rotten to the core across the board. It'd be easier to count the people who aren't tainted.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #46
76. BOTH sides of the aisle have to be investigated. The longer you leave these criminal
activities alone, the bigger the problems in future.

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whyzayker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
48. Lukery..Michael Ansari?
Has the name popped up in any of your research? He's the Chairman, President, and Chief Executive Officer of M.I.C. Industries. I was told he's another leg of the octopus so to speak. The M.I.C. Board of Advisors includes William S. Cohen, Richard L. Armitage, General Anthony C. Zinni and General H. Hugh Shelton amongst others.

M.I.C. is alleged to have had a genuine interest in an invasion/attack of Iran some years ago.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #48
77. Similarities to the Civil War giving great financial gain to a few in South $$$$ ---
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 12:11 AM by defendandprotect
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lukery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #48
82. yep - Ansari
comes up in these cases. Nice catch. From memory, Cohen bought his mansion from Ansari the week after Cohen left govt (or something like that)
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
52. Kicked, recommended and bookmarked!
:kick:
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Venus Dog Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
55. Will be interesting to see how this plays out now that Mukasey is in at Justice
Kick and bookmark for future reference. Thanks for the thread :patriot:
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
61. All I have to say is . . .
WOW.

An amazing post.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
65. Keep up the good work, Lukery!
Someday I hope ALL of this sees the light of day.

K & R

:kick::kick::kick:
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #65
80. I agree THANK YOU Lurkery!!!
:hi:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
69. If we all print out copies of this OP, and make the links into footnotes..
and send copies to Waxman and others who might just know more about this than they're admitting,.. It might dawn on them how much information is already in the public realm.

We could embarrass the media into a bit more attention if, say, NBC gets many copies of this..
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Waxman is curious.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 10:41 PM by mmonk
Who got to him? Was he lying from the beginning? If he was, then why listen to Sibel in SCIF with his staff and promise hearings when they would come to power and then renege? Who's behind shutting the door on oversight?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #70
78. Both Waxman and Conyers should be on "GO" . . . is it the DLC???
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #78
86. Could be. Could be about a prominent member.
Overlapping connections to it all maybe. I'd really like to know.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #86
96. As widespread as knowledge of Sibel Edmonds is here -- I don't think general public
are any where near as aware ---

MSM certainly aren't remind them ---!!

I think from what Sibel said that her info is on record somewhere --- 9/11 or Waxman ---
just not acknowledged, I take it???

So much of our govenrment and media has been corrupted that we almost need a shadow government to straighten things out!!!


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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #96
97. He acknowledged it when he was in the minority.
No, the public in generla does not know but prominent people do (and willingly keep it quiet). The Whistleblowers know about it and try and keep it public (and do through speeches and venues).
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
71. If it's not too late to edit you might want to change the word learnt to learned in paragraph 3.
Edited on Fri Nov-09-07 10:51 PM by lonestarnot
Nevermind I see it is too late. And may I make a suggestion. Well you know I'm going to anyway... snort... When you use acronyms, not everyone knows what you are talking about unless you say it at least once some place in your post. Sometimes acronyms make my brain hurt. This is an important post. Thanks for sharing! Waiting and watching.
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
72. You go, Luke.
Good stuff.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-09-07 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
73. K & R
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
79. Thought I knew a bit about Edmonds and Plame . . . but AIPAC I'm way behind on . . .
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 12:24 AM by defendandprotect
and these investigations and the inter-connections to Iran/Contral, etc.

The Drug War is obviously fraud --- but the idea that officials are involved in protecting it
and that there are profits to them and that it's corrupting our police enforcement -- banks, etc.
I don't think is that clear to the public.

Of course, this can't be going on without corruption of government, police, banks -- intelligence --whatever!!!

I was looking back to when Israel became a nuclear power and how . . .
What does seem to be clear is that Nixon armed a right-wing fundamentalist Israel --
and that introducing the MIIC in Israel and intertwining it with America's weapons production
gave us an entirely different Israel --- peace-loving Israel out the window.

As far as I can see, we've armed Israel as an imperialist power now in the ME to do the dirty work
we weren't able to do openly --- until recently.

Bush was trying to encourage attacks on Lebanan and Syria ---

Iran/Contra was so blatantly teasonous that I couldn't understand how Ollie North became an American hero!!??? And why so many people were willing to shut off the idea of that treason -- drug running --- and corruption of our own government.

This is all just more of the same, isn't it --- ???

PS: Who is this Judge T. S. Ellis, III
Any relation to the Bush Ellis cousin?






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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #79
83. I've seen reports that...

the worldwide drug trade is on par with the oil trade, and that $100s billions flow into Wall Street. If this is anywhere close to being true then it would explain a lot, and might explain what we are up against.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. It's been going on a long time . . .
We certainly weren't people linked to any big deal networks, but I can tell you that the minute they killed JFK everything changed.
Economic deals the average person knew shouldn't be happening were happening.
We heard that, "yeah, they could put someone with Mafia connections in the White House."
LBJ certainly qualified for that --- as well as Nixon's past connections.
We heard that they would come into the banks and make offers ---
if they weren't go to get them now, they'd get them soon.

The most violent and ignorant among us have come to power -- !!!


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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
85. k&r
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
88. "if you knew what we knew"
Or more likely "if it was known" then trying to tear the weeds from the wheat would take everything down.
Of course we have dutiful, sometimes truly gullible, top Democrats who will nobly go about their duties.
The furthest Dems have ever gone perhaps is with Sen. Church on the last JFK assassination commission. I think they were starting out worse than are now, with people like Edmonds simmering the truth under an absurdly obviously suppression. The whole economy, whole myth and system of government was and is even more threatened, blackmailed by the snakes. The Dems who blanched before simply taking it all down- in their place what would you have done, without retrospect?- tried unwisely and not too well to just get in and gently fix things, compromise, heal and loosen the threatening bonds. Kerry took down BCCI. Clinton started entwining peaceful and prosperous results into the dismal strangulation. Fall short. Hands off. Delicately.

Even now, when by their own overreaching unsustainable madness, these treacherous people seek to add and ride the beast of several unavoidable crises, the concern is more for the whole than the satans implanted at all critical junctions. Even if it all were to happen in a year, the dissolution of this particular civilization, unimaginable breakdown and loss, they might justify to themselves that they had done the right thing. It is like dismantling a mega nuclear bomb under Yellowstone. It is easier not to even try and just go about "normal" life, as long as it lasts, and begin to believe the comforts of denial aided by whatever blissful ignorance remains.

The character of Dems in these cases has been very very consistent, from Sen. Fullbright refusing to get involved in the Pentagon Papers(retreating behind the law that had been abused into an evil joke) to Senator Kerry boldly taking on BCCI despite Lord knows how many obstacles and not seeing while accepting the blinders, accepting the "closure". We get so far in this dualistic hidden sparring, mutually needing the system to survive, and then the jig is up for everyone. By then, the champions of measured response and denial and the villains of exploitation and rule control, are equally incompetent to handle reality.

Most people don't know, but given the late stage of everything, the dissemination of information "too dangerous" for us to know, it probably would take about ten minutes to present to all the peoples of the world who with calm rage and determination would all favor it be addressed. By then, of course all the frantic triggers would be pulled, while all the lesser perhaps decent system managers would be occupied in trying to spin the people away from their resolve. The price of "in our best interests" has escalated close to human extinction already. Dems were not prepared to open the windows then and the ones in the highest positions are not now.

It seems if things are going to go very bad, we are supposed to pretend we don't know why, with ignorance being the measure of success until the last domino falls.
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Stalwart Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
90. Truth, Lies and Myths
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived, and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive, and realistic."

-- John F. Kennedy (35th U.S. president, 1917-1963)

Sibel has the truth.

Her opponents have the myths, that is all they have to fight the truth.

Fear is a powerful thing. The myth makers are very scared. When they cannot perpetuate myth with more myth then they have to have raw power to simply crush the truth.

Truth is power in itself. Myth needs increasingly unreasonable dominating power in the hands of the myth makers as it starts to fail.

Myth is failing, look out for the use of unreasonable power to defend it against the truth.

Myth has to immediately attack the smallest truth with maximum total power.

Sibel has big truth.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
92. Here's a good video about Sibel on YouTube
Edited on Sat Nov-10-07 11:10 AM by George Oilwellian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Jn4vTGb_8

I'll post it in the political videos section as well.

On Edit: Hmm, just tried posting it and it says it already was...although it's not showing as linked on the YouTube page.
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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #92
98. What's also funny is that I wrote a comment at youtube after viewing
the video. Instead of posting it right away, it said it's pending approval. I wrote another comment questioning why it's pending approval when any other video I've commented on is posted right away. It's only been a few minutes, but neither comment has been posted yet.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-10-07 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
94. Kick n/t
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-11-07 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
99. Sibel Edmonds and other Whistleblowers Group
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