Ok, time for some hard reasoning (re impeachment)

[Az]

Yesterday was a tough day for me. I am still angry about what happened. But as I value reason I have to force myself to put aside my emotions on the matter and think about what is going on.

What do we wish to accomplish? Do we want the bums out of office? Or do we just want to put an asterisk next to their names in the history books? This seems to be the issue that the Dem leadership is contending with.

Simply put there does not appear to be a way to remove Dick Cheney or George Bush via impeachment. We need a 2/3s majority to convict and remove them. This is not going to happen with the Repugs holding the number of seats they do. And they are not going to line up to kick a sitting repug president out no matter how much they want to distance themselves from him. The political hay to be made for them is to embarrass the Dems by denying them any political success. Handing us a conviction on a repug president will not give them anything they want.

So yes, we can place an asterisk next to Cheney's name. But the time and political effort it will cost is exorbitant. Add to this the fact that it is a motion that is doomed to fail and the repugs will make much of that failure. Add further that it will be easy to spin that its just revenge for Bill's impeachment. It does much to hand issues to the repugs in an election cycle.

Yes, there is merit in putting that asterisk next to their names to stand up for the Constitution and the laws of this land. But it may be a Pyrrhic victory not worth the cost of achieving. At least that may be what the Dem leadership is thinking.

So it boils down to that. Do you think the political cost of placing an asterisk next to George and Dick's name is worth it?

[wtmusic]

1. It's about reinstating the rule of law

and has nothing to do with how history views the criminals. They are already asterisks.

[Marrah_G]

2. I think that yesterday was the best of intentions

gone horribly wrong.

Dennis was doing what he felt was right but he did it alone. Yesterdays votes will be used to smash the Dems over the head repeatedly and the end result is we again look weak.

In my gut I know they will not be impeached. My heart wants them to be, but I know deep down they won't be.

And it sucks.

[Atman]

17. Explain why and how you think so.

Republicans smash the Dems over the head repeatedly simply for waking up in the morning, haven't you figured that out yet?

I'm done playing nice for fear of being called names by a bunch of clueless, lying, stealing, homophobic warmongers.

It's time to let the non-internet users of America see what the rest of us already know about Cheney.

.

[lonestarnot]

3. I support the gd piece of ratty paper!

[Az]

6. As ratty pieces of paper go its one of the best

But from a sitting Dems point of view which is more important? Making an idealistic stance that will appear to be little more than posturing? Or acting on legislature that makes a real difference? I tend to side with idealism myself. But I have to consider the environment the representatives find themselves in.

[fasttense]

4. Hell, the Democrats are not getting anything passed anyway.

Most of the legislation that has passed has been to support the war and its ever expanding costs. Not much else is getting through the veto pen of the idiot in chief. Might as well work on Impeachment instead of sitting around passing legislation that is never signed.

[lonestarnot]

5. Put the pocket piece in their face!

[H2O Man]

7. I respectfully disagree.

I think that what happened yesterday was very much a positive step. I also think that if and when the House Judiciary Committee decides to put the case together, that there is a very good chance that Cheney will be impeached by the House, and convicted by the Senate.

Impeachment is a process, and as it unfolds, the stances that people take will change. We saw a small example of that yesterday.

I am confident because of four reasons: (1) I know Cheney is guilty of crimes and abuses of power that meet the definition of "high crimes and misdemeanors"; (2) The evidence necessary to convict him is already on record; (3) I believe that when the evidence is fully presented, the majority of people in Congress will endorse the rule of law; and (4) I believe in the Power of Ideas.

[Az]

10. This is a very good possibility

Throwing the issue into committee allows for an investigation to begin. It may be that the crimes are so clear that the repugs will have no choice but to vote to convict. It may be that their attempt to force the issue on us will backfire. But again it calls for something we have not seen in some time and that is the Dems uniting and standing up for something. It is my hope that this is the path events take.

[H2O Man]

13. The investigation

is complete. Rep Henry Waxman has all the documents needed to convict Cheney. There is not a need to issue a single subpoena.

There are issues that have been identified as violations of criminal law, and abuses of power, that Cheney can be impeached and convicted on. The call for more investigations fails to identify what needs to be investigated.

For impeachment to fail, it would require elected officials to make the conscious decision to ignore the evidence of crimes and abuses of power. I can appreciate why people would think that is a possibility, even a probability. But that is distinct from calls for further investigations.

[Az]

16. Its really a question of how complicit the repugs are

I would like to think that there are some that stand by the rule of law. But how many? That is the question.

[VP505]

8. There is NO political

downside to standing up for the Constitution and rule of law by impeaching a VP with a 9% approval rating, especially when according to Gallup his boss, the Pres, has an 80% DISAPPROVAL rating, 50% of whom STRONGLY DISAPPROVE. That puts him in the "WORSE THAN" Nixon category. http://www.gallup.com/poll/102577/Half-Strongly-Disapprove-Bush-Job-Performance.aspx

[LibDemAlways]

9. Nothing could be more important than for the members of

Congress to fulfill their Constitutional duty by impeaching the bastards. Bush and Cheney are career criminals who've never been caught and punished, and they're committing their crimes in front of the police station, while the cops are purposefully looking the other way.

The Dems are apparently too afraid of their shadows to realize they would have solid public support if they would only make the case. This has nothing to do with repuke hatred of Bill Clinton and a desire to find something...anything....to use as a grounds for impeachment. Between lying the nation into war, outing a CIA agent, pissing on the rights of the American people, shredding the Constitution, using torture....there's an abundance of impeachable high crimes committed by the Bush cabal.

Not acting sets a dangerous precedent. It sends a signal to future Presidents that they can literally get away with murder. I, for one, want history to record that in the year 2007/2008 Congress got off its collective ass and did the job it was hired by the people to do.

[Az]

11. Well thanks to Dennis actions have begun

Where it leads could well speak to the heart of law and politics in this nation for some time to come.

[mdmc]

12. The right thing is ALWAYS worth doing

If Bush has done no wrong (no crime), then don't impeach.
If Bush has acted like a criminal, then impeach.
If we do the right thing and fail, we act honorably.
If we do the wrong thing and are successful, then we are rat worm democrats.

[DURHAM D]

14. My concern -

If a full investigation/impeachment is started Cheney will resign thus stopping a full inquiry.

Bush will pick a replacement who will automatically, as an incumbent, become the front runner for the W.H. in 2008.

The Repubs will look like they cleaned up a mess and did the right thing so their new VP will become our next President.


I believe this is why the House leadership does not want to impeach.

It is not because they are wimps - it is because they do not want another Repub in the W.H.

[VP505]

22. Cheney may

resign if a full investigation is started but I don't think it will stop the investigation because criminal charges could still be brought against him and Bu$h regardless if he is in office or not. The reason IMO, that the House Leadership doesn't want Cheney and Bu$h impeached is that they are beholding to the same corporate interests that don't want their gravy train cut off.

[bobthedrummer]

15. Volunteer skill sets and time to documenting the crimes of Richard B. Cheney

offer the results as citizen volunteers to the House Judiciary Committee and all elected officials 24/7.

All elected/appointed officials means local, state and federal-and insist on getting answers to why this information hasn't been acted on, this is an information society after all.

We want them out of office and prosecuted for what they have done and if found guilty, punished.

In other words, no one is above the law-and it is a crime to conceal crimes behind a national security classification system or fraudulently claim executive privilege or any other ruse.

Keep developing and broadcasting the information and volunteer it to all elected officials.
Network with others to take back our government and prosecute these criminals.

That's what citizens that exercise their rights in a representational constitutional elected democracy do-of course Richard B. Cheney and his Decider were not elected in the first place.

Keep the demand for removal and prosecution on 24/7-get on the captive MSM's case and network all this information that we already have accumulated since January 19, 2001.

Publicize and organize what is already available and demand priority to impeachment and prosecution.

That's in the open public domain-that's us.
Above all else never give up.

[Marnieworld]

18. I see it another way

It's about truth. It's about stating what has really happened, unequivocally, make a legal case about all of their crimes. Whether or not there is a conviction or removal isn't the point, though of course that would be nice. I think there is so much value in the process of gathering evidence and testimony about what they did to lie us into war and all of the other laws they have broken. If no one even states it formally, if there is no formal protest by Congress we have lost our democracy. They will have won their dictatorship. Call liars liars. Call criminals criminals. We should not whisper it, but shout it. Many in the world consider the rest of us complicit because we aren't acknowleging what has happened in our name. Also, they are doing the same thing again with Iran so perhaps it can stop that.

I would relish with joy hearings about all of the laws they have broken. The media would have to cover it, the American people could get the truth unfiltered. We can't re-establish the rule of law without pointing to its absence. The process regardless of the outcome would have extreme value- especially with challenging GOPers in future elections. Giuliani sounds exactly like them and without a strong opposition we'll have more of the same.

Unfortunately, I have no hope that any of this will happen. Once they went soft on torture with such a clear cut case of law breaking, after there was an impeachment over a blowjob, I have no hope that anything will stop the madness.

[PRETZEL]

19. I applaud Rep. Kucinich very much

this has been a long time coming.

What this does more (at least in my opinion) is puts the pressure on Rep. Conyers. There have been many issues that have come before the Judiciary Committee where he has been stonewalled in his investigation. My own personal opinion is that this is now put up or shut up for Rep. Conyers. If he lets this die in committee or is less than enthuastic in his investigation ultimately sends shock waves not only through his own credibility but also to the credibility of the entire Democratic Leadership. The administration cannot gain any political points by stonewalling an impeachment investigation and having their fellow Republicans defending it. If the questions are asked right and couched in the tone of "transparency" and "accountability" then popular support should remain. But to be perfectly honest the Dems cannot allow this to become a partisan issue. Their talking points must remain and united in the old Clinton Impeachment mantra used so effectively by the Republicans in that its a matter of the "Rule of Law". In as much as impeachment is a purely political process they have to do their level best to make this as much as a legal basis as possible.

I hope I'm like most people in that I'm much more concerned about whether or not we were told the truth and on what basis the administration made the decisions they made. I hope Rep. Conyers doesn't make this a referendum on the neo-conservative philosophy as opposed to the blatant abuse and misconduct committed by Cheney and Bush. I personally cannot believe in the neo-consevative philosophy but we cannot impeach a philosophy simply because we disagree with it.

[Blackhatjack]

20. I agree with H2O Man ... the investigation necessary to impeach Cheney has already been done

WE are not talking about 6 months of long drawn out hearings and everything grinding to a halt during that time leading up to the 2008 elections.

Now if Cheney decides not to resign, evidence will certainly surface from 'additional further investigations' that will need to be followed up on. I have come to the conclusion that Cheney will resign 'for health reasons' if we get to that point, rather than allow the full and damning case to be made against him.

In all likelihood Repubs will be very careful about criticizing Dems over Cheney given Cheney's very low public approval ratings in the single digits.

But remember there is a real benefit to opening impeachment proceedings against VP Cheney. It will focus attention on him and his motives for pushing an attack on Iran, and may save us from engaging in an attack on Iran in the lead up to the 2008 elections.

If the Senate were to remove Cheney or Cheney resigns, Bush can nominate a replacement VP but the Congress has to approve that individual to take Cheney's place. That approval process could be enlightening.

Are there risks taking the path to opening impeachment proceedings against Cheney? Sure.
Is it the right thing to do? Yes.
Once the people understand the evidence against Cheney, will they support impeachment? Yes.
Will it have an effect on the 2008 elections? Yes.

It is always the right time to protect the constitution and the rule of law.

[Old Codger]

21. Yes

Regardless of the end result it is the right thing to do.... If anyone is accused of a crime they should be put on trial. In this case it will not prove innocence or guilt (they are guilty beyond any reasonable doubt)But will show that we at least tried to do the right thing and at least show the rest of the world that we care enough about our own "rule of law" to follow it irrespective of what our leaders say or do. What we really need is a national recall law that allows the people to take matters into their own hands when our duly elected representatives fail their duty so miserably.

[leftofthedial]

23. yeah. the constitution IS pretty much just an asterisk

in this forsaken country nowadays.

[ClassWarrior]

24. Why are you angry? The Rape-Pubicans' hubris made them force...

...IMPEACHMENT into the national discourse. I think that's hysterical in the extreme.

We all knew it was going to take some catalyzing event for it to start happening. Apparently fate has a wicked sense of humor.

NGU.