Lets talk about Cuba

[MichaelHarris]

There are quite a few people in and around the Miami area that vote Republican because of it's hard-line stance on Cuba. Personally I feel the embargo's against Cuba have gone on long enough. Our attempts to starve a nation into submission is as out-dated as the Communism we fought to crush.

As Democrats I wonder how we can reach out to those voters who remember the revolution and the pain their family suffered. The best I could come up with is an open Cuba, a Cuba they could once again visit, a Cuba they can cherish once again. Why in the world would they want to continue to support a party that keeps their homeland closed to them. I would think an open Cuba would begin to heal the wounds.

I admit not knowing a lot about the suffering these people felt but I do have a great respect for open societies and I hope we can once again open Cuba to Americans both in travel and trade.

[Mika]

1. A majority of Cuban-Americans and their children are registered Dems.

Very slight majority.

For example, from 2004..

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/1905.html

The poll, commissioned by a Democratic group that is targeting Hispanic voters, shows Kerry with a 58-32 percent advantage among Cubans born in the United States, suggesting that the Massachusetts senator has an opportunity to siphon potentially critical support from Bush.

As the hard line Batistanos (supporters of the brutal regime of Cuban dictator Batista) die off so will the repug support, because a majority of their children and the more recent arrivals from Cuba vote Dem.


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[Mika]

2. But, there has been long term support for the Dem party from Cuban-Americans

Including significant support for Dems during the Bill Clinton era.

charts from opensecrets.org (The Center for Responsive Politics)

[Judi Lynn]

3. The Cuban society is totally open to all countries, and has been. It is the U.S. which has banned

travel, as you must recognize.

There are people from Canada and Europe who post, and have posted here who've been back and forth to Cuba many times who are glad to talk about it. They are not preconditioned to hate Cuba in those countries, and don't.

Maybe one will see your thread and comment personally.

[MichaelHarris]

5. I know

and I hope we can find away to end the US ban in my lifetime.

[Billy Burnett]

4. " ... and I hope we can once again open theirs." WTF?

Who the fuck is the US to say anything about any other nation's system of government?

The Cuban people MASSIVELY rejected and threw the US corporatocracy out of Cuba in 1959. They haven't forgotten that US interests turned Cuba into the whorehouse of the Caribbean.

Do Americans ever learn to mind their own business? God knows how fucked up things are in the USA.

Jeezuz. The absolute chutzpah!!

[MichaelHarris]

6. you

completely misunderstood me. I have no desire to change another nations government. We have no travel restrictions to Vietnam and we should have no restrictions on Cuba. You immediately thought I wanted to change Cuba, I don't. I want to change America. Valium?

[Billy Burnett]

10. You said...

As Democrats I wonder how we can reach out to those voters who remember the revolution and the pain their family suffered. The best I could come up with is an open Cuba, a Cuba they could once again visit, a Cuba they can cherish once again. Why in the world would they want to continue to support a party that keeps their homeland closed to them. I would think an open Cuba would begin to heal the wounds.

I admit not knowing a lot about the suffering these people felt but I do have a great respect for open societies and I hope we can once again open theirs.

You clearly stated that you hope that "we" can open their society. How is this to be misunderstood?

If you don't mean this, then you might want to edit your post.

[MichaelHarris]

15. and yet

you were the only one who saw it that way. Weird huh?

[Judi Lynn]

16. I saw it that way, too. I just didn't mention it. I'm not as brave as Billy Burnett!

I saw it instantly, and took it exactly as it was written, too.

[MichaelHarris]

18. I really

don't know what to say. I'll move on, you keep looking for ghosts. I'll go back to the Photography forum, you guys look for stuff to fight about, sheesh...

[Billy Burnett]

23. "... you keep looking for ghosts."

You changed your original post! Why? Was it the ghost you posted and removed?

While you complain of being "attacked" by others simply pointing out the arrogant USA_knows_what's_best position in your original post, you attack others with this "looking for ghosts" claim that you have since edited out of your original post.

Jeezuz. The chutzpah!

If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen!

[MichaelHarris]

29. why so hateful

Sorry I posted, why does the kitchen have to hot? Can't it be civil sometimes?

[The Inquisitive]

63. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

that's GD for you a lot of the time. It's best to ignore posters like that as they aren't interested in any sort of exchange of ideas and information but rather to establish themselves in the pecking order by nit picking on unimportant details. They'll dictate the terms of the argument and force you to defend a positition that has nothing to do with your original contention and then proceed to rip it apart. It's really a mindless excersize that allows the needlessly bitter and delusional to feed their desire to assert their themselves as intellectually supieror.

[Tyler Durden]

21. Me too.

Their society is open everywhere...except HERE.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

11. Only governments with the consent of the governed have any right to national sovereignty.

N.B. that "government with the consent of the governed" and "Democratic" are not the same thing - Castro would probably be elected again even in said democracy, so Cuba is not really an example of somewhere where beneficial foreign intervention is plausible. There are plenty of other places that are, though.

Isolationism, while preferable to imperialism, is no substitute for a decent altruistic foreign policy. "Minding ones own business" is not a justification for letting other people suffer without trying to help them.

[WinkyDink]

7. Didn't families suffer under Batista, and hence the revolution?

[MichaelHarris]

9. according to what I've read

yes, There was murder and toucher long before Castro.

[Judi Lynn]

13. Please direct us to any links on Castro murder and torture.

Bastista had the dissidents in Cuba murdered and tortured in great numbers, throwing their bodies out of cars, hanging them from light poles and trees to leave a message with the Cuban people. Many of the dissidents connected to Fidel Castro and his associates were tortured, some to death, and many murdered.

I'm sure you'd like to post some information you have on what has happened after the revolution of a similar nature.

[Judi Lynn]

14. Here's a thumbnail history of Batista, to refreshen your memory on Cuba prior to the revolution.

This was the Golden Age beloved by the first wave of Cuban "exiles" to Florida, who took off to avoid retribution by the Cuban people. They were the very big fish in a little pond there:

FULGENCIO BATISTA
President of Cuba

Cuban Army Sergeant Fulgencio Batista first seized power in a 1932 coup. He was President
Roosevelt's handpicked dictator to counteract leftists who had overthrown strongman Cerardo
Machado. Batista ruled or several years, then left for Miami, returning in 1952 just in time for
another coup, against elected president Carlos Prio Socorras. His new regime was quickly
recognized by President Eisenhower. Under Batista, U.S. interests flourished and little was said
about democracy. With the loyal support of Batista, Mafioso boss Meyer Lansky developed
Havana into an international drug port. Cabinet offices were bought and sold and military officials
made huge sums on smuggling and vice rackets. Havana became a fashionable hot spot where
America's rich and famous drank and gambled with mobsters. As the gap between the rich and
poor grew wider, the poor grew impatient. In 1953, Fidel Castro led an armed group of rebels in a
failed uprising on the Moncada army barracks. Castro temporarily fled the country and Batista
struck back with a vengeance. Freedom of speech was curtailed and subversive teachers, lawyers
and public officials were fired from their jobs. Death squads tortured and killed thousands of
"communists". Batista was assisted in his crackdown by Lansky and other members of organized
crime who believed Castro would jeopardize their gambling and drug trade. Despite this, Batista
remained a friend to Eisenhower and the US until he was finally overthrown by Castro in 1959.
(snip/)

http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/dictators.htm#batista

[MichaelHarris]

17. I'm fully aware of

Batista, you sound as if you're attacking me. Have I mentioned anywhere I have first hand information on Castro and evil deeds? I'm not attacking Castro, I only know one person who fled the country. He was a fat cat rich guy who probably raped and pillaged the country before he left. He used to walk around like some mafia guy.

I'm not attacking Castro or his politics, if anything I'm attacking the US government for continuing a senseless embargo. Emotions get the best of us sometimes and we fail to read everything.

[Mika]

20. Good for you.

You make a very valid point regarding your position on the embargo.

And, yes, emotions do get the best of us sometimes and we fail to read everything. That might include you too.

You honestly admit that you don't know much about Cuba. :thumbsup:

If you want to discuss Cuba, then you must be ready to debate. Have a position based on accurate information, or be ready to have your assumptions challenged. Challenging your opinions and assumptions by presenting opposing facts and points of view is not attacking you.

In your original post (before your edit) you did mention that you hope that we open Cuba's society up. You have editied your original post to modify your statement. Good for you.

Don't get discouraged and disappear to a distant forum. Please join those of us who read and post in the "Cuba threads" that often appear in the LBN, GD Politics, Eds and other articles, and Latin America forums.


:hi:



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[Billy Burnett]

24. Mika, he changed his post ...

... and complains of being attacked for the original content being misunderstood. Then MH changes the original post and then complains that he's being unfairly attacked, as if the original post content never existed (that I cut and pasted, in post #10 from his original post).

Duplicious and dishonest whining, in my opinion.

:hi:

[MichaelHarris]

27. What the fuck

makes you think I wanted a debate? I asked for a discussion to help me learn more.

[Mika]

32. Maybe. But you came to the table with inflammatory presumptions.

A few pointed it out to you in a way that you didn't like.

Stick to it. You can't be thin-skinned when seeking discussion on Cuba, especially when you post inflammatory rhetoric (as well as mewling about being "attacked" after removing the inflammatory part from your original post).


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[Judi Lynn]

33. Erasing combative words as soon as people take exception to them is a slippery way of doing business

isn't it?

Posters usually find it works out better for everyone concerned if they don't attempt to pretend it didn't happen by removing the evidence after people have called it out of line. The honest way is to either learn some self-discipline, and post only what you intend to support, right?

Where would this place have gone if we all did bidness like that!

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MichaelHarris]

34. never mind

really, I made absolutely no inflammatory rhetoric, you guys are just pissing for a fight around every corner. Sometimes the people who frequent GD are the laughing-stock of DU for just this reason. Every post has to be a fight? Is the kitchen always hot? No, I'm not thin skinned at all, I'm still here ain't I? Seriously find someone else to fight with, I'm done with you. I'm done with the lot of you.

[MichaelHarris]

28. Sheesh

some of you guys are hateful. Sorry I posted a thread to help me learn more.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

44. That was truly unexpected, wasn't it? Throws a bit of doubt about the true intentions

of the orginal post into the mix, doesn't it? Not quite the mild, wide-eyed innocence held forth as the original reaching out for information.

The guy should ask more questions of his Cuban gusano friends. They've never been at a loss for words before!

[Judi Lynn]

8. Americans should be active enough mentally to start asking themselves what it is our own government

doesn't want us to find out about Cuba that causes it to forbid our going there.

Very pushy for a "free" country.

[brazos121200]

12. That is a VERY good question for Americans to ask themselves.

[otherlander]

38. It's not to keep people from learning things.

It's just to get revenge.

[Judi Lynn]

40. Just to get revenge, is it? Your answer is so complex.

It's part of a struggle which goes back to the 1800's. You could use some time trying to find out even something about US-Cuba history.

On Christmas Eve, 1897, the Undersecretary of War, John C. Breckenridge wrote in his "Breckenridge Memorandum" on Cuba,

We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army.

http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/bmemo.htm

[otherlander]

42. Purposely making people

hungry and diseased? Yeah, that sounds like revenge to me. Revenge for having a government that we can't manipulate and weren't able to overthrow.

I think that having a travel ban on Cuba is an idiotic idea. But if it was lifted and we were all allowed to go there, I doubt that it would lead to Americans learning things about Cuba. All Americans are allowed to go to Mexico. But how much does your average American know about Mexico? Not much, I'd say. I've met people with doctorate degrees who didn't know anything about what was going on in Oaxaca. When Americans go to Mexico, it's typically to stay at a nice hotel and get drunk a lot.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Referring to the claims made against the Cuban government as being a "police state,"

and the related garbage circulated among the ignorant masses who have no way of either confirming or debunking the claims.

How do you think they've been able to sell the travel ban to the public this long, to the point almost everyone doesn't even test it, if it weren't for the boogeyman stories they've spun to keep the tension and hostilities high?

On edit:
Why would they bother spending BILLIONS of dollars over the decades on covert ops, and propaganda mills, and even Congressional payments of millions of dollars to "dissidents" in Cuba to destabilize their government if the right-wing here didn't intend to create such a hatred of Cuba that only an armed invasion or a violent coup, and placement of an American puppet "President" again, just like Batista would have to happen before they'd let ordinary Americans go back in again?

They have to completely destroy the current government before they will let Americans go back. That's why they have people working night and day in the State Department and in Florida, working on the post-Castro plan. They can't afford for Americans to see a SOCIALIST/COMMUNIST government which they have harrassed for decades actually works for its people, in spite of the ferocious hardship forced upon it.

As a former head of the American Interests Section, the American diplomat, Wayne S. Smith, said,

“Cuba seems to have the same effect on American administrations that the full moon once had on werewolves.”

http://www.nacla.org/art_display.php?art=2467&nacla_Session=6d438b2ab40c5ad94ecfbad5cddd15b2&nacla_Session=6d438b2ab40c5ad94ecfbad5cddd15b2

[otherlander]

51. If Americans wanted to see

a socialist government helping its people, they could go to Bolivia.

I know the government has spent billions of dollars on propaganda and black ops, and of course they're trying to bring down the Cuban government so they can install another puppet. The embargo/travel ban is just another tool of destruction. Seeing how little Americans know about the countries they are allowed to go to, though, I doubt that they're very worried about Americans suddenly educating themselves if the travel ban is lifted.

On edit:
British people can go to Cuba whenever they want to, can't they?

[Judi Lynn]

53. I'm not backing down. The United States has made a special, exceptional target of Cuba

since Eisenhower's Presidency, especially.

Cuba is in every conceivable way, a country with a wildly different relationship to the United States than is Bolivia, or any socialist nation.

There have been decades of terrorism against Cuba, involving our C.I.A. This has been testified to in court. There have been decades of operations against Cubans, against Cubans outside Cuba, against their crops, their farm animals, their hotels, restaurants, even diplomats from other countries who approve of the Cuban government, like Orlando Letelier, bombed to death, along with his American assistant, Ronnie Moffit, on the streets of Washington, D. C., in broad daylight. Like a Cuban U.N. ambassador murdered on the street in New York, etc., etc., etc. going into other countries to get them.

There is absolutely no comparison for the special hatred American right-wing a-holes have for Cuba as opposed to any other country anywhere on earth. They pour millions and millions of taxpayers' money into their low level warfare against the Cuban government annually. You would know this if you took the time to research.

[otherlander]

54. But I already knew that.

It's probably true that the right hates the Cuban government even more than it hates other socialist governments because Cuba openly calls itself Communist. The hatred you describe sounds like the most likely reason for the embargo/travel ban.

Since Canada doesn't have a travel ban on Cuba, shouldn't their media be able send journalists there to report on the actual state of things? And then wouldn't Americans be able to be able to find these things out by reading Canadian newspapers online?

[Mika]

59. There's plenty international media in Cuba reporting.

Good thing that DU is a good place to post and read some of these media reports.

Generally in these DU forums..

Latest Breaking News
Editorials & Other Articles
Latin America

:hi:

[otherlander]

62. Ok, good.

So then how is the travel ban keeping Americans from learning about Cuba?

[Judi Lynn]

64. Most people are totally unaware that Cubans have been coming and going from Cuba

for years before _Bush tightened the travel restrictions which apply to Cuban immigrants when he took office.

Most Americans have absolutely no idea that the same people they have been told are "fleeing" from Cuba have the option of coming by airplane, and that there are daily commercial flights from Cuba to Miami, to New York, and to Los Angeles, or were, anyway, before _{George Bush} took office.

There were rules set aside which allowed Cubans living in the States to visit Cuba, many of them travelled back and forth frequently.

I didn't have any idea this was possible, having swallowed all the propaganda myself, until it was slipped into an article I saw that the great uncle of Elián Gonzalez (the child found floating in the water off Florida, after his mother and her boyfriend drowned) had met Elián and his family in earlier days in Cuba when he went there on a fishing vacation, and his father gave up his own bedroom to the older man, Lázaro Gonzales, who then spent his entire vacation fishing during the day, and partying in the bars at night. This was a complete shock to me, as I had to wonder what were they "fleeing" from in Cuba if they would turn right around and go back on vacation?

I had simply bought all the lies I had been told, THAT'S how I know Americans don't have any idea what the truth is concerning Cuba.

Here's more information on travel back and forth to Cuba which Americans most surely don't know, taken from a book written by former New York Times journalist, Ann Louise Bardach, who made extensive trips to Cuba and back doing research on this book:

In Cuba, one used to be either a revolucionario or a contrarevolucionario, while those who decided to leave were gusanos (worms) or escoria (scum). In Miami, the rhetoric has also been harsh. Exiles who do not endorse a confrontational policy with Cuba, seeking instead a negotiated settlement, have often been excoriated as traidores (traitors) and sometimes espías (spies). Cubans, notably cultural stars, who visit Miami but choose to return to their homeland have been routinely denounced. One either defects or is repudiated.

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a nod to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriots who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero, or comrade), are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.

Page XVIII
Preface
Cuba Confidential
Love and Vengeance
In Miami and Havana

Copyright© 2002 by
Ann Louise Bardach

Explaining what it is Americans DON'T know and don't know that they don't know is far more complex, and time consuming that most people are able to spend, trying to explain it to you.

[Mika]

66. Because there's nothing like being on location when observing a subject of interest.

For instance, when I spent some time in Cuba I was able to observe an election season, including attending nomination sessions.
Something that I've found little in print about, except here..

Democracy in Cuba and the 1997-98 Elections
Arnold August
1999
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[mmonk]

19. He's a pretty good actor.....

oh, you mean the country.

[SidDithers]

22. He's a terrible actor...

"Snow Dogs"?!? C'mon.... :evilgrin:

:hi:

Sid

[SoCalDem]

25. Been there:)

I'm 1/2 Cuban :)

I was there as a baby, but my Cuban family fled in the 60's, so maybe before I die, I can go back and see it again..

There are probably records that show where they lived and where my grandfather's jewelry stores were..and where their farm and stables were :)

[MichaelHarris]

30. thank you

very much for such a nice post among the many hateful attacks :)

[aikoaiko]

26. Just waiting for Castro to die.

I'm sure we'll find "forgiveness in our hearts" after the old man dies.

[Judi Lynn]

31. Cuba is ALREADY open to Americans. It's the American right-wing loons in Congress,

and the violent, racist, reactionary right-wing original wave Cuban "exiles" in Miami, mostly, and their stooges in Congress who are keeping the American people from legally travelling there.

Jimmy Carter dropped many of the restrictions to Americans, allowing many, many more to start seeing Cuba, and then Ronald Reagan, at the urging of Jorge Mas Canosa, a CIA monster, the pudgy, vicious little godfather of Miami who slammed the door shut again, and every Republican since then has acted for his friends in Miami to pound a few more nails in the door to close it even more tightly.

Talk to Americans. The entire REST OF THE WORLD has no problems with Cubans and their government.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. Right, my church had to get a license to take a group to Cuba

on a good will mission to the Anglican Church there. (They've been twice before.) However, the Feds were quite hard-nosed about it. One member of our parish (a sometimes DUer) wanted to go with his father, but the Feds said that his father couldn't go because he wasn't an enrolled member of the church.

Also, my church tried to bring the Anglican bishop of Cuba to the U.S. for a couple of years. Cuba was willing to let him go, but the U.S. balked at letting him in.

I'd love to go and see Cuba for myself, because I assume that like most countries, it's not as bad as its detractors say nor as good as its fans say, so I want to form my own opinion. However, the trip isn't free, and I have to make other trips for work-related reasons. (For example, I'm typing this message from a hotel room in Tokyo.)

[MichaelHarris]

37. Lydia

I'm finding it impossible to have a discussion with the few people here about Cuba. Thank you for your post. I hope you fare better than I did with reasoning with the tight-asses that seem to make up GD.. I'm back to the Photography forum where people know how to be discuss without accusations. I'm not sure what I was accused of but I pissed someone off.

Peace,
Michael

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zippy890]

45. You are right, the embargo should end against Cuba

and we should be allowed to travel freely to Cuba. I would love to visit the national parks in Cuba which I've read are spectacularly pristine and beautiful.

I think many people misunderstood your post to mean something different than you probably intended. This has happened to me in GD.

Don't let them get to you - and post here again!
:hi:

[MichaelHarris]

49. Thanks zippy

that's all I wanted, is for the embargo to end so we can visit a beautiful country. :)

[Mika]

60. There was no misunderstanding. MH changed his original post after being called on it.

You can read MH's original contentious point (before he edited it) in post #10.

Here --> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2221951&mesg_id=2222350

He clearly stated that he thinks that "we" can "open up" Cuban society. Some posters pointed out that Cuba already is open to the whole world, and that it is the US gov that has closed off Americans from travel there, not Cuba.

To that point MH objected, stating that his post was misunderstood. He then changed it to conform to the complainants points. But, continues to insist that he was "misunderstood", despite the original content being edited afterwards.

I encouraged MH to stick to it, as have you, but he seems more interested in insults and confrontation with those who pointed out his original post's error.



-

[CGowen]

46. I recently watched a documentary on Bacardi and the embargo (it's unfortunately in German language)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8353588350872002119&q=bacardi+cuba&total=25&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[Judi Lynn]

47. Useful article for those of us who watch US/Cuban relations closely,

by a man who just may know about Cuba, U.S.'s own Wayne S. Smith:
Wayne S. Smith is now a Senior Fellow at the Center for International Policy and perhaps the most veteran U.S. observer of U.S.-Cuban relations, having been a Cuba analyst in the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research (1957-58), Third Secretary of Political Affairs in the American Embassy in Havana (1958-61), Cuban Desk Officer (1964-66), Director of Cuban Affairs in the Department of State (1977-79), and Chief of the U.S. Interests Section Havana, 1979-82

July 11, 2006

Embargoes, Blacklists and Assassination Plots
Bush's New Cuba Plan
By WAYNE S. SMITH

In May of 2004, the Bush Administration's Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba issued an almost 500-page report that seemed to conclude the Castro government was virtually at the point of collapse. Just a few more nudges--a few more Radio Marti broadcasts, denials of a few more travel licenses, and support to a few more dissidents--and it would all be over. The United States, the report seemed to suggest, would then come in and show the Cubans how to operate their schools properly, make their trains run on time, and grow their crops more efficiently. It was envisaged as such a U.S.-run operation that in July of 2005, a U.S. transition coordinator was appointed. One skeptical observer noted at the time that in the case of Iraq, the Bush Administration had at least waited until it invaded and occupied the country before appointing a transition coordinator. Did his appointment in this case mean the U.S. intended to invade Cuba as well? And if not, what was the U.S. transition coordinator supposed to do from his office in the State Department building? Even today, that remains unclear.

Perhaps OAS Secretary General Jose Miguel Insulza's reaction to the idea of a U.S. transition coordinator for Cuba summed it up best. "But there is no transition," he said, "and it isn't your country."

Indeed, the transition plan put forward in 2004 had such a "made-in-the-USA" tone to it that it backfired in Cuba. Even Cubans who had their disagreements with the Castro government did not want to be told by the United States how they should run their country. Leading dissidents described the new approach as counterproductive. Elizardo Sanchez of the Commission for Human Rights and National Reconciliation, for example, noted that the U.S. policy announced in 2004, "has had an effect exactly the opposite of the one you should want."

Cuba's Catholic Bishops also disagreed with the U.S. approach, saying its measures "threaten both the present and the future of our nation."

Nor did many Cubans agree with the idea that they should give up free health care and education, and various other services provided by the government.
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/smith07112006.html

[MichaelHarris]

48. because

you're so much smarter than the "rest of us"

[Mika]

50. Its only an article of interest for those who have a genuine curiosity about US/Cuba relations.

Why give such a nasty response?

Maybe you aren't really interested in learning about Cuba.

I responded in posts #'s 1 & 2 directly to your questions contained in your original post. (Before all of this nastiness.) I notice that you haven't remarked or commented on the info I put forth in answer to your questions.

Care to comment now?



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[MichaelHarris]

52. nope

I'll pass but thanks for offering

[Doctor Cynic]

55. It won't be good for Canadian tourism if Helms Burton falls...

I swear, every time the USS Nimitz docks where I'm from, all the sailors swamp the stores and take all the Cuban cigars. But it will be good for freedom overall, so it's better for the embargo to go.

[tomreedtoon]

56. My limited experience with Cuba...

...besides my dad, listening to Radio Havana on shortwave as he fell asleep in the evenings, is one of my co-workers. His family had a lot of territory in Cuba during the Batista regime. He talked about how, when Castro finally died, they would come to take back the land they had lost.

I suspect a lot of the old-line Cubans in Miami have exactly the same attitude. And frankly, it would never work out in reality. Other people have that land, and have had it for decades. They will never be able to wave a wand and make Cuba the vacation resort it used to be. It will take decades...and it will need the cooperation of the people living there right now.

The younger generation? I wouldn't know. But I'd guess they are far less passionate about the old country, like most immigrants.

By the way, by the time I moved out of the house and went to college, Radio Havana got kind of boring. They had a long, propaganda-filled show with North Vietnamese propaganda, and they cut back on the music and basic talk shows they did in English.

[Greyhound]

57. I always get such a kick out of these idiots and their bizarre notion

that somehow Fidel Castro pulled off the whole revolution single-handedly, and that once he dies, the entire nation will greet the greedy, arrogant, motherfuckers that they killed and died to rid themselves of, as liberators.

Castro's revolution happened because the Cuban ruling class were unconscionable pigs, backed up by US $$$ and weapons. So bad, in fact, that as bad as Castro has been, they prefer him to them.

Perhaps some future administration will finally admit that we have always been on the wrong side and that the Cuban people won the war.

[Mika]

58. FYI, Cuba is filled with vacation resorts, where millions vacation from around the world every year.

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It is Americans who are isolated by their own government from being able to do what millions do every year - visit Cuba to see it for themselves.

Google: Cuba vacations.


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[tomreedtoon]

67. I live in Florida. I don't need to go to Cuba.

It's a hot, sweaty place endangered by global warming, with stuff that costs too much and is lousy. (By which I specifically mean Sea World and Busch Gardens.) And I can get cussed out in Spanish (which I know enough of to know when I've been cussed out in it) without taking a plane.

Also, since I live in a tourist trap, I don't need to go to another one.

Sorry, but there is no reason for anyone to go to Cuba. Or to Florida, for that matter. No matter what Eleanor Roosevelt said back in the 30's, travel is not broadening. Meeting people in foreign lands only reminds us how much other people hate us. Go read a book, walk around your neighborhood or soak in a tub, it's a better cure for the soul.

[KharmaTrain]

61. A Brand New Culture

A media friend in Miami long ago pointed to the differences in the Cuban community. Some here have pointed out that the most rabid anti-Castro Cubans are Repugicans but that they represent an "Old Little Havana" that has long dominated Miami politics but is fading in numbers and real influence.

Most second generation Florida Cubans identify themselves as citizens of the U.S. and Americans. While they're sympathetic to their parents hatred of Castro, they have no point of reference. Most have never seen Cuba and, like many other Hispanics, meld into American society. They identify with "American culture", not Cuban. They don't see Castro as a threat, just a nusance.

It's also been pointed out here that there's been a surge among younger Cubans to register as Democrats. Even some former Repugnicans have shifted as the GOOP pretty much has neglected them over the past several years. The embargoes haven't brought Castro down and they see how its hurt not only the people of Cuba, but the loss of a potential neaby trading partner across the Florida straights.

Maybe someday soon we'll see this change. I'd love to visit Cuba now...just to experience what it's like in Castro's last days...then return in a couple years and see how its changed.

[Judi Lynn]

65. Interesting photo you're not likely to have seen!

November 8, 2007—On the Dutch island of Terschelling, beaches are often awash in treasures—like the bunches of Cuban bananas that floated ashore this week (top photo).

It was sneakers (bottom photo) and aluminum briefcases in February 2006. The shore was covered with sweaters before that.

The island was molded into its current shape by a violent storm in 1296, according to its official web site. Things have been washing ashore ever since.

This week's boon comes from six banana crates—originally from Cuba—that fell off a cargo ship during a recent storm.
(snip)

For the moment the island has more bananas than it can use.

"I think everybody on the island has a bunch now," Buren said.

Some locals had suggested sending the extra bananas to nearby zoos, he added.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/11/071108-bananas-picture.html