However this vote goes... a debate on impeachment will be good for politics.

[redqueen]

SO many people have given up... seeing how corrupt the system is, can you really blame them?

This attempt to hold someone accountable for ACTUAL crimes (as opposed to lies about blowjobs) may actually send the message to those who have given up that maybe there really is something worth working for... and inspire them to at least TRY (as Dennis has done) to make a change for the better.

Here's hoping...

:toast:

[sampsonblk]

1. Yes

Even though its apparent that a lot of elected Dems are cowards, there are enough couratgeous Dems to be able to get our points across in this hugely public forum.

Good job DK!

[TwilightGardener]

2. I don't think this is how an impeachment debate is supposed to go--

don't we need some legal eagles presenting evidence, and hearings, and stuff? What do we have besides the Resolution?

[NYC Liberal]

5. This is all that is needed: a resolution of impeachment.

[TwilightGardener]

8. Evidence? YOu can't impeach without evidence of high crimes and/or misdemeanors.

That would take a while to sort out, wouldn't it?

[redqueen]

11. They've been compiling it for years.

This really isn't such a mountain to climb as some seem to think.

[TwilightGardener]

15. Who is "they"? Sorry, I don't think Dennis really has a handle on this.

[redqueen]

18. They = Dennis and the few others who give a crap

about the many high crimes and misdemeanors.

Your lack of confidence in DK's preparedness is noted. :hi:

[robinlynne]

40. noted and repudiated.

[NYC Liberal]

16. You can impeach with 218 Yeas. A majority votes vote an

impeachment resolution that has been introduced, the person has been impeached and faces a Senate trial.

Because the Senate trial operates like....well, a trial....traditionally you would have hearings, etc. to gather all the evidence together. But it's not required.

[TwilightGardener]

20. Yes, but...why would a House member vote to impeach without

tons of evidence, even if it's not a formal trial like the Senate? Seems to me this would require tons of debate--didn't it happen that way with Clinton?

[NYC Liberal]

25. There's plenty of evidence, much of it already read into the record.

Just take the wiretapping, where Bush has already openly admitted to breaking the law.

We don't need to "find out" what Bush did, like with Nixon...we KNOW what he did. Because he admits it openly. It's just that he says it is NOT illegal when it is.

The debate is over the legality of what he did, not what he did or whether he did it.

[TwilightGardener]

32. What laws did Cheney specifically break? That has to be determined.

This is much more complicated than meets the eye.

[redqueen]

33. As much as you wish that were the case...

saying it over and over again just does not make it so.

Sorry! :hi:

[TwilightGardener]

44. OK. I'm just trying to inject a little caution here. I don't think this will end well, but I hope

you're right.

[NYC Liberal]

35. Well, for starters, the impeachment resolution has plenty in it:

http://kucinich.house.gov/UploadedFiles/int3.pdf

[robinlynne]

42. first the investigation starts. then it is presented. then they vote.

[tridim]

9. Then the trial begins, right?

[MuseRider]

29. TIVO in all liberal

households will be working overtime so that we don't miss a single bit of it. It will be so revealing. IMO there are so very many people ready for the perfect opportunity to speak about what they have seen. It will be television worth watching.

[redqueen]

6. So much these days is not going how it's supposed to go. Our govt is broken.

We have a list of high crimes and misdemeanors as long as your arm.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

3. It's pretty hard to stuff that genii back into that bottle.

:toast:

[H2O Man]

4. Nominated.

I love the smell of impeachment debates in the afternoon. Reminds me of democracy.

[EST]

7. Even this bit of breath-holding stagecraft is enough to get all

the gossips and wags, as well as us good citizens, to discussing it.
Once the topic proves viable, some flogging of the subject may get some rocks oventurned.

[lonestarnot]

58. Absolutely! Absolutely! Wag those tongues people!

[underpants]

10. I agree-the Republicans had better hope this is somehow ended before 5PM

if this gets into the news cycle overnight look out. A whole can of worms there.

[eugenedebbs]

12. What actual crimes?

Hopefully Dennis has a fully laid out accusation beyond just genaralities. If not, we will make Ken Starr look like Perry Mason. It is a high risk move.

[redqueen]

13. They lied us into a war.

There is scarcely a quintile of the population of even this disgustingly misinformed country that doesn't realize that fact by now.

Billions of dollars wasted.

Thousands of lives lost. Thousands more changed for the worse, for life.

All for a lie... a lie mostly about oil.

This is not a high risk move. Not at all. Not IMO.

[TwilightGardener]

14. You need evidence. Witnesses. Not opinions.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. Witnesses for the war?

You mean you haven't heard about it yet?

[redqueen]

21. That's in the Senate.

Hey, nobody's asking you to sign on... if you don't think it'll work... okay then!

:hi:

[paulk]

22. you think that case can be made in half an hour?

this was a foolish move by DK. Once this fails, and it will, impeachment will be truly off the table.

[redqueen]

27. It was ALWAYS off the table.

Are you honestly attempting to turn this around and blame DK for it being off the table?

:wow:

[paulk]

53. it was off the table unless one of the ongoing investigations

turned up something so egregious that impeachment was unavoidable for the Republican side. This attempt, by a Presidential candidate, smacks of partisan grandstanding and will be presented as such by the media.

Because that's what it is.

DK is a fool. A complete and utter fool who has now squandered any chance we may have had at a real impeachment.

IMHO.

[redqueen]

54. IMO the establishment Dems are the fools... DK is giving them a wake up call.

They are playing politics while they let the country slide into chaos.

[Nederland]

34. Lying is hard to prove

To prove a person lied you have to prove that what they said was false and they knew it to be false.

Proving that what they said was false is easy--the facts speak for themselves.

Proving that they knew it was untrue is much more difficult. Barring some sort of memo saying "I know Saddam doesn't have WMD but let's say he does so we can invade" you simply can't prove it.

[H2O Man]

45. Wrong.

Cheney said he knew for sure. He didn't. There is adequate evidence that shows that he misrepresented the truth.

[Nederland]

50. Congratulations

All you've proved is that when Cheney said he "knew for sure", he was wrong.

And new flash: Cheney being wrong about anything isn't news.

[H2O Man]

57. Nope.

All you've proven is that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[H2O Man]

43. "High crimes & misdemeanors"

includes crimes and abuses of power. Impeachment is a civil trial, not restricted to violations of criminal law.

[Az]

19. Not unless the Dems have had a spinal transplant

The fact that the Dems were voting to table this bill shows that they have not grown a spine and were looking to bury any contentious issues. The repugs have recognized that the Dems are paper tigers and have thrown the issue back in our face and told us fine... you got a debate. Not get ready to fight. There is no fight in the Dems. Least not that I have seen.

[redqueen]

24. That's one way to look at it...

or you could look at it as the mainstream dems tried (once again) to capitulate and 'keep the powder dry' but lost control of the helm... so who knows how this may pan out.

There's fight in some. Let's hope it's contagious.

[Az]

36. Keep the powder dry?

For what? This is it. This is the whites of their eyes time. And they are still sitting there worrying about their powder? This is bayonet time. Fire and stab.

Its as if Kuccinich yelled Charge and the Dems just stood around going "huh" and "whu". Only to have the Repugs shove them out on the field. Now they have no choice but to charge and they simply are still stunned and don't have a clue what to do.

[LSK]

23. my apathetic boss just said she would be watching it like she watched OJ

[redqueen]

28. That's exactly what I'm hoping for!

:bounce:

[derby378]

26. You know that Big Media will try to silence the debate pronto, right?

I agree with you, though - the more people talk about impeachment and the merits thereof, the better it is for people on our side of the aisle.

[harun]

30. They won't discuss it, they know it helps the Dem's (n/t)

[redqueen]

31. Don't really give a hoot what those whores do.

NOTHING would surprise me, in that regard.

[babylonsister]

37. It's been on CNN and MSNBC this p.m. That hasn't happened in

forever, so we're already ahead of the game!

[derby378]

46. Awesome!

Impeachment is crawling onto the table after all, like someone else here just mentioned. I love it.

[tridim]

38. Articles of impeachment were introduced today..

That isn't something that even our MSM can ignore. They might try, but it wont work.

[Stinky The Clown]

39. Wow! We agree

Yes, having this debate is a good thing.

That said, it is, so for, only a one hour debate at a time when, essentially, no one is watching apart from us wonks and polijunkies.

The debate we NEED to have in is the public square. Hopefull that will happen in the media, but we all know how **that** goes.

So that leaves it up to us ..... one on one with whomever we meet. My personal goal is to convince one person a day that we need to impeach. I have essentially gone out to the edge of my circle of acquaintances. I now talk to people in the grocery line or the gas station.

[Parche]

41. Why Do You Hate BJ's?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :hi:

[Marrah_G]

47. It's just being sent back to committee where they may or may not look at any of it

[redqueen]

48. See post 37

Conyers sits on this at his peril.

[Marrah_G]

49. I would but ummm

I can't see post # 37.

[redqueen]

51. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2219988&mesg_id=2220412

[Disturbed]

52. Is it better to try to do something than do nothing?

This will go nowhere but at least Kucinich tried his best.

[Marrah_G]

60. Yes he did

And I'm glad that someone had the guts to bring it up. I just don't think it's going to go anywhere and instead is going to be used to whack us over the head with. It sucks ....sigh.

[spanone]

55. correct your highness!

[ecstatic]

56. They better do at least one: Impeach or end Iraq war NOW

If they can't do one, they had better be figuring out how to do the other.

[AuntPatsy]

59. Here's hoping with you....

:toast: