Funny how some insist on using the term "illegal"

[cuke]

I've noticed there are some posters who insist that the term "illegal" is a legitimate term to call "undocumented aliens" yet for some reason they can't explain why breaking the immigration laws is the only way to earn the sobriquet of "illegal" while murderers are considered "legals"

Can anyone explain this?

[Cronus Protagonist]

1. "They have brown skin and are of lesser value as people"

Not my interpretation, personally, but you asked for an explanation and that's what I think it is to be a racist. I know people think differently about white immigrants from Europe and Canada; they're just "trying to get a green card".

:P

[durrrty libby]

2. the repukes have invaded?

[Didereaux]

3. fairly easy, actually...

'Illegals' as it purtains to people is a shortened form of 'illegal immigrant': Which is perfectly acceptable as there are two stes of being - a leagl immigrant or an illegal immigrant.

Now had you thought about it a bit you would realize it is illogical to say illegal murderer and legal murderer because there is not such thing in either case, they are both oxymorons. Quit being so fucking hyper over terminology until you grasp the language. That is NOT an attack, that is sound advice, it will avoid lots of annoyance for you if you spend some time understanding the language and its useage. What little bit I have mastered helps a great deal when I find myself asking such questions as you have. A dictionary, a thesaurus and a little thought usually clarifies the issue.

..but then again popular useage and slang slays the best of them at times (grin)

[cuke]

4. Nope,

You're "begging the question" by assuming it started with "illegal immigrant".

Nice try, but the next time you want to give lexicological advice, I suggest you learn a bit about the subject

[LittleClarkie]

6. You have to admit that illegal murder is rather redundant

to say the least. And it is possible to be an immigrant, even a brown one, without being illegal.

[cuke]

8. Nope

Many of the people who are called "illegals" aren't even immigrants, so I still don't get the explanation. It makes no sense.

[Matariki]

17. Huh? You yourself mentioned '"undocumented aliens" breaking the immigration laws' in your OP

So what doesn't make sense to you?

[cuke]

22. Why people who break immigration laws are "illegals"

while people who break other laws are not "illegals"

[Matariki]

26. Then what did you mean by "Many of the people who are called "illegals" aren't even immigrants"?

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. The person who pointed out that saying 'illegal murderer' is redundant, while an illegal alien isn't because there are also legal aliens gave you a sensible answer it seemed. Doesn't it answer your question or do you just disagree?

[cuke]

31. What I meant

Some are saying that "illegal" is a shortening of the term "illegal immigrant". However, that term is not applicable to these people, nor was the term "illegal immigrant" used officially. The correct term is "undocumented alien" or "undocument resident" depending on their living arrangements. And please note that "undocumented" does not mean "illegal"

So how (and where) did the term "illegal immigrant" come from? My unstated (until now) premise is that it is an invention of the right wing and that there is no reasonable basis for using the term aside from it's ability to express an emotional reaction to the immigration problem

[Matariki]

37. okay. undocumented. fair enough.

You would agree that there are people here illegally as well wouldn't you? People who came into the country without the proper paperwork or whose visas have expired or whatnot. I'd assume that someone who was undocumented could very well also be here illegally.

And yeah, I'd agree that the right wing is fanning the flames of the 'immigration debate' for political reasons. It's an emotional issue, and they LOVE to appeal to emotions rather than reason.

[cuke]

38. Of course

Some people are here illegally, but breaking the law has never been used to declare a person "illegal". Unless they have darker skin

[Matariki]

40. I get what you're saying now.

The use of language to marginalize PEOPLE is both subtle and pervasive. It's one of my pet peeves also.

[cuke]

42. Yes, now you do

and thank you

[Canuckistanian]

61. Wouldn't you have to be convicted to be considered "illegal"?

As with any other criminal, news services should use the term "alleged illegal immigrant" until the verdict is reached.

[LittleClarkie]

20. I don't get where you're coming from. Who's called illegal

who isn't an immigrant?

An illegal US citizen? What the hey.

[cuke]

Migrant workers

which is the original term

[mondo joe]

28. Okay. Illegal Migrants.

[cuke]

29. Nope

That phrase in not used

[mondo joe]

30. Is now.

[cuke]

32. Nope

not used, but keep making stuff up

It just shows the lengths some will go to remain in denial

[mondo joe]

33. I don't know why you are so invested in denying that people are illegally entering

the country. Migrant or immigrant, their presence is illegal.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Didereaux]

7. no assumption at all...do your homework! n/t(no I am NOT going to do it for you)

[cuke]

9. You haven't done it for yourself

Most of those people aren't even immigrants. Try reading a little before responding. It might help your comprehension

From dictionary.com

im·mi·grant /ˈɪmɪgrənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.
2. an organism found in a new habitat.
–adjective 3. of or pertaining to immigrants and immigration: a department for immigrant affairs.

[Quantess]

25. What is your definition supposed to tell us?

We libs can be pretty dense so you need to explain it to us. Are you saying these people, "most of whom aren't even immigrants" are organisms found in a new habitat?

[cuke]

27. No, I'm saying many are not immigrants

I'm pretty sure I said that pretty clearly

[Matariki]

34. Actually you aren't being very clear and it seems to be causing confusion.

Are you saying 'undocumented aliens' are NOT immigrants? You started this thread by mentioning undocumented aliens and immigration laws.

[cuke]

36. I'm saying

that not ALL undocumented aliens are immigrants. Yet, we call them "illegal immigrants" or "illegals" for short.

Sounds like some prejudice at work there

[Quantess]

39. I'm trying to figure out who "they" is. They are not immigrants, but they ARE illegal.

Is that right?

Just one thing, if they aren't immigrants at all, and have been in the USA for many generations, and they happen to do some illegal things (you mentioned murder) then wouldn't they just be US citizens about to be locked up in prison?

So really, "they" are American citizens who have committed crimes. Or not.

Am I understanding your point?

[cuke]

41. "They" are "undocumented aliens"

Some of them are not immigrants. Some of them are. Some of them are here LEGALLY, some are not.

" if they aren't immigrants at all, and have been in the USA for many generations, "

I don't understand the question. If someone was born in the US, they're a citizen and immigration has nothing to do with it. But yes, if they break the law, they go to jail. I'm just not sure what that has to do with immigration

My point is that "illegal" (and it's longer form "illegal immigrant") is a racist term used by the right wing to fan the flames of anger against immigrants.

[Quantess]

47. How can an "undocumented alien" NOT be an immigrant?

[cuke]

53. Migrant workers

get temporary employment with plans to return home at some point. They're not immigrants. People who come on tourist or student visas and stay past the end date but intend on returning home. People who come to the US and don't NEED documents.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[cuke]

13. So you've got nothing

quelle surprise

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Didereaux]

23. you just made my very short 'ignore list' congats! n/t

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[fizzgig]

46. wrong

just a quick glance at the ice web site showed no usage of "undocumented resident," rather usage of illegal alien, removable alien, illegal immigrant and illegal migration.

http://www.ice.gov/pi/topics/immref/index.htm
http://www.ice.gov/about/operations.htm (under Office of Detention and Removal Operations)
http://www.ice.gov/pi/topics/index.htm (under immigration enforcement)

[Danger Mouse]

49. way to kick ass, baby

:hug:

[fizzgig]

51. will you feel the same way when i'm outed as a racist?

:eyes:

[Danger Mouse]

56. i'll still love you, even if you ARE a bigot.

:P

[Igel]

11. That would make it your turn to provide a link in the argument.

Usually that consists of a fact or bit of logic, not saying "neenah-neenah".

[cuke]

16. Already done

Don't let the reading stop you

[Quantess]

5. Sounds like a rhetorical question. (eom)

[Xenotime]

18. It's racism at the core.

That's why you see dog the bounty hunter and other people who hate minorities.

[mitchum]

43. Your rhetoric would be considered weak shit even on the playground

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swamp Rat]

50. LOL!

:rofl:

[Swamp Rat]

45. "some posters who insist"

Links?

[alittlelark]

52. They are here to illegally pick the cucumbers you put in your salad

PS, We stole NM, CA, AZ, TX.... from them. They were here first.

In all honesty WE are the 'illegals'. Both Native Americans and Mexicans were here well before our genocide and wars.


But, in regards to your post..... You are stretching and grasping.

[Matariki]

55. Not to derail anything here, but the Spanish merely got here first in terms of genocide and wars.

I mean if we're going to point fingers along those lines.

[Danger Mouse]

57. We stole land from them that they stole from Native Americans, too.

So yeah, they stole this land FIRST...but yeah...still not cool...

[bridgit]

54. of course they're here "illegally", the matter is that american capitalism's...

quest for cheap labor doesn't care one way or the other = "illegal", or "undocumented", and oh btw...

murder is not legal either

[Danger Mouse]

58. You seem to want to argue over the definition of immigrant.

So here you go. 'Illegal aliens' works just fine.
Because they are here illegaly.

[TAZller]

59. I hesitate...

Because you seem to not want the question answered. You have made up your mind and seem to not consider that your supposition is wrong... but here goes.

Using the term illegal to only define brown skinned individuals would be racist. Asuming any usage of the term "illegal" means solely brown skinned individuals is showing a racist biased bigotry on your part.

To be in this country with invalid or expired standing is illegal. Whether you are an illegal migrant, illegally expired tourist or student visa holding traveller, or any other form of alien that does not have a LEGAL standing in being here within the context of legal standing in this country you are an "Illegal". The important point here is the illegality of it all. Even undocumented is not a valid catch phrase because it is possible that an individual found themselves born here without it being documented... They would not be illegal and should not be deported and should not be refered to as illegal, although their standing may be hard to prove... and all of this is WITHOUT regard to race.

The point here is the illegality of it. Within the context of immigration if a shortened descriptor is to be used, "Illegal" is the one that defines the problem with their alien status and therefore a completely race-neutral or means-of-migrating-neutral and valid one.

One could say "I believe all illegals should be deported" meaning all illegal aliens...not just the white ones or brown ones or extra-celestrial ones or any other race based ones you might WANT to think I am talking about but the ILLEGAL ones. It would be your bigoted, closed minded, seeing a racist lurking around every corner self making that presumption.

[Norrin Radd]

60. I call them "hoopy froods."