The Republic is dead

[nadinbrzezinski]

no way around it folks, and of course the press has not written the obit either.

But it is dead

We are about to have a Senate confirm a person who refused to tell us that torture was torture

We have a house that refuses to use the strong medicine for times like this... because it would not be prudent

We the people have been screaming, but unless we are willing to take stronger measures... nobody is listening

Just like Rome, it is dead

Fait Acompli

And that window you see slamming is the end of a nation of laws

You see, NOT using the strong medicine means the precedent is set.

If we are not willing to use that medicine NOW... then when?

So it is time to think about how to survive the coming night.

And to the naysayers... you enabled this.

History will place you side by side with Good Germans, Good Italians, Good Chileans... and Good Romans... people who refused to act when they still had time.

I hope you are proud of yourselves and that you live long to reap the fruits and suffer through them.

[Fridays Child]

1. ...

:kick:

[demnan]

2. Yes! Everything is at stake!

Why doesn't our side understand this! I have worked in the impeachment movement all this year because I know that if we don't impeach these bastards now, we won't have a fair election nor will we have our Constitutional rights.

Tuesday, Dennis Kucinich is going to stand up for us. I'm going to be there to support him.

[stirlingsliver]

3. We Can Still Vote.

We can still vote.

But, honestly, what good does voting do??

No one seems to be listening.

No one is willing to do the right thing.

The few elected officials who do seem to want to do the right thing are painted as being "out of touch" when, in fact, they are the only ones in touch with reality and with the wishes of the American people.

Sad. Sad. So Sad.

[Faygo Kid]

5. You mean like in Florida in 2000, Ohio in 2004?

We'll see what 2008 brings. I'm in no way convinced a vote will even take place.

[stirlingsliver]

8. No, I Mean Like in 2006

No.

What I was really talking about was about what happened in 2006.

I think many of us thought that our votes in 2006 counted for something.

We would see and end to the war.

We would see Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the regime held accountable for their high crimes and misdemeanors.

We would see laws enacted that demonstrated compassion for the poor -- especially poor children.

We would see people voting against people who equivocate about torture.

THAT is what I was talking about.

2006.

[Faygo Kid]

20. I wish we had seen all the things you list.

I too had hoped that would happen. Now, I just hope the world doesn't explode because of Bush/Cheney, and that we have a free and fair election in 2008. I hold out no hope for laws enacted to help the poor, an end to torture or the war, etc. My great hope now is that we can just see the end of this regime, and start to rebuild our country, and the world, after the worst president in history.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Voting is also an ilusion

I hate to say it, but it is

I will vote, make them steal my vote, but I don't count on it counting

[defendandprotect]

73. You haven't been able to vote for 25 years . . . !!! See: VOTESCAM . . . PLEASE!!!!!

[cali]

92. maybe you haven't.. I vote with a paper and pencil

and most of the state races here cost a couple of hundred bucks.

[OneBlueSky]

83. and they still count the votes . . . checkmate . . . n/t

.

[stirlingsliver]

106. Even When We Count The Votes

Even when we count the votes, and the votes are counted fairly, what do we get?

We get the results of 2006.

And what did the results of 2006 yield?

Did we see an end to the war? No.

Did we see Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the regime held accountable for their high crimes and misdemeanors? No.

Did we see laws enacted that demonstrated compassion for the poor -- especially poor children? No.

Have we seen people voting against people who equivocate about torture? Not very many.

THAT is what I was talking about.

2006.

Even when we win, we lose.

[conspirator]

128. I agree. The issue is not whether you can vote, but the fact that the only choices are oligarch

puppets, than cannot change anything. The system is rigged from the core. Those with more money buy the elections.

[stirlingsliver]

130. Correct. It's The Golden Rule

Those with the Gold, Rule.

[aquart]

4. That's nice, dear.

[opihimoimoi]

7. Yup, instead of moving Forward...we wallow in minutiae moot Crap

Leaving the vital Solutions for our Society blowing in the wind....

The politicians we send to rep us...are a reflection of us ...the electorate.....

we reap what we vote for...thats the simple equation

Smart Voting gets us Smart Leaders, able to leap Complex Challenges in a single bound

Dumb Voting results in Dumb Leaders...unable solve efficiently, effectively...results are bitter losses...sometime drenched in Blood/waste/destruction....

Guess what? we got dumbness by the tons.....

Chuckie Schumer and Di Fi are too dumb to be there....86 them buggers ASAP

They are in favor of TORTURE....period....parsing of words not gonna get them off the hook....Their pathetic statements are just that...pathetic....

Humanity is on the verge of reaching Mars and beyond....at this rate....we ain't gonna reach shit....

[demnan]

11. Yeaahhh!

I just posted on this, but you said better!

:loveya:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3680588

[flashl]

9. Why do we accept / support a system that is not working in our interest?

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Well there you are inkling to a remedy I don't think most folks are

willing to go to, YET

[BeHereNow]

10. No further comment other than

People get the government they deserve.
Unfortunately, so do the rest of us.

Listen to the dumb asses that call in to
Washington Journal on C-span in the mornings.

It's over and there's no way in hell a democracy
can function in a free republic when the majority
of citizens are so ignorant and arrogant.
How do you inform such people of the truth?

You can't.
Game over.

BHN

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. And it will get worst

if they can, legally mind you, they will close all access to messages not aproved

They know they have almost won

And it is alnost, we are not there yet, but the door is closing so quickly I'd say December at most

[BeHereNow]

21. The closing door may slam shut any day now...one good crisis away...

and the people will welcome the door slamming shut.
Given the events on the world stage currently, it may be
sooner than we'd like to think about.
BHN

[bridgit]

12. it's not so dead as it has been so easily circumvented; this is an 18 century system...

a quaint little notion; the so-called founders had no idea the level of resolve a pernicious cadre would bring to bring this thing to heel and so now we are here having come face to face with that very pernicious cadre imo

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Actually they did

read the Federalists.. why they gave us the tools we have in that document

[bridgit]

24. then why is bush in office at all?

his handlers quote "the Federalists" routinely, yet, again, here we are

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Because the people who should be using the prescribed

tools don't want to use them.

Impeachment is the strong medicine that should be in use RIGHT NOW, for example

If you have a people unwilling to do their duty, well it leaves few choices to the rest of us.

And one of them was also prescribed by Jefferson

The Tree of Liberty needs watering every now and again

He also wrote that the US needed a new Constitution every generation or so... which belies the rightie idea that it is a static document

[cali]

13. shorter nadin:

If you don't agree with me on every detail, you're a nazi enabler.

And wishing suffering on people who don't take your word- or anybody else's as gospel is really out of bounds.

I'm sure this post will get dozens of recs.

What a shame.

[slowry]

88. shorter cali:

If you don't agree with me on any detail, you're someone who will call me a nazi enabler.

[cali]

91. lol. not even a good try, slow. n/t

[seemslikeadream]

17. The weeds seeds are there

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2965070058404167320&q=%22song+of+choice%22&total=57&start=20&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4



Early every year the seeds are growing
Unseen, unheard they lie beneath the ground
Would you know before their leaves are showing
That with weeds all your garden will abound?

If you close your eyes, stop your ears
Shut your mouth then how can you know ?
For seeds you cannot hear may not be there
Seeds you cannot see may never grow

In January you've still got the choice
You can cut the weeds before they start to bud
If you leave them to grow high they'll silence your voice
And in December you may pay with your blood

So close your eyes, stop your ears,
Shut your mouth and take it slow
Let others take the lead and you bring up the rear
And later you can say you didn't know

Every day another vulture takes flight
There's another danger born every morning
In the darkness of your blindness the beast will learn to bite
How can you fight if you can't recognise a warning?

Today you may earn a living wage
Tomorrow you may be on the dole
Though there's millions going hungry you needn't disengage
For it's them, not you, that's fallen in the hole

It's alright for you if you run with the pack
It's alright if you agree with all they do



If fascism is slowly climbing back



It's not here yet so what's it got to do with you?

The weeds are all around us and they're growing
It'll soon be too late for the knife
If you leave them on the wind that around the world is blowing
You may pay for your silence with your life

So close your eyes, stop your ears,
Shut your mouth and never dare
And if it happens here they'll never come for you
Because they'll know you really didn't care

Peggy Seeger

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Thanks that is good!

[seemslikeadream]

25. How can folks disgree with CHALMERS JOHNSON

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/27/1454229

CHALMERS JOHNSON: Nemesis was the ancient Greek goddess of revenge, the punisher of hubris and arrogance in human beings. You may recall she is the one that led Narcissus to the pond and showed him his reflection, and he dove in and drowned. I chose the title, because it seems to me that she's present in our country right now, just waiting to make her -- to carry out her divine mission.

By the subtitle, I really do mean it. This is not just hype to sell books -- “The Last Days of the American Republic.” I’m here concerned with a very real, concrete problem in political analysis, namely that the political system of the United States today, history tells us, is one of the most unstable combinations there is -- that is, domestic democracy and foreign empire -- that the choices are stark. A nation can be one or the other, a democracy or an imperialist, but it can't be both. If it sticks to imperialism, it will, like the old Roman Republic, on which so much of our system was modeled, like the old Roman Republic, it will lose its democracy to a domestic dictatorship.

I’ve spent some time in the book talking about an alternative, namely that of the British Empire after World War II, in which it made the decision, not perfectly executed by any manner of means, but nonetheless made the decision to give up its empire in order to keep its democracy. It became apparent to the British quite late in the game that they could keep the jewel in their crown, India, only at the expense of administrative massacres, of which they had carried them out often in India. In the wake of the war against Nazism, which had just ended, it became, I think, obvious to the British that in order to retain their empire, they would have to become a tyranny, and they, therefore, I believe, properly chose, admirably chose to give up their empire.

As I say, they didn't do it perfectly. There were tremendous atavistic fallbacks in the 1950s in the Anglo, French, Israeli attack on Egypt; in the repression of the Kikuyu -- savage repression, really -- in Kenya; and then, of course, the most obvious and weird atavism of them all, Tony Blair and his enthusiasm for renewed British imperialism in Iraq. But nonetheless, it seems to me that the history of Britain is clear that it gave up its empire in order to remain a democracy. I believe this is something we should be discussing very hard in the United States.

[kineneb]

89. I keep recommending that folks here read his series

Blowback: the Costs and Consequences of American Empire (2000, new introduction 2004)

The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic (2004)

Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic (2006)

One will not be so sanguine about our future after reading these book.

I also recommend

Collapse by Jared Diamond


Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--George Santayana, The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905
US (Spanish-born) philosopher (1863 - 1952)

[H2O Man]

18. Respectfully disagree.

Parts of it are indeed dead. That is the part found in Washington, DC. It's morally dead, mentally dead, and we should not waste our time pretending that it's anything else but. But there is life at the grass roots. There is hope. We are up against it, for sure. And that makes every action that each person takes at the grass roots level that much more important.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. The problem is that we may not have time

to turn this back waterman

Yes, it is in the grass roots, to paraphrase Naomi Wolf, that the hope still remeains

But tell me how effective have we been?

I've emailed, called written, et al

So have you

I have YET to influence anything

The demonstrations, and there are many... are not even registering in the news media (So AP had some photos, they were not on the Teevee)

The ony thing that will have ANY effect is a national strike

Organizing that... good luck, not part of the American culture, I fear

What we are facing is huge and until MOST folks realize what we are facing... a few of us holdign the hole on the wall will just slow it down...perhaps long enough, but it is time to face the posiblity that what we are facing is so large and evil that we need to prepare to SURVIVE, as in simply survive.

[H2O Man]

23. Very effective.

We have survived an attack that has made cowards of those in Washington who swore to uphold and protect the Constitution. They have compromised their values, and betrayed their country. We're still struggling. And we are becoming stronger. Slowly, but surely. I would not say that if it were not true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. I hope you are right

but I fear the historical patterns I am seeing don't support this thesis

That aproval of a man who could not define torture... may very well be the last nail in the coffin.

There are days I wish I went into basket weaving and not history...

Would make this far easier to take... mostly would not be able to see the patterns

[H2O Man]

33. Do both.

I'm not being a wise guy. Basket-weaving is a great idea. It is a variation on Gandhi's spinning wheel. I am getting back into making candles. It is small, but it brings peace of mind to me. I am only able to do good when I have peace of mind.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. We paint gaming miniatures...

and I do paint (electronically that is) using Corel Painter on both Mac and Win machines

It brings me peace as well

But going back to this... I truly hope you are right

[Beetwasher]

75. We Have A Powerful Weapon

That's never been available before now. The internets. I don't know what the future holds, but I do think there is still hope. We've made significant strides in an extremely brief amount of time. It took what, 30 years for the the "Right" to get to the point where they are, and thanks to the internets, we've already built an effective anti-dote that accomplished an astounding, practically miraculous feat w/ the '06 elections, in what? 5 years? We have the tools. If we use them effectively we can change history, The world has never seen anything like the internets before, so the past can only tell us so much about what the future may hold.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. I truly hope you are right and I can eat some

humble pie... I truly do

[elehhhhna]

I truly believe it was the ANTHRAX mailings that made COWRDS of CONGRESS

[defendandprotect]

74. I think the JFK assassination . . . where this evil power came into the open . . .

though the Anthrax mailings showed the width and breadth of this evil ---

[cali]

94. since receiving his anthrax letter,

Leahy has continuously proposed and written legislation that punches the admin in the nose, hard. Most of it, like the Habeas Restoration Act, may not have been passed, but it's hardly stopped him and others from trying. Why do you think Cheney told him to go fuck himself? Because he's so accomadating.

[leftchick]

115. not at all

It Was Corporate CASH!

[Cooley Hurd]

34. Absolutely! Until we are completely silenced...

...we have recourse.

[shadowknows69]

39. How long is that?

I keep thinking about some of the more caustic writers on DU that I'm not seeing on here anymore. I am becoming afraid to write much these days because I'm not sure I can restrain my words nor do I even know where the line may lie anymore. I even have some fears about the taxi reports I did because of the chimperors new edict that people "hampering the Iraq war effort" can be named enemy combatants. We still have our illusion of freedom of speech but they only allow it because we don't control the mainstream media and there they can control the message. I'm thinking I'm drinking tonight. Thanks for cheering me up nadin. ;)

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Drink for me will ya

I don't touch the stuff

;-)

[shadowknows69]

47. I don't very much either

but if I don't numb my brain I'll go insane.

[Cooley Hurd]

52. We have time...

...the trends are certainly dismal - we have time (but not much).:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

76. I started a thread the other day to try to point out how TORTURE is connected

to silencing Americans -- but there were few takers.

The neo-cons can't pull off a take-over of the nation without TORTURE ---

[lonestarnot]

121. The grass in my roots is getting pooped.

[Balbus]

27. Someone said that exact same thing...

back in then end of 1776. And it's been said a million-plus times since then. We'll be okay - just like the million-plus times since then.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. We had a republic in 1776?

No we did not.

And our modern Constituional system or what remains of it, started in 1787 when the Constitution was ratified

[ixion]

29. installing Mukasey as AG confirms it... and confirms that we TORTURE

no more ifs ands or buts. no more excuses. we are now a nation of torturers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. And not a nation of laws

[Cooley Hurd]

32. I disagree - the Republic will die IF Bush doesn't leave in 2k9...

...or a BFEE-picked successor is elected. We still have time to save it!

[Warren Stupidity]

35. Did you notice how the congress we elected in 2006

made no difference at all?

Do you understand the implications of what has transpired since that election, most recently demonstrated by the Mukasey debacle?

Barring a most unexpected development, in January 2009 the Corporate Kleptocracy and War Party will inaugurate its candidate as President, hold a comfortable majority in both houses of Congress, and control the Judiciary.

We have an effective one party system.

[Cooley Hurd]

37. Of course the congress has been ineffective...

We DON'T have a clear majority in the Senate, which means we can't override Bush's temper-tantrums. After '08, IF the populace gets their collective heads out of their collective asses, we can have a majority AND reverse most of it. We're crippled, BUT not DEAD YET.:thumbsup:

[Warren Stupidity]

61. Please pay attention.

For example Mukasey's nomination is going to clear the judiciary committee with the aid of Schumer and Feinstein. We don't have to overpower Bush, we just have to have an opposition party. We do not have an opposition party, we have a potemkin village of opposition instead.

"we can't override Bush's temper-tantrums" - this argument is specious and now quite lame. Our party is riddled with War Party supporters. That is the problem, not the war criminal in the white house.

[shadowknows69]

42. What if Hillary Clinton is the BFEE picked sucessor?

Or Obama or Edwards. What if the game is truly fixed?

[Cooley Hurd]

51. ...or Biden or Dodd?

I think things are still fluid enough to NOT throw in the towel.;)

[dysfunctional press]

60. "if?"....

poppy and bubba aren't all buddy-buddy for no reason.

they have history.

[Elspeth]

77. Ah

That explains the photo ops

And NAFTA

[kineneb]

90. or the Bilderburg chosen sucessor?

"these things" may decided on an even higher level than we know...

...think Andrea Merkel...

(adjusts tinfoil tiara)

[FreepFryer]

36. No it isn't. We have not yet begun to fight. There's a long road a'ho, but we'll win. (n/t)

[NeedleCast]

38. What are you doing...

...to lead the revolution?

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. I've been doing what I can do

but unless others join up and do things that are necessary, such as national strikes (fat chance) ...

One person can be as effective as long as others are willing to join

[NeedleCast]

50. No seriously

What are you doing to lead the revolution? Are you ready to take up arms? Are you ready to do something other than "lead" from behind a keyboard? Tell me, when's the tea party?

Because honestly, I read your daily dose of doom and gloom and all I see is that charlatan standing on a busy street corner holding a sign that says "REPENT NOW, THE END IS NEAR!!" That guy...that's you. I see you telling us how much we suck and how us sheeple are embracing the end. Your argument is the usual fundamentalist bullshit that says "I'm right and if you don't agree with me you're going straight to hell!" Except when you say it, it's "I'm right, and if you disagree with me you're an enabler for Bush."

So you can keep on with your self-indulgent bullshit posts. Me? I'm going to fight. And if I don't win today, I'm going to fight tomorrow. And if I don't win tomorrow, I'm going to fight the day after that. I'm going to carry the torch of hope that says we're going to get through this black part of our history. Because that's what the progressive message should be...Hope. Not this doom and gloom shit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. I have stated repeatedly that I am willing to die

if need be to preserve the Constitution

So are you leading the tea party? or are you just asking for the sake of asking?

So how about you?

Oh and by the way... this daily dossage of glom and doom at one time was seen as effective

Oh never mind

[NeedleCast]

104. You keep going on like you've got something to sell

I don't know that doom and gloom has EVER been a good way to motivate. Show me some sort of modern motivational techniques that uses depressing, end-is-near tactics to lead a charge. Show me what great battles, show me what great political victories, show me what great achievements, show me what great accomplishments...have been made by a leader saying "the end is near!"

No one is interested in following your doom and gloom message not because of the message, but because of the way it's delivered.

As for me. Yeah, if Bush doesn't leave office in 2008 then you can bet I'll be there in front of the white house ready to forcefully remove him. Unlike you, I don't think the end is near. I think we'll have elections in 2008. I think the Democrats will win. I think things will get better.

If you want to be a leader, you need to make people want to follow you. Few will follow the leader saying "it's too late, why bother, you're all idiot enablers, this won't work."

[warren pease]

107. OK, that simply won't do...

You write: "Show me some sort of modern motivational techniques that uses depressing, end-is-near tactics to lead a charge."

What exactly do you think BushCo has been selling since their very own Reichstag Fire? They've gleefully hopscotched over the charred or pulverized corpses of the WTC to sell their apocalyptic vision of constant war which, by definition, can never end against a mythical, Goldstein-like enemy who probably doesn't exist.

And, right according to script, the slack-jawed chowder heads who subscribe to the mainstream version of reality here in Dumbfuckistan, the world capital of attention deficit disorder, have morphed from a bunch of swaggering pseudo hard-asses into a herd of panicked livestock -- afraid of their own shadows, afraid of swarthy men with facial hair, afraid of immigrants, afraid of intellect, afraid of the left, afraid of running out of visqueen and duct tape, afraid of life itself.

This campaign of depressing, end-is-near tactics has been unsuccessful how, exactly? Have americans bought into the war rationales pitched to them by the usual M$M hucksters and pimps? Has the opposition party raised more than a token finger to even delay the BushCo steamroller?

Do you see any significant signs of effective resistance to the BushCo/PNAC agenda, which can be summarized as: destroy the lower and middle classes, demoralize and scare them into submission, transfer their remaining wealth to the top 1 percent, keep their kids dumb and compliant, bankrupt them through unpayable revolving credit lines, fake mortgages and obscene medical bills, maintain a constant state of war for the benefit of armaments makers and as a proven mechanism for social control, isolate them by casting their peers as their enemies, ratchet up the ambient level of free-floating angst and fear, blame the non-existent threat of international terrorism for all these miseries, wrap the whole thing in phony patriotism and simplistic evangelical religiosity, then fade to black amid ritualistic chants of USA! USA! USA!

Sounds like one hell of a successful PR campaign to me. And in case anyone still refuses to be duped or pummeled into submission, there's always the iron fist of the patriot acts, the military commissions act, NPSD 51/HSPD-20 and those two EOs that allow the feds to steal all your stuff if you oppose their "humanitarian efforts" in Iraq or disagree with their assessment of who the bad guys are in Syria and Lebanon.

These suppression systems are real, on the books and cleared for takeoff. They just haven't been fully implemented yet.

You say you'll finally get the point if Bush doesn't leave office in 2009. I say that it'll be a miracle if he does. The right wing has been waiting for something like Bush/Cheney to occupy the white house for perhaps 100 years or more. Do you honestly suppose that the people who pull the administration's strings will just crawl back under their rocks because time's up? Do you really think these megalomaniacs and mass murderers will simply go away just because the Constitution says they have to? Given their historic disregard for any Constitutional provisions that hamper their agenda, what makes you think they'll suddenly develop a reverence for the law of the land and go quietly?

I wish I could share your optimism/naivete. However, not being real big on self-deception and recognizing the repetitive behavioral patterns of this horrible administration, I wouldn't bet a dime on an orderly transition. Rather, I'd bet on martial law here and expansion of the genocide in the Middle East passing as foreign policy.

And what the hell are you going to do then? Shake your fist at the robocops guarding the white house gates?


wp

[NuttyFluffers]

124. some posts are so beautiful they need to be savored like wine...

i'm still rolling the lingering cascade of invectives against the nation's "chowder heads" over and over on my palate. chastisement, if done right, has a sweetness rarely rivaled. mmm, delicious...

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. Have you read any of John dean's books?

Plenty of gloom and doom in there

How about Naomi Wolf?

How about Naomi Klein

Any of the books on the stolen elections?

how about Joe Conason?

They are not bringing you a cheerful message either.

I wish I could be as happy and go lucky as you are.

By the way... in case you have not noticed, I am not asking you to follow me, but to pay attention and realize where we are as a nation. And it is NOT a happy place... and all of this is PREDICTIVE

I am not leading the tea party.

I have done things though that put me in line for disappearance once they implement all the tools of the police state that they have put in place. I know that. I don't expect to make it to the other side. Yet I keep telling you... the happy go lucky crowds pay attention, you are quickly running out of time to stand up. And WE, yes WE need to take action sooner rather than later... but I don't expect it... the population has been properly cowed through predictive actions by the state.

Is that clear enough for you?

But unlike the happy go lucky try to sell me something and don't depress me crowd that asks for action... I already have acted and taken risks and you may even say paid some of the price... and I continue to act every day.

I'm not demanding you to follow... I'm NOT your leader...

I am warning you of what is coming, and it is UP TO YOU TO ACT

If you want a leader... you will have to look inside of you and start with the simplest of actions... talking to your neighbors and breaking the silence.. which is one of the tools of the police state... and yes I have also posted threads detailing things YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW... and yes talking to your neighbors after you realize where exactly we are is one of the most critical steps, creating UNITY and COMMON PURPOSE

But if you are expecting a leader on an internet board.. you are looking in the wrong place.

On the other hand, my role in this in some ways is not unlike that of the people who wrote panphlets that helped to wake up a generation some 280 years ago. They also did not bring cheerful messages, especially when talking of King George and his minions... and the people who read those documents found it in themselves to take the actions they felt they needed to take.

So what are YOU willing to do? And waiting for 2009 may very well be too late.

It is not only me who says that

But John Dean, Naomi Wolf, Joe Connason... other Cassandras I guess, who have been drawing from the same historical record I have and reached the same damn conclusions.

When the night finally comes I hope to share some time with them... and not the Pollyanas it could not happen here crowd.

[tabasco]

78. Thank you.

I'm sick of this doom & gloom defeatist crap myself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. If it gets you to act then it served its function

then there is this great thing called ignore thread.

[Mojambo]

40. I think I've subconsciously been prepping for the "coming night" for a long while now.

No family to support, no relationships, very few possessions. Almost no obligations or connections to this corrupt society. No mortgage or credit cards.

No hopes, no dreams, no aspirations.

Ironically, having no life seems to be the best way to prepare one to live in the "New" America.

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. Melodrama

:nopity:

I hear the mournful strings....

:rofl:

[cali]

56. I wish I had your attitude.

I find this stuff offensive as well as simple.

[Perry Logan]

43. I think we should start a special section at DU for threads designed to bring everyone down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Or to wake people up

we still have a little time

IF WE CHOOSE COLLECTIVELY TO ACT

[cali]

49. what fun would that be for the secular apocalyptists and

those claiming the mantle of righteousness? I mean who will they be able to call nazis and wish suffering on if they're relegated to some dungeon where only the like minded are present?

[Elspeth]

53. It would be more fun for the deliberately and arrogantly blind

and those who love to watch them twist themselves into pretzels to write a convincing argument about how fine and dandy everything is.

Ostriches are always amusing. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Careful some of these ostriches

believe calling them such is a personal attack

;-)

[Elspeth]

57. But it only makes them pink

and rather silly. :)

[cali]

55. please. twist everything much?

Wow. Find one single post of mine where I EVER claim everything is great? Clue: it doesn't exist. Could you be more disingenuous. My argument about this is that dwelling in such monumental negativity accomplishes nothing, and it's counterproductive. Recognize that we face HUGE challenges, sure. Fight the encroachments on our civil liberties. Oppose corporate control and the administration, but don't go saying it's all over, and frankly, what's incredibly arrogant is the OP saying she hopes people who don't agree with her- and yes, that's what she'saying- suffer. Furthermore she's calling those who don't agree with her, "good germans".

You want to align yourself with that, that's your right. But don't fucking tell untruths about what I said, and don't pretend that you weren't directly addressing me in your post. Have at least that much courage and decency.

Goodnight.

[Elspeth]

58. Hyperbolize much?

:)

[cali]

59. Lame.

Funny but lame. Thanks for the laugh. I need it. In light of the hyperbole in the OP, your comment is perfectly ironic.

[Elspeth]

66. No, appropriate and to the point. It's about all your post deserved.

And now, for the IGNORE button.

Ciao chickie.

[cali]

68. LOL

another person who can't handle an opposing viewpoint- or facts.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. Here is another one of those nut jobs you snarkalate over:

A Last Thought Before the Senate Judiciary Committee Confirms Judge Mukasey

By John W. Dean

As the Senate Democrats complete another sad concession to President Bush, and confirms a nominee who refuses to declare “water-boarding” torture, allow me to offer a brief historical reminder: the Senate Judiciary Committee has conspicuously forgotten that there are direct situational and historical parallels with Judge Mukasey’s nomination to be Attorney General and that of President Richard Nixon nominating Elliot Richardson to be Attorney General during Watergate.

Nixon’s Attorney General had been removed (and was later prosecuted for lying to Congress) – a situation not unlike Alberto Gonzales’s leaving the job under such a cloud. Nixon was under deep suspicion of covering up the true facts relating to the bungled break-in at the Democratic National Committee headquarters at the Watergate, not to mention widespread rumors that he had engaged in abuses of power and corrupt campaign practices. Today, Bush is under even deeper suspicion for activities far more serious than anything Nixon engaged in for there is evidence Bush has abused the laws of war, violated treaties, and ordered (or approved) the use of torture and political renditions, which are war crimes.

Since Judge Mukasey’s situation is not unlike that facing Elliot Richardson when he was appointed Attorney General during Watergate, why should not the Senate Judiciary Committee similarly make it a quid pro quo for his confirmation that he appoint a special prosecutor to investigate war crimes? Richardson was only confirmed when he agreed to appoint a special prosecutor, which, of course, he did. And when Nixon fired that prosecutor, Archibald Cox, it lead to his impeachment.

Before the Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee completely cave-in to Bush, at minimum they should demand that Judge Mukasey appoint a special prosecutor to investigate if war crimes have been committed. If Mukasey refuses he should be rejected. This, indeed, should be a pre-condition to anyone filling the post of Attorney General under Bush.

If the Democrats in the Senate refuse to demand any such requirement, it will be act that should send chills down the spine of every thinking American.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/057806.php

[cali]

65. That you can compare Mr. Dean's comments to this OP

is extraordinary. I largely agree with Mr. Dean- though I'd point out that the balance of power is different now, and it's not an exact parallel. Furthermore, it's moot as those on the panel rejecting him, are rejecting him for his refusal to condemn torture practices.

I can't get over that you think this article has common ground with the OP. Oh, well.

[John Q. Citizen]

81. "If the Democrats in the Senate refuse to demand any such requirement,

it will be act that should send chills down the spine of every thinking American."

Why does Dean say it shpuld send chills down the spine of every thinking American?

If it's really not that big of a deal, I mean?

[Warren Stupidity]

86. The poster appears to be unfamiliar with Mr. Dean's recent works.

John Dean is way over in Naomi Wolf's corner warning us that we are witnessing what Ms. Wolf refers to as a 'fascist shift'. I honestly don't know what we Cassandras can do other than keep up the dire warnings. It really is as bad as it appears to be.

[cali]

97. oh for the love of rationality

I'm not denying that this country couldn't be headed for full fascism, or that steps haven't been taken that could pave the way.
Try and keep up.

[John Q. Citizen]

103. So what do you think we should do to reverse it?

[cali]

112. start where you are, instead of focusing endlessly on

dystopia and apocalyptic scenarios. work at the state level electing people who are willing to take on corporate interests. And keep wititng letters, informing people in your community through bringing in guests to speak at forum- my p&j group does this regularly. keep contacting your congressional reps. In short, keep doing whatever it is you do. How is writing, "it's hopeless, it's all over, the fat lady has left the stage", helpful?

[John Q. Citizen]

132. Recognition ot the problem is the first step to soliving it. if we deny the existence of the

problem, then when we meet in our groups we will focus instead on things like affordable day care instead of that facism is already here.

I see it as consciousness raising. The fact we are discussing it is encouraging in and of itself.

1/3 of all adult black males are currently in some part of our gulog system, for instance. How can that be?

[warren pease]

117. Double negative: Freudian or just sloppy?

>"I'm not denying that this country couldn't be headed for full fascism..."

Which, translated into our native tongue, means "I'm denying that this country could be headed for full fascism..."

So which is it?


wp

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. You know WP I truly admire you

I got tired of arguing with walls.

In fact, my wall here at home is far more movable and less painful to hit my head against.

At the very least I will ding it...

But denial is a strong narcotic... and I don't kow if it is agenda driven or simply fear driven.

[warren pease]

120. I'll take fear-driven for a thousand, Alex. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Fear driven then it is

:-)

[cali]

126. yes, I used a double negative: I'm guilty of being sloppy

yes, the U.S. has abbrogated important civil liberties, and we could be headed for full fascism, but to state as the OP has done, that it's all over, utterly hopeless, is not only counter-productive, it's overly dramatic.

[Elspeth]

71. Who'd have thought that Watergate's John Dean would end up being a truthteller

and one of the few hopes of our Republic?

There's a man who learned from his brush with the power hungry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. History will treat him kindly

and that is the truth

[kineneb]

96. there are quite a number of the "paleo-conservatives" that agree with him

Paul Craig Roberts comes to mind, at the essayist level...

And from personal experience- lots of Rotary members, who are disgusted with the blatant corruption of the BFEE, and the disaster of Iraq. They can't bring themselves to register as Dems, but many have changed registration to Independent. The Rs should realize if they lose the nation's Rotary members, the party is done for.

[Warren Stupidity]

62. It will be right next to the Don't Worry Be Happy forum.

Heck you might get into the orchestra in the camps with a positive attitude like that!

[cali]

67. have fun twisting and spinning

all that bullshit you're mired in!

[Warren Stupidity]

87. Ok. How about Naomi Wolf, is she full of shit too?

There is a rather long list of other rather bright folks who are all pretty much pounding out the same theme. All of us are full of shit? Not one kernel of gritty truth there?

[cali]

93. No. She makes some good point and she's

wrong on others, imo. Same with the other Naomi. And neither of them go as far as this OP, which states categorically that it's all over and hopeless.

Continue on with simply making shit up and twisting away.

[Warren Stupidity]

109. Have you even read her latest book?

I'm guessing not.

[cali]

110. I've read exerpts and I have it on order

at the library. I'm certainly aware of her rather vague fascism check off list.

[warren pease]

119. Rather vague...

As in:

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy. Check

2. Create a gulag. Check

3. Develop a thug caste. Check

4. Set up an internal surveillance system. Check

5. Harass citizens' groups. Check

Read the rest of these rather vague items here.

The script has been played out so often, by mad fascists and petty satraps alike, that it's now a highly choreographed event which even the more gullible among us should be able to follow.

You just steadfastly refuse to get it, don't you? You'll be the one flashing the peace sign, mistaking the 21st century for the '60s, mere seconds before the thug knocks you down and kicks you in the ribs three or four times -- grinning like a demented toddler the whole time.

And just before losing consciousness, you'll experience the horrible realization that your entire pollyanna happy talk belief system -- which enables you to blithely deny or rationalize away the most obvious signs that presage the soul-crushing national security state, and which further enables you to heap scorn on people who know that the whole sick dance is liable to replay when a population is stupid and scared enough -- is based on pure, unadulterated, world-class horseshit.


Sweet dreams,

wp

[cali]

127. lol

if all this does come to pass, most of you- including the OP are fucked, but I, who you blindly call a pollyanna, am probably in a far better position to weather the shit that may come down, because although I live in the present, and fight in the present, I've been preparing for a bad outcome for over 20 years. Hell, friends and I have already mapped routes to get into Canada in winter or summer. And we've actually done dry runs on skis, and in boats. And we did that 15 fucking years ago. I don't dwell on shit, I actually prepare for it.

So, sadly, you and your idiot cohorts who can do nothing but blather are more likely to be the victims of any disastererous scenario that comes to pass, than I.

Put that in your little crack pipe and smoke it.

[warren pease]

129. Well, see you in Canada then...

Well, well... The first chink in the armor. Cali is on record admitting that things aren't exactly wonderful here in the land of the formerly free. Amazing what a little creative harassment will produce.

I hope your skiing hasn't deteriorated as badly as mine has over the past 15 years.

I, too, have multiple escape routes and numerous addresses north of the 48th. It would be naive to hold my views and not act upon them. However, there's also that nasty North American Union, which is scheduled for full implementation by 2010, and which will open borders among Canada, Mexico and the US while, incidentally, voiding the Constitution. It would be nice if the NAU were able to elevate standards in the US and Mexico to those of Canada -- environmental law, health care, labor law and so forth -- but clearly this sneaky little piece of shit is designed to have the opposite effect.

So, if the NAU plays out according to script, Canada won't be much of an alternative. I'd suggest looking south, perhaps all the way to the newly progressive countries of South America. If they can manage to carve out a sphere of influence independent of the US, they have a chance to become the hemispherical counterweight to this hideous monster we live in.

Also, it would be best if you were to refrain from insinuating that people are crack users in the future.


wp

[cali]

131. god, is it really that hard to read what I actually write here?

I have never, ever said things are great. It would be best if you refrained from stating something that isn't even close to the truth about what I've written. I do write that I think the odds are not in favor of such events happening in the next few years, but I'm a hope for the best prepare for the worst kind of person.

When I was studying for my (2nd) MA in history 10 years ago- on Millenarianism at the dawn of the 21st century- I had a Classics professor, a wonderful Italian woman who said something like this:
"Who knows what keeps the world from devolving into complete chaos and blowing apart? Me, I believe it's some monk sitting in a cave somwhere and praying." I got exactly what she was saying. Maybe you will too.

And sadly, though I still ski every winter, I don't do the long treks over really tough terrain anymore. And I hate to admit it, but I do more downhill than x-country too. I've been skiing downhill for almost all of my life, and it's a guilty addiction.

And I sincerely apologize for the crack pipe comment. That crossed the line.

[Joe Fields]

69. It was a coup, pure and simple, and few realized it.

And now here we are.

Seriously, what else can you call it, when two branches of the government have been co-opted by the executive branch, which claims ever increasing power?

The neocons took more than 20 years to put it all into place, but they did a damned thorough job. So thorough, that even the vote in 2006 to create a democratic congress did absolutely no good.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Yep, I've called it a coup before as well

and people tell me, but.. but there is no military... involved

It is amazing how many folks don't realize that we do not have to follow the same exact models that
would be extremely easy to recognize

[John Q. Citizen]

82. Look at Mexico, 75 years of a perfect dictatorship, one term of possible (false) hope and

they are right back where they started.

The oliacrchy just co-opted the other party, and it's the same old shit all over again.

Kind of like 06 for us.

[defendandprotect]

79. Evidently, we were counting on our Congress to realize it . . .

Like sitting in front of our TVs waiting to hear something REAL . . .

Waiting for our Congress to do something hasn't worked either ---

they didn't do anything in 1963 . . . or when MLK was killed . . . nor when RFK was killed . . .

And they are not going to do anything now.

I think we have to go back and figure out who did something about those things --
many able and intellligent people did do something -- they've delivered the truth to our
eyes and ears -- they've worked to investigate and uncover what actually happened ---

We have to acknowledge and thank those people ---

And, right now other brave people are investigating anthrax and 9/11 -- and still the campaign of lies to take us to an illegal war in Iraq -- and possibly soon in Iran -- !!!!

[Perry Logan]

84. Current investigations Congress is undertaking...

http://oversight.house.gov/investigations.asp

There are countless investigations going on. Healthcare is on the table. The internet is safe for now. Our wounded vets are no longer lying around in their own urine. The Senate Ethics Committee is back in action. Many 9/11 Commission recommendations are being passed. A bill to increase financial aid for colleges has passed--the single largest increase in college aid since the GI bill.

The President's signing statements are being investigated. Legislation to restore haberus corpus has been approved. The Senate Armed Services Commitee has passed legislation "that would grant new rights to terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay. The unions have a voice in the government now—as do gays, women, and minorities. The environment has a fighting chance.

The House passed the Taxpayer Protection Act, to protect taxpayers against "identity theft, deceptive Web sites and loan sharks." It also makes it "easier for taxpayers to retrieve property lost as a result of a wrongful Internal Revenue Service levy and directs the IRS to notify lower-income people that they qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit." The House approved a bill spending $1.7 billion over five years for cleaner water. There's a new House committee devoted solely to addressing the issue of global warming. And so on.

[Amonester]

85. And we do not torture.

And the sun shines so much better in Iraq that it's time for a new round of fabricated lies and fear-mongering catapults to hit the sold-out news services again.

And more U.S. poor children have access to health-care, instead of all U.S. children.

And listen: "WE DO NOT TORTURE!" 'cause king george awol says so.

bravo :sarcasm:

[seemslikeadream]

95. ***Brother Ali - Uncle Sam Goddamn***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO18F4aKGzQ

[backscatter712]

98. What was the name of that Star Trek movie?

The one that came after First Contact? Starts with an "I"?

We need to start talking about that. It's literally that bad. We need to discuss tactics, we need to get tools, and we need to start hardening ourselves, preparing ourselves for doing those things that need to be done.

Because they're gathering the same tools and tactics, to destroy us. They've hardened their hearts long ago, to the point where they don't see us as human. It will be a literal case of us or them, and I'd much rather it be us.

[Swamp Rat]

99. Johnny has something to say to the enablers:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

100. I think the most chilling thing about this dude they're about to confirm....

...is the fact that he thinks that sometimes the president has to go outside the law to perform his duties. WHAT THE HELL!?
Duckie

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Right out of Nixon's playbook

I mean if the President does it then it is legal.

And yes I am quoting him.

But this is what a small group of RIGHT WING Ameircans believe in... damn the Constitution and a nation of laws, not men

[GreenArrow]

105. "Round the world and home again

That's the sailor's way
Faster faster, faster faster

There's no earthly way of knowing
Which direction we are going
There's no knowing where we're rowing
Or which way the river's flowing

Is it raining, is it snowing
Is a hurricane a-blowing

Not a speck of light is showing
So the danger must be growing
Are the fires of Hell a-glowing
Is the grisly reaper mowing

Yes! the danger must be growing
For the rowers keep on rowing
And they're certainly not showing
Any signs that they are slowing..."

[shadowknows69]

108. That part of the movie scared the crap out of me as a kid

[GreenArrow]

114. the way things are going

scares the crap out of me as an adult.

[AuntPatsy]

111. i don't believe it is yet but it very well could be, so if anything, what your

thread should be saying is that common people, stand up and be heard, get out on the streets and begin staging your objections loudly and clearly, ensure the media has no choice but to show these protests by the very people they declare they care the most about.

Lets begin writing letter campaigns, help get darkhorse politicians who can be assured they address the will of the people inside out government meetings and so on and so on and so on....

Saying it is just gone is being defeatist and doesn't really help

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. I have pointed in the past what people can do

but I fear mukaskey going through is the final nail

Now you have a government that is no longer a government of laws, but of men

And a government that has subverted the systems of law

Fascism is a slow process but as Naomi Wolf and others have pointed out, we are very close to that end

If you think that writing letters (I have) and taking to the streets (again have done that) will change the dynamic, go for it

The only thing that will stop it at this point is a national strike combined with people on the streets and perhaps some broken skulls and some dead people. Short of that... I doubt it

Care to tell me when a SUCCCESFUL national strike is going to happen?

I will participate on the tuesday action...

But I expect it to go as well as any other national strike has gone... not very well thank you

[NuttyFluffers]

125. full bore fascism tends to flare out quite rapidly though, ;)

well, in a macro view of human history... even shorter in a cosmic one! :D

honestly though The Decadence and Hubris are upon us, rapidly bringing forth The Acceptance. which is rather sad, except for the national awakening part, because The Powers that Be have already set up the culmination: The Fall. it'll be a painful next 5-7 years, but it is just a necessary vibrational shift for the coming of The Transition. i recommend people giving their loved ones an extra hug and learning how to resonate to sympathetic chords; one will be for saying temporary goodbye in preparation what is coming and the other will be a survival trait. other than that 2015 looks to be a rather interesting year in fashion and the arts...

[blues90]

113. It certainly looks that way

It not only looks that way , it is rapidly becoming a reality .

What we had is gone and what we have to look forward to is bleak . At my age I know I'll never see the change for the better it one is even still possible .

It seems what people hold onto is 2008 as the promise but is this what it really will be ?