Ilegal immigration and how to stop this

[nadinbrzezinski]

What we have is not an ilegal employee issue, but an ilegal EMPLOYER issue.

When the law is enforced, and EMPLOYERS are fined to the full extent of the law, you will see this disapear.

You will also see prices of some goods and services go up...

But for all those who hate the ilegals... you want to stop this... enforce the damn law... and FINE the EMPLOYERS

Yes, like a few other things, it is that simple

And all the hate the ilegals that we have seen here form time to time may feel good, but ain't gonna get you any permament solution

Don't expect them fines though, not as long as cheap labor is the ultimate goal

Now reaching for the nomex and the cooling gell, I know what's comming...

:hide:

[Selatius]

1. Bring the hammer down on employers, but...

at the same time, the ultimate responsibility lies with the federal government to ensure workers are documented. The job shouldn't be left up to individual employers to set up a background check program, especially since you can't question a SS ID card, driver's license, and other forms of ID unless you have probable cause. Otherwise, you can be sued for discriminatory hiring practices by private attorneys.

Law enforcement is supposed to be responsible for combating document fraud and Social Security fraud.

If I'm an employer and I hire a person who presents ID that looks valid and gives me no probable cause that the person is an illegal immigrant, then am I responsible for the fine if it turns out the person is an illegal immigrant?

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. That is easy too

when you become a Legal Alien you get two things, a Green Card and a SS card... both are reuired for proof of employablity under hte '87 law... and you are required to carry your Green Card and present it upon demand by any law enforcement officer.

I know, been to that dance.

The hole is the lack of a national database for these workers that works

If you have such a database the feds are doing their job... and if you, as an employer, don't check on it, then you are commiting a crime

But the solutions are very simple

They will not be enforced since hate feels good and some employers WANT and actually RELY on cheap labor

[Arkansas Granny]

26. You bring up a good point and one that we were discussing just

the other day. When we hire a new employee, we have them fill out an I-9 form and ask for the ID that is required. I am not trained to spot forgeries and wouldn't know if the documents presented are valid or not. If I accepted fake ID on an employee unwittingly, should my employer be fined? To my knowledge, there is no database for the purpose of verifying whether or not a SSN that we have presented is a valid number or if it matches the name of the employee.

[Igel]

31. You would not be in trouble.

Your employer would not be fined.

They'd have to prove that you wittingly accepted a fake ID--and, given the presumption of innocence, that's not often done, to be honest.

It's why the * administration's asked the SSA to use their database to identify discrepancies, give employers 90 days to reconcile them, or fire the employee whose name/info/SSN doesn't match what the SSA has on file. (To which worker and immigration advocates immediately filed a law suit, and got a judge whose pro bono work notably included lots of immigration advocacy work to immediately squash the proposal until he decides the case.)

Which means when those that want to enforce the employer-side provisions try, they're not supposed to.

[Marrah_G]

2. I agree

Unless the employers nothing will change. Even if we make everyone here already legal their jobs will be quickly be replaced by more illegal workers.

Most who employ illegals like having employees who cannot complain and make them comply with wage and labor laws.

My view is stop the employers, fine the shit out of them. Close them down. Secure the boarders more then they are. And then let everyone without a felony on their record apply for legal residency.

Illegal employers destroy good jobs and safe work places and they take advantage of desperate people.

Edit to add: They also need to put a system in place to combat fraud and identity theft.

[woodsprite]

7. You don't really want to talk to anyone from northern DE right

now about illegals or the driver's license issue either. There was a horrible accident where 4 drunk teenage illegals were driving a borrowed BMW, got in an accident and killed a security guard. One made it out of the wreckage, but is in bad shape in the hospital. You should see the flames going back/forth on the local newspaper comments section. People are taking up a collection to have the boys bodies flown back to Mexico and pay for burial and people are livid about that too, because nobody is doing anything for the security guard's family.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. And that is wher the argument of having these people able to get

a drivers licence makes sense... drivers licence equals insurance.

We get into other issues such as under insurance or lack of an abilty to pay for one... but that also applies to legal workers and US citizens

[Lance_Boyle]

11. Driver's license equals insurance?

On what planet? These are TWO THINGS you must have to drive legally. Having one of them does not mean you have the other, also. And given that insurance is COSTLY, I'd imagine that by giving illegal aliens licenses, we'll end up with exactly the same number of uninsured drivers we have now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. In california, you cannot apply for insurance wihtout a drivers licence

at least not as a primary

But if you do not have a DL you cannot apply for insurance

Now having the DL does not guarantee you will go get insurance, but that is why the argument is made

I hope this clears this for you

[Lance_Boyle]

20. I understand well.

Get the license, become eligible to buy the insurance. So we grant step one. How many people WHO ARE WILLINGLY BREAKING THE LAW IS IT STANDS NOW are going to move on to step two?

Now, if this was REVERSED, and you could not apply for a license without proof of insurance, that might be something. But providing licenses to illegal aliens with the hope that it will motivate them to purchase insurance is, erm... not a good idea.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. self delete

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. But I just provided you the argument

now how about them employers who are BREAKING the law by hiring them?

Are we going to start fining them to the full extent of the law?

By the way, that will solve your problem. Why? No jobs, no ilegals, they will stay home

[Lance_Boyle]

30. Very much agreed. I have posted about busting the employers

in many of the illegal immigration threads. The current structure allows for fines of up to $10K per violation, if I'm not mistaken. That doesn't even need to be stiffened. It just needs to be applied, and vigorously. Where you and I diverge on the issue is in the follow-up. If I recall your position correctly, it is that coming down hard on the employers will result in the job market for illegal labor drying up, and this will cause those in this country illegally to leave. I think inertia would be a problem. My position is that a portion of the fine (which really ought to be $10K per violation, every time) ought to pay deportation expenses for the illegal laborer. After all, you don't give a pass to the person who commits the lesser crime just because someone else commits a greater crime. Unless maybe s/he's a snitch. I could maybe get behind amnesty for illegal workers who rat out their illegal employers.

[mitchtv]

32. the larger share of the Hit and Runs in Ca

are from illegals

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. We could always stop illegal immigration by just opening the borders.

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Under NAFTA techically they were

don't hear any lawyer making that argument, but them pesky side agreements have rarely been enforced

[Whisp]

6. if mega corps have no borders, neither should people.

pay up time for the ignorant bliss.
There is Enough for all of us, if fair distribution is into play at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Two proglems

1.- the nation state is not dead YET

2.- What corps rely on is cheap labor... and why they want to get rid of all physical borders. They want YOUR labor for subsistence level only

And I am not sure whether the planet has the carrying capacity for eight billion people

[Whisp]

10. that certainly is the program.

maximize profits and have ALL workers be in the Fourth world.

I fear so much for our children - all of our children around the world. What a crappy place we leave for them.

:crying:

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Well we have little time to fight back

But it is also time to stop blaming the victims for this and call a spade a spade

We have an ilegal employer problem

[baseballhead]

16. Yep

I agree

[EFerrari]

21. Welcome to DU, baseballhead.

:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[Whisp]

17. but those 'employers' are blessed by an illegal signing statement guy.

I really can't see how this can be resolved when Corp is the owner of so much, especially propaganda - owing our soul to the company store.

Some people say a man is made out of mud well a poor man's made outta
muscle and blood..Muscle and blood and skin and bone..and a mind
that's weak..but a back thats strong.
<2vs>
And he was born one morning when the sun didn't shine..
He picked up his shovel and he went to the mines
He loaded 16 tons of that number 9 coal..Til-
the Straw boss said Well-uh b-less my soul!

You load 16 tons and whaddaya get??
another day older and deeper in dept
Saint Peter don'tcha call me 'Cause-
I can't go...I owe my soul to the Company
Store
<3vs>
So if you see him coming..you better step aside,-
Alot of men didn't and alot of men died.
He's got one fist of iron, and the other of
steel..And if the right one doesn't get you..
Then the night one will...

[underpants]

13. IF they become legal they can organize

They havne't been conditioned like most of Americans over the last 30 years to not see labor organization as an option. Don't forget that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I don't forget that

in fact, all spikes in organizing come when we have spikes in legal immigration

[underpants]

18. that is an excellent point

:patriot:

[EFerrari]

19. No, what we have is a f#cked up Latin America policy.

You see, it's not in the corporate interest to promote democracy or social justice in Latin America. So, the people there first get screwed, then they get blamed for going wherever they can to find work.

9 of 10 of my undocumented friends hate being here. (And, yes, I have that many, so come get me, ICE assholes.)

My family came here from El Salvador legally. It took years, about ten, and the family was apart for all that time. But, coming here was their choice, not something shoved on them by poverty inflicted by American corporate interests.

I worked on my mom's ranch for a couple of years. Two of her workman were undocumented. In their off time, they spent time filling my ear with how much they missed their family and their home. The bricks of their home and how they had started a garden and couldn't tend it to go north to all this hatred and how much they wished they could just go back. They were missing their kids growing up. They missed their wives and fell horrible sleeping with other women. They missed their aging parents and felt awful that they couldn't check in on them. They were in a no winner: felt bad to stay home, felt bad to come here.

That's the reality of most undocumented workers.

I don't think most US citizens understand that most of these workers aren't here for the Burger King and Leno monologues. They aren't here for some "American Dream". They're here to work, to live as cheaply as possible and to dream of going home someday.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. I hate to point this to you but not all ilegal aliens are from Latin America

the ones who are from Latin countries are here due to a fucked up policy... but not all are from latin america



And I will stand by what I said... if we are goign to solve the problem internally we need to enforce the laws regarding corporations... yep Walmart should have been fined to the full extent of the law for locking in those what was it? twenty Ukranian Ilegal Aliens? And if they do that again, they should have had that facility confiscated.

Externally, this Empire is on its way out the historical stage... in another age we would have had destroyed the two emerging demcoracies in South America by now...

[EFerrari]

27. Yes, we need laws regulating corporations.

Like the ones that fight labor rights in China and Burma and India. Of course.

But I was addressing the situation in Latin America because those workers are our current scapegoats for a situation that is mostly out of their control. I don't see any towns passing ordinances against Ukranians -- yet. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. They are white

and mostly speak English

yes I am that cynical

[EFerrari]

29. I don't think that's cynicism. That's just where we are.

The GOP hasn't spent decades fanning hatred against Ukranians. :shrug: