How heavily subsidized is automobile usage in this country?

[taterguy]

This post is inspired by laziness, not a desire to provoke flames. I know that automobile usage is subsidized, I just don't know how much. Are there any sites that provide this information?

I'd like as much factual information as possible before forming judgments and opinions on transportation issues.

It seems quite complicated. Just in my small city the difference between taxes that only apply to automobiles and expenses related to automobiles is a few million dollars.

Do any sites go to the trouble of analyzing all the government budgets in this country and gleaning the essential details?

How much money are we talking about?

Can anyone help me out?

[TomInTib]

1. And then factor in taxpayer dollars spent protecting ME Oil. nt

[taterguy]

18. I thought we were only in the Middle East to protect freedom

:sarcasm:

[western mass]

21. Current price of "freedom": $76 / barrel

[taterguy]

22. When freedom's for sale it's not free

Or something like that

[LosinIt]

2. I don't understand your question.

What do you mean automobile use is subsidized? Do you mean the upkeep of highways, etc? Other than that I can't keep of any other way.

Do you think that people shouldn't use automobiles? I think that would be great, but outside of cities of any size there is no mass transit, so we are forced to use the personal car. I'd attempt a bike, but a 60 mile round trip in the snow in January's below zero temps is a bit much for this old lady.

[taterguy]

6. I'd just like to know how much the government spends promoting automobile usage

Take the amount of money the government spends on things related to people driving around in cars.

Subtract from that the amount of money the government collects on fees and taxes that only motorists pay.

Then you have a number.

It's simple. The tricky thing is that budgets are so convoluted that it's difficult to figure out what the number is. That's why I asked the question.

I'm not making any judgments about how people should get around, just asking about how much it costs.

[SoCalDem]

9. Whether they "promote" it or not , it's a fact of life

MOST people can no longer afford to live near their jobs, and as suburbs spring up farther and farther away from the "business/industrial" areas where the jobs are, there is no solution except driving.

Except for a few rare places, there is not real public alternative to driving..

Younger communities must somehow spend for new schools, roads, services.. and as soon as the "necessities" move to the housing, people just keep moving farther out.. and so it goes...

[taterguy]

10. Valid points but that doesn't but that doesn't answer my question in any way shape or form

It seems to me that basic facts should be the foundation for any discussion on transportation issues. Maybe I should get off my ass and do some research on my own.

Sigh. I was really hoping someone here had already done the work for me.

[SoCalDem]

13. You answered your own question

:P

[taterguy]

15. Here's a way that automobile usage is subsidized

My city government employs about 2,000 people. They all get free parking places. Employees who choose not to drive to work don't get a substitute benefit instead of a parking place. Let's be conservative and say it costs the city 100 bucks a year to build and maintain a parking place for each of its employees. That comes to $200,000 per year. It all adds up especially when you consider how widespread the practice of providing free parking for employees is.

[DCKit]

3. The European countries tax gasoline AND personal vehicles heavily...

To fund better public transportation.

Americans have been driving for a pittance.

[Telly Savalas]

4. I don't have an answer

but the matter is complicated by the fact that the same subsidization for automobile usage also supports the trucks that deliver food and other necessary goods to stores.

It's an interesting question, though.

[taterguy]

8. I think it's fascinating that no one seems to have an answer

There are a lot of very smart people on this site but no one can come up with an answer about a very basic issue, an issue that effects our lives every day.

[cloudbase]

5. I don't see much of a subsidy.

Roads are paid for from gasoline taxes, auto registration fees, bonds and general tax revenue, which is fine, since everybody benefits to some degree from our highway system. Interest paid on car loans is no longer a deduction. The state gets a cut of the annual inspection fee. There are plenty of toll roads (especially in Delaware :P).

It's of course not as simple as that. It might be better to say that there is some subsidy in the aggregate, but not so much on an individual level.

[taterguy]

7. I'd just like to know how much general tax revenue we're talking about

Is that too much to ask?

[Mr Rabble]

11. Thom Hartmann has spoken about such an analysis.

More specifically, he has discussed analysis of the true cost of fuel.

After taking into account most if not all of the possible subsidies heaped on the oil industry, the "real" cost to the american taxpayer is roughly $30 a gallon.

$30 a gallon.

This analysis does not account for roads and such.

The fact remains that the current landscape of the US has been manufactured as a large part of a massive social engineering project begun in the 1920's. This "way of life" was foisted on us by a combination of business interests including the PR, auto, and oil industries.

It has not been good for society.

I think you are bringing up an excellent point here. Not only are these facts not readily available to the very smart posters here, but there is almost an inability to comprehend what you are even suggesting.

What does that say about us?

[taterguy]

12. I should have hidden my question in a thread about a stupid TV show

The last time I started one of those it got 5,000 views and 200 replies in 24 hours.

Guess we'd rather talk about TV than the economics of transportation.

Thanks for the tip about Thom Hartmann. I'm not familiar with his work and I'll have to look him up.

[bunkerbuster1]

14. Hartmann's a guy you should know.

Took over Franken's noon-3pm EST slot on AAR. Written 19 books.

He visited Peter B. Collins a few days back:

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/SANFRANCISCO-CA/KQKE-AM/peter%2010-29%20hour%202.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=SANFRANCISCO-CA&NG_FORMAT=progressivetalk&SITE_ID=679&STATION_ID=KQKE-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=Green_960&PCAST_CAT=Podcasts&PCAST_TITLE=Green_960_-_Peter_B_Collins

Anyway, I find the topic fascinating, and would like to learn more myself about how the almighty Auto has been subsidized over the years. I hope more such threads appear.

[Mr Rabble]

16. Yeah, that sounds about right.

Keep in mind that this is a forum for discussing Democratic party issues.

What you are talking about is questioning the very system. In this context, your question may as well be written in Chinese. Look at the responses.

Like everything else about our lifestyle in the US, the oil industry relies heavily on subsidy from the government.

[taterguy]

17. Too bad it's too late for me to edit my header

It's also too bad that it's Friday and I'm in mood to add anything substantial to this discussion.

Maybe someone else will get the ball rolling.

[Mr Rabble]

19. Dont hold your breath.

As you point out, there is virtually no appetite here for historical reference.

A clear exception to this is the Propaganda thread on the Greatest page right now. However, that is the exception.

Just imagine the irony- a thread describing how we have been put into a trance going ignored.

Now, getting back to your OP:

What could be called the "Suburban Project" is the origin of our current automobile culture, and the fuel that runs it.

It began early in the 20th century, largely as a way to get rid of all of the surplus oil. Also, the emergence of the automobile as a production reality, and the economic activity that it spurred drove associated businesses like Standard Oil, and GM to start influencing public policy toward creating an automobile dependent America.

This continued without a break until WW2, and then resumed immediately after. Eisenhower's "Highway Bill" was yet another massive subsidy to private business power to further suburbanize the US.

You can read all of this in the public domain. Google "Standard Oil" + railroad to read about their conspiracy with GM to buy all of the light rail in the Western US so they could destroy it.

[taterguy]

20. I honestly thought someone would have some links that might answer my question

Oh well. I guess it wouldn't kill me to ride my bike to the library

One more thing. Eight replies in about an hour to this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2197971&mesg_id=2197994

:wtf:

[taterguy]

23. One last gratuitous kick