A historical question: Did the RW nutjobs hate the Russians

[EFerrari]

as much as they seem to hate Muslims or "illegal aliens"?

I remember frothing at the mouth over Communism, but it wasn't so personal. Is that a fake memory (aka, the "good old days" kind of idealization)?

Does anyone remember?

/oops

[Turbineguy]

1. They probably did

but they weren't mainstream. They were the Lunatic Fringe.

[EFerrari]

7. Which is why "Here Come the Russians" could be a comedy?

Okay.

[defendandprotect]

2. Overthrow of Royalty . . ..

Still stings --
forced them to morph into another form -- capitalist/corporates

Hard to believe that we still have the Royals in Great Britain -- !!!!

[Warpy]

3. Yes, they did.

The average right wing nutjob will obligingly hate anyone he is given permission to hate.

That's why hate radio is so dangerous.

[EFerrari]

8. I agree about hate radio. Rwanda.

But, did people HATE the Russian people with the same fierceness that WJ callers spit into their handsets when they call in about illeeeegals or those Muzlims?

[Warpy]

25. You had to know people who were RW suckers back then

because they weren't allowed to spit their hate at us through the public airwaves. In fact, up until the mid 90s, you pretty much had to have a short wave receiver to hear the poison.

However, it was there. Archie Bunkers were all over the place and they hated commies with a purple faced passion, even though they really didn't know quite what a commie was.

McCarthy's witch hunt would never have gotten as far as it did without their permission.

[EFerrari]

29. And I didn't know any. We lived in an Irish Catholic hood

and everyone we knew were Democrats.

Hatred must depend upon ignorance. Oops, we know that already. :)

[sweetpotato]

4. Evil Empire

I believe that's what Reagan called the Soviet Union.

I grew up in a Republican household during the cold war, and I was taught that the "Commies" (Soviets) were really, really, horrible. The reasons that they were so bad included spying on their own people, imperialist wars, sending people off to be tortured, the people couldn't worship as they chose, the people couldn't work at whatever job they wanted - they were told what they were going to be "when they grew up" by the government, etc, etc, etc.

The commies were going to blow us off the face of the earth any day and the best we could hope for would be to wipe them off of it, too.

I was too late for the "duck and cover" drills, by the time I came along, the bombs were bad enough that there was no plan for what we school children would do in the event of a bomb, except die.

[EFerrari]

9. I was taught (early 60s) that the Russian people were victims

of their government BUT that dirty commies here in this country would enslave US, too, if we let them.

That's different, I think.

Today, the RW hates huge groups of people where in my girlhood, they only seemed to hate a few guys that were out to do our democracy in. I'm not saying this very well.

[Basileus Basileon]

14. I think you're saying it very well. Don't put yourself down.

There is a clear difference in the fear tactics used now and in the 60s. Back then, the enemy was a spreading system of totalitarian government, and we were ostensibly fighting for the freedom of all mankind. Now, the enemy is a popular (and by that I refer to its organization and not its near-negligible numbers of support) movement in the Middle East, and we are ostensibly fighting for no more than our own safety from the threat of cave-dwelling jihadists--and because of this, they've broadened the scope of their fear and hatred from "Those who spread Communist government are bad" to "Muslims are bad."

[EFerrari]

15. That "cave" sure is important to the haters, isn't it?

Gotta given them that, they can tolerate a LOT of dissonance. How can someone be a danger to all major American cities AND live in a cave?

Even the producers of "Batman!" wouldn't go with that one.

[mwb970]

23. Wow, that is *exactly* what I was taught too.

The reasons that they were so bad included spying on their own people, imperialist wars, sending people off to be tortured, the people couldn't worship as they chose, the people couldn't work at whatever job they wanted - they were told what they were going to be "when they grew up" by the government, etc, etc, etc.

What amazes me is the degree to which the bush administration matches the descriptions of the horrible, hated USSR that I was fed as a child. Of course, other aspects of the bush regime remind me of Nazi Germany, or the Confederacy, or even the Tory monarchists of the 18th century - with a dash of al Qaeda thrown in.

[bunkerbuster1]

5. No. Not the Russians.

If you look back at pop-culture stuff like (say) The Russians are coming, Dr. Strangelove, et al, the Russians were human creatures--often lovable, if on the wrong side of the ideological divide.

You'd be hard pressed to find similar characterizations of Muslims in films/TV today.

RWers certainly hated "the Commies" with a passion similar to that found against Muslims today. But I don't think it was directed at all Russian people; I think most RWers didn't really want to incinerate a hundred million Russians.

They really do want to turn the Middle east, as they are fond of saying, "to glass." They really do think it's a good idea to kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

[EFerrari]

10. Thanks. That's sort of how I remember it.

But, wanted to check to see what other people remembered / thought.

[mwb970]

26. Even as a child, I couldn't really hate the Russians.

I saw a picture of a bunch of Russians once and they looked exactly like us. Somehow, I realized then that we would never go to war with them.

I'm not sure what to think now.

[EFerrari]

31. That's what I remember, too.

We were told, over and over, that they were miserable. That they didn't have enough to eat and that they had no hope of betterment. We were told they were victims.

That's really different from what the American public is being told about "Islamo Fascists" or "illegal aliens" today (and notice, those two groups often get morphed into the same hatred).

[unpossibles]

30. exactly

honestly, the RW nutjobs hated the Middle East back then too. I remember all the Ayatollah Asshola shirts and similar crap from the 1970's. Wasn't around before then, so can't say but it seemed it was more of a general anti-Communist thing. Then again, I suppose their is a parallel - the RWers don't always proclaim to hate ALL Iranians, just the Muslim ones, etc., so I suppose there are parallels too.

I too think that what passes for media now has made this problem far worse.

[kestrel91316]

6. Yeah. And now that communism is essentially dead, they have transferred

some of that frothing-at-the-mouth hatred to us liberals.

Fascists always have to have their enemies to whip up hatred against. They are LOST without enemies.

[EFerrari]

11. Agreed. The (dangerous) difference seems to be

when I was growing up, they hated Communists, not a whole nation. In other words, working people in another country weren't fair game as they are today.

They've generalized the hatred and that's very, very dangerous, imho.

[Basileus Basileon]

12. Nope. And you can see in there the crucial difference.

The popular belief in the Cold War was that Communism was an oppressive, totalitarian force that first tricked people, then overthrew their government, instilled a terrible dictatorship, and then bled their countries white. We didn't hate the East Germans--they were good people who needed liberation. Same with the Russians, and same with most every Communist nation (China perhaps excepted; partially on the basis of their race, and partially on the basis of the "popular" approach of Maoism).

Fundamentalist Islam, on the other hand, is more of a mass movement, in which it's the common man who poses "a danger," and often it's his government acting friendly towards the west. When there's no clear break between the white-hat Muslim and the black-hat Muslim, it's easy for the common hawk to believe that Muslims in general are the problem.

[EFerrari]

13. That's it, I think. The object of hatred has been switched

from a few "evil" men to entire populations. If anyone is writing the History of Hatred, that will mark a significant shift and escalation of rightwing nuttery.

[bunkerbuster1]

16. Very well put.

For the reasons you cite, the RWers are decidedly less rational and have far less in common with liberals on this one.

Mainly because we don't really come close to agreeing on what to call "the enemy." During the Cold War it was Communism; most liberals had no issue with that.

But this Warren Terra, it's "Islamo-Fascism" (I still chuckle when I type that) to them; it's Violent Religious Extremism (usually) to us.

[EFerrari]

19. And in reality, it's BushCo's War on Terra with our own "religious" extremists

leading the way.

I had such a different expectation of 2007 when I was 19. :shrug:

[NOLALady]

17. I seem to remember a "joke" during the cold war days

about who would they let treat them if in an accident on the street, a Russian Doctor or a Black Doctor. Guess who most of them chose.
I don't think they hated Russians as much as they hated some Americans.

[EFerrari]

18. That hasn't changed, has it, NOLALady?

Some American traditions are enduring.

[flashl]

21. Thanks for saying it. n/t

[Beausoleil]

20. No, they were white people

and Christians whose government forced them to be atheists.

The anti-muslim sentiment is mostly racist xenophobia.

The Russians were just misguided captives of their evil, godless government; Muslims are just plain evil. And brown. And they have a different god.

[EFerrari]

22. Brown blasphemers.

Got it. That's right.

[H2O Man]

27. That is the

reason why there was a different approach to the USSR and to China.

[EFerrari]

28. Why do you include China, H2O Man?

In view of all those "yellow peril" memes? I'm just trying to understand. They are "heathens". Are they considered "white" by the haters?

[H2O Man]

35. It's interesting to

consider the relationship between the USA, USSR, and China, during the era that you mention. Briefly, one would expect the two with the same economic and political ideology to be united against the USA. But that was not the case for most of the Cold War era. In part, it was due to some territory between the two. But far more, it had to do with "race"/ethnic identity. The Soviet Union was huge, and had a large number of ethnic groups and sub-groups within it. But the nucleus was what people consider(ed) "white."

Likewise, China is a large place, with various sub-groups within it. But it had an identity that was largely shared within, and was certainly what most US citizens thought of as "Chinese."

After a period of some cooperation, based on mutual self-interests, there was a Soviet-Chinese split. (The split, of course, was reflected in the differences between Fidel/USSR and Che/China.) The US had an official policy for years which was based on pretending that mainland China wasn't there, and that a small island was "China." Unofficially, of course, US industry had relations with industry in the USSR.

I'm old and tired, so please excuse me for an unfocused ramble! But it's a topic worth looking at. Closely.

[EFerrari]

36. Thank you. I didn't know about the Fidel/Che USSR/China split.

That's fascinating all by itself.

I do remember "Gracefully surrender the things of youth, clean air, Taiwan" as spoofed by National Lampoon on "Radio TV Dinners". :)

I think, at bottom, the topics I've been asking about today have to do with reaction formation such that the RW in this country is operating in a subculture that has old, deep roots but at the same time, that can be mobilized to forward their values and their political agenda. Cf Democrats and progressives, who are still attempting to address the culture at large -- with a diluted effect.

I'm old and tired, too, lol and I don't know if that makes sense.

On edit: And, as I mentioned last weekend or so, this is why I'm looking into Blackwater as an expression of that culture.

[librechik]

24. oh my goodness yes.

why this country wouldn't even be visible if it weren't for the red racist rage that motivates so much of it.

Russkies! if you can't hate a real one, hate a Hippy instead! they're just the same!

[Javaman]

32. I think the hatred was slanted toward their form of government...

not the people necessarily.

It's a complex question that has it's roots back to WWII, when they were our allies.

The communist scares of the late 40's and 1950's fed into the mentality of "better dead than red", however oddly enough we did send them grain shipments for a long while at the beginning of the cold war.

It wasn't until the rampant anti-communism, black listing and red witch hunts of the 1950's that really turned the tide of a mildly confused American public against the soviets.

Prior to that, there was a certain ambivalence toward it since so many people in the US were members of the "friends of the Soviets" groups in the 30's and 40's. Many people also fought in the Abe Lincoln brigade to stop the threat of Fascism in Spain. And also, many many people were either members or passing members of various communist societies during the depression (probably the only time in our history that there was an active communist party with clout of some sort of measure).

All of these associations would come back to haunt people years later during the famous (and very shameful)McCarthy communist hunt.

so to cap off my long winded reply, Soviet people good, Soviet government bad.

[JackRiddler]

33. They didn't hate Russians so much, but "communists"

which meant anyone: leftists, hippies, liberals, blacks, Latinos, professors, "eggheads" - all could qualify, mainly as corrupt and naive fellow travelers to the World Communist Conspiracy, and it was a lot like today including a slightly less pronounced hatred of Arabs, who at the time were seen as allies of the Commies and secular-nationalist terrorists, but "animals" just the same.

[Karenina]

34. Just thinking about popular references...

Most easily brought to mind are Bluto/Brutus characterizations of the villainous Sheik of Ay-ra-bie, beaten to a pulp by Popeye - high on spinach. :patriot:

Then there were the evil, bumbling, yet lovable Boris and Natasha on Rocky and Bullwinkle. :rofl:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. I think the difference was that any Eastern Europeans or Chinese or Cubans

who happened to be in the U.S. were assumed to anti-Communist (which they often were).

It wouldn't do to treat somebody who survived a Stalinist labor camp as part of "the enemy." On the contrary, you could put such a person on the lecture circuit and have him help you convince other people of "the Communist menace."

However, with their typical paranoia, right wingers assume that all Muslim immigrants are a "fifth column" forming "sleeper cells" that will one day rise up and impose "Islamo-Fascism" on this country. Since Muslims typically do not renounce Islam, there are few apostates for the lecture circuit.

[Igel]

38. "Russians", sure.

But while they looked at "Russians" in general with a bit of suspicion, it wasn't Russians per se that they hated: It was communist Russians. There was a bit of over-generalization, to be sure, but the average RWer when confronted with a Russian that was obviously anti-Soviet had no trouble making the distinction, as long as they believed that the Russian's disaffection from communism was genuine.

For some of the bleed-over from communist to Russian, note that I was accused of studying a "communist" language when I learned Russian. Odd, since languages aren't really ideological beasts, and it preexisted Marx by a bit.

When they say "Muslims", remember that you really do get sympathetic views of Muslims in some areas, as long as the Muslims involved show sufficient and convincing disaffection from Salafism and Caliphate-worship (by whatever name the RWers are calling it). While there's bleedover from the triumphalist and supremacist Muslim mindset to the general Muslims, it's mostly suspicion--pretty much in parallel with what happened with Russians. Now, there's no good word that RWers that parallels "commie" (as opposed to Russian), and every time they try to coin one those Muslims to whom it doesn't apply make the assertion that it must apply to them as well, and therefore it's racist. "Islamist" has come under fire, even though it's about as standard as you can get--and still includes a number of strains, some bad, some virulent.

This isn't always the case--there were those that failed to make the distinction, but they were far fewer than you'd think from a quick and hostile reading of what they said and wrote. Same for a lot of RWers talking about "Muslims". Context, intonation, attitude are key, at least if you want to understand what's being said and the relevant distinctions being made.

As an aside, I'd note that the "communist language" nonsense from RWers in the '70s is now a *standard* way of referring to Arabic, Persian, etc. "Islamic language" is now a term of art espoused by many Muslims who study or work in those languages: U Chicago, U Penn, Buffalo, etc.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. It combines their hatred of foreigners with their hatred of brown people.

Other than that, it's not much different.