NPR: Non-Lethal Weapon Emits Invisible Rays of Pain

[Moochy]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15739254

The Pentagon's research arm has come up with a weapon that can neutralize an individual — or a crowd — from a distance of more than 500 yards.

It's not intended to kill. It emits an invisible beam of high-energy radio frequency that causes a person to recoil and flee. The weapon has been 12 years in the making, and now it's ready.

NPR's defense correspondent gets zapped by the Active Denial System.

NPR's embedded-military-reporter-guy, Guy Raz asks his pals in the military to "Tase me Bro"

[rox63]

1. Coming soon to an anti-war protest near you...

:scared:

[Moochy]

2. Yeah if Guy Raz can take it...

a few protestors should have no problems...

NPR: Creeping Technofascism Cheerily Served Here

[ljm2002]

3. Coming soon...

...Kevlar body suits with reflective visors to see through.

Well it's a thought.

(on edit) Or, just Kevlar ponchos that can be folded up into a small, light rectangle -- like the cheap rain ponchos you can buy for emergencies.

(on 2nd edit) -- okay Kevlar is not the right stuff. I'm thinking about that very lightweight reflective material that is used for emergency thermal blankets and the like -- as shown here: http://www.cpr-pro.com/thermal.html -- rather than the bulletproof stuff which is what Kevlar is. Oops!

[Richard Steele]

6. Mylar.

If that doesn't work, I'm sure someone will quickly
discover something that does.

Lol, what if it's aluminum foil? Wouldn't THAT be poetic! :rofl:

[ljm2002]

9. I'll bet that anything reflective...

...like Mylar or tin foil, would work.

Anyway: Mylar is cheap, should be easy enough to provide ponchos or just big squares of the stuff for people to shield themselves with.

[Moochy]

18. See 911 forum for appropriate head wear!

:tinfoilhat: Who knew it would be of practical use in protests. :tinfoilhat:

[Trillo]

187. Maybe conductive cloth?

"Stretch Silver Conductive Fabric
$31.95 per lin ft
This medical grade Silver plated 92% Nylon 8% Dorlastan fabric offers the unique ability to stretch in both directions."

http://www.blockemf.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=5090

[kestrel91316]

4. It's not "intended" to kill - but who's to say it can't or won't

"accidentally" do just that?

To use this against peaceful protestors is clearly illegal, just like spraying them directly in the eyes with pepper spray was.

[Richard Steele]

7. If it's "painful" at 500 yards...

...then what will it be like when they start strapping
people to tables and using it from a distance of two feet?

[Basileus Basileon]

31. Equally painful.

It works by exciting water molecules--but the rays are not capable of penetrating very deeply. It feels like you're on fire either way.

[Occulus]

37. What would the effect be

if someone had the fortitude to remain within the scope of the beam?

Would they cook from the outside in?

[Basileus Basileon]

41. After a while?

First-degree burns to the skin. And nobody has yet (to my knowledge) been able to withstand it that long.

Now, this could theoretically be used as a torture device, yes. However, it would be a very unwieldy one, given its size (it's vehicle-mounted) and cost. A bit of electricity or a bit of toxin from a stinging animal would be much more effective.

[Basileus Basileon]

74. EDIT FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION:

In the 9000 people tested, 6 were able to withstand it long enough to cause small burns requiring no medical treatment.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

148. Because you say so, it must be true.

MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

152. Er, no, because the FOIA-released internal testing says so.

Would you like links to the .pdfs?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

156. Sure would. Thanks.

MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

161. Here's a batch of 'em.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/12/72236

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

164. Yet you can't supply the specific file which supports your assertion.

Oh, well. MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

166. Oh, that particular one? Sure.

I thought you just wanted information on the project. If this is just a demand for proof for one particular claim, here:

http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/files/weapon2.pdf (see page 16)

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

169. Can any fellow DU'ers get this file? My firewall won't let it through.

Thanks. MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

172. Here's a screencap of the relevant section.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

176. More questions than answers. Thanks for posting.

MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

45. Yes, to use this against peaceful protesters would be illegal.

No, it could not be used to kill people, unless people are 0.1 mm thick.

[Moochy]

5. Shout out to NPR Check

which pointed me to this audio clip. http://nprcheck.blogspot.com/

And I think that the original subject line could have multiple meanings, as in
NPR (is A) Non-Lethal Weapon that Emits Invisible (but audible) Rays of Pain (with their biased reporting)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. They keep talking about this, but they never show it.

I'm calling it a boondoggle until they actually demonstrate it.

[Richard Steele]

10. Here's a pic:

And a press release from january:
http://www.defenselink.mil/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=2822

[ManiacJoe]

15. Seems like a good reason for civilians to own

.50 cal rifles! :evilgrin:

[Richard Steele]

25. YOUNGER civilians than me.

I'm getting too old to be lugging anything that heavy. :)

[Occulus]

38. If one of these were used on me

and I had any weapon at hand or convenient,

I would try to take out the emitter.

Everyone should own a slingshot.

[Basileus Basileon]

43. Nah.

You'd fall to the ground screaming. Once you were down, your survival instincts would keep you on the ground, because you would be aware that standing up again would result in feeling like you're on fire again. There wouldn't be much room for firing back.

[ManiacJoe]

85. Well, of course, if your tactics are bad enough

that the shooter is standing with the radiation targets.

On the other hand, from a hide off to the side some distance away, one or two well-placed, half-inch holes will quickly shut down the truck. However, this escalation of force does have some less-than-pleasant side effects that need to be accounted for.

[BushOut06]

11. We need to BAN these "torture weapons"

Tasers, "pain guns", and any other devices primarily designed to inflict pain should be banned. They already violate the Geneva Convention - we wouldn't be allowed to use them on a battlefield against enemy combatants. We shouldn't be using them on civilians either.

[Moochy]

12. Agreed

"But it's better than shooting them"

Thats the argument you always hear from techno fascist apologists. About as convincing as "Hey, it's better than a hole in the head"

[Basileus Basileon]

40. Okay. We'll go back to guns and billy clubs, then.

Or we'll just let rioters run around burning shit down. That's nice too.

[Moochy]

53. You are right... society would run much smoother with invisibile pain rays!

Our society would run much smoother with invisible pain-emitting active denial systems installed everywhere.

Big Brother is that you? B.B. ?

[Basileus Basileon]

54. Yes, I can see how

"this is less dangerous than tear gas and rubber bullets" means "I want this on every corner."

[Moochy]

61. no im sure you'd restrict it to just outside free speech zones

[Basileus Basileon]

63. Wrong again.

I'm only in favor of using this after riots have already begun and the only remaining options are more dangerous to human life.

[Moochy]

66. Well Golly Whillikers! Thats much better

I for one can't wait the Utopian Future envisioned by your dark fetid mind.

[Basileus Basileon]

70. Do you believe that riots should not be controlled? nt

[Moochy]

81. No....

Not with invisible pain rays.

Next straw man.

[Basileus Basileon]

82. Okay, so you agree riots should be controlled. Good. Next question:

Do you believe riots should be controlled in the manner least likely to cause permanent harm to humans?

[Moochy]

91. "Straw Man, I just can't quit you!"

More efficient use of energy resources, lower power, enhanced logging to central govt. crime logs.

"Chip" everyone at birth and wire up the output of the chip to your pain receptors.

That way when you are misbehaving the Good Guys(tm) can just ping your chip with RFID, and log your SSN as they send you an instant pain message, along with auditory instructions on how to comply and prepare for processing.

Less room for error. I bet you'd be all over this inherently more efficient and therefore superior application of technology to the general problem of crowd control.

[Basileus Basileon]

94. Answer the question. Do you believe riots should be controlled in the manner

least likely to cause permanent harm to humans?

When your counterargument is so ridiculous that even you admit it's a strawman, I don't really know what else to say, other than, "yep, that's not an appropriate response." ADS does not infringe upon your privacy, and does not grant the government any extra powers or abilities they did not already have. They can already shut down a riot of any size within minutes. The only question is how many accidental deaths and injuries will occur.

[Moochy]

100. badgering the witness your honor

No.
They should be controlled with ... riot police. Wow ! a solution that doesnt fetishize some equation of efficiency and rationalize an evil cruel device. You sicken me.

No wonder you don't fear these rays... thick skull of yours shields you from the pain this weapon would inflict.

Yes I concede that I TOO LOVE INVISIBLE PAIN RAYS!

You win, Invisible Pain Ray Lover.

[Basileus Basileon]

101. So they should be quelled in a manner

you implicitly admit is more likely to injure people. And I'm the one who's a fascist.

[Moochy]

102. I emerged from my brush with the law unscathed

as did another 10,000 or so.

And I apologize for directing the label at you in such a manner, but if it walks like a duck goose....

[Basileus Basileon]

103. As you would have if the police had this device. It's not a weapon

of first resort; it's one of last resort. The police would have told you to move along. They would have demanded you move along. They would have gone in with billy clubs and riot shields. The only point at which they would have used the ADS would be if the protest became a riot and there were no way to safely quell it.

I mean, sure, this has the potential for abuse. But so does tear gas, and police have access to that. The only difference is that ADS works quicker and is less dangerous.

[WinkyDink]

120. Are you speaking of football/basketball fans? Because I didn't see this during the anti-Bush's War

marches.

Except the LATTER are the events this weapon is designed for.

[Basileus Basileon]

153. Er, no. That is uninformed conspiracy-mongering.

It's designed to assist the military, which is not trained in appropriate police tactics, with crowd control in the course of its 'peacekeeping' / occupation duties abroad.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

21. Don't ban them

Lets get our hands on one of these things and point it toward them, or reverse-engineer it and see how it ticks.

[bdamomma]

77. well we have a president who believes in torture huh?

[debbierlus]

13. Blackwater will love this - it will be there weapon of choice - they can replace the guard!

Oh my fucking God

[BrotherBuzz]

14. If they come my way I'm going Don Quixote with a trash can lid.

They still make metal garbage can lids, no?

[tjwash]

16. Phasers on stun.

[blues90]

17. This just shows what sort of a world we now live in

I can't imagine what sort of person it takes to invent weapons such as these or weapons at all .

There is not a weapon made that is not designed to harm or kill and it's always most of the innocent that are affected .

That freak that piloted one of the bombers that struck Japan died and he never felt bad or had regret or lost a nights sleep . What sort of people are these and are they even human or of the human race .

What a sad sorry world with trillions spent on death and wars and sorrow , what a shame and what a waste , I can barely take it anymore .

[riverdeep]

23. Yeah, it is kind of pathetic.

When there's an exciting, new scientific discovery that tells us something more about the nature of our miraculous universe, the first thing these people think about is, "how can I use this to harm, kill or torture?"

[IDemo]

19. I wonder about the effect on eyes, if it causes burning sensations on skin

Mirrored sunglasses may come highly advised along with aluminum foil hats.

[Basileus Basileon]

32. Pain. That's about all.

It doesn't penetrate deeply enough to cause any permanent damage.

[WinkyDink]

121. George, is that you? WATERBOARDING TORTURE: "PAIN. THAT'S ABOUT ALL."

because, you know, PAIN IS NOTHING, when it's someone ELSE'S.

[Basileus Basileon]

124. And rubber bullets don't hurt? nt

[KG]

20. 'Non-Lethal' eh? where have i heard that before?

[backscatter712]

22. Use in enhanced interrogations in 3...2...1...

They'll just strap the detainee in front of the dish, set it to simmer, then go take an hour lunch. Isn't technology wonderful?

[Basileus Basileon]

42. That would be incredibly inefficient. nt

[backscatter712]

48. Ineffiecient, yes, but torture isn't practiced for efficiency.

We've seen it over and over again throughout history - the people who become torturers in repressive regimes do it out of sadism. They'll do something like this and be laughing the whole way.

[riverdeep]

24. How much you want to make a bet

that these weapons, bioweapons, etc., are being tested on our prisoners, sorry, I mean non-enemy combatants, in our secret prisons? Some of them have no documentation or paper trail on their release. They have just 'disappeared'.

[JCMach1]

26. if it is radio, it can be reflected or jammed

[Basileus Basileon]

36. ...what?

No. No, it cannot be "jammed." Light is also made of electromagnetic waves. Light cannot be jammed.

Look, it's a radiation weapon. But it's not radiation in the same sense as you think of it; it can't give you cancer. It's like a microwave. It heats things up--but it can't penetrate very far. So it heats the very very very outmost layer of your skin. You think you're on fire. But in actuality, you're not--they're tricking your nerves. And such a small amount is being heated, once you're no longer being targeted, the pain stops instantly.

[Sugar Smack]

27. Sure. Non-lethal. "Rays of pain" that could easily send someone into shock

and certain death.So touching to see such humanity.

[Basileus Basileon]

33. It's a hell of a lot better than gas or rubber bullets. nt

[Moochy]

34. Better Fascism Through Technology

See post #12...

"Better than a hole in the head."

[Basileus Basileon]

39. Look, the government is always going to quell rioters.

You can either gas them, fire rubber bullets at them, tase them, or ADS them. The first can cause corrosive lung damage. The second can cause instant death. The third, though safer, can cause instant death. The fourth can cause minor injuries as people fall to the ground. Allowing the riot to occur will cause certain death for many and result in massive property damage.

I like ADS more than any other option. I don't see how it's fascism. Any tool can be used for evil ends.

[Moochy]

46. and i find your glee in this alternative ...in character for your (new) persona

Go figure.. extolling the virtues of remote control pain rays on DU.

A kinder gentler pain-causing device for crowd control in Iraq.

Not every "problem" needs a technological torture device as the solution. Let's leave it at. But keep arguing that this is a better alternative to riot shields and batons.. good old fashioned police lines? with native populations?

[Basileus Basileon]

56. Seriously, now, think about that.

First, it isn't a "torture" device. The average person is in pain for under three seconds before their instincts drop them to the ground. They are in no pain the instant they do so.

Riot shields are a good solution. However, that has several problems in regards to Iraq:

1. Inadequate police. In a country where entire cities are only effectively "policed" by teenagers with AK47s, saying, "Oh, we should just form police lines with riot shields" is wishful thinking.

2. Need for rapid response. Most American crowd-control is entirely predictable. You apply for a protest license, and the police show up to make sure everything goes smoothly. In Iraq, not so much.

3. They don't work against an armed populace, and if the crowd begins to get violent (armed or not), conventional methods of dispelling them are going to be one of the following: clubbing them in a melee, shooting them with live ammunition, shooting them with rubber bullets, or gassing them. All of these are more dangerous than a beam that safely and quickly drops them all to the ground.

Obviously getting out of Iraq is the best solution. However, DARPA's goal isn't to get us out of Iraq. They're toolmakers, not policy planners.

Approval of this system is entirely in character for my "persona," whatever that means. I believe in minimizing civilian deaths.

[Moochy]

76. translation

I love invisible pain rays.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

47. Lo and behold, a vigorous defender of this weapon. On DU.

BB, did you take a wrong turn somewhere? :shrug: MKJ

[Moochy]

51. pure contrarianism

Radiating energy weapons are the best! because the right thing to do is to condemn them, let's take the opposite position out of mercurialness.

[Basileus Basileon]

55. What I find truly interesting is that there are no arguments against it.

Simply vague concerns about "fascism." I like this weapon because it will lead to fewer civilian deaths. I don't like civilian deaths. Why is this so shocking and horrifying?

[Moochy]

62. no arguments against it

Nope No arguments against it... Just Making sure the DU community sees you defending this shit.

No arguments against it ... other than that its cruel, pain causing device usable on crowds...

where is your chewy moral center BB?

[Basileus Basileon]

65. Well, right. There's no argument against its use here, either.

Just a bit of moralism about "cruelty." Know what else is cruelty? Innocents who die from rubber bullets. People who suffer head injuries from batons. Asthmatics who are tear-gassed. People who have their homes and businesses burned down by uncontrolled riots.

Know what isn't cruelty? Saving lives and property by exposing a riot to two seconds of pain.

[Moochy]

67. Check one

< > I LOVE INVISIBLE PAIN RAYS!
< > I AM A DEMOCRAT.

[Basileus Basileon]

69. I'll check the second.

I wasn't aware that approval of safer crowd-control technology made me a Republican.

What's wrong about this? It's not like the government doesn't already have a complete monopoly of force. They can already instantly put down any riot they want to. This just lets them do it without causing deaths.

[Moochy]

75. Darn and I thought No invisible Pain rays was

a safe enough thing to be a party plank.

Go figure.

Do you own stock in GE Microwave division? :P

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

86. You sure do love you some crowd control. Freedom of Assembly is not high on your list.

I'll bet you get giddy when those pesky protestors get "contained".

MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

95. Crowd control is necessary for freedom of assembly.

The only--only--legitimate counterargument against allowing unrestricted freedom of assembly (which I believe should exist) is that things can rapidly spin out of control and create a full-scale riot. Like it or not, people are only allowed to assemble to the extent that the government can safely control them if they riot--which is why you have to get protest permits, and which is why very large demonstrations are often shut down by police. More effective means of crowd control, so long as they are responsibly used, go hand-in-hand with greater freedom to assemble.

[Moochy]

104. My reaction to your argument

in the form of a short clip from the Original Star Trek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGzDXl1Q27k

[Basileus Basileon]

105. Let's try again.

1. Riots are bad. Government fears riots more than they appreciate protests.
2. If a crowd grows to the size that it theoretically could not be controlled, it is a threat to riot.
3. Any such crowd will be shut down by police. You know this from experience.
4. Increased crowd control abilities increase the control cap on size/passion of a crowd.
5. Increased crowd control abilities increase freedom of assembly.

Counterintuitive, yes. But true.

(Does it tell you anything that while you have such emotional reactions of frustration, the only arguments you're able to marshal to your side are accusations of "evil" and "technofascism?")

[Moochy]

106. Sorry the Orion Slave Girl Just exploded again

I give you a D+ for effort though! :beer:

How a bout I trade you a nice frosty Guinness for that ADS remote control you have there.... step away from the modified humm veee..

[Basileus Basileon]

107. "I cannot comprehend your argument" is not an actual counterargument.

If you need assistance with any of the numbered points, I can explain in further detail.

[Moochy]

108. If you need asssitance with this nonsense press *

I'm done dealing with you, ADS Salesman.

[Basileus Basileon]

109. Sure thing.

I gotta say, though, I have no idea why DARPA made me try to sell it on Democratic Underground. I tried to tell them that there wouldn't be any buyers here, but no, they wouldn't listen.

[Moochy]

110. lol Put that coffee down!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-AXTx4PcKI

Coffee is for closers!!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

116. You're not trying to sell, you're trying to quell

any discussion of this weapon that is not laudatory.

Your agenda is clear, although the catalyst for your enthusiastic embrace of this weapon is known only to you, at the moment. MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

123. Yes, my agenda is clear:

"This will save human lives. Nobody has even attempted to prove otherwise."

[Moochy]

134. Your agenda *is* clear

[Basileus Basileon]

138. So far, your counterarguments to my claim that this

will save lives (especially in places like Iraq, where the military is forced into crowd-control duties, and which is the only place this is yet approved for use in):

1. You're a fascist.
2. You're a technofascist.
3. You're a troll.
4. Pain rays are not Democratic.
5. You're working for GE.
6. You're an authoritarian.
7. I do not understand your argument to the point where I cannot reply.
8. You're a tool.

How about you explain to me how this is going to cost more lives and suffering than current methods of crowd control, especially vis-a-vis the military in Iraq/Afghanistan.

[Moochy]

140. Point by point you win i concede!

Now if I agree its the best, can I see it demonstrated on you?

[Basileus Basileon]

144. Okay, I'll make you a deal.

If I ever happen to come across a public demonstration of this, I'll volunteer to be zapped. I'll even post on DU about how it felt.

[OnyxCollie]

194. Bushco used that same rationale for domestic surveillance.

Nobody has attempted to prove otherwise because cases get tossed on "national security" claims.

ADS can be directed against individuals in a crowd from 500 yards. Don't like the sign that guy's holding? Watch him hit the ground screaming!

You seem to think that hitting the ground will stop the pain. The pain will stop when the guy takes his finger off the button.

Citizens who demand their government back will be considered "rioters."

[Moochy]

117. Does it tell you anything

that you are the only sick depraved individual who is in favor of microwaving protestors?

Sick Fuck

[Basileus Basileon]

125. On Democratic Underground, proud home of

the knee-jerk? Yeah, it tells me that I am so far the only person who has actually read the studies on its effects on human bodies.

Also, I'm not in favor of using it on protesters. I don't know where you got that idea.

[Moochy]

129. In the post where you

said as a last resort you approve using it on protesters.

[Basileus Basileon]

131. Reading comprehension isn't your "thing," is it?

Here's the wording from my "weapon of last resort" post: The only point at which they would have used the ADS would be if the protest became a riot and there were no way to safely quell it.

In this hypothetical, they are not using it on protesters. They are using it on rioters who are not responding to any safe methods of defusing the situation. Again, because you haven't attempted to address the point: there is no difference in usage between this and rubber bullets / tear gas, which the police already have access to. All are used in the exact same situation, and all will quell a riot quickly. The only difference is in safety.

[Moochy]

132. I see

With you authoritarians its all about the definitions isnt it?

Just like "enhanced interrogations" is not "torture".

These "protestors" are now "rioters" as soon as a brick is thrown right?

[Basileus Basileon]

136. This argument has nothing to do with

the line drawn between peaceful assembly and a riot, and when they use their weapons of last resort. That would be an argument you ought take up with your local police force. The argument we are having here is whether or not this is a superior weapon of last resort to current ones.

[Moochy]

137. The fact that you cant even see how its related

is why you are an authoritarian tool.

[Basileus Basileon]

141. SCOREKEEPING CARD:

Moochy, when cornered, throwing out an insult: 8
Moochy, when cornered, offering a counterargument: 0

[Moochy]

143. I'm just complying with the big red computer eye thing

that has a microwave active denial system pointed at me! You call it insults i call it like i see it.
T E C H N O F A S C I S T

I give up! your stick-to-it-ness has won the day!

[OnyxCollie]

195. This was on the program, "Futureweapons."

The military official discussing the weapon said it would be used against protesters. This will be used against American citizens.

The military already has a way of dealing with foreign protesters. It's called artillery.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

112. Ah, slavery is freedom, war is peace, this weapon allows "greater freedom to assemble"

MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

126. A second person unable to even make a stab at

refuting any of my arguments.

[Moochy]

142. You won

Great Success for ADS!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

149. How something designed to inflict unbearable pain from a distance equals more freedom of assembly is

not an equation that works out for me.

You said you love this weapon and will not be dissuaded, nor shall you persuade anyone here of it's benefit to all mankind. MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

151. It is not an equation that works out for you

because you do not understand how police operate, nor (I assume) have you had much experience with protesting in large crowds. Police shut down crowds when they can no longer effectively prevent a riot. Increased ability to prevent rioting increases the size (and passion) of a crowd police can protect/control.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

157. Well, at least now you admit it's designed for protesters.

MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

167. No, I don't. We're clearly talking under the unlikely hypothetical

that it is eventually expanded for police use.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

173. Whatever, welcome back, enjoy your 2nd stay.

:hi: MKJ

[Moochy]

175. 3rd or 4th

[Basileus Basileon]

180. It's kind of ironic

that despite y'alls howls of protests, I've stayed entirely within the DU rules on this thread, and both of you have repeatedly violated them by calling me "troll" and "fascist."

[Moochy]

181. I attribute that with your better understanding of DU rules

Effective disruptors study the rules carefully apparently.

[Basileus Basileon]

Disruptor?

I posted a few well-supported opinions. I've defended them repeatedly and remained civil, despite your repeated attempts to draw me into a mudslinging match. I'm discussing. You're disrupting.

[Moochy]

185. Well supported ? maybe..but vexingly amoral

Remaining civilly disobedient?

I guess I've crossed that line of civility.

Better bust out the active denial system on me!

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

183. I've called you neither. But, when have facts interfered with your opinion?

:shrug: MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

188. Oh, I'm sorry, I must have misinterpreted

I'll bet you get giddy when those pesky protestors get "contained" and Your agenda is clear to be allegations of fascism. And I must have misinterpreted Whatever, welcome back, enjoy your 2nd stay, following another's claims that I was a reincarnation of the famed troll Zandor, to be an endorsement of that idea.

If you have other explanations, I'd love to hear them.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

191. I did not call you a troll nor a fascist.

I have nothing more to say to you. :hi:

MKJ

[Basileus Basileon]

177. This is just pathetic.

My posts do not bear any resemblance to Zandor's. He posted short, inflammatory threads, and had atrocious mechanics. While I admit I have an inordinate fondness for the semicolon and em dash, my writing is at a far higher level. Moreover, Zandor was clearly writing with the persona of a self-righteous centrist/moderate/right-winger. I'm extremely liberal. It's just that when it comes to matters of medicine and science, I reject hyperbole, hand-wringing, and unfounded emotional reactions, and follow the evidence base. If you want to call that "trolling," that says more about how you perceive this community than it does about me.

[Moochy]

182. correct adjective

Your posts are in fact, pathetic in this thread. Beyond what I see here, I wont make sweeping generalizations.

[Basileus Basileon]

184. And so you've slowly devolved from

legitimate counterarguments, to implications that I only hold my viewpoints because of fascist desires, to outright declarations I am a fascist, to sarcastic (yet empty) declarations of loss, to declarations I'm a troll, and now we're at "I know you are but what am I" level.

I predict that within another dozen posts, your rebuttals will have further juvenilized to that of an infant's piercing wail, your fists clenched in anger, your eyes squeezing out tears of frustration.

I don't believe in using ignore lists; you might well have something worthwhile to say later. But I'm done with you in this thread. You're not interested in meeting me halfway in a rational discussion, and you never were.

[Moochy]

186. project much? you brave brave supporter of invisible pain rays?

Regarding my sad descent into incoherence in the face of your gleeming, brilliant self-evident treatise in defense of techno-fascist crowd-control device, may I suggest a slogan for your end-zone dance?

"Mission accomplished"

[Moochy]

93. A Riot Cop threatens to hit you the protestor with a baton

And you comply with his orders to leave the area... without him actually striking you, and inflicting no pain on you, wouldn't that be the best possible outcome in a bad situation?

Thats what the Berkeley and UC Police did to us when we threatened to shut down Interstate 80 with our merry band of 10,000 protesters at the save KPFA marches back in 98/99. There are times when the "Good Guys(tm)" just need to clear the streets. There are ways to do it without resorting to techno-fascist pain emitting devices. Incidentally we can field test the system on a client-state's protesters, and there it can be sold as a better choice than just gunning down everyone. "Hey its better than Blackwater murdering all of them right?"

Yeah thanks for the false choice, bub.

[Basileus Basileon]

96. Yes, and in those cases the device would not be activated.

This would be a tool of last resort for obvious reasons.

[seabeyond]

111. just like they told us the taser was "a tool of last resort for obvious reasons"

instead, they pull it out for the most expedient and easiest, less troublesome and time consuming reason. a drop of the hat results in taser. so no.... i dont believe at all that it would be used as the last resort. obvious or hidden reasons. that is what happens when we are lied to in the past (or at least what i would hope happens though so many fools seem to overlook it) we dont trust our cops to follow thru in the future.

[Basileus Basileon]

128. It is. Some cops abuse it.

The decision to use a enormous Humvee-mounted device to dispel a crowd that is not responding to traditional tactics is a completely different paradigm from the snap life-or-death decision to use a taser.

[seabeyond]

146. "It is. Some cops abuse it."... ONE abuse resulting in death is TOO much

why dont you people get it. ONE abuse.... is too much. period. and there is way more than one abuse. this is another thing the fearful go around doing, they minimize a real problem by reducing it to an insignificant, some abuse it. will if some are abusing it, then it needs to be addressed, NOW. instead of looking the other way. which allows the abuse to grow. as we are seeing with the taser

shame. and these are the people advocating being christian. shame. and these are the people advocating the use of the taser being more humane to people. just simply shame.

as far as installed on a huge ass humvee. over the last couple years i have watched video of demonstrations where cops SAY they are just stopping riots and clearly the video shows cops are simply illegally assaulting american citizens who have the right to peacefully demonstrate. yet the cops clumsily blame the crowd while video absolutely shows the crowd did nothing wrong. already, without this micro zapper we see the cops cannot be trusted to use the zapper for only the "rioting" crowds. the cops are the abusers, not the crowds.

i believe in law and order. yet when the cops are no longer required to follow law or be of order, then all is lost. and when people like you shrug a shoulder, turn your head, or allow a blind eye to the cops abuse, you are the problem, the greatest problem, beyond the very abusive cop

[Basileus Basileon]

150. Your fundamental problem is that you believe I excuse abuses of power.

I don't. Whenever tasers are misused, the cops ought be investigated and punished severely. I also believe that all police-civilian interactions should be videotaped in order to prevent such abuses.

Tasers are not evil. Some cops are. And those cops will abuse clubs, pistol butts, or whatever they have available. The solution isn't to remove tasers; the solution is greater police accountability.

The problem is that nobody is willing to take the middle ground between "all cops are evil" and "all cops are saints." Whenever I talk about law enforcement, people seem to believe I hold the opposite position they do.

[Moochy]

154. More useless exaggerations

"nobody is willing to take the middle ground between "all cops are evil""

[seabeyond]

158. here i am seeing the problem is with taser, people think it is less than a joke

the people are not holding the cops accountable for the use. the people are allowing the abuse of the taser. the people are not taking it seriously when the taser a 14 yr old trick or treating, or a child in a elementary school or a woman who doesnt want to get out of her car cause she is in jammies and slippers and it is a speeding ticket after all and instead of a cop being reasonable, they use the taser to control, intimidate, instill fear, and people shrug and say, didnt comply with the cop. and that is all it takes to use a taser is not complying with a cop. our cops have lost there way, and are being allowed to do so more and more. i blame it on their higher ups, i blame it on our society, i blame it on our last handful of years that preceive all of us as aminals and criminals, ergo how the police see and treat us, i blame it on the tough job the cops have and all the ugliness.... blame is all over the place. a hard problem to solve, but not addressing it seriously, it is going to escalate as we see today

i have said in other threads,.... if i feel threatened of a taser because i dare to be angry ... simple because i am angry, not cause i am resisting, but because i dare to speak out if a police is doing something i think not right, because i am not intimidate, because i dont submit.... and the taser is a threat, there is a problem. a cop did a u turn in the middle of a street with double lines in a school zone with cars coming and going in different direction and children. very unsafe. my window was down and i said to the cop, hey that is illegal. not yelled, not angry, but by god he would give a ticket to any person doing it, yet he is allowed. i dont agree with that. i didnt keep my mouth shut.

my kids were afraid. they were afraid the cop was going to come and get me.

do we really want our kids to see the cops like this

my concern is what i see developing and the world my kids will live in with the cops, and i am not seeing a pretty picture

i dont want to be mad at the cops. i want to respect them. i want to support them. i want to teach my children to also. and i cant. that is what is so sad. a decade ago i did. i dont anymore.

[seabeyond]

147. this is your some cops abuse it. do you turn a blind eye to this too.

it makes you more of the problem if you ignore this than the cop who committed the act. this man had NO other recourse than zap the girl? pathetic.

when a 46 year old middle class, law abiding female look at cops with disgust, the cops are really in trouble. and the people in your crowd that allow cops to get away with this, creating an environment of abuse that teaches this 46 year old law abiding, middle income women to turn on cops and not support them YOU and yours are the ones that will be the undoing of law and order. and the stupid dont get it. universal law. gonna happen. an obvious. but in your struggle for order, out of unreasonable fear and cowardliness, you are creating the very atmosphere of chaos.

how blind can you be.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2197971

[seabeyond]

87. they dont leave a mark. there is no proof of abuse.

even if a person summits, the pain can still continue without the responsible party stopping it.... endlessly, torturesly. who are we going to trust in telling us what the damage it is to a person? they can use it to control the most peaceful demonstration only cause they dont want dissension.

it is a tool ripe for abuse without any evidence for repercussion of abuse

[Moochy]

88. a more efficient way:

"Chip" everyone at birth and wire up the output of the chip to your pain receptors.

That way when you are misbehaving the Good Guys(tm) can just ping your chip with RFID, and log your SSN as they send you an instant pain message, along with auditory instructions on how to comply and prepare for processing.

Less room for error. I bet BB would be all over this more efficient application of technology to the general problem of crowd control.

[seabeyond]

89. and the fooooools that cant see. because they are so blind out of fear

and cowardness we have progressed to the point we are now at. tasering at will, though much more humane cause they dont kill and not big deal pain. we know what a pile of shit lie that is. now we want them to have more secrecy in their abuse of us and a never ending ability to keep us in pain, total intimidation. lets all just keep eyes on ground and tail between legs

we thought the tasers and micro zappers were as sci fi as what you suggest here, just a decade ago. wouldnt be surprised at all that we walk your fictional story. and all those cowards that would be for it because after all....

if you do NOTHING wrong (and i am just not that damn good) then you have nothng to worry about. btw.... if i cuss, if i get mad, frustrated or irritated is that enough for a zap. we just saw on a thread a man held ten hours in an airport dared to get frustrated at being held and was tasered to death.

[Moochy]

90. Well it's ok cuz they are not gonna use it on US citizens

Yet.

< > Empire
< > Democracy

Choose one.

[seabeyond]

99. like i trust that. when i first heard about this, general said MUST use on u.s. citizen

first cause otherwise he just didnt think it would be right to use on other people in other countries. so he absolutely contradicts what you suggest. unless you are getting it from the article. i dont know, didnt read . i read about this micro zapper months? a year ago.

[Basileus Basileon]

97. Well, if you abuse it in that fashion, it will leave burn marks.

Not to mention the whole your-word-against-the-word-of-two-thousand-people business.

[mark414]

130. do you really think this is for street riots?

[Basileus Basileon]

133. Yes. Fevered dreams of conspiracy

do not in and of themselves invalidate a tool. This is designed for situations in which the military is providing crowd control.

[mark414]

139. like um...this?

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Establishing_martial_law_in_the_United_States

[Basileus Basileon]

145. Yes, exactly like that. nt

[Rex]

28. ADS - just has a ring to it.

[Moochy]

29. Kick

:kick: for the night owls! Hoot!!

[defendandprotect]

30. And Americans are the enemy--????

[Moochy]

35. ?

The story is about the this new system, which is planned to be rolled out in Iraq.

[Common Sense Party]

44. Hey, look on the bright side.

After January 2009, the Democrats will control the 'Rays of Pain.'

And we can decide upon whom it should be tested.

[stirlingsliver]

49. I Give Up. I Surrender.

It's just hopeless and futile to attempt to resist anymore.

So I just give up.

All I want is food, water, clothing, a place to live, and healthcare.

Just give those to me, and you can do whatever you want.

It's pointless to try to resist.

[Moochy]

118. Now you get the idea.

[seabeyond]

50. damn good thing we can trust our cops not to abuse us.... we the people

or airport security or any of the others with power over us. zapping us to make us submit and keep us intimidated at all time without proof of abuse sure could get out of hand. but then, our cops being the nonabusive, nonpower hungry, just and ethical, non bigoted people that they are.... surely we can trust them with this weapon against the people.

"It's not intended to kill."

i like this one the best. just like the taser is safe and doesnt kill either.

damn, we are fools. all in the name of an illusionary fear.... such fools.

[LeftHander]

52. It is MICROWAVE - Boils your water...95 GHZ is MICROWAVE

I bet it would pop people.

Imagine a tracking mechanism that locks onto a person and no matter where you go you keep getting hotter and hotter....the pain increases as your body fluids heat up by these "PROJECTED MICROWAVES" (yes MICRO-WAVES)

High energy radio waves are MICROWAVES....the active denial frequency is 95 GhZ....

"IEC standard 60050 and IEEE standard 100 define "microwave" frequencies starting at 1 GHz (30 cm wavelength)"

They hold the beam's focus on you until your proteins start to denature (cooking you like an egg) Your skin would start to bubble as the escaping steams forces it's way to the top...as the beams penetrate further your internal organs solidify, muscle tisse cramps and siezes, your abdominal cavity starts to become distended....at this point you are on your way to death. Enough internal damage has occurred that you will die in a matter of hours. If the beam is focused and hits your head you will go blind, eyeballs cooked from the inside and more time will cook parts of your brain. That will kill you for sure and your body sends fluid to help repair the damage your brain will swell up increasing cranial pressure and ultimately causing massive strokes and brain.

This is a weapon to be feared. It is inhuman.

If it simply causes excruciating pain to people from 500 yards it can surely kill as well.

It is not "intended to kill" but it can it could easily cook someone. A smaller device aimed at someones head in a powerful burst would probably be instantly fatal. It could also be instantly terrifying...as people's heads are blowing up in a crowd.

Say...Scanners....ever put an egg in a microwave....?

[Basileus Basileon]

57. Yes, that's very scary. That doesn't actually happen.

The rays cannot penetrate more than a fraction of a millimeter. It causes no tissue damage whatsoever--to the point where no matter how long you've been in it, there is no pain the second you are not being targeted.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. How does it work?

If it heats the skin hot enough to cause excrutiating pain, how does it not cause burns?

[Basileus Basileon]

68. It doesn't heat the skin itself.

It excites water molecules in the very periphery of the skin. It's enough that outmost heat-sensitive nerve endings are activated, but there's so little actual heat caused that no tissue is damaged.

From the Army's testing (which is all public information):

The incident power density at the skin surface falls to l/e2 (13.5%) at a depth of 0.4 mm. For
the brief exposures contemplated, much of the heat deposited in the most
superficial layers of the skin is re-radiated to the environment over the next
10-20 S. The blood that circulates in the skin redistributes the remaining
heat. The fraction that is conducted to structures deeper than the skin is
negligible. Thus, there is no known risk of significant heating of any
subcutaneous structures or organs with the exposures contemplated in this
experiment. There are no known aftereffects of heating the skin to painful
but non-damaging levels.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. So it heats the water molecules in the periphery of the skin.

Got that. So it causes heat and intense pain in the living parts of the skin where the nerves are.

How does that not cause burns?

[Basileus Basileon]

78. It does, if withstood long enough.

Since the heat dissipates extremely quickly (as it only exists in the first 0.4mm of skin, which is mostly dead anyway) burning is not a risk for anyone but those most determined to stay in the beam as long as they can and with the highest pain thresholds (that is, only 6 of the 9000 test subjects). Even still, for those people, burning only occurs on particularly sensitive skin, and requires no medical treatment.

[Basileus Basileon]

73. And for the worst-case scenario?

That is, for the toughest of the Marines, who gutted it out for 30 seconds (rather than the 2-3 that most volunteers were able to withstand?)

Some skin (e.g., eyelids) may be more vulnerable to thermal damage than other
skin, so there may be a small risk of mild thermal damage (small blisters) in
subjects with a high pain tolerance. As such, pain similar to touching a lit light bulb
is a known risk associated with exposure. Such damage should resolve within a
few days without sequelae. Of note, blistering has been observed in six individuals
from overexposure to MMWs in the approximately 9000 exposures performed by
AFRLIHEDR personnel to date. These, blisters were considered minor as they
resolved without residual effects and did not require medical treatment.

[Moochy]

79. Go figure

You'd be so gung-ho about a system that causes pain remotely.

Its a similar dynamic when I read your posts.

[Basileus Basileon]

80. I wouldn't be gung-ho about it.

Hell, if it were on me, I'd be on the ground before they turned it on.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. So the worst case would be cancer, sepsis.

:shrug:

[Basileus Basileon]

84. Well, not really.

Repeated exposure to MMWs has not been demonstrated to initiate or promote cancer (Mason et al., 2001).

Now, if you deliberately stay in it long enough to promote burns (as 0.07% of volunteers decided and were physically able to), you do indeed very very slightly raise your risk of cancer, just as you would with any minor burn. Suggesting that is enough to discredit the idea seems like a stretch.

[symbolman]

115. I have this "friend" who might agree with a lot of what you're saying here

And while I would Never insult a fellow DU'r such as yourself, I'd just have to say that my "friend" was one Sick Fuck.

I would have to argue with my "friend" that there would at Minimum be a Lot of what my "friend" would call Collateral Damage in the form of, on, let's say any Old People stuck in a well deserved Riot against a Ruthless Asshole like Bush and "his" Govt.. Slow people, children, mentally challenged, animals in the path, pregnant women, etc...

But my "friend" the sick, heartless fuck that he is would continue to Defend such a vile use of technology.. Yep, he's a Real Kingsized Asshole and a half..

He"d probably tell a joke that other sick, useless excuses for a human might laugh at, like:

"have you seen the new GERMAN Microwave oven?"

"It Seats Fourty People"

Hey, you don't have a brother do you? :)

Gee, Now Bush can Interrorgate Whole Football Stadiums!

He's been using this to pop Frogs at 100 yards, back at the Pig Farm designed by DisneyLand...

[Basileus Basileon]

127. You lost me at "well-deserved riot."

Mass violence is never deserved. A protest is not a riot. You should have unlimited right to the former. You do not ever have right to the latter.

[symbolman]

160. Right, tell that to the French

Who threw the shackles of Oppression off in a big way, and who was watching as he took notes so this country could forge a Constitution?

Thomas Jefferson..

I suspect that you either have a lot of time on your hands, or are insanely bored.

You really haven't a leg to stand on, and it's been pointed out far too many times..

Time for me to update that ignore list, as I suspect others have been doing.. I wonder what it's like to keep making the same meanass posts over and over, while the rest of the posters slowly disappear.. To some fools I've noticed, it smells a LOT like Victory, but, oh brother..

Bye bye now, don't spend it all in one place... :)

[Basileus Basileon]

162. So you disapprove of this system

because it lessens your ability to engage in open rebellion against government? Hate to tell you buddy, but you don't stand a shot as it is.

(If I don't "have a leg to stand on," you'd think there might be one counterargument that isn't "you must be a fascist.")

[Moochy]

171. If it goose steps like a goose

[Basileus Basileon]

174. Your argument is more like "If it possesses feathers, it must be a duck." nt

[Bonobo]

58. Just another crazy "conspiracy" that people like me were crucified for talking about years ago.

Snore... We all ignored it when it was still in its infancy. Now we will burn for it, literally.

[seabeyond]

60. i am with you on that. i think what amazes me the most is how much all

is coming to be, having seen it being created not so many years ago. yet when it was so obvious how this would develop, so many people would defend and protect, out of their own fears. now here we sit with the perfect tool to abuse with no evidence of the abuse and powers that be with such intent to intimidate and control,.... we the people. those powers sure are sitting pretty because of all the cowards that allow fear to chip away at the protections individuals use to have in this country, that we have given up under this administration. the people are going to get to fear our govt and police like other nations have had to fear us as a nation

[seemslikeadream]

59. microwaves

http://www.bevolution.org/pdf/Brainwave%20Model%20New.pdf

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Funny stuff.

Hertz Effect

3.1415 "Uranus" Brown light. Our bowels vibrate and 3.14. As this frequency clean pants and the joy of life diminishes.

69 "testaclese" The gonads are the superior gland of the everything. They vibrate merrily. The term exploding testicles is a medical disease known in the Netherlands and parts of Prussia since 1892

420 "kryptonite" This frequency causes superman to lose his powers.

812 Hz "donut" The old brothers fist vibrates at 812. This causes pain, usually in the shoulder.

[Swamp Rat]

92. kick

:kick:

[Duer 157099]

98. HAARP, anyone?

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

[Az]

113. Nonlethal?

Only because they expect the target to get out of the way. Someone tell me they aren't just aiming a microwave gun at people. If it is heating their skin isn't prolonged exposure going to result in injury or death? If they aim this at people that can't get out of the way....

[MiniMe]

114. Can we test it on Cheney to see if its non-lethal?

Wonder how it would do on that pacemaker?

:sarcasm: because I would never wish harm on other people.

[lonestarnot]

119. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

[Elspeth]

135. I know. I'd like to recommend it too

:kick:

[Moochy]

122. Kick

For the saturday du crew :kick:

[Moochy]

155. Great Zandor's Ghost!

I thought I saw a spirit of tombstones past!

[Basileus Basileon]

165. Disagree with Moochy = Troll?

:eyes:

Still waiting for my counterargument.

I'm sick of woo-woo non-thought. I'm making a stand for logic and evidence.

[Moochy]

168. Such a brave little toaster

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

179. Like kudzu.

MKJ

on edit, anticipating BB's next soapbox, coming to DU thread near you.

[KamaAina]

159. "Non-lethal" my Aunt Fanny

that's what they said about the Taser. We all know how well that worked out.

It may not kill perfectly healthy control subjects -- but use it on someone with a heart condition, or ODing on cocaine, or... :scared:

[Basileus Basileon]

163. Please explain how this might possibly cause someone to die. nt

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

170. kick.

:kick: MKJ

[KamaAina]

192. These are among the conditions under which people have died after being Tasered.

the high voltage messes with the heart's electrical pulses. I can imagine that this new "non-lethal" weapon would do so as well.

[Basileus Basileon]

193. This weapon is nothing at all like a Taser.

It excites the water molecules in the outmost 4/10ths of a millimeter, convincing heat-sensitive nerve cells that the skin is on fire. Pain subsides immediately after the person is no longer being targeted, and no tissue damage occurs.

[Moochy]

196. It also seems to excite people

like you.

[rucky]

178. This is so much better than spending our tax money on education. n/t

[Moochy]

189. More effective in the grander scheme of things too

[Basileus Basileon]

190. The amount of money that goes to the military is extraordinarily excessive, yeah. nt