Did Ted Rall go to far with this one?

[Atman]

Forgive me if I missed the discussion on this one. It's not Rall's most recent cartoon, but it was pointed out to me via a raging debate going on at, of all places, a cartoonist's message board. We have the usual "he's attacking the troops!" crowd vs. the usual "he's just making a point, it's his job" crowd. It was brought to the for by one of the most loathesome cartoonists online, imho, John Bergstrom's "Attack Cartoons," featured below...



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So whatcha think? I love Rall, but did he go too far this time? Is he really calling our troops "idiots?" If his is, is he correct? I mean, knowing what we know now, that the entire war is based upon lies and the pillage of a sovereign nation's natural resources, do you have to be a taco short of combo plate to voluntarily sign up for duty in Iraq?

.

[BrklynLib at work]

1. My take is that he is being sarcastic...but I could be wrong.

[babylonsister]

2. 500 years later? I think he's pointing out the stupidity of this whole

illegal occupation and how tiime won't change a thing.

[Pab Sungenis]

3. Ted Rall likes to provoke.

He gets people riled up so, hopefully, they'll think. This is actually a very thought-provoking cartoon.

[Atman]

4. "Thought provoking" is exactly right

If nothing else, Rall makes you question. Not just question others, like BushCo, but question yourself and your own core beliefs.

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[Dhalgren]

5. He is stating something that most people agree on.

Anyone who has any other opportunities will not enlist in the military. With the exception of a few poor souls who feel it is a "tradition" that they MUST follow, the bulk of our troops are the disadvantaged in one way or another. What is your "take" on the average person enlisting for Iraq? Are they all Tillman's who volunteer out of patriotism? How many of them say, "I have been accepted to college and I have all the money I need, but I'm going to Iraq first."

We pretend that we don't think that most of the "volunteer" troops are stupid, but we really do. Ask yourself this: If a young person you are fond of asked your advice about joining the Army, what would you tell them? Why? And what wold you think if they joined anyway?

[Atman]

6. "We pretend that we don't think that most of the "volunteer" troops are stupid,..."

That is a large part of why the military wants young men fresh out of high school. Sorry, at 18, you ARE stupid. Not in the intellectual sense, necessarily, but you've no world experience. You're a raging bundle of testosterone, blood still roiling after years of football and "us vs. them" competitions. And of course, as you state, if you don't have a good job lined up or some cake in the bank, what choice do you have? Since kids tend to think they're invincible, it's easy to find some who'll think they'll just go over and kill a few bad guys (OH BOY! I get to play with high-powered weapons!) and collect your fat check. Easy schmeasy!

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[OnyxCollie]

21. Yesterday, I noticed a new recruiting office had opened in next to the grocery.

As I was getting out of my car, I watched a young red-headed kid walking by with his old man. The old guy, shuffling along next to the kid, wore a well-worn camoflage baseball hat. I thought, "That kid is shipping out." Sure enough, the backpack he carried had an Army logo.

When there are no decent jobs, when student loans are no longer effective, the option to improve yourself (I live in a college town) is to risk getting your head blown off to support a corporate state.

[bryant69]

7. Yeah - pretty much.

The message of the strip is "Soldiers are idiots." You can put as nice a spin on that as you like, but the core message is still one that's going to piss the hell out of a lot of people.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Dhalgren]

9. You are right about it pissing people off.

It pisses off fat people to be called fat, even though they know they are fat. The same with short people, call them short and they get pissed. Go figure...

[bryant69]

13. So you agree with the cartoon that American Soldiers are Idiots? n/t

[gatorboy]

15. He's saying ALL soldiers are idiots?

Or anyone that enlists after 2007?

[bryant69]

16. I was asking Dhalgren

But I think you are being overly generous with Rall if you think he thinks only soldiers after 2007 are Idiots.

[gatorboy]

23. You obviously didn't comprehend the strip.

The point is that if you enlist in 2007 even with all the information that's out there about what a crock this war actually is, you're an idiot.

But you've got me curious. Rall said somewhere he hates all soldiers? You have a link to that somewhere?

[bryant69]

25. Yep - Ted Rall said he hates all soldiers - here' sthe link

Wait - he didn't say he hates all soldiers. ON the other hand there was the famous pat Tillman strip in 2004, I believe which implied that Tilman was an idiot for joining the military.

Bryant

[Dhalgren]

20. If you were eligible to join right now, would you? Why not?

Are all US soldiers idiots - probably not. If an intelligent person were not in dire straights, with the military being their last chance at opportunity, would that intelligent person join the military?

[bryant69]

26. So they are either idiots or in such dire straits that joining the military is their best option?

If they were really intelligent couldn't they figure some other way to solve their problems?

Bryant

[gatorboy]

28. So you agree with the cartoon that American Soldiers are Idiots? n/t

[Atman]

31. It doesn't say "American soldiers are idiots."

It is entirely based upon a post-2007 perspective, when the facts have been laid on the table that this is a bogus corporate war, and if you sign up now you're essentially putting your life on the line for Dick Cheney and Halliburton and Exxon-Mobil, NOT for America. The final frame is set 500 years in the future.

Quite frankly, I don't think "idiocy" is the only reason kids would sign up today...desperation, bribery and fraud are more like it. Just witness the story today about the Marine recruiters using stand-ins to take the enlistment exam for recruits who were too stupid to pass the test themselves. How fucking stupid do you have to be to be unable to pass an exam to go get your head blown off! Rall makes a very salient point, and I don't believe that point was "American soldiers are idiots."

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[gatorboy]

34. See post #23

;) I was just questioning Bryant's determination to argue simply for the sake of arguing.

[Atman]

37. Gotcha.

I just thought that maybe your stupid!

:hi:

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[gatorboy]

41. That's YOU'RE.

Stupid.




I keed! :P

[gatorboy]

44. D'oh! Didn't see Bryant's brilliant comeback you were referencing until now.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Atman]

36. "God your stupid."

The irony runs thick in this one!

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[Dhalgren]

39. What other "motivations" might there be?

And what would you guess are the percentages of those diverse motivations within the most recent enlistees? Just curious.

[bryant69]

45. Love of country, desire to serve your fellow citizens, family traditions

I couldn't guess as the percentages. And of course these probably aren't all of them.

Bryant

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. Mmm, no, those don't work.

Enlisting to fight in Iraq is a pretty stupid way to love your country, serve your fellow citizens, and honor family traditions.

Anything else?

[bryant69]

48. I disagree with your assessment. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Really?

I think loving your country is a noble intention, but going off to fight in a war that's doing nothing but hurt your country strikes me as a particularly stupid way to show you're love for a country.

[Atman]

49. Bryant is missing such a huge point here...

Love of country and all that stuff is great, but what does participating in an illegal war based upon lies have to do with loving your country? Family tradition? Pul-leeze...do you use that one to justify beating your wife in a drunken tirade, because Dad used to do it to your mom? Serving your fellow citizens? How are they doing that, pray tell? By helping W bankrupt the country and deny benefits to fellow citizens? Doesn't make sense, Bryant, for a very simple reason which was/is at the core of Rall's cartoons; we all now know that the war is a bogus pile of corporate crap based totally upon lies, for the benefit of a very small cabal of millionaires and corporate whore-bags. Since there was never any WMD or any threat to America, and we know it was only about pillaging Iraq's resources, what conceivable "noble cause" could there be in joining up? Might as well sign up to drive the getaway car in a bank robbery. Just as noble, and you don't have to go to Iraq!

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[gatorboy]

52. Ouch!

:headbang:

[bryant69]

53. Well for one thing

You don't choose to go to Iraq, you choose to enlist in the military. It's our job as citizens to see that the military is used properly (a task we have fallen down on). It was our job to keep President Bush from engaging in illegal and unnecessary wars and misusing those who have chosen to put themselves on the lines to protect us.

We failed.

And now we want to blame the military for our failings. I suppose it is somewhat more comforting, all told, but given my families service I don't find it in my heart to blame them.

"I've always been amazed that the very people forced to live in the worst parts of town, go to the worst schools, and who have it the hardest are always the first to step up, to defend us. They serve so that we don't have to. They offer to give up their lives so that we can be free. It is remarkably their gift to us. And all they ask for in return is that we never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again? " - Michael Moore, taking quite a different tack from Ted Rall.

Bryant

[Atman]

54. Wow, did you miss the point of Moore's words, too!

Same as Rall's. And you STILL miss the point about signing up AFTER you know the war is a lie. That's the issue, Bryant. Nothing more. You're all over the place, but we're not talking about "all over the place." We're talking about people who enlist in a war that has been demonstrated to be bogus. All of your "protecting the country" and stuff is meaningless, because they are not signing up to do protect their country! That was what Rall said in his cartoon...this is 2007, we KNOW the war is bullshit...why still sign up? You'd have to be...uh...well, an idiot!

Rall and Michael Moore are on the same page. Who the hell will sign up to protect us from REAL threats after the government has been shown such a willingness to LIE to them? To stop-loss them? To break up their families and deny them adequate medical care after they've been maimed for life?

Who, Bryant? If not idiots, who then?

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[bryant69]

55. Well a year and some change somebody else will be in the White House

Hopefully someone with a "D" after their name. Perhaps they are thinking long term.

I disagree with your assessment of Michael Moore - I really don't think he would support Ted Rall calling soldiers idiots.

Bryant

[riverdeep]

58. Don't forget adventure.

Males at that age are living out the mythos of Beowulf, Conan, Buck Rogers, and all the other stories and legends that tap into and inform what being a young man is. Off to war! With camo and nightgoggles and an M-16! Shoot the bad guys, be a hero! There's a kind of romance about it for some. Usually wears off quickly.

BTW, I think this hasn't been made explicit anywhere. Those who haven't seen or heard of the movie may be confused. This is a take-off on the opening scene of Mike Judge's (King of the Hill) movie, 'Idiocracy'. The smart people stop having kids while the dumb people keep breeding until the planet's IQ steadily drops over time. Great movie.

[Atman]

59. The opening scene of "Idiocracy" is an instant classic.

The rest of the movie had it's ups and downs, but that opening with the family trees was priceless. And totally scary. I had just been to a demographics seminar not too long before I'd seen it, and "Idiocracy" doesn't appear to be too far off in its assumptions. And yes, the 500 year reference was straight out of "Idiocracy." Maybe Rall shouldn't have tried to parody a movie only about 137 people have seen!

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[Name removed]

43. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cherokeeprogressive]

38. "PROBABLY" not?

[Dhalgren]

40. That would be my surest answer...

[gatorboy]

8. Here's a story about Rall that sums up the role of a political cartoonist.

RALL: I went for a staff job at the Ashbury Park Press a few years ago, and the editor pointed over his shoulder at the parking lot and asked me 'how can you assure me that I'll never look out that window and see protesters out there holding up signs about one of your cartoons?' And I just looked at him and said 'well, if I do my job, hopefully it'll happen pretty often'. Obviously I didn't get the job.

[cali]

10. yes.

he called all the troops idiots. that's a step too far for me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. "Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain

And, there is hardly a more sacred cow than our military.

[cali]

12. you know I'm not afraid to take on that sacred cow

but he's doing more than that. He's actually doing the flip side of the coin of the folks who call them all heroes and the best and the brightest.

[SidDithers]

18. He's the anti-Zandor?...nt

:evilgrin:

Sid

[KittyWampus]

14. Honestly, I think Ted Rall verges on being the Leftwing version of Ann Coulter.Just more penetrating

but pretty much just as in-your-face obnoxious.

There are other cartoonists being just as pointed but way more subtle.

Rall's cartoon only work for those who are wholly on his side and who prefer extreme statements.

[Tesha]

17. Society *ALWAYS* has a need for the "B Ark".

Iraq happens to be one of the current implementations
of that concept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Places_in_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Golgafrincham



A bit closer to home, societies have always had a need
to kill off a significant number of the less-powerful
males so that the more-powerful males in the society
would have a surplus of women from whom to choose.
Wars have traditionally served that need.

Tesha

[wuushew]

19. Its brilliant, a reverse Idiocracy

n/t

[Enrique]

22. not too far, just wrong

[bunkerbuster1]

24. Put it this way--think about base-stealing.

You have to get a good jump on the pitcher. You have to make a judgment call about what kind of pitch is likely to be called (i.e., breaking balls in the dirt are better than high fastballs.)

But most of all, you have to calibrate how much of a leadoff you can get away with, and not get picked off at first.

How do you determine this? By allowing yourself to get picked off once in a blue moon. If you don't, you'll never know what you can get away with.

That's how I see a 'toon like this. Yeah, it's "going too far," but so fucking what? Good for Ted Rall for pushing the limits and pissing people off. More like him, please.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. A better analogy

Sometimes the pitcher throws high and inside - it keeps the batter guessing.

Sometimes he does it twice.

When he does it a third time, he gets his ass kicked.

Yes, it's too far. People enlist for a variety of reasons, not all of which are because they're too stupid to be like us.

[FredScuttle]

27. I said it before and I'll say it again

Fuck Ted Rall.

His Pat Tillman cartoon was a disgrace and an insult to a LIBERAL who was killed by his own troops (for questioning the war, I believe). Of course, Ted didn't know that at the time he was depicting Pat Tillman signing up to "kill Arabs", but why let the truth get in the way of a good smear?



He apologized, of course, for the Tillman cartoon, but too little, too late. This guy is the liberal Ann Coulter. Fuck him.

[Atman]

29. So you acknowledge that he did the cartoon about Tillman before the facts came out

And still you say it doesn't matter? The entire point of the cartoon, for which he apologized, was turned on its head by the revelations about Tillman's questioning the war and possible murder by our own forces, and that means nothing to you? Hmm. Interesting.

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[FredScuttle]

30. Huh?

My point was that Ted Rall ascribed motives (racist ones at that) to a man he never met or knew...just as the Repukes tried to exploit and use Tillamn for their craven purposes, so too did Rall to make a point he could have easily made without smearing a good man.

I'm so happy that asshole had to eat crow when the truth came out. Fuck Ted Rall.

[Atman]

32. Okay, well obviously you dislike Ted Rall!

:hi:

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[FredScuttle]

33. Yes, intensely.

I'm against this war with every fiber of my being, but slandering dead (or live, in this case) soldiers to make your point is beyond asinine.

[Buzz Clik]

57. ack. We agree.

1. This cartoon is too much.
2. The Tillman cartoon was too much.

Rall defended the Tillman cartoon for quite a while. He even went on Hannity or O'Reilly and tried to get a word in about it.

Rall is very, very edgy and always dances along the line of bad judgment. I don't believe that he thinks all soldiers are idiots, nor do I believe that he thinks Tillman was an idiot (especially with the facts about Tillman's death as they are now known). He's trying to make a point with outrageous hyperbole.

As quoted from Rall above, he does not feel he's doing his job if he doesn't piss off people every now and then. Nevertheless, I'd suggest that he give each cartoon 24 hours before he releases them -- he might hold back some of the really tasteless ones.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. I think he's hitting the nail right on the head.

And I think that's why he's upsetting people.

[snooper2]

46. greatness....

nt

[wicket]

51. He went too far with the Tillman strip

Haven't bothered with him since.

[lame54]

60. Here are the real troops - not in cartoon form

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tMACzBomDK4