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NEWS FLASH- torture has a long history of NOT working

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blondie58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 07:19 AM
Original message
NEWS FLASH- torture has a long history of NOT working
if only our leaders would recognize this.



Torture Has a Long History ... of Not Working
By Heather Whipps, Special to LiveScience

posted: 19 October 2007 09:00 am ET

Share this story
Email From the dingy dungeons of the Dark Ages to today's shadowy holding facilities, the use of torture as an interrogation tactic has evolved little and possibly yielded even less, in terms of intelligence.
Inflicting pain to get information is a practice with deep roots as well as modern relevance, in light of the recent statements by President George W. Bush claiming the U.S. government does not use torture on political prisoners, despite some evidence to the contrary.
But aside from the moral and legal implications, does torture ever produce reliable intelligence?
"That's the impossible question," said Darius Rejali, a political scientist at Reed College in Oregon.
As a rule, torture is not an effective method of extracting information from prisoners, most experts agree.
"If anything useful came out these interrogations in Iraq, we would have heard about it," said Alfred McCoy, a University of Wisconsin-Madison historian and author of "A Question of Torture: CIA Interrogation, From the Cold War to the War on Terror" (Holt Paperbacks, 2006).
A history of violence
The question of torture has become more controversial of late due to a report in The New York Times on memos issued by the U.S. Justice Department in 2005, effectively authorizing intelligence agencies to use interrogation methods defined as torture under international law.
Psychological techniques such as the water-boarding and sleep deprivation that American operatives are suspected of using recently have a history going back to behavior experiments from the 1950s, McCoy said.
"They were looking for a key to unlock the mind," McCoy said of the CIA-funded research, "and the real breakthrough was that sensory deprivation could produce a mental disorientation akin to psychosis."
A switch from more physical methods of torture to the psychological approaches emerged in the following decades in places such as Vietnam, Central America and Iran, McCoy said, without any definitive proof of their effectiveness. When the "War on Terror" was initiated after the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, the CIA had another training ground for this kind of interrogation at its Guantanamo Bay detention center.
"Guantanamo Bay turned into a de-facto behavioral science laboratory," McCoy told LiveScience, where sensory deprivation and self-inflicted pain—allowing a detainee who had stood for hours to sit if he would only "cooperate"—regularly took place.
Though captives are less resentful when tortured psychologically, it doesn't make their statements any more trustworthy, Rejali said.
"Torture during interrogations rarely yields better information than traditional human intelligence, partly because no one has figured out a precise, reliable way to break human beings or any adequate method to evaluate whether what prisoners say when they do talk is true," Rejali wrote in a 2004 article on Salon.com.
Torture 'light' still unreliable
There's no such thing as "a little bit of torture," McCoy said of the "light" tactics that are preferred today. Detainees are just as likely to tell their interrogators whatever they want to hear under psychological distress as they are under physical distress, he said, a statement backed up by Sen. John McCain, who himself was tortured as an officer during the Vietnam War.
Democracies, rather than dictatorships or oppressive regimes, are more likely to engage in this seemingly stealthy kind of torture because it is easier to hide from journalists and citizens, Rejali said.
"Torture is a sign that a government either does not enjoy the trust of the people it governs or cannot recruit informers for a surveillance system. In both cases, torture to obtain information is a sign of institutional decay and desperation," wrote Rejali, "and torture accelerates this process, destroying the bonds of loyalty, respect and trust that keep information flowing. As any remaining sources of intelligence dry up, governments have to torture even more."
Psychological torture has persisted in theaters such as the Iraq War not because it necessarily works, but because the CIA has such an institutional history of the practice, McCoy said.
"The interrogators themselves tend to believe in its efficacy, and no matter what you do, you can't stop them once they start," he said, noting that the false sense of power one gets from inflicting torture only fuels more advanced brutality.
Medieval torture more organized
The Medieval or Dark Ages are widely held up as the standard-bearer in brutal and organized torture. Famous dreaded devices such as the rack, the spiked Iron Maiden coffin and a very unpleasant, pyramid-shaped seat called the Judas Cradle were used to coerce victims into providing some desired information, often a false confession.
Despite the seemingly barbaric nature of Medieval torture, however, the methods used were actually part of an organized system of justice, as opposed to the clandestine nature of the interrogations allegedly being conducted by the CIA, Rejali said.
Medieval torture was neither sadistic nor savage compared to modern torture and was no more or less rational or driven by urgent security concerns, Rejali said.
"The only reason the question appears more interesting for us is because morally those are the only ways democratic societies are able to justify it to themselves," he said, adding that "the search for heretics was always a serious one, just as the search for terrorists is today."
Medieval Torture's 10 Biggest Myths
The Top 10 Battles for Control of Iraq
Innocent Suspects Confess Under Pressure
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Torture, the way I've read about it, has never been about obtaining
usable intelligence. Most of the torture illuminated from medieval times was more to insure future behavior based on fear and to satisfy pathological urges of an overclass by torturing someone you were going to kill, anyway. No one was meant to survive torture and few did.
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blondie58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. yeah, you're probably right, EST
not to mention the fact that this group of criminals in charge of our government must get some jollies from watching it. Although, they never stop to think about other people using it on our guys that have been captured. That is one thing that John McCain can speak about firsthand.

I saw Rendition over the weekend and it was very moving- a very good flick.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. you are so right now that I think about it, its terrorizing and thats what they're after
Edited on Tue Oct-23-07 08:04 AM by madokie
terrorist terrorizing the terrorist, now I'm dizy
:removed an unnecessary word
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Medieval Torture was about getting a Confession NOT evidence.
In fact in much of Europe in the Medieval period it was ILLEGAL to Torture UNTIL you were convicted of a crime. Then Torture was implemented so you would confess BEFORE you were executed (Thus you died having Confessed your sins and could go to heaven). You may find the logic strange but that was how people thought in the middle ages.

Now when you come to the Renaissance, then Torture expanded (Starting about 1400). More to do with the Italian wars then anything else. Torture was to get information about one's enemies. but also to intimidate the people whose country you had just conquered. While the Church technically still condemned Torture (And used it) the purpose of torture changed. Torture was NO longer viewed as a way to get someone to confess to his sins before he was executed, but to intimidate any opposition. Thus most torture victims SURVIVED, how else was others to learn of the practice that still technically condemned? Torture was done in semi-public places, where people could see it being done, but no high Government Officials around so such officials could still say no torture was being done.

This practice of making sure people knew Torture was occurring but that high officials could say they did NOT know about it survives to this day. The Church's Condemnation continued (Even as branches of the Church Tortured people). This condemnation was repeated by opposition who could NOT be tortured (i.e. out of the country, or had a strong internal position so could NOT be taken prisoner and tortured), but the practice continued. It was viewed as ineffective and the Church seems to have dropped all torture by the mid-1600s (Even the Spanish Inquisition seems NOT to have used torture, do to its ineffectiveness, after about that date, most reports of Torture by the Spanish Inquisition was British Propaganda of the 1600s to justify anti-Catholic Policies in England and Ireland).

Side note: While Torture was condemned by almost everyone by the 1600s, physical punishments were popular. In many of the propaganda of the time period such physical punishment was often called Torture. Often they was little difference between the two, but the main difference was simple. Physical Punishment was PUNISHMENT, ordered by a Court or other legal authority, to punish a person for a Crime NOT TO GET INFORMATION. For example, during the Homestead Strike of 1892 a Soldier who had yelled "Three Cheers for the man who shot Frick" was sentenced to be hung by his thumbs. Subsequently he sued in court, but the court denied the action on the grounds that being hung by the thumbs had been a standard military Punishment since at least since the US Civil War and thus legal (Pennsylvania subsequent made such punishment illegal). Is hanging by your thumb Torture? NO, if it is punishment. No one wanted information from that Soldier, they wanted him punished for cheering a violent act done to one side in a strike. A strike that as a member of the National Guard he was suppose to be "neutral" in.

In pre-modern times most propaganda accusing people of Torture rely on such cases of violent punishment as opposed to what we are calling torture in this thread which is to get information. Both must be condemned.

As to why torture is done today, there are two reasons. First is to put fear into a hostile population. While Violent punishment does little if any good as to getting information, it is often used to spread the fear of such punishment. i.e. NOT to get information BUT to put the fear of being tortured into people's minds. Dumping bodies so the bodies float by their village is another example of this philosophy. "If you oppose us you will die as will your family". Saddam, Stalin, Hitler and Mao all used Torture for this purpose, not to get information but to make people fear them.

The second purpose is to get confessions. Note not to get INFORMATION on a Crime, but to get a Confession to that crime. Police in the US use to do this on a regular basis (and some reports still do). The most recent well know case was when two black children (ages 10-12, the exact age I forget, I know ALL were pre-teens) were accused of killing and raping and killing a seven year old girl (Again her exact age I forget but it was younger then the two boys). The boys "Confessed" to the crime while in Police Custody. No accusation of Torture was made, but a confession was made. Just before the hearing to hold the boys for the crime, there was an argument in the hallway between the Chicago DA and a Police Lab Technician. At the hearing the DA DROPPED ALL CHARGES. No reason was given (I suspect the Technician was going to testify that the girl had been raped by someone over age 18 based on the number of immature sperm found). Anyway, noted that the Police used their position to GET A CONFESSION from someone THEY ASSUMED TO BE GUILTY. Torture is used in the same situation, to get Confessions from people ALREADY KNOWN TO HAVE DONE THE CRIME. In the above case that assumption was wrong, but it shows the type of case where Torture is often used.

Note in neither of the above two justifications for torture is getting information. The reason for this is simple, if someone gives you information you have to check it out. If it is done under Torture, you are rewarding him for lying (if the information is false). If you continue to torture him AFTER he gives you information, just in case he had lied, he has learned one thing, no matter what he says he will be tortured. This is why Torture TO GET INFORMATION is ineffective. Hopefully I do NOT need to explain why Torture in Intimidate people And to get a Confession are also wrong.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Good synopsis. Thanks!
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DeeDeeNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. Torture is wrong on so many levels
Leaders don't endorse torturing. Only bullies do. (And stupid bullies, at that.)
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. you know I think they know this, they have to, don't they?
so whats the real purpose of this is what I want to know. are they doing it for to get their jollies or for dick, w and the rest of the pnac crew, what gives with these people anyway
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. "Reservoir Dogs"
Nice Guy Eddie: "If you fucking beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, now that don't necessarily make it fucking so!"
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