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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 12:41 PM
Original message
Closed systems, fascism, and the laws of thermodynamics
I've just been trying to read through nadinbrzezinski's thread about whether we are becoming a closed society -- but that seemed to be dissolving into such nitpicky arguments about whether or not Guantanamo can be compared to Dachau that I couldn't stay with it.

So I thought I'd start a thread of my own, where I try to get around the nitpicks by hauling the discussion up to a higher level of abstraction.

Let's start with Wikipedia's definition of what a closed system means in scientific terinology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_system

A closed system is a system in the state of being isolated from the environment ... in practice no system can be completely closed; there are only varying degrees of closure.

In physics, a closed system can exchange heat and work, but not matter, with its surroundings. In contrast an isolated system can exchange neither heat nor matter with the surroundings.

That sounds like a reasonable metaphor to start with. It suggests, for example, that a system in which capital and goods can flow freely, but where there are limits on the movement of people from place to place, might reasonably be described as closed. So might a system in which interactions with the outside world are heavily filtered through approved channels -- or one in which people are simply taught to be fearful and suspicious of any message that comes from outside.

By any of those standards, the US is indisputably far more of a closed system today than it was 10 or 20 years ago.

But the greatest issue in discussing closed societies involves the methods by which they're maintained. This is where most of the disagreements arise, in large part because the mechanisms today are far more subtle than the crude techniques of sixty or seventy years ago. In those days, the best way the Nazis had to keep track of people was to tattoo numbers on their arms and buy a bunch of IBM card-sorting machines. That isn't needed these days, when we all come pre-numbered. The best means of control the Russians had was to force people to carry identification papers and show them on demand. These days, a single ID number coughs up your entire life history.

But it's not just the technology of surveillance that has been upgraded. Even the essential control mechanism of fear works differently now than it did in the 1940's. What need is there for concentration camps for a relative few when everyone in the society can be maintained in constant fear of losing their job, losing their health insurance, losing their house, and losing their credit record?

To look for explicit parallels with fascism is to lose sight of the real focus, which has to be the extended right-wing campaign to destroy first the unions and then the social safety net. That -- together with such things as student loans and restrictions on bankruptcy, which increasingly lock people into a life-long cycle of unpayable debt -- is by far the most effective control mechanism to make sure that ordinary non-rebellious citizens don't get out of line and start taking independent action.

What the control merchants ultimately learned from the example of the 1960's was that it doesn't matter if there are a few rebels within the system, as long as they can be kept from inspiring anyone to actually take action. They can always be marginalized, bought off, co-opted -- or, at worst, killed and their images used to sell t-shirts and wristwatches.

With all respect to nadinbrzezinski, our greatest fear here at DU should be not that they have files on us and we're going to wake up to find ourselves disappeared some bright morning. We should be worrying instead about what they're going to do next to demonize us, or turn us into figures of mockery, and to convince our fellow-citizens that they needn't or daren't listen to what we have to say.

Because that kind of isolation of the larger citizenry from the outside world would be the most effective implementation of a closed society that can be imagined.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. as long as they can be kept from inspiring anyone to actually take action.
Coup d'état on the human mind
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. I get your point but...

...I think the laws of thermodynamics have already been stretched to apply way too far from their original purview without even leaving the field of physics.

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
3. The average American will be controlled economically-
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 01:21 PM by BeHereNow
The majority of Americans are one paycheck
away from losing their "stuff."
The roof over their heads, their leased cars,
their credit purchased flat screen televisions, and
so forth.
Many continue to consume even though they
have minimal health coverage, if any at all.
Medical crisis can wipe out what ever tenable
existence they have cobbled together on credit.

Essentially, with the flip of a switch,
what ever assets you own can be shut off-
Anyone who has ever had their credit card or ATM card declined
due to "suspicious activity" understands this.

There will be no revolution for these reasons.
The closing of our society is electronically
controlled and most efficient.
The difference between the thugs of the past,
Hitler et al, and the thugs of today is the
power and absolute control of the citizenry
through technology.
BHN




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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. control of the citizenry
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. Patrida...
Den to perimena. Geia sou!
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rudeboy666 Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh boy, it must be a very slow Sunday. n/t
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. starroute is one of the most intelligent folks here
you shouldn't be so dismissive, pay attention you may learn something
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. You know too much.
Report to the nearest re-education center. Obey.



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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. OBEY
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 02:02 PM by seemslikeadream
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. OBEY

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. OBEY?
Edited on Sun Oct-14-07 02:03 PM by seemslikeadream
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. OBEY!

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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Obay.com, sort of like Ebay
Log in daily to receive new listings from you favorite sellers
of propaganda.
Heh...
Couldn't resist guys.
BHN
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
12. Sure Wish You Would Post More Often,starroute
I always learn a bunch when you do
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LunaSea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Same here.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Ditto.
BHN
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. hmm. let's take a look.
You say:

"That sounds like a reasonable metaphor to start with. It suggests, for example, that a system in which capital and goods can flow freely, but where there are limits on the movement of people from place to place, might reasonably be described as closed. So might a system in which interactions with the outside world are heavily filtered through approved channels -- or one in which people are simply taught to be fearful and suspicious of any message that comes from outside.

By any of those standards, the US is indisputably far more of a closed system today than it was 10 or 20 years ago."

Which leads me to ask you to describe how Americans interractions with the outside world are heavily filtered, and what you mean by the phrase heavily filtered?

What limits are there on the movement of people from place to place that have been imposed in the past decade? And increased security at airports and passports for travel to Canada or Mexico, isn't what I mean.

Yes, the computer age has made personal information too available, but what's the other side of that? Could it be messages from outside, that you say are being curtailed?

Then there's this paragraph of yours:

"But it's not just the technology of surveillance that has been upgraded. Even the essential control mechanism of fear works differently now than it did in the 1940's. What need is there for concentration camps for a relative few when everyone in the society can be maintained in constant fear of losing their job, losing their health insurance, losing their house, and losing their credit record?"

How does "the mechanism of fear" work differently? What evidence do you have that people are more fearful now than they were, for example, during the height of Joe McCarthy's extraordinary tenure? What about the fear of being dragged in front of HUAC? How does losing your credit record compare to being put in Concentration or Detention Camp? Fear of losing your job was surely greater during the Great Depression, and of course most people didn't have health insurance then, and a great many had NO access whatsoever to healthcare. It wasn't so different. Surely you don't buy into some Norman Rockwell past.

Are there any laws saying Americans must carry ID papers?
How are people being taught to be suspicious of "any message that comes from the outside"? What evidence do you have for that. Sure there's fear peddling, and there was in '50s too, and in many ways it went much further. To what, specifically, are you referring?

What "standards" do you think you've established? What are your examples?

You claimed:

" the US is indisputably far more of a closed system today than it was 10 or 20 years ago."

That may well be true, but it's not more of a "closed system" then it was 50 years ago.

Your argument doesn't stand the test of critical examination.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Wow...
If you don't think a social security card, birth certificate, and driver's license isn't a form of papers... just try registering your child at school, taking a trip in this country, or standing on a corner minding your business when a cop asks you for your I.D.

There are varying degrees of fascism. Recognize that this world is not free and we, in the United States, are not free. If this world was free there would be no need for identification, money, or wars. There is true fear in the US... People are tethered to their cubicles. I don't know what is worse, seeing gated fences or living in a wall-less prison.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. having a social security card, birth certificate, driver's license
is not the same as having to carry identification papers and having to show them at any time the authorities order you to do so. Of course you need certain forms of ID to register a child for school. And you've needed them for decades. I'm not sure of the legalities re a cop asking for ID when you're standing on a street corner, but that's something else that isn't new.

Of course I never said the world is free, or that we in the U.S. are free. But restrictions on freedom are relative. I believe that under bushco freedom has been restricted through such instrument as the Patriot Act and MCA, as well as blatant law breaking on the part of bushco. But it's not new. It's happened before.

Oh, and I have two words for you if you think true fear has never been seen in this country before: Joseph McCarthy.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Well, I'm not old enough to know his terror, only to have read about it.
I think the point is recognizing when freedom is no longer. And recongnizing what form the handcuffs are. Yes, if a cop asks for your I.D. and you do not produce, they can arrest you... even if you don't have it on you. Whether this is legal or not has to be better persued in the court system... but I was on a jury where this was the main crux of the case. And under the law as interperted now, you must produce the I.D. if asked.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
17. Disapearance is part of the method
as well as random detainment and release

But the techonology allows them to do it more efficiently as you have stated

Nine out of ten steps are in place now... but the technology makes it that far more efficient

As to disapearing you or me... unless you are a key individual, for the most part you have nothing to worry about... for the most part... After all the NKVD went even after party members...

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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
19. You show the potential for a closed society.
And, since it's possible, it must be. This confuses two modes of existence, one real and the other potential. What I say below merely expands on this.


"It suggests, for example, that a system in which capital and goods can flow freely, but where there are limits on the movement of people from place to place, might reasonably be described as closed. So might a system in which interactions with the outside world are heavily filtered through approved channels -- or one in which people are simply taught to be fearful and suspicious of any message that comes from outside. By any of those standards, the US is indisputably far more of a closed system today than it was 10 or 20 years ago."

But that's simply wrong. First, you have to decide if a closed society is one that's closed to information or exchange of people, there's a real difference between the two. But more importantly, neither holds in this case. I've had no trouble going abroad; I may need a form of ID, but I've always needed a form of ID to return--and the ID requirements for entering other countries hasn't changed. Going through customs is a hassle, but I've only had my bags searched in Britain under Blair, and the guy didn't even look at me when he tagged me for inspection. TSA's gone through my bags, seen what must have seemed suspicious in some sense, and ignored it entirely as irrelevant to the purpose of the inspection.

Meanwhile, I'd point out that I'm a linguist--not just one who studies language, but one who also studies languages. I've had a much easier time since the '70s, when obtaining materials in foreign languages was damned difficult in Baltimore. New York was a little easier, as was DC. But in the last 13 months I've gotten large book orders from Beirut (a month or so after DUers were claiming the city was utterly flattened ... something that surprised my Sunni and Shi'ite book vendors), as well as from Egypt, Romania, Poland, Russia, and France. Couldn't do that 15 years ago with any ease, and almost certainly not 20 years ago without specialized knowledge of booksellers and suppliers. Now I just Google what I want, or even use amazon.fr.

I've set up research in Poland via e-mail with absolutely no formal approval (my host asked her dept. chair). And in a typical day I may read information posted on webpages in 10 countries, some general access stuff (newspapers), some technical (a report on a the phonetics of stop consonants in Rioplatense Spanish). You know what? Nobody cared in the least. Things are much more open now. There are fewer foreign students, IIRC, coming to the US, but the number of US students going abroad is unchanged or up from a decade ago. Telecommunications make exchange of information easier, and there's no let up on immigration (a bit of easing up in illegal immigration, of projections for the year are up).

Exceptions that would have been standard 30 years ago now scream for attention, and apparently get it.

There's the potential for closing down this information flow and exchange of people. But there's far more than 30 years ago, and the potential for closing it down is the same as it ever was. Justifiably increased fear should be based on some change, not simply on greater recognition of the danger that's always been there; moreover, a long period of stability should reasonably be seen as justifying decreased fear. One can argue that visa restrictions have increased in the last 7 years, as they have; but they also relaxed in the previous 10 years, and perhaps they shouldn't have.

"But it's not just the technology of surveillance that has been upgraded. Even the essential control mechanism of fear works differently now than it did in the 1940's. What need is there for concentration camps for a relative few when everyone in the society can be maintained in constant fear of losing their job, losing their health insurance, losing their house, and losing their credit record?"

Granted, the potential for surveillance has been increased. This is different from the level of surveillance increasing. The control mechanism that you point out is precisely the second string means of control in the USSR and other totalitarian countries: First, your party membership allowed you access to careers and benefits denied others ... and your behavior and family background allowed or denied you access to the party (I've heard some scant DUers want such a system in the US). Second string control: In the USSR if the authorities got pissed at you, you lost your job; this was illegal, and would lose you your health care, your food, your habitation, and your freedom. The GULag was second or third-string, and hardly for the few: Remove you from society. How the three layers of control were applied changed over time--in '36, second-string pressure was relaxed a bit and the GULags used more. In the '70s, it was less GULagy and more Party-control. No matter: They got their way.

I don't see this here. In some ways the potential for quick, unsurveilled action has *increased*: Getting a group of students to protest by text messaging is so much simpler than getting a printing press, setting the type, printing the fliers, and hawking them.

The fear of economic disaster hasn't changed much, IMHO. My parents were afraid they'd lose their house when I was born in '59. And in the '70s. When I went to college my father lost a lot of sleep over paying for school for me. Present fears are always worse than past fears, unless one can adopt a sufficiently detached and ironic stance. In some ways I think I fear more than my parents, but I think I also have more to lose and less family to rely on.


"To look for explicit parallels with fascism is to lose sight of the real focus, which has to be the extended right-wing campaign to destroy first the unions and then the social safety net. That -- together with such things as student loans and restrictions on bankruptcy, which increasingly lock people into a life-long cycle of unpayable debt -- is by far the most effective control mechanism to make sure that ordinary non-rebellious citizens don't get out of line and start taking independent action."

The social safety net has been reduced, but a social safety net--or unions--is perfectly compatible with either an open or a closed society. Interesting that the real focus wasn't really closed/open societies, but the social safety net and unions. The USSR was union-central, with a great social safety net. Germany, probably not so much. Eh.

Personally, I don't see how debt prevents action, apart from the time required to earn whatever income you can. Perhaps if we had debtor's prisons ... Then again, unemployment and debt also have been shown to be great motivators to action.


"With all respect to nadinbrzezinski, our greatest fear here at DU should be not that they have files on us and we're going to wake up to find ourselves disappeared some bright morning. We should be worrying instead about what they're going to do next to demonize us, or turn us into figures of mockery, and to convince our fellow-citizens that they needn't or daren't listen to what we have to say. Because that kind of isolation of the larger citizenry from the outside world would be the most effective implementation of a closed society that can be imagined."

This I find ludicrous. You've decided to change the subject entirely *again* and redefine "closed society" not as one that is closed to outside influence, or devoid of a social safety net and unions, but one that's closed-minded against our views. Being demonized isn't anything like going into a GULag, sorry. Being mocked ... not the same as being executed. Being ignored, yippee: 25 years ago you'd have been ignored perfectly well simply because this forum wouldn't exist, and it would only matter if you were a writer or publicist. Freedom of speech does *not* entail the right to be heard, and freedom of the press does not entail having your press be a going venture. However it strikes me as more likely that you'll be heard now that we've obviously entered a closed, stifled society, than before under the guiding light of openness and freedom. Odd how that works ... perhaps the initial assumptions are a bit off so it's actually part of a proof by contradiction?

Go to Hyde Park: There's a great example of freedom of speech at the Marble Arch there, you can get up and say pretty much whatever you want. Of course, you get up and you're pretty much ignored by most people, but that's the way it goes. But that doesn't mean it's a closed society, or even that they're closed-minded against you; it just means nobody cares what you have to say, they have bigger worries, however trivial.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-14-07 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. great post.
it's always nice to see some reality injected into these discussions.
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