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Why don't we condemn every single country that has ever committed genocide?

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:23 PM
Original message
Why don't we condemn every single country that has ever committed genocide?
Start with the UK. We got lots on them. The Boer Massacre, the genocide in India, Africa, Ireland...I can think up a lot more.

Then move to Italy. When they were Rome they did a lot of nasty stuff. Let's condemn their raid on the Gauls.

And while we're on the subject of the Gauls, why don't we condemn France for their activity not just as the Gauls, but later in Indochine and Africa.

Hell, why don't we condemn every country in Africa - they're always fighting. I'm sure we could come up with something.

Then lets move to Holland. Yeah, Holland. Those bastards did that whole genocide thing in Indonesia.

And Spain, don't even start....
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. don't forget the genocides in VietNam and Iraq......
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Oh yeah, we're FOR SURE going to be on that list too
And Canada - their treatment of the First Nation is less than stellar.

And Australia, Vietnam, China, Japan, Korea, Brazil, Ecuador, Argentina, Chile, Greece, Macedonia, Algeria...
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. start with the countries that aren't even countries anymore
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Start with the U.S.
And Rec'd. :)
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. America giving pox infected blankets to native Americans
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Devlzown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. And then there's the U.S..........
War and smallpox blankets for the Indians and all the massacres and relocations. This resolution just feels hypocritical to me.
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nightrider767 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. Lest We forget our Black brothers here in the US
Who received a rather shitty deal. Maybe not killed en mass. But when you steal a man's dignity, you just as well as killed him. So if you give that idea any merit, then indeed a measure of genocide did occur.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. "Maybe not killed en mass"... but far too many. nt
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Oh they were killed en masse
Every slave ship had a few hundred die. Many died the minute they were exposed to new diseases. And many killed themselves rather than be subjected to slavery. And this happened on a week by week, day by day basis.
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. the Northwest Passage...definitely killed en masse
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. there's a very strict definition of genocide
not to downplay the injustice committed on African-Americans, but the Armenian genocide was actually a genocide, under the definition.

i don't think you can refer to the treatment of African-Americans as genocide.


i'm not trying to call you out or anything, but there's a very legitimate concern on the part of Armenians that the genocide be called exactly what it is...a genocide.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I understand the distinction you're making. Thanks. nt
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I'm sorry, but no.
Slavery was horrible, degrading, and a human-rights disaster that deserves to be burned into the minds of every American until the end of history. But it wasn't a genocide, and that is not a word that should be tossed about lightly.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Genocide
Edited on Thu Oct-11-07 05:45 PM by Taverner
"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, religious or national group. While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, the legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of the CPPCG defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.""

From Wikipedia


" In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

International legal definition of Genocide.



Slavery and the Native American Genocide both fall under these definitions. What's scary is that the US practiced genocide after slavery by these definitions.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. That doesn't declare slavery genocide.
Our treatment of Native Americans? Of course. But slavery doesn't.

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.

It wasn't. It was never intended to eradicate blacks. They were rather expensive; it was designed to keep them alive and laboring.

(a) Killing members of the group
Not the intent. Death of slaves was considered to be regrettable (economically, not morally) collateral damage.

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Again, a byproduct of the actual intent.

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Not true.

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Opposite of true

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Sort of true, but that refers to, say, taking Jewish infants and raising them as Germans, to prevent there from being any more Jews in the future. It does not refer to selling blacks from one plantation to another.

Now, a case could be made that the African tribes that captured and enslaved their neighbors were engaging in genocide. However, America was not. It was practicing slavery, which is an entirely different (and entirely atrocious) animal.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Slavery wiped out many African peoples.
Entire cultures, languages, and religions were destroyed.

"Now, a case could be made that the African tribes that captured and enslaved their neighbors were engaging in genocide. However, America was not. It was practicing slavery, which is an entirely different (and entirely atrocious) animal."

Ah, blaming the victim.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. genocide is an intent crime. slavery lacks the intent element.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. You mean it's not genocide because they accidently wiped out whole cultures?
And they accidently forbade slaves from speaking their own languages? And they accidently forbade them from worshiping their own gods? And they accidently raped them? And accidently broke up their families?

Sorry, Mr. Coffee, I ain't buying it any more than I bought your arguments on why we shouldn't acknowledge the Armenian genocide.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. When the whole cultures were wiped out by third parties,
it's more a matter of indifference to genocide. Slavers didn't care if the culture their cargo came from was destroyed; they just wanted warm bodies. Slavery and genocide are different crimes against humanity.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Whole cultures were wiped out by the Slave trade.
That's like calling the Sonderkommandos a "third party"
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Yeah. The Slave Trade was not a sentient being.
Rather, it was comprised of amoral persons who were enslaving humans for profit, without any genocidal intent. Any cultures wiped out were simply collateral damage--and that cultural destruction is part of the reason why slavery is considered to be a crime against humanity.

Some African tribes may have intended to wipe out their neighbors. Those would be committing genocide. Most were simply looking to get paid, and to avoid being wiped out themselves.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. How am I blaming the victim?
Many African tribes made out like bandits on slavery. Their tribal wars suddenly had a massive financial benefit; slave traders unleashed a hellstorm when they arrived. And many tribes took this as an opportunity to finally eradicate their pesky neighbors--and get paid handsomely for it.

Believe it or not, not all Africans are the same, dear, and they certainly didn't consider themselves to be the same. Close African tribes often considered each other mortal enemies, and considered the Europeans willing to sell them weapons to have a closer shared interest with them than the tribe encamped three miles away. I'm not blaming the victim, I'm blaming the people who ambushed them, captured them and sold them into slavery. I consider the act to be more important than skin color; to me "slaver" vs "slave" is a more important distinction than "European" vs "African."
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Because you're blaming black people for slavery.
That's the standard slavery apologist rhetoric. Could be cut and pasted from any neo-confederate web-site.

Yes, Africans participated in the slave trade. That's because they were propped up by the slave traders to do so. Those that were resisted were removed.
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Rhythm and Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. No, I'm explicitly blaming the slave traders.
Edited on Thu Oct-11-07 06:25 PM by Rhythm and Blue
Read that again. The slavers were the ones who, by adding both modern weapons and a financial incentive to tribal warfare, were responsible for the whole situation. The African tribes who engaged in the slave trade, however, were the ones who possessed an intent to destroy cultures.

You're not very good at nuance today. And it's kind of telling that you're lumping all Africans into the same "black people" pot. The ones who were enslaved and the ones who were the slavers certainly appreciated a distinction between their tribe and their enemy tribes.
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nightrider767 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. How Sure are you?
You're making a lot of definitive statements about what African tribes may and may not have done during that period. What are your sources? What if you're wrong? I mean, I can see that you're a very intelligent fellow. Hmm, I wonder if you might have received that information from a couple books, written by a coupla whites guys?

ANy chance?

Like I said, I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion. One thing I believe you're leaving out, is giving the african drug dealers total credit for the lives and cultures they ruined. When in fact, we know that for crimes like that, it is also the buyers "in this particular case, the good old USA" who are just as much to blame.
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nightrider767 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. Let's look at it as a whole please
In this argument, the slaves that arrived on our shore did not come out of a vacuum. Fact is, the slaves came from their ancestral homelands in Africa.

So in judging whether genocide occurred, we have to look at the bigger picture of what we were responsible for as a whole , and not the smaller picture of after the slaves got here. Sure slave traders rounded them up, packed them up and sold them to us. But in fact, they were working at our behest. We were as guilty as they, since we were abetting, encouraging, and causing. "Check the legal code of aiding and abetting by the way"

So if you want to look at it from that particular angle, which I happen to find quite valid, I would say.

Were whole areas of Africa depopulated, it's habitants rounded up and installed in perpetual foreign prisons for a lifetime of confinement, humiliation and early death? Yes.

Is that genocide. I would say yes. And yes we were in on it.

You can argue the finer point of "intent" all you want. Since what our "intent" actually was at the time is anyones guess.

That's my own opinion. I respect the opinios of others as well. I'm certainly not the judge of the world.
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MrCoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. slavery was wrong as hell, but it lacked the intent needed for genocide
the intent was to transport labor, not to eradicate a group. disgusting and reprehenisble as slavery was, it wasn't genocide.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. UK genocide goes back to the Seven Years War from 1754 and 1756 to 1763
...of course all of the major European empires threw their hats into the ring in hopes of coming out on top.

<snip>
The Seven Years' War(i) (1754 and 1756–1763), incorporating the Pomeranian War and the French and Indian War, enveloped both European and colonial theatres. It is estimated that between 900,000 and 1,400,000 people died.<1> This war involved all of the major European powers of the period: Prussia, Hanover, and Great Britain (including British colonies in North America, the British East India Company, and Ireland) were pitted against Austria, France (including the North American colony of New France and the French East India Company), the Russian Empire, Sweden, and Saxony. Spain and Portugal were later drawn into the conflict, and a force from the neutral Netherlands was attacked in India.

The war ended France's position as a major colonial power in the Americas (where it lost all of its possessions except French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Saint-Domingue and Saint Pierre and Miquelon) and its position as the leading power in Europe,<1> until the time of the French Revolution. Great Britain, meanwhile, emerged as the dominant colonial power in the world. The French Navy was crippled, which meant that only an ambitious rebuilding program in combination with the Spanish fleet would see it again threaten the Royal Navy's command of the sea.<2> On the other side of the world, the British East India Company acquired the strongest position within India, which was to become the "jewel in the imperial crown". The war was described by Winston Churchill as the first world war,<3> as it was the first conflict in human history to be fought around the globe, although most of the combatants were either European nations or their overseas colonies. As a partially Anglo-French conflict involving developing empires, the war was one of the most significant phases of the eighteenth century Second Hundred Years' War.<4>

<MORE>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Years'_War

But there was more:

<snip>
Genocides in history

Genocide is the mass killing of a group of people, as defined by Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."<1>

The preamble to the CPPCG not only states that "genocide is a crime under international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United Nations and condemned by the civilized world", but that "at all periods of history genocide has inflicted great losses on humanity".<1>

Determining what historical events constitute a genocide and which are merely criminal or inhuman behavior is not a clearcut matter. In nearly every case where accusations of genocide have circulated, partisans of various sides have fiercely disputed the interpretation and details of the event, often to the point of promoting wildly different versions of the facts. An accusation of genocide is certainly not taken lightly and will almost always be controversial. The following list of genocides and alleged genocides should be understood in this context and not regarded as the final word on these subjects.

<cut to>
Timeline of genocides and alleged genocides

Before 1490
Adam Jones explains, in his book Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction, that people throughout history have always had the ability to see other groups as alien, he quotes Chalk and Jonassohn: "Historically and anthropologically peoples have always had a name for themselves. In a great many cases, that name meant 'the people' to set the owners of that name off against all other people who were considered of lesser quality in some way. If the differences between the people and some other society were particularly large in terms of religion, language, manners, customs, and so on, then such others were seen as less than fully human: pagans, savages, or even animals.(Chalk and Jonassohn, The History and Sociology of Genocide, p. 28.)"<6>

Jones continues that the less that a people have in common with another group the easier it is for the aliens to be defined as less than human and from there it is but a short step to an argument that says if they are a threat, then they should "be eliminated in order that we may live (Them or us)."<7> But after making this assessment Jones continues "The difficulty, as Frank Chalk and Kurt Jonassohn pointed out in their early study, is that such historical records as exist are ambiguous and undependable. While history today is generally written with some fealty to 'objective' facts, most previous accounts aimed rather to praise the writer's patron (normally the leader) and to emphasize the superiority of one's own gods and religious beliefs." <8>

Scholars of antiquity do differentiate between gendercide in which males were killed, but the children (particularly the girls) and women were incorporated into the conqueror's society, Jones notes that "Chalk and Jonassohn provide a wide-ranging selection of historical events such as the Assyrian Empire’s root-and branch depredations in the first half of the first millennium BCE, and the destruction of Melos by Athens during the Peloponnesian War (fifth century BCE), a gendercidal rampage described by Thucydides in his 'Melian Dialogue'."<9>

The Old Testament not only describes the genocides Amalekites and Midianites but justifies them through references to the word of God.<6> Jones quotes Jerusalem-based Holocaust Studies Professor Yehuda Bauer: "As a Jew, I must live with the fact that the civilization I inherited . . . encompasses the call for genocide in its canon."<10>

Ben Kiernan, a Yale scholar, has labeled the destruction of Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War (149–46 BC) the "The First Genocide".<11> Quoting Eric Margolis, Jones observers that in the 13th century the Mongol horsemen of Temüjin the Genghis Khan were genocidal killers (génocidaires)<6> who were known to kill whole nations leaving nothing but empty ruins and bones.<12>


1490 to 1914

Americas
From the 1490s when Christopher Columbus set foot on the Americas to the massacre of Sioux Indians at Wounded Knee by the United States Army, the indigenous population of the Western Hemisphere may have declined by as many as 100 million.<13> In Brazil alone the indigenous population has declined from a pre-Columbian high of an estimated 3 million to some 300,000 (1997).<14><15> Estimates of how many people were living in the Americas when Columbus arrived have varied tremendously; 20th century scholarly estimates ranged from a low of 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons. This population debate has often had ideological underpinnings. Robert Royal writes that "estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with scholars who are particularly critical of Europe and/or Western civilization often favoring wildly higher figures."<16>

Scholars now believe that, among the various contributing factors, epidemic disease was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the American natives.<17> After first contacts with Europeans and Africans, some believe that the death of 90 to 95% of the native population of the New World was caused by Old World diseases such as smallpox and measles.<18>

Determining how many people died as a direct result of armed conflict between native Americans, and Europeans and their descendants, is difficult as accurate records were not always kept. In the book The Wild Frontier: Atrocities during the American-Indian War from Jamestown Colony to Wounded Knee, amateur historian William M. Osborn sought to tally every recorded atrocity in the area that would eventually become the continental United States, from first contact (1511) to the closing of the frontier (1890), and determined that 9,156 people died from atrocities perpetrated by Native Americans, and 7,193 people died from atrocities perpetrated by Europeans. Osborn defines an atrocity as the murder, torture, or mutilation of civilians, the wounded, and prisoners.<19>

In his book American Holocaust, David Stannard argues that destruction of the aboriginal peoples of the Americas, in a "string of genocide campaigns" by Europeans and their descendants, was the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world.<13><20> While no mainstream historian denies that death and suffering were unjustly inflicted by a number of Europeans upon a great many American natives, most scholars of the subject maintain that genocide, which is a crime of intent, was not the intent of European colonization. Historian Stafford Poole wrote: "There are other terms to describe what happened in the Western Hemisphere, but genocide is not one of them. It is a good propaganda term in an age where slogans and shouting have replaced reflection and learning, but to use it in this context is to cheapen both the word itself and the appalling experiences of the Jews and Armenians, to mention but two of the major victims of this century."<21>

<MORE>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history
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Zywiec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. And I thought the U.S. was the only country that did anything wrong. n/t
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. Agreed ... we should condemn every country that has committed genocide ...
It is especially important to do so when a country does not acknowledge that they did commit genocide ... especially modern day acts.

our country is far from perfect; however, that does not preclude us from acknowledging other horrors. It also does not preclude other countries that have not achieved a perfect society from criticizing us for our gross misdeeds.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
23. Like us and the American indians
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Adenoid_Hynkel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
25. Because we're too musy this week celebrating Columbus Day
oh, the irony!
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Fox Mulder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. Start with the U.S. and what they did to the Native Americans.
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