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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:14 PM
Original message
Okay, I surrender...
Hillary will be the nominee. It's inevitable. No matter what we here on the "fringes" might believe about her policy positions, it's obvious that most of America seems to think she'd make a fine President. How can we argue with corporate America, several different unions, and such shining progressive voices as David Brock and Bruce Bartlett?

Nevermind that they're Republicans. :eyes:

Bruce Bartlett, who writes for the National Review (a fine progressive media outlet--not really), says she's a "Democratic we can live with).

Yeah, that's what we want. A Democrat the Republicans can "live with."

Can I get a woo-hoo?

And, no, I don't think a Hillary nomination will get the Republicans to rush out and vote en masse for the Republican candidate. As things stand, they're getting a lukewarm reception at best as it is. Even with Hillary flying high in the polls.

The question we should be asking ourselves that, if she's the candidate the Republicans can "live with," is she a candidate WE can live with?

Let's hope so. Because she's the one we're getting.

It was pointed out to me that she comes across as "liberal on social issues" and more "conservative on foreign policy and trade issues." And, when you take into consideration that the vast majority of Americans (even Democrats) aren't necessarily the political wonks WE happen to be--insisting on being up-to-date with the latest issues, causes, and arguments, that is--she really has a mass appeal that some of us might not be able to understand.

She's a known quantity. There are few Dems, and, let's face it, few Americans in general, who aren't looking back on the nineties with a distinct sense of nostalgia. Putting aside NAFTA and the Defense Of Marriage Act and the Don't Ask Don't Tell military policy, and the media deregulation that has completely skewed (and screwed) the political dialogue in this country, it wasn't a bad time for us as a nation.

We were respected, we had a generally thriving economy (even though the whole dot-com bubble was a fortituous accident for the Clinton administration), and we ended up with a budget surplus for a change.

And let's set aside the whole War On Drugs escalation that happened under Clinton, particularly where even MORE cannabis users were prosecuted during that administration than the previous one, even though Bill himself stated after he was out of office that he thought it should be legalized.

I guess that's just politics. Too bad so many American families had to suffer for it.


The fact is, we could do a LOT worse than Hillary Clinton. Just take a peek over the fence. Even the Republicans aren't all that thrilled by their potential candidates. What we're facing over here is NOTHING compared to what THEY'RE facing. They couldn't get charged up about their candidates if they were hooked up to a defibrilator pushing 300 jules through their tiny little hearts.

McCain's pandering is blatant. Ghouliani is prompting Dobson's crew to consider running a third party candidate (I'm sure the new Theocrat party go over like a lead balloon), and the most religous of their candidates is from a sect all too many Christians still view as little more than a crazy cult.

So Hillary isn't our dream candidate. Big whoop. The way things are set up, the only Dem with any chance anymore has to play by DLC rules. That may sting, but it sure seems to be true.

So what to do? Well, let's see how this all shakes out. I'm pretty sure we're going to end up with a woman in the White House. A socially liberal woman, at least. Someone who won't appoint another TheoNazi to the Supreme Court. Someone who might actually surround herself with competent people instead of pinheaded sycophants.

And if we REALLY take the issues seriously, we start small and build up, the way the Republicans have been doing for the past twenty to thirty years. We work to take the party over from the inside, just as the nutcases did on THAT side of the aisle. It'll take work, it'll take dedication, and it will take patience.

But we've seen how it can work. And, as a bonus, we know that what we're fighting for in this case is actually what the majority WANTS. We won't be trying to pander to a 30% minority while trying to hide it from everyone else. The more momentum we gather, the stronger we'll become.

So, yeah...I'll vote for Hillary if she becomes the candidate. Because we could do a LOT worse. And, at the very least, it might give us some breathing space to start building a true progressive coalition to take on the established and entrenched interests currently running things.

So let's have no more talk of slamming the door on the party. If it's our party, we have to take responsibility for fixing it.

If it's not, what the hell are we doing here?
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's like pushing against a glacier, isn't it?
And arguing with one is just as effective
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wes Clark's Support
makes me feel better about HRC. As does Bill Clinton's -- whenever I see him on TV talking about Hillary, I immediately feel a sense of relief.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. big kick...
and yeah -- i couldn't resist the "piggy back" thread -- :evilgrin:
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. It's only October, don't give up
Front runners often end up not getting the nomination.

Now I am neither pro- nor anti- Clinton, but I do know that with 3 months to go anything can and probably will happen.

So no surrendering!!
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Our primaries are all we have...
We need to forget all of this and vote our conscience in the primary. It's our only hope.

There's not a chance in hell a Republican will win in the general; we can put anyone up against any on their list. Don't let people try to fool you on this. They will try. I hear them coming now...
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. The primaries will be decided by four tiny, right-leaning states...
The whole system is rigged to produce the "correct" candidate...
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. Iowa is not that tiny, nor is it necessarily that 'right leaning'
Harkin is from there, and he's no more 'right leaning' than Kohl of Wisconsin or Feinstein of California. It is 30th in population, about in the middle of 50 states. South Carolina, another one of those 4 'tiny' states is 25th in population. Nor is the primary decided by those states, unless the people act like sheep and jump on the bandwagon of the winner there. Super-duper Tuesday is where it is gonna be decided.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. k&r n/t
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. If she's the candidate, who wouldn't vote for her?
I mean, I've definitely got my own thoughts on the primary, and she's not my first choice, but if she wins the primary, then obviously I'll support her. She's certainly better than the other option, whomever it may be.
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. You aren't going to wait and see how she behaves during the general?
Edited on Thu Oct-04-07 02:22 PM by Heaven and Earth
Remember, if we are this conflicted about her when the general idea is that she is supposed to be appealing to us, how are we going to feel if she makes a (probable) dive farther towards the center-right in the general to woo centrists, the beltway elite, and Republicans? I anticipate being appalled. Now, she could surprise me, but I'd like to see some evidence before I increase the chances of being surprised beyond tiny.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
10. "Because we could do a LOT worse." Damn, that's depressing to read. Vote your conscience. n/t
PB
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
11. Sorry my dear Mythysaje, I will never surrender! Clinton is NOT a candidate
I can "live with" and I will work , as her hubby used to say,"till the last dog dies" to ensure that we get a truly representative nominee for the Democratic Party. Hillary is the bought and paid for candidate of the MSM and I reject her. I was trying to convince myself that she was not as bad as I thought and might work out until her vote on Kyl/ Lieberman convinced me what a disaster she would be.I will work very hard to fix the party but I will not accept the ineviability of this self serving, outsource supporting ,trangulator as nominee.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I'm not going to argue that...
But I don't like the way the winds are blowing on this one. And I think it may be time to start looking past the nomination to see what we're going to do to fix the problems that we're facing here. We're being screwed by the beltway and we know it. The party is in desperate need of a rebuild from the ground up.

So maybe we start looking in that direction now.

Not saying we shouldn't keep working for our chosen candidate...just that things are not looking good for their chances right now and we need to take a wider view.

This was partially tongue-in-cheek, btw. I don't like the poll numbers AT ALL. I think she's a mistake on many levels. But she does seem to have a lot of mass appeal, and we're up against the media on this one and they've already shown they're very good at manipulating things.

Time to take the long view and start coming up with new strategies.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I agree to a point.I think her "mass appeal' is manufactured. I agree with Edwards
that most people are still undecided.I have not yet decided what I will do if she is the nominee. I am not certain I could vote for her. I will not vote for anyone else but I am not sure I can pull the lever for her .Up until last week I thought I could try. And as for my beloved party, it may be that we will eventually have to part waysafter this election if she is the nominee. It may well be that if this is the person they want, I am not a member they want.I have a lot of thinking to do but will make no decisions until after the GE.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I think abandoning the party is a mistake...
There really IS no other option out there. Unless you want to give up on politics entirely, and that's hardly an option.

The only way for us to actually gain anything is by starting a ground-level movement to rebuild the party as a more progressive platform.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Actually, I was considering the "unthinkable' as an option. I have paid my dues and
I think I deserve a bit less stress. But as I say, I have this election to get through.My husband is a candidate as well. I was considering running too but the more I see, I think not.Sad but true.If my husband wins, that will be enough involvement for me. If he doesn't, I think it may be my time to give it a rest. We shall see. Things could change.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I've gotten more and more involved as time has gone on...
I'm a terrible candidate choice, myself. Too many skeletons, some not even IN the closet. But I believe we have to do something to change the dynamic here...particularly if Hillary wins. The polling results are making it pretty clear that SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE is completely screwed up. And many of us are pretty sure what that is.

The rah-rah-rah Hillary crowd confuses me, to be honest. I'm not sure WHAT they're cheering. But I know one thing for sure...it's not within me to back away and drop out entirely. If she wins, I find myself wondering what DU will become, since it was more or less designed as a reactionary venue for people opposed to the Bush Administration.

So what happens once the Dems are in charge? Will THEIR decisions be fair game, or will it become a Democratic version of Freeperville?
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-05-07 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. I honestly don't know. But I do not think, even as involved as I am, that I could bounce back from a
Hillary victory.I might try but my disillusionment would probably be complete. But as Scarlett says, "I'll think about that another day" after the GE.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-05-07 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. You're about where I am...
I'm not giving up until after the primaries. NO way.

However if Hillary does make the presidency I will start thinking outside the box politically. We desperately need representation for progressives in this country. It won't happen with this lock-step corporate mentality. I wish I could think that "we can change the party from within" even with a Hillary presidency. But I don't think we can with the DLC back in control. We will have to start a real movement that is stronger than the Greens ever were.

The Clinton candidacy is very symbolic. If she wins, I think it will be necessary for progressives to get off the bus. We can no longer go on watching candidates with the vision to make changes (like most of the rest of the Dem candidates) beaten back by the corporations in favor of the status quo candidate.
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Ino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. She's not my choice, but...
should she end up in the WH, I'll say "I didn’t vote for her but she’s my president, and I hope she does a good job” (paraphrasing John Wayne through Keith Olbermann).

I just haven't decided if "I didn't vote for her" applies just to the primary, or to the general as well.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
15. That's like saying "I give up, it's inevitable the corporatists will be in control AGAIN!"
The time for putting down the corporatists is NOW, IN THE PRIMARIES!

The corporatist owned media will try to dismiss that and not alert you to this fact! That is why it is ESSENTIAL that we DON'T GIVE UP and tell our neighbors what the media won't! That NOW is the time to THROW THE CORPORATISTS OUT OF POWER in this party and fix the system later when we get them into office to stop governance for profit and the elites over people once and for all!
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Or it could be called a "retreat and regroup."
If current tactics aren't working, it's time to consider new ones.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. It's waaay too soon to surrender, my friend
This country cannot afford another conservative president. We need to fight this allegedly "inevitable" catastrophe.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. I had 4 Brits on my flight last night convinced she was going to be the nominee...
and that this meant whoever the GOP nominee was would win. Sheesh, if only Americans paid that much attention to British politics.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
19. kicked and rec'!
you bet Hillary will be a great president and the republican candidates are all NIGHTMARE scenarios! Or should I say

"Queen Hillary!" May her reign be long!
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Oh, I wouldn't say great...
"Tolerable" is about as far as I would go.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. never give up. Never surrender.
At least not before the game even really starts. If we can ever make this party progressive then why can't we start right now? We have five months until the caucus in my state, and what have we been doing in the last 15 years since the 'rainbow coalition' was stampeded by Clintonistas? Not enough, it would seem.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Not enough by a long shot...
I think maybe we need to reconsider our long-range strategies.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-05-07 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Nevr Say Never
Edited on Fri Oct-05-07 03:20 AM by G_j
your post is accurate but,
a lot can/will change.
I'm stickin' with DK!


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Inspired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-04-07 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
27. NOOOOOO!!!!!!!
Surrender if you must after the February primaries.

I still believe and I still have hope. It is too soon to give up both.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-05-07 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
29. the one thing that can stop Hillary is . . .
an Al Gore announcement the day after he wins the Nobel Peace Prize . . .

I'm not optimistic . . . but I am hopeful . . .
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