What's a good proportion for gov't spending on basic physics research vs. basic ethics research?

[Boojatta]

Maybe all governments agree that basic physics is good because basic physics can be used to design more sophisticated weapons systems. All governments agree that weapons systems are good because all governments have departments of defense. However, if all governments have merely been defending their countries since modern science began in the 1600s, then why have there been wars since 1600?

[eShirl]

1. ethics research?

There are research ethicists?

[MrCoffee]

4. i lied on my ethics research grant application

[frazzled]

2. Gee, you must have liked Ahmadinejad's talk at Columbia

in which he rambled on incomprehensibly, equating "material" research in the sciences like physics and chemistry with "spiritual" research. (Cue theme song from the Twilight Zone).

Rev up those ethics cyclotrons!

[Boojatta]

3. I didn't hear his talk, but I have a question for you:

Which was invented first: the wheel or the concept of the number zero?

Note:

The number zero would still be the number zero even if people throughout the world used a symbol such as "Z" to represent it rather than a symbol that -- depending on the font -- looks a bit like a wheel.

Consider five. The Roman "V" was fine and couldn't be used in a positional number system simply because VI (six) would be confused with fifty-one. In other words, the individual symbols for Roman numerals are conventionally used only to represent numbers via the additive system.

The individual symbols are the clue as to what system is being used, except that, for example, 1011 might mean eleven if binary is being used.

[Swamp Rat]

7. Ethics is a very important component of social science research.

In fact, social science research regarding ethics has often found it lacking in the so-called hard sciences, which demonstrates more research on ethics is necessary.

"Gee, you must have liked Ahmadinejad's talk at Columbia" - is ad hominem and an unethical response to the OP.

[Jed Dilligan]

5. Countries were blatantly expansionist until 1945

And what exactly is there to research in ethics? We know right from wrong; the trick is applying it. The only reason to "research ethics" that I can imagine is if you want to claim something wrong is right, or something right is wrong, based on obscure references.

[Boojatta]

10. As of 1945, have they been expansionist, but not blatantly expansionist?

Why are we discussing what is or isn't blatant?

[Jed Dilligan]

11. By "blatantly," I mean they didn't even pretend not to be

"Lebensraum" was considered a sound scientific concept, even in countries other than Germany.

The behavior of Nazi Germany discredited the doctrine of national expansion, so since 1945 and the formation of the UN, expansion has only been done by proxy (puppet regimes, etc.)

[robcon]

6. Ethics researdh is a waste, IMO.

Zero is the appropriate amount to spend on 'ethics research.'

[Warren DeMontague]

8. What the fuck is ethics "research"?

A bunch of people being paid to navel-gaze, drink coffee and write papers?

Sorry, that's not "science". And it has nothing to do with "physics".

You want ethics research? "Treat other people like you want them to treat you."

There's your ethics. PM me and I'll tell you where to send the grant money.

[Boojatta]

9. Could you quote a claim I made to the effect that ethics research is a kind of scientific research?

What was flight research before the first successful flight by the Wright brothers?

Was it a bunch of people being paid to study birds, navel-gaze, drink coffee, write papers, and crash into the ground expensive experimental craft produced via the hard-earned dollars of those who pay taxes?

How about rocket research in the USA before the moon landing? Did any of those rockets crash? What was the total spending?

Would you oppose the existence of any government funding to finance ethics research if the people doing the research were to be paid an hourly rate of no more than one and a half times minimum wage?

[Warren DeMontague]

12. How about you give me a concrete description of what you even mean by "ethics research"

with specific examples, and then maybe I'll be able to tell you if I think it's worth anything close to what we spend on important scientific research, (which isn't enough, as it is) like physics research.

[robcon]

13. I think your idea of ethics research is awful

When you wrote, Boojatta, "Would you oppose the existence of any government funding to finance ethics research if the people doing the research were to be paid an hourly rate of no more than one and a half times minimum wage?"

I think you gave it away. You're bargaining desperately for some rationale for ethics research, and keeping people's earnings low seems to me to be a strange way to defend their output. If it's important no one would be talking about keeping wages as low as possible.

Stupid idea.

[Boojatta]

17. If any work done anywhere in the world by any unpaid volunteer

were important, then would the volunteer be paid an hourly rate of more than one and a half times minimum wage?

Do you assert that no work done anywhere in the world by any unpaid volunteer is important work?

Do you realize that there are people who are unwilling to devote themselves to unpaid work except perhaps with very restricted hours, because they feel an obligation to support themselves rather than rely on relatives, private charities, or government assistance and who may have various responsibilities that take time?

Does it occur to you that if volunteering is ever a good thing to do, then it's almost certainly a good thing to do some kinds of low-wage work, unless people who have no wisdom and no personal qualities of character for some reason have a magical ability to earn money?

Does there exist any person in the world who is doing work that is, in your opinion, actually important and actually worthwhile, yet who is paid at a rate of no more than one and a half times minimum wage?

[Kelly Rupert]

14. What the hell would "ethics research" be?

Other than a waste of cash, I mean.

(And not everything that comes out of the Pentagon is EEEVIL. The Internet, for example.)

[BlooInBloo]

15. The problem is not (a) that people don't know what's right (they do)...

... nor is the problem (b) that people have no idea what the foundations of their moral assessments are (they don't, but it doesn't make any difference).

The problem is that people KNOWINGLY choose to do bad things. No amount of research can possibly fix that.

[Boojatta]

18. Where were you when Strong Atheist was active in R/T?

He would have demanded that you prove those statements starting from the Peano postulates.

[BlooInBloo]

26. Ok - but I'd implement it with an FA instead. Perhaps Conway's Life.

[Exultant Democracy]

16. You don't need to build a super collider to unlock the secrets of ethics

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

19. Not a penny for ethics research

Unless someone can possible explain to me why one would need to do that. And what does the money go for anyway Hash Brownies?

[Boojatta]

20. How about research in a particular subject area that is often

classified as a branch of philosophy and also studied under departments of computer science and mathematics and that is known as "Logic"?

Should governments spend a penny or two for research in Logic or is that too fundamental to be practical?

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

21. I took logic in college at 9am every M,W,TH and if is

that math with no numbers I am in favor of burning the books and shooting the teachers.B-)

That said I people will always study philosophy and logic. Ethics studies are a bit of navel gazing. (I.E. is stem cell research ethical? Well try proving that with a formula.)

Honestly I am a little hard on all the soft sciences. I think government sponsored research should work toward the practical as well as the fundamental. (curing disease, helping farmers, new energy sources ect)

Sponsoring ethical and philosophical studies should come out of the same grant pool as film, literature and other arts

[Boojatta]

22. I'm talking about funding cutting-edge research in Logic.

I'm not talking about merely providing subsidies to help educational institutions teach classes in logic.

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

23. I understand that.

I just don't have a clue what a cutting edge ethics research would consist of?

I mean do you sleep with other peoples wives and track the results? Do you euthanize old people at random and see the effect on society?

Some examples would be nice. (excuse my ignorance. I know the difference between right and wrong I just don't always act on it. You know being a mammal and all.)

[Boojatta]

24. Do you know a lot more about what cutting-edge research

in Logic would consist of than you know about what cutting-edge research in ethics would consist of?

[Boojatta]

25. Again, I ask:

Do you know a lot more about what cutting-edge research in logic would consist of than you know about what cutting-edge research in ethics would consist of?

Well, do ya? Huh? Huh? Huh?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. Logic as an academic discipline is about as far from ethics as you can get.

It's an extremely pure and very abstract branch of mathematics.

Ethics, by contrast, is an extremely nebulous subject on the soft side of philosophy and sociology.

[Boojatta]

35. How would you describe logic as an academic discipline in 600 BC?

How did it go from that state to its current state if not by means of the efforts of people who devoted time to the development of logic as an academic discipline?

[Boojatta]

27. Kick

[Swamp Rat]

28. After reading some of the responses and seeing the votes,

I now think MORE funds should be spent on ethics research, especially in the so-called "hard sciences" where unethical practices are commonplace.

[porphyrian]

29. We need ethics practice, not ethics research.

Physics research continuously produces new discoveries which can be applied to any number of things (even if governments tend to apply them to weapons' development first). Ethics research is only necessary when new applications arise, which seldom happens without precedent, if at all. What we need is to actually practice ethics and to correct the thinking that they somehow don't apply to those in positions of power.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Damn straight!

I put in an RO1 because I wanted $300,000 for a new EthEx M4000 Ethics Spectrometer, and the fuckers didn't fund me.

[Boojatta]

32. Final kick

[LSK]

33. as someone with an Engineering Degree, most Engineering is based on Physics

That would include Engineering things like solar cells, electric cars, nanotechnology, etc.

THINGS THAT ARE GOOD FOR HUMANITY.

Do not equate physics = building weapons. That is such a false red herring its not even funny.

F=MA.

[Boojatta]

34. Condoms might be good for humanity.

Are there government subsidies for condom research? It is conceivable that there are unknown ways to make them more effective or more inexpensive.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. I don't know.

Condoms are already pretty effective and pretty cheap. If you got an idea on how to make them cheaper and more effective, feel free to apply for a grant.

That said, the government does provide money for condom education, thus making them more effective. And money for free condoms, thus making them cheap.

Then of course there's the millions the government spends on HIV/AIDS research.

[LSK]

37. its the establishment of the development of modern techonology based on condoms?

Thanks for the red herring thou.

[Boojatta]

38. Research is funded from what remains after paying for living expenses.

Condoms are one tool for restricting population increase and thus restricting the rate of increase of living expenses.

[Boojatta]

39. Usually those who write for an hourly wage begin by signing

a contract that gives the copyrights to the person or organization that is paying the wages.

Given that the people pay the taxes that are used to fund some scientific research and associated writing, why isn't such scientific research writing made available free of copyrights for the American people to copy and quote at will?