Is the term "Good German" applicable to DUers? To how many?

[bryant69]

Just out of curiousity.

The Term Good German refers to someone who tacitly stands by and by his or her silence enables an atrocity. For example during WW2 there were many Germans who stood aside and allowed/enabled the holocaust. And there are those who feel the term is equally applicable to those who stand aside and by their silence allow or enable the Iraq Meatgrinder.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[BOSSHOG]

1. I'm not quite clear

on the question/issue but I would consider myself a good German, my father's side is mostly German heritage but I was born 9 years after WWII ended. Back two generations from me lived in this country.

[Bicoastal]

2. Ok, I must have taken stupid pills this morning....

What's a "Good German?"

[bryant69]

4. It means a person who looks aside while an atrocity is being committed, tacitly enabling it. n/t

[Bicoastal]

14. Thanks, both of you.

Man, that's a difficult thing to judge. If you take the expression to the extreme, not just all DU'ers but all AMERICANS are Good Germans.

We always could have done more to the stop the war, every last one of us. Who really knows what one of us could have done that COULD have prevented it...

Too philosophically complex for me. I'm not voting,

[bobbolink]

19. That's the problem... it's NOT all about the war!

Look how many liberals and DUers know about the extreme poverty in this country, and how few are actually involved in doing anything about it.

That's being a "good German".... knowing it exists, and shrugging it away.

And, a big part of that is so many who thing the war is the ONLY issue, while more people are actually dying of poverty IN THIS COUNTRY, than are dying in Iraq.

[Bicoastal]

26. But every one of us could ALWAYS be doing more.

That's what makes a label like that so difficult to apply to someone else--without directing it at yourself first.

[bobbolink]

28. Not necessarily. Some of us are giving everything we have.

BUT... it isn't like it was in the 60's and 70's, where we all were concerned about ALL issues.

People now seem to have their own pet issues, and that's all that counts. It's so easy to get involved exclusively with just war, for instance, because it's popular, and that's where you get lots of pats on the back, and have a good time.

Poverty isn't "sexy", so it gets lost in the shuffle. And, yes, people NEED to have it put in their face. After all, there is so much that can be done with 15 minutes of calls or letters every week!

"without directing it at yourself first."

That's why I quoted:

"Let there be peace, and let it begin with me."

Introspection is ALWAYS important, if we want to actually establish a new society, as opposed to just replacing the current regime with another one.

That introspection seems to be quite loathed by this current generation.

[FiveGoodMen]

8. Here ya go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Germans

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. A Person Who Places Fidelity To Group Over Principle

eom

[bobbolink]

32. Very important concept!

It's what's behind so much of the anger and warfare on DU... when does the country come before the party?

I'm not sure if I see the connection with "good German", but it's an issue that needs a lot more RATIONAL discussion!

:hi:

[MADem]

12. It means a person who goes along with the program, even when there's a massive amount

of cognitive dissonance in so doing.

You ignore the 'bad stuff' because you happen to like one important-to-you aspect of a person or situation, even when the bad stuff is pretty fucking bad.

You suspend criticism/cease thinking logically because you're invested emotionally in supporting an idea, or opposing a contrary idea.

[orpupilofnature57]

3. Whats a bad or good German Exactly??

[bryant69]

6. I apologize, see above.

There've been so many posts on the subject I just assumed.

[MADem]

13. You're now asking for Iraq War Good Germans, then?

Solely on that one issue?

How about Amahdinijad Good Germans? A few of those here, too...

[bryant69]

15. I used that as an example. I didn't mean to eliminate other possible uses of the term n/t

[DS1]

7. anyone arguing the benefit of common sense and law and order

[orpupilofnature57]

10. Gottcha!! thanks

[DS1]

5. Ich Bin Robinsoner!

[Lilith Velkor]

11. Some German bloke used to post here.

I think his name was Dirk. He seemed alright.

[Marrah_G]

16. IBTL n/t

[backscatter712]

17. The threshold for not being a Good German is low IMHO.

Ever been to an anti-war protest? Ever write anything online condemning the war? Ever say something to anyone at all condemning our administration? You're not a Good German.

I don't think we should be demanding high levels of heroism here.

[bobbolink]

20. So, war is the only issue on your radar?

[backscatter712]

24. Of course not.

I do appreciate the reminder.

The creation of the surveillance state really bugs the hell out of me - I've protested that, I've given money to the EFF to fight things like warrantless wiretapping.

Hell, the recent spate of police brutality and suppression of peaceful protest bugs me.

Then there's Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, extraordinary rendition; Blackwater; the mess our economy's become, the potential for a REX 84 scenario, etc.

I have an enormous list of things that are going wrong in this country, courtesy of *, and I can't keep track of it all.

It's all gone wrong, hasn't it? :(

[bobbolink]

25. As I said in reply to another post, when it comes to poverty in the US,

most all DUers and most all "liberals" are "good Germans". They know the issue is there, they know, especially after Katrina, just how deadly it is, but.... most can't be bothered.

Iv'e been told to my face that the only issue now is the war, and poverty "will have to wait."

So, many of us die, and that's just fine.

Yup, "good Germans" are alive and well.

And, yes, I agree...."It's all gone wrong, hasn't it?"

It's a hell of a mess.

The biggest part is that people don't seem to care much about each other anymore.

:cry:

[backscatter712]

29. Like I said, the threshold for not being one should be low.

I try to do something to make the world better. I picked things like ending the war in Iraq, preventing a war with Iran, curtailing the surveillance state, etc. There's so many issues, poverty included, but I can only do something about so many of them. Same goes for everyone else.

I'm not saying your issues or anyone's issues, like poverty, the mess from Katrina, or Darfur (another sorely neglected humanitarian and human rights disaster) are less valid. I'm just saying I can only do so much.

So all I can promise is that I will do something. That's all anyone can promise.

[bobbolink]

31. "I'm just saying I can only do so much."

And what I'm pointing out is that EVERYONE says that, and almost EVERYONE picks the war.

Look at what that is doing.

That's what I'm asking "liberals" to do..... look carefully at those choices, and the results.

[FiveGoodMen]

30. Well, let's think about that

You can always give money to various organizations that help the poor and maybe you can even quit your job and join such an org.

But for the most part, to get any positive changes in things like poverty, social justice, the environment, etc what you do is pressure your elected reps to change the law. Or you give money to a group that will do that.

So if you want to fix the situation now, you remind the guy who introduced the "Clear Skies Initiative" about the importance of taking care of the planet or you remind the guy whose base is the "Haves and the HaveMores" about the need to think about those less fortunate.

Then you wake the fuck up and realize that until you get that MFer out of power your aren't going to do a god-damned thing for the rest of the world because he's the current decider. So you try very hard to get the government back so that you can do those other things -- all the while taking arrows in the back from the self-righteous.

[bobbolink]

33. I follow you. At least, I think I do. And that's why I keep asking people to

write/call their Rep. in support of HR2895, and HR676, etc.

Yet, even though it only takes a minute to do that, most can't be bothered.

If everyone at DU would call in support of HR2895, it would make a huge difference.

And not cost anything.

[FiveGoodMen]

34. I went looking ... Betty McCollum (my rep) is a cosponsor of HR2895

but I don't see her name on HR676. 676 certainly sounds good, but this is the first I've heard of it. Is it competing with any similar proposals? Has there been much press on it?

I'm asking because I'd like to sound like I know what I'm talking about when I write to Betty and if someone's already picked it apart that'd help. (I know I can read the full text, but whether I can foresee the implications, I don't know. Besides which, I don't know if there's a similar bill that's fighting for the same turf.)

What can you tell me?

[bobbolink]

35. Thank you for asking, and pleeeeez write/call Rep. McCollum and thank her!

I really appreciate knowing that your rep has signed onto HR2895! Really, that lifts my spirits, and I appreciate you looking it up. Now, please send her thanks, because that's just as important. Remember, she will get lots of negative for having signed, and needs to know her constituents support her. Get as many in your district to thank her as you can. :hi:

As for HR676, what I can tell you is that it is Conyers bill, and is THE most comprehensive bill on health care! I'm an Edwards supporter, but I believe we have to work on Edwards to go for HR676, although I do think he's already there, just has a different way of implementing it.

Now, for the rest of your question. You can probably google Hr676 and get the basics. I'm going to refer you to the national physicians site, because they have a lot of good info. This page has some info on working for 676, which I think might be helpful to you:
http://www.pnhp.org/resolution/
On the left side of the page is more info about single-payer in general, which might be what you're looking for.

As for something that has "picked it apart", on this page are two newspaper articles which speak against single payer (although I want you to know this is specifically about the Colorado proposal, written by Dr. Rocky White, which isn't HR676), and their rebuttals:
http://www.healthcareforallcolorado.org/

And last but not least, I'm going to once again post the video which I really like, by a Stanford student, and hope that you will pass it around to all on your email list:
www.grahamazon.com/sp/whatissinglepayer.php

I think what I will also do is alert DUer Cleita, because she is so very knowledgeable about 676, and can maybe give you more references.

Also... have you seen SICKO? Michael Moore is in support of HR676, and you might get more from that movie, too.

Thanks again for asking, and I hope that this helps.

Happy reading! :)

Bobbie

[Marr]

18. Joe Lieberman would probably call anyone who doesn't support invading Iran

a "good German", in some way. Neocons argued that Iraq invasion critics were 'indifferent to Iraqi suffering', making them something like "good Germans". Without defining the group being conformed to or the principal being transgressed, the term means nothing.

This question is far to vague to answer.

[Wilber_Stool]

21. It was the world

that closed its' eyes to the atrocities, not simply the Germans.

[bobbolink]

22. A big part of what I see missing is a willingness to look at our own complicity.

DUers mostly want to blame the RW for EVERYTHING, and miss just how much we add to the lack of peace.

"Let there be peace, and let it begin with me."

[cali]

23. You forgot "anyone that doen't agree with me

is a good german"

[lips]

27. As well as being in the 88-125 age range...