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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 02:57 PM
Original message
"Dirtying up" the "Good German"
Good Germans
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For the film, see The Good German

“Good Germans” is a phrase that originally referred to citizens of Nazi Germany who, after Germany’s defeat in World War II, claimed not to have supported the regime, yet made no claim to have opposed it in any significant way. This was widely noted by Allied occupation troops, who were amazed and appalled by the widespread disavowal of responsibility for Nazi crimes among the German populace. For example:

It is a saying among our troops that there are no real Nazis in Germany, only “good Germans.” Every crime Germany committed against humanity seems to have been done by someone else.<1>

The term has come to be used to refer more generically to people in any country who observe reprehensible things taking place — whether done by a government or by another powerful institution — but remain silent, neither raising objections nor taking steps to change the course of events.



Over the past two days, various people on this board have responded negatively to the use of the label "Good Germans" as a description of the creeping acquiesence of Americans to the police state tactics of our current regime. And, these peoples' reaction has been telling for how far they have had to reach to try to muddy the clear meaning of this term.

Yesterday, one of the techniques of undermining this term was to go on at length about how badly the FBI handled the Waco and Ruby Ridge incidents, as if to imply that things were worse in America in 1992 than today. We were referred to Wikipedia for a supposedly(I have no time to check cites on everything that goes by) independent view of the Waco incident, so that we would all shake our heads in shame. In fact, yesterday, many people called those anti-FBI posts "right wing conspiracy theory" mongering and asked why they had to listen to this on DU.

Given that history, I thought it only fair to begin by giving Wikipedia's definition of "a good German". The entire entry is quoted above. You will notice that there is no controversy over the meaning of the term, and the term is not known to offend anyone. The term was coined by American soldiers. The German people spent forty years dealing with this in their own country, and they have no objection to the term.

The Wikipedia entry refers to a recent movie, "The Good German", set in postwar Germany. Does anyone really believe that, if this label was perceived as some kind of smear, this movie would not have been met with as much protest as, say, "The Last Temptation of Christ"? Anybody remember one word of protest?


----

Today, it got even worse, with someone comparing "Good German" to "Jewish Influence". I responded that this title was the purest of flamebait. Anyone following politics is aware of the huge fight over the Meersheimer(sp?) and Walt book about the so-called Israel Lobby. The term Jewish Influence sits directly at ground zero of that huge controversy.

Can this second attempt to associate the term "Good German" with some highly controversial, but completely unrelated, terminology be interpreted in any way as an attempt to enlighten DU? On the contrary, these intellectually dishonest associations are a well-known tactic in politics, called "dirtying somebody up". That is, throwing a lot of mud in the direction of a politician so his opponents will have something to attack him with, all the while pretending that they didn't invent it for exactly that purpose. One final point: usually, it is "clean" politicians that require dirtying up.

This kind of word game (you know, like Democrat Party) demonstrates how low the discussion has become at DU. This is how dirty the tactics have become at DU. And, you can be certain that people who use these tactics never apologize, they just keep attacking. I will not be suprised by how low these attacks get, but I will be saddened that they are posted on DU.

arendt

Afterword: "Righteous" outrage from those who have been "slandered" will be arriving in 10, 9, 8, 7,...seconds.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Stupid Americans refuse to acknowledge anything bad about themselves...
... anything bad is either "the other guy", or else a slanderous, vile attack. It's just the way it is - it's ingrained into the American psyche.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Good Americans
perhaps it has become time for a new phrase....
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. heh indeedy.
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. The term itself has an historical context and a specific meaning...
..I fail to see why anyone gets their knickers in a twist about it...
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. we have really lousy social sciences in secondary school -- we get our
"history lessons" from movies.

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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Oh, YOU must be talking about 'survival' under a heinous monster psychopath regime.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. That went right by me. Care to make it clear? n/t
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. You didn't catch that one?
I can't speak to the poster's POV, but mostly what causes "Good Germans" is a well defined penalty for interfering with the dictatorial Gov't. In other words, only the silent and enablers are left alive in the wake of something like Nazi Germany...poor them. The dead usually get treated better.
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. That was one of two ways to read it. (The irony around here can get deep.)
Edited on Mon Sep-24-07 08:15 PM by arendt
Thanks.

In response - America has not yet reached the point where there are DEFINED penalties that are RIGIDLY enforced.

We are in that pre-totalitarian phase, where limits are being cautiously pushed. In this phase, resistance makes a
difference and one has some chance of surviving.

So, if that is what the OP means, his point is premature. If there were defined penalties, everyone at DU (except
the infiltrators) would be in a camp already.

arendt
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Oh, I think things are a tad beyond that
Edited on Mon Sep-24-07 09:11 PM by Hydra
They've made it clear to the people paying attention- threats to shut down the net and those camps, for instance. I'm already on the blacklist though, so I'm still shouting from the highest towers.

Let us eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we could die.

----------
on edit

And I supposed he could be missing a sarcasm tab, but I didn't get that impression :evilgrin:
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. i haven't opened one ''good german'' thread.
especially since i felt NO OUTRAGE at what happened at waco or ruby ridge.

glad i have resisted -- things get pretty loony sometimes around here.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. I did not respond because it appeared clear to me there was NO intention to,...
,...enlighten or inform but rather to divert and dilute the previous honest discussion about the current state of our own nation.
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Ripley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. Hello and HELL YEAH!
Edited on Mon Sep-24-07 03:12 PM by Ripley
Lots of muddying about. Lots of denial. Lots of twisted explanations to deflect and distract the real issues here.

I tried to point out that the term "Good German" can be used to define current behavior by many Americans without it directly being an equivalent to the original use of the term which describes people who unfortunately allowed their Government to follow the insane steps toward the Final Solution. Of course there is no EXACT equivalent here!

But the similarities are striking. The slow creep of acceptance of Government Abuse by the honest and good people of Germany that just wanted to be safe for themselves and their families is what is similar. I do not harbor hatred towards German people. Many do. They think they had a character flaw inherent in their genes or perhaps geographical location that allowed them to pretend it wasn't happening in their country.

Irony meter is redlining.



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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. Well I'm in favor of supporting Congressional Democrats
I think Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid make more sense than the collective wisdom of DU.

That makes me a "Good German" to some.

And yet somehow I go on living with myself.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I hear you, but that's a little off the point. The thread is about the meaning of the term,...
Edited on Mon Sep-24-07 03:15 PM by arendt
not about who it is used against.

My problem is that this situation is like being told that calling someone a "liar" is the same as calling him a "n****r" or a "k*ke". It is an attempt to suppress the meaning of a perfectly clear and uncontroversial term.

arendt
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. It is semantically similar to calling them a Nazi, however.
Or someone who looks the other way during an atrocity.

I suppose that like "liar" or "racist" it should be saved for those situations you are absolutely sure - because the term ends discussion - once you call me a "Good German," I'm fucking done with you. And I'd be surprised if I was the only one who felt that way.

Bryant
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. The term ends discussion when MIS-applied to something like choosing a candidate.
The term is meant for day-to-day, face-to-face situations, where you witness someone being treated outrageously - often by the police - and you do nothing.

If you were in that situation, would you think that being called a Good German was completely out of line?

Just trying to gauge a level here.

thanks for responding.

arendt
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Well if you and me are standing there and see a cop doing somethign
and afterwards you call me a good German I'll wonder why you didn't step in, yourself.

Bryant

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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Perfectly correct usage of the term. That's all I'm asking for. I think we agree.
People have gotten so sloppy with language that all they can do is name-calling. Hence, Good German becomes just another epithet. And that's what happened to you.

Democracy depends on people being halfway decent with language. The growing illiteracy and lack of historical awareness is one of the biggest underminers of democracy. Ten years ago I went to a town meeting about a waste dump. It wasn't a debate, it wasn't even a discussion. It was more like a high school football game where the two sides shouted slogans at each other. And this was in an affluent, educated town.

----

Pedantic mode ON

In re your first post, if I were to dislike your support of Pelosi and Reid, it would be semantically correct to say that they were "bought", or "sell-outs", or "cowards"; and that you were "misled", "propagandized", or "had your loyalty abused".

Saying you are a Good German for supporting a certain politician is a "category error". (and an insult).

Pedantic mode OFF

arendt
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. I think people's feathers get ruffled when they are caught having opinions that
aren't straight-up liberal. It confuses them, and they get defensive about it, and their defensiveness makes them attack you for making them look at how in some things they are conservative. Or, their thinking changes depending on whose ox is being gored—like the story of the flight attendant who wanted to tell the man watching a September 11 dvd on the plane, on his personal dvd player, to turn it off because it was bothering her. RIght on! commenters cheered. How thoughtless the public is not to consider the sensitivity of airline workers! Yay! Another passenger told him to "turn that m'fer off!" Right on again!!

It's fascinating. People don't like it pointed out when they are being inconsistent. Some people laugh ruefully and go, oh geez, you're right. Others feel like they lose face, and go nuts when that happens.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. No outrage here.
Edited on Mon Sep-24-07 04:17 PM by cali
I'm not even remotely surprised to see this piece. I disagree with your interpretation of ....everything. You're projecting like mad, and playing rhetorical tricks by setting it up so that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, but I'm just not that interested in your opinion on any of this.

Peace.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
20. Would this be similar to ...
...calling the DLC Democrats who cooperate with the Bush* regime "VichyDems"?
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arendt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Well, at least that is not a category error. That is politician-to-politician comparison. n/t
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-24-07 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
21. big k and r -- will check in later...
have to run out to a social function...

arendt rocks!

hey ripley!

:hi:
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