Anonymous & the Primaries

[H2O Man]

Michael Scheuer, the man who headed the CIA’s Usama bin Laden group for many years, was on HBO’s "Real Time" this weekend. He authored two books that should be of interest to citizens of the United States, as we consider our options in the upcoming 2008 elections. When they were first published, both books were attributed to "Anonymous."

The first book was "Through Our Enemies’ Eyes" (2002). I would recommend the revised 2006 edition. The second book was "Imperial Hubris" (2004). I think it is worth listing three quotes, the first from his first book, and the second two from his second book. Recognizing the value of his books should not be mistaken for taking a position on the work he did with the CIA.

Let’s look at the three quotes:

{1}"Ten years after the CIA began to analyze, track, and attack bin Laden and his organization, US leaders of both parties continue to tell the citizenry that bin Laden and Sunni militants are attacking America for who we are, what we think, how we live, and not for what we do in the Muslim world. A decade ago, our leaders might have been given the benefit of the doubt for failing to understand the motivation of our enemy. Today, they merit no such indulgence from American citizens. They merit only scorn and contempt. President George W. Bush, Senator John Kerry, Vice President Dick Cheney, Senator John McCain, Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, Senator Hillary Clinton, Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former President Bill Clinton, and their print and electronic media acolytes are, quite simply, lying to Americans. The motivation of these leaders to lie is not for me to say; I cannot see into their hearts and minds. On the basis of easily accessible evidence, however, that they are lying is irrefutable." (page x of preface to revised edition; Through Our Enemies’ Eyes)

{2} "While there may be a few militant Muslims out there who would blow up themselves and others because they are offended by McDonald’s restaurants, Iowa’s early presidential primary, and the seminude, fully pregnant Demi Moore on Esquire’s cover, they are exactly that: few, and no threat at all to US national security. The focused and lethal threat posed to US national security arises not from Muslims being offended by what America is, but rather from their plausible perception that the things they most love and value – God, Islam, their brethern, and Muslim lands – are being attacked by America. What we as a nation do, then, is the key factor in our confrontation with Islam" (page 9; Imperial Hubris)

{3} "America is hated and attacked because Muslims believe they know precisely what the United States is doing in the Islamic world. They know partly because of bin Laden’s words, partly because of satellite television, but mostly because of the tangible reality of US policy. We are at war with an al Qaeda-led. Worldwide Islamist insurgency because of and to defend those policies, and not, as President Bush has mistakenly said, ‘to defend freedom and all that is good and just in the world.’

"To recognize the validity of this point, always keep in mind how easy it is for Muslims to see, hear, experience, and hate the six US policies bin Laden repeatedly refers to as anti-Muslim:

--US support for Israel that keeps Palestinians in the Israeli’s thrall.
--US and other Western troops on the Arabian Peninsula,
--US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.
--US support for Russia, India, and China against their Muslim militants.
--US pressure on Arab energy producers to keep oil prices low.
--US support for apostate, corrupt, and tyrannical Muslim governments." (pages 240-241, Imperial Hubris)

How does this line up with the positions being taken by politicians in both the democratic and republican in the presidential primaries?

[H2O Man]

1. Okay, one at a time!

How the heck am I supposed to respond to everyone being quiet at once? Huh?

[Annces]

2. I can tell this is out of my league

So I can't really add anything of value.

[PA Democrat]

3. "They hate us for our freedoms!"

Oh wait, we are seeing a reduction of our freedoms and yet the numbers of people who would do us harm have increased.

I think that many politicians know that that meme is not true, but are afraid to speak the truth because the right will label them as "America haters". As usual, it's about allowing the right to frame the debate.

[zippy890]

4. I haven't heard any other candidates, Democratic or Republican

really address these issues in any way that is significantly different
form the US policy now.

maybe others here know more - I would love to hear from someone a more enlightened
view than the Cheney/Lieberman position on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

Have any of the candidates even recognized the problem of the displaced 2 million Iraqis over the past few years?

you are right, i think, the silence is deafening. Though I would like to be proven wrong.

[Annces]

5. Well to add

a thought. I have not really heard the candidates discussing the Why of 9-11, except that we cannot pull out of Iraq without a plan. As for why people in the Middle East have hatred toward America, I do understand that, because we are an intruder onto their sovereignty. And I think 9-11 was some sort of culmination of seething anger because of them feeling out of control. I don't think God necessarily plans for us to progress in a peaceful way.

[Me.]

6. Michael Scheuer Is A Conundrum

When you see him interviewed, mostly on Faux, he comes off as being very pro-Republicon, yet his writing and analysis is most sane and hits the target very directly.

As for the positions taken by politicians, it can no longer be assumed that our 'leaders' want what is best for the country. Everything has been warped by a desire for political gain or political ideology. In a way, if you go by PNAC, Bin Laden gave these folks exactly what they wanted most, a jihad pf their own which gave them leave to do anything they wanted and not limited to destroying the very things they are said to be defending. It couldn't have worked out better for those project for a new American century folk if they had planned it.

As for the Islamists, they've said what's bugging them but we refuse to pay attention. As to want they, the bin laden group want, some of it has been valid, some of it not. For example, in the case of Iran, our meddling with the government there, and the Shah of Iran business. That worked out really well for us hasn't it? The problem with all zealots is they want it all. And just like with the religious right, their desires will never be sated, they will keep wanting more and more. There are no compromises. So as long as they keep calling for the destruction of Israel and Israel continues too occupy Palestine, this will all continue.

I was surprised to see a representative of the Royal Iranian Family on television this morning. I thought, boy are they living in dreamland. But that is the point. Everyone is trying to hold onto what was and no one lets go of the past. The Shah's family is awaiting the day they will ascend the throne again, the fundies want to live in 1950, racists want to return to a time when they could hang nooses from a tree and some in the US want a new version of the cold war. It's all so last century but the grip is cold and deadly, having nothing to do with the better half of our natures.

Hi Jim :hi:

[H2O Man]

7. Oh, he is.

He's a republican. And I'm confident, from his co-workers' responses to him, that he is likely not the type of fellow that many of us would want to hang out with. But he is worth reading and listening to when he discusses the Middle East and US policy.

[Me.]

8. Kicking

To keep this up in the midst of the Ahmadineajad craze

[H2O Man]

9. Thank you

for kicking it when it was down, and for understanding why I posted it!

[Me.]

25. One Good

:kick: deserves another

[blondeatlast]

19. Anyone who's had experience in the field and the region is worth a listen even

if we may fundamentally disagree on politics with them.

The problem is that we have our policies dictated by poiitics--not by experts with real knowledge of the intricacies of the situations that can come up.

For the neocons, the aftereffects don't matter at all--they got precisely what they wanted in Iraq--a war. they just wanted the war--how long it lasts doesn't matter. that's how they can claim success--they got exactly what they were after.

[Nickster]

33. What I got from Imperial Hubris is that he can pinpoint the bad policy decisions and what is not

working, but his "solutions" appear to be very bloodthirsty for a lack of a better term. He essentially seems to think that we don't have the guts to do the dirty work that needs to be done in his eyes. I liked his book very much, but his "solutions" not so much.

[H2O Man]

36. Valid point.

He takes a stark position: either the US makes radical changes in its policies in the Middle East, or it will have to engage in an extremely violent "solution." And I agree with you -- that second option that he makes note of is bloodthirsty.

[puebloknot]

27. When I see Scheuer on television, I have to grit my teeth and remember ...

... not to kill the messenger.

He comes across as a doughy, anal "Ken Starr" type, and it is only with reluctance and great focus that I have to acknowledge much of what he has to say. I can't tell if he's schizophrenic, or I am!

It is our own bad behavior, and not our vast freedoms and our designer clothing, that has militant Muslims up in arms. We have set up our tents and are camping in their back yard, without even a permit. I have always felt that the "Terrorist Threat" is greatly akin to the Wiz behind the curtain, keeping adolescent America "marching as to war."

[H2O Man]

28. I believe that many of

those who worked with and around Michael found him to be self-centered and without social skills. And those were the people who liked him. Still, even the people who found him to be a pompous ass recognized that he had a good grasp of the problems between the US and the Islamic world.

[puebloknot]

34. I've spent a lot of time in my life with physicists -- and dating one for a time.

I know they're brilliant. They built the bomb and took us to the moon. We owe a lot of scientific marvels to them, and some of them are quite philosophical about where we came from, why we are here. I worked in a university physics department with 22 physicists; 18 of them had or were on their way to a divorce when I started working in the department.

Social skills are optional in a lot of fields. A friend used to say, "Beware of the one-book man"! I guess it depends on the book ... and the man!

[Swamp Rat]

10. The "war" is really taking place right here in America.

And unless we remove the republicans and the DLC from power, We the People will lose.

[flashl]

11. We are consumers of McD politics

With nicely packaged candidates and neat color coded messages.

[mopinko]

12. .

[blm]

13. He shouldn't have listed Kerry in there - JKs record is exposing terror networks

and he has said it's a law enforcement issue and was mocked continuously for it.

Kerry has also called the "War on Terror" a public relations ploy.

In an effort to lump ALL the leading Dems and Rs together - Scheurer went too far.

Come clean, Scheurer - still trying to drag Kerry under because he exposed CIA drugrunning and arms dealing that you all were doing for Poppy Bush?

[yardwork]

21. I agree with you, and it's not because of partisanship.

I don't know or care what political candidates say each and every time they're on the campaign trail. I do know what John Kerry has done, and how that record was and is twisted by Republicans and their allies in the media.

It's a lie that Democrats and Republicans are equally to blame for this misinformation.

[TahitiNut]

14. Our abysmal failure to take responsibility for the harm we've caused ...

... both under the banner of corporate exploitation and outrageously biased political alignments is appalling. The pretense that "they hate us for our freedoms" would, in a reasonably sentient society, be rightly greeted with derisive laughter and outrage at being treated as stupid. Instead, we swallow that horse shit and lick our lips and ask for more.

As though the clear symbolism of the WTC and Pentagon isn't sufficient, we continue to get our bowels in a twist over the politically-peddled specter of having theme parks, shopping centers, and children's playgrounds bombed by those "evil-doers."

When I simply compare the incredible degree to which one 'side' or the other LIES to me, I'm sure not inclined to trust our own political leadership. Not at all.

[formercia]

15. How can you look into someones heart?

when they have none.

[Hydra]

16. I love how people, even here, think it's all about "the terrorists"

"Terrorists"(if you can't tell, I dislike that term due to overuse) spawn from injustices. A bigger nation tries to swallow a smaller one or to play puppeteer, and people get upset. When their lives, livelihoods and homes are taken from them, only the most complacent sit still and take it.

Given that fact, I think it's funny that people are eager to ignore what we are doing wrong in the world and say "Lock them up, give them the death penalty, send out snipers and cruise missiles, but get rid of them!!! They're a threat to all of us!!!"

What tripe. We are perfectly capable of preventing terrorist attacks, and if we were so inclined, we could stop "bombing brown people" as Carlin put it well, and get back to the business of rebuilding our nation and finding new fuels to replace oil.

:puke:

[blm]

29. Exactly - that's why Kerry has always said it's a law enforcement issue and why

Scheurer is wrong to lump him in with the others who want to use 'terror' as a reason for military action.

[Hydra]

30. I don't even think of it as a law enforcement issue

If Chinese troops were invading us, I hope at least a few of us would bomb their s*** until they went home and took their bases with them.

Sure, we'd be called "terrorists" and would be hung in the town square, but I would hope some of us would care enough to do it.

[Laurab]

17. K&R - I saw him on Real Time, too.

And, like someone else said, I would be in over my head trying to discuss where the candidates stand. I don't think a single Democratic candidate would believe or say that "they hate us for our freedoms", although maybe I'm wrong. I believe most of the repug candidates would say it, and possibly believe it.

At any rate, he did have some interesting things to say, and it is way past time for the U.S. to stop interfering in many things we have no business interfering with.

[blondeatlast]

18. I'd love to hear the candidates themselves discuss those bullet points.

I know hte relationship with Israel is off-limits, but if we really give a damn about clearing up our disaster in the Mideast we've gotta take some heavy political risk.

Kicking for more info and recing.

[eleny]

20. On his first point

How clever for our government to sucker us into being guilty for the 9/11 attack instead of it being because of its policies. They thrust the blame on us. So naturally Americans would get their backs up and start flailing around instead of asking our administration - "What the hell are you doing over there to bring them down on us?".

[blondeatlast]

31. I can't believe it took me goddamn long to see it, but you are of course correct.

I never even considered that, but you are dead right about the government blaming us. And of course the solution was up to us as well--"Go shopping. Pretend nothing is wrong and all the bad stuff will vanish. Cheer us as we bomb a city full of civilians."

:mad:

[yardwork]

22. The level of ignorance and misunderstanding in this country is very disturbing.

A great number of the U.S. populace really believes that Muslims "hate us for our freedoms" and remain willfully ignorant of the way our country is behaving worldwide.

The propaganda has worked well.

A great number of people in the U.S. also believe that global warming is a liberal myth and Spanish-speaking immigrants are to blame for loss of jobs and lack of health care in this country. Again, propaganda has worked well.

There are days when I feel very discouraged, and today is one. And I'm not too happy with CIA assholes telling me what I already know and blaming John Kerry along with Dick Cheney.

However, thank you for posting this, H2OMan. More people need to wake up and smell the coffee, as Ann used to say!

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

23. Acquiring understanding is off-limits in an empire.

We are to avoid, at all costs, our role in human generated, catastrophic events.

[tomp]

24. you have to wonder...

...what audiences he is trying to convince. no one who is even remotely acquainted with world politics and history would ever think otherwise. anyone who is not is not going to read, accept, or understand scheuer. what's the point?

his work as you portray it is at least mindful of the bilateralism of u.s. foreign policy.

"How does this line up with the positions being taken by politicians in both the democratic and republican in the presidential primaries?" vote kucinich.

[blondeatlast]

32. Regarding those points--why is Kucinich the choice? I need to be convinced and as I say upthread,

I would like to hear every candidate for president or Congress answer those points, not just the Democrats.

But I'm sincerely asking (not trying to bait you), how would DK respond to those points?

Thank you.

[druidity33]

37. see reply #35

and do check out his website. He has a good issues page with descriptions of his plans.

www.dennis4president.com


Personally I think he has a better understanding of the root causes of the ME conflicts and a firmer resolve to find a peaceful solution. I have been reading A Prayer for America and it is inspirational. A quote from the book, pg 62-63, from a speech Sept 14, 2002:

"There is much to do on the world stage. But we cannot do it by creating war when we ought to be working for peace. Iraq is not an imminent threat. But an unemployment rate which approaches 6% is an imminent threat. 41 million Americans without health insurance is an imminent threat. The high cost of prescription drugs, an imminent threat. Unregulated energy companies which charge confiscatory rates for electricity and gas are an imminent threat. Large corporations which lie about their value and deprive stockholders of their life savings constitute an imminent threat. Seniors losing their pensions. That's an imminent threat.

-snip-

We are at a critical and creative moment in human history where we have it in our power to change the world. It is about evolutionary politics which follows an evolutionary consciousness. We can do it by changing the way we look at the world. By contemplating and realizing the universal brotherhood and sisterhood of all persons. We can do it by tapping our own unlimited potential to think anew. Imagine if we could look at our nation with the same daring with which our founders gazed."

:)

[byronius]

26. K & R.

[druidity33]

35. here goes...

From Dennis Kucinich's website:
www.dennis4president.com


“We need to understand the connection between peace and the environment. We know that life on our planet is threatened by the twin threats of global warring and global warming. They are linked, and we have to understand that as we cognize the world as being interconnected and interdependent, we know that resource wars are passe and that the focus on sustainability will create peace.”


and this gem:


"World opinion, which fuels much of the terrorism against the United States and threats of terrorism, could easily be turned to America's advantage with less force and more diplomacy, undergirded by an understanding that "We share this fragile planet and are our brother's keeper." This is why I believe it is imperative that we pull our troops out of Iraq, where we are only worsening the quagmire and losing more soldiers and innocent civilians each day, and bring in UN peacekeepers for a rapid transition to Iraqi sovereignty. By reaching out and rejoining the world community, we can wage peace to simultaneously combat terrorism. The United States must develop a deep understanding of the cause-and-effect relationship between history and acts of terror. America's goodwill has been misused by previous administrations, leading to a growing divide between us and our allies and growing mistrust and hatred for the United States among the world's most oppressed populations. There is another path for this nation; it is up to us to choose it. "


establishing a Department of Peace is an aggressive attempt to deal with the worlds perception of the US, as well as contain the MIC if not sever its ties to the US gov't. As i see it there are no other candidates directly saying such things. Though i suspect Biden, Gravel or Paul might have somewhat elaborated their thoughts on the matter...

:)

[druidity33]

38. am i the only one?

Who tried to answer your question?

"How does this line up with the positions being taken by politicians in both the democratic and republican in the presidential primaries?"

Do you not consider Kucinich a viable candidate?

Moved on to other posts/threads?

[H2O Man]

39. I like Kucinich.

I appreciated your response.

I am planning to send donations to Kucinich and to Edwards today. I think that of the democratic candidates, DK is the one taking the most accurate positions on the problems between the US and the Middle East. I like Edwards, because like DK, he takes progressive stances on poverty in the US. In doing so, he helps keep the issue in the debates.

I consider Kucinich a viable candidate. I would not invest in any cause without hopes of "winning." I am an old, retired amateur boxer, who never considered defeat an option.