Question about separation of church and state and religion in school

[renie408]

My son had a band competition tonight. Before the competition, the band director had all the kid's huddle together and made them all remove their hats and sunglasses. Then he had them all lock arms and he led them in the Lord's Prayer.

I have lived in the southeast my whole life, so it didn't bother me that much. But my husband went APESHIT. We got into a discussion about whether or not it was a violation of the separation of church and state. It seems to me that it is. I am not going to pursue it because my son enjoys his school life and I have another kid coming a few years behind him. My son just stands quietly during prayers and says it doesn't bother him. Everybody knows that he does not go to church and that we don't 'do' religion.

Anyway, my husband and I were trying to figure out that IF we wanted to say something whether stuff like that is a clear violation of the separation of church and state. (we won't, even though my husband wants to. That might make me a chicken shit, I dunno)

[theredpen]

1. I assume it was a public school band

If so, then YES.

Call the ACLU.

[Caretha]

2. Call the band instructor

and politely tell him, that even though you respect he is a religious person, that he has overstepped his bounds and you would wisely advise him not to do it again.

[in_cog_ni_to]

3. YES! It's a violation of separation of church and state. I don't blame your husband for being

angry. I would have been angry too.

[angrycarpenter]

4. On school grounds that is a no-no

On the other hand in SC fighting such a thing may be more trouble than it is worth. Those good christian types can be incredibly vindictive and cruel. Especially if the local clergy would use it as ammunition in sermons to the sheeple.

[renie408]

6. Ding Ding Ding....

Right answer.

I have had to go to the school a handful of times over religious issues in the last 11 years. There was the time my son's social studies teacher read that shitty email out loud in class that says something like "86% of Americans believe in god and would appreciate it if the other 14% would just sit down and shut up". I went apeshit myself over that one. I had it out with her AND the principal. That teacher resigned not long afer that. I would like to think I had something to do with it, but I don't know. There were the times that the kids were teasing my daughter on the playground by telling her we were going to burn in hell. That led to me homeschooling her for a couple of years. I used to kid around and tell people that I was the only person in the state of SC who homeschooled because they WEREN'T a Christian.

But I am going to let this one go. My son and I are arguing about whether it is right or wrong as I write this. He loves being in the band and I am not going to do anything to interfere with that.

[pop goes the weasel]

5. You should talk to the teacher

Say something vague about how children should be given a choice as to whether or not to participate in religious practices that may not reflect what they are taught at home. While I am an atheist now, when growing up, my family's church was adamant against using the Lord's Prayer as an actual prayer. The official take was that it was an outline, not something to be mindlessly chanted. They also were very exclusivist and would have frowned on ecumenical prayer of any sort. That band director is pushing his beliefs on students who have their own--beliefs that may be in conflict with his, and he is being presumptuous in the extreme to imagine that even other Christians have the same practices and beliefs that he does.

You don't have to make a federal case of it; just gently remind the band director that not even all Christians would feel comfortable being put on the spot like he put those kids. What the band director did was a clear violation of church and state, but it's even more profoundly a violation of your trust in his neutrality. You're Southern. You know how to say it sweet. Maybe invite the band director over for coffee. Or for spaghetti. :)

[renie408]

7. At the time, I asked my son what kind of competition this was that they

needed to be delivered from evil. I was fairly shocked that he chose the Lord's Prayer. I thought I was going to have to hold my husband's tongue down with a spoon.

My son and I just discussed it and I explained our concerns. I explained how thinking that kind of thing is "OK" is how we wound up with a President who stands up during the State of the Union address and says that the US is a Christian nation.

I actually think he is going to talk to the band director himself. I told him I will run interference if he needs me to. He is a pretty independent and intelligent kid. He will probably do a better job than I would.

[trixie]

8. I guess you could just sit there

and let the right wing just quietly take over. Have you found out if any other parents are upset too? He has no right to indoctrinate your child. What gall! I'm with your husband.

[renie408]

9. Honey, I live in South Carolina. It's a little late for that.

And if you knew my son, you would know it would take a helluva sight more than a chubby band director saying the Lord's Prayer to indoctrinate him into Christianity.

Since it most directly effected him, I left it to him to decide what to do. He is going to talk to the band director. As an atheist Democrat with a genius IQ who skipped a grade, my son has a hard enough time fitting into high school here. He has a niche in the band. He is co-captain and has friends for the first time in his life. It might be shallow and it might get my Democratic merit badge taken away from me, but I am not going to do anything to endanger that.

[trixie]

15. fair enough. I love when parents let kids have a voice.

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. That's what the RW fundies bank on...people being afraid to speak out against their illegal

practices in public schools. The more they get away with it, the more they will pray. First it's at a band competition, then it will be in a classroom, then it will be before lunch, then at all sports games and before you know it we have a Christian Public School without it being named that.

[renie408]

11. I tend to agree.

I did explain to my son the same exact point you have made. At that point, he said he would talk to the band director.

I guess it is chicken hearted of me, but he just loves band. He has a sax solo and is co-captain this year. I have watched him struggle for so long with nowhere to fit in. Maybe that is exactly how they win.

I am relieved he is going to say something.

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. If I lived in SC I'd probably leave it up to my son also. If it didn't bother him, then

I'd let it go....begrudgingly. If he loves band so much and has finally found a niche, I'd be hard-pressed too to take that away. I don't blame you one bit, but I still think it's terrible what RW fundies do to Atheists, Jews, Agnostics, Buddhists, and all other non-Christian children when they isolate them by praying in their presence, on public school property, knowing full well it's illegal. Shame on them.:(

I'm happy your son has found a place to fit in. :hug: for your son and I wish him all the best.

[pop goes the weasel]

14. that's the best approach

I'm glad your son is ready to fight his own battles--with mom and dad right behind him, of course, to provide back-up.

[haele]

13. The huddle is fine, team building -

A few non-religious words of encouragement are okay. A moment of silence for the kids to either pray or otherwise get their thoughts together is okay. The Lord's Prayer? errr...this isn't a church where everyone is the same religion. It's a public school group, correct?
I'd say that if nothing else, it's defiantly an intimidating act against whomever doesn't "belong". Even if it's not overt, it's implied that if you don't believe and participate, you really aren't a team player. And that's what needs to be explained to this guy. Tell him that if he's team building, the huddle and a moment for the kids to privately pray or collect their thoughts - both actions which they shouldn't need "help" to do by now would not appear to single out any child who may not be Xtian but will still bring that team spirit. Start there.

Haele

[LWolf]

16. It's a violation.

Assuming that it's a public school and a public school event.

I believe the middle ground is the place for you to make your stand. Don't go apeshit; as you've already thought about, you've got another son coming up and you don't want to burn your bridges.

Normally, I always say talk to the teacher first. In this case, though, as a parent, I'd go to the principal. A teacher who is leading students in prayers KNOWS it is wrong, and is going to be on the defensive. He's not going to work WITH you against himself.

When you meet with the principal, be calm, understanding, and approach it as a group problem and solution. Just tell him/her that you prefer to guide your son in when and how to pray yourself, and that you know that it is a violation of the 2nd amendment for a public school to ask students to practice any one particular faith. Send the message: "I don't want to see a conflict within the school community; please quietly put a stop to this."

[renie408]

17. That was the approach my son and I discussed. I got good suggestions

from the posters here and would like to thank everybody who answered this thread.