Can someone explain to me how Clinton's health plan will help the poor?

[AllyCat]

I don't know anyone who will apply for insurance with a tax credit. Once that "tax credit" arrives in the mail, they will likely have clothes to buy for the kids, rent to pay, or a car to repair. Or some other crisis. How much money will one have to make to get this "credit" and if insurance costs thousands of dollars a year, will the credit cover it all? I doubt it.

This just screws the poor and enriches the insurance companies, again, the way I see it. Please enlighten me.

As an aside, if Congress doesn't fix the AMT this year, a family of 4 making $56K a year will have to pay AMT. I doubt they'll have much left over from their "credit" to buy insurance.

[havocmom]

1. Can I stand with you, waiting for an explanation?

If people are not making enough to pay for insurance, they aren't making enough to pay for insurance.

[CountAllVotes]

5. what if people are too poor to pay taxes

these are aka poverty level folks. How in the hell do they benefit at all? Many don't qualify for Medicaid because they might own a car or a couple of things.

Still the same, that job paying $20,000.00 a year for the family doesn't cut quite cut it.

I'd like some answers too!

This does not help those already in a Catch-22 with no health insurance. Not one tiny little bit.

:kick:

[redqueen]

14. But it helps the insurance industry... and Hillary's almost at 50% approval!

what, that's not enough for you?

PURIST!


:sarcasm:

[CountAllVotes]

30. believe me, I am not impressed

nor am I leaning that her way ....

:eyes: is right!!!!!!!

:kick:

[sandnsea]

23. It is refundable

But if you have to wait until the end of the year to get it, it's no help. And she doesn't say what percentage of income people are going to be 'required' to pay either. It's not a mandate, it's 'required'. I caught hell over that so I be sure to differentiate now. :eyes:

[Maribelle]

34. Eligibility requirements for Medicaid are changing under Hillary's plan.

More of the poor will be receiving free health insurance.

Low income workers will be eligible for a Tax Credit, which they could receive in the weekly check, just like the Earned Income Tax Credit.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

66. I have never recived an EITC...

with my any weekly check -- I have alway gotten it as part of my year-end tax return. Dunno what you are talking about. :shrug:

[Maribelle]

77. Anyone that receives EIC can receive it in their pay checks.

It's a federal law that employers have to provide this for the employee. But it's your choice.

[Hoof Hearted]

122. Yeah, but she needs to make sure that is flat on the table, cause it's not right now.

Look on a W4. Nothing about advance EIC there, only on the W2.

[CTyankee]

54. Hillary's plan says it will "strengthen Medicaid." Edwards's says "expand Medicaid".

which is why I prefer Edwards' version. Expansion to include people who were formerly not "poor enough" to qualify would qualify. The Earned Income Tax Credit would help but just a tax credit, not so much, so I agree with you there.

Single payer is byfar the best and I just can't figure out why the people haven't risen up and demanded it or say they like the employer based health care plans because they fear single payer won't give them choices.

[Maribelle]

65. Poor people not currently eligible for medicaid because they don't have children.

There are many people that fall into this category.

[CTyankee]

82. Does Hillary's plan address this group?

I seem to recall that this question was asked of her and she said that they would be covered.

[Maribelle]

84. Yes ...

From Page 10:

Strengthening Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program to Serve
All Low-Income Individuals:

These programs serve over 55 million Americans, and have done so successfully through federal-state and private-public collaborations. The holes in this safety net (e.g., lack of coverage of poor, childless adults) will be fixed to ensure that the most vulnerable populations receive affordable, quality care. Similarly, the other part of the safety net, like public hospitals and community health centers, will continue to receive support to serve vulnerable populations.

[Liberal In Texas]

112. Exactly. It's the same as school vouchers. If your are too poor to send your

kid to a private school, vouchers aren't going to help. The vouchers are only gimmies for the wealthy. Like a rebate.

This is a corporatist plan. HC is a corporatist.

Read Palast, "Armed Madhouse".

[AllyCat]

115. Reading it now. Haven't gotten to that part yet that I can think of

I'm in the "Network" chapter.

[Richard Steele]

2. No, no one can explain how it does that, because it doesn't. nm

[supernova]

3. No, you have it exactly right

Tax credits do absolute jack shit if you don't have the $$ to start with.

[rucky]

4. because they'll have insurance

and then get to keep their job.

:eyes:

[PA Democrat]

6. I don't think it was ever intended to help the poor.

[AllyCat]

11. She said on Ed Schulz today that it would help and would make it better

for us by keeping them out of the emergency room (valid point, but I don't see how that will happen with her plan).

On edit: she said that EVERYONE will have insurance under her plan and that means the poor too.

[Maribelle]

20. How it will happen - - a lot of the poor use the emergency room as their primary care physician.

Eligibility requirements for receiving Medicaid and S-Chips will change, allowing a lot more poor people and more children free health insurance. They can use this to go to the doctor's office when they are less sick, instead of the emergency room when they are terribly sick. The hospitals will not be padding the bills of people like me, attempting to recoup the losses from the poor people that could not pay.

[sandnsea]

22. They don't understand

They don't know what it is to use dish soap for shampoo or add water to a ketchup bottle or juggle bills to keep the power and phone on. They don't know there's no money to pay the insurance premium and that you can't wait a year for a tax credit. They just don't get it.

[Maribelle]

26. Hillary will be changing the qualification criteria for Medicaid.

More poor people will be receiving free health insurance. Hillary gets it.

[sandnsea]

33. Like how they fixed college

Nothing will change. You'll just think it did.

[OzarkDem]

108. Details, details

we need more details. Just how much does she plan to change Medicaid and for whom?

[bobbolink]

21. RIGHT! Just like her husband's welfare deform was never intended to help poor folk, mostly women.

Some of whom died because of it.

:cry:

But, that matters not to the Triangulators.

[Whisp]

50. right on, bobbolink

[bobbolink]

51. Thank you, and welcome to DU, Whisp!

:toast: :bounce: :toast:

There are so many cheerleaders for the Clintons who don't give a damn WHO died... as long as Bill and sHill are adored.

I'm glad you weren't taken in by it.

Mind if I ask how you found out the facts? It certainly wasn't publicized.


Oh, and Bill says the only change he would make now is that he should have gone for welfare deform FIRST. So, clearly, the deaths and suffering trouble him not. He didn't even care enough to TRACK the people to find out what happened to them!

[Whisp]

57. please check your PM. and thanks for the welcome. ;) nt

[bobbolink]

58. I'm sorry you felt so intimidated that you deleted your post.

that's why people like me have given up.

We simply can't keep going and trying to fight it without support.

We're afraid, too.

[Whisp]

62. I still have to get my sea legs around here.

but some of the stuff here scares the crap out of me and I want to be around for a while and not sure what the rules are and what I am free to say.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

Pretty much just avoid personal insults..

That will get you through over 90% of the rules..

[Liberal In Texas]

121. Another welcome. I came here after the debacle of '04. Watching a sure victory go down the tubes.

I was looking for kindred spirits.

The GD is a tough place, but there are many other groups/forums here. So many that I haven't even tasted them all. So many, it's like pretty much impossible.

So, welcome. Put the gloves on for GD and we'll see you later!

[Greyhound]

133. "I want to be around for a while and not sure what the rules are and what I am free to say"

that says volumes in itself. Welcome to the asylum.

Of all the candidates she is the one I fear most. She has no plan to deal with the reality of what is coming and her failure may well result in yet another right turn in American politics. She would be the first woman President and could end up ensuring that she is the last in our lifetimes.

She is so concerned with the games of DC politics that she seems completely unaware of what is really happening to our nation. She just doesn't get it.

Hell, maybe she is really running a stealth campaign, she'll take their money to get into office and then turn on them. Yeah, I know but unless things change pretty drastically, that is the best hope I can offer.

[Mythsaje]

7. LOL...

It helps the POOR insurance companies...silly.

[Warpy]

8. Those tax credits are supposed to limit the percentage of income

the "poor" have to pay for their insurance. Unfortunately, with insurance plans above $20,000 a year for a family plan and incomes for the working poor not much above that, there is no way they can possibly afford for profit insurance on for profit's terms. Tax credits won't do it. They need that money to feed and shelter themselves, not fatten CEOs.

Other things that plan didn't address are the retroactive cancellation of policies when claims are submitted due to errors in applications and the delay and outright denial of care.

This is a plan nobody is going to love. The insurance companies don't want to insure sick people, so they'll scream. Sick people know the insurance companies are going to try to chisel them out of care, so they'll scream. Only the people who are already insured and who are lucky enough to be healthy will accept this plan as it leaves their illusions of both choice and coverage intact.

[Maribelle]

24. More of the poor will be eligible forMedicaid. More Low income children will be eligible for S-Chips

The poor will receive health insurance paid for by the government. Low-income parents will not have to buy the "family" plan if their children qualify for S-Chips. Premium payments for parents will be capped at a percentage of their income, not counting Tax Credits!

[bobbolink]

Riiighhtttt.... and what happens to the over 300,000 who were kicked off last year?

She couldn't even hold the line on kicking MORE POOR PEOPLE off Medicaid, but she's going to magically open it up to more people????

That's quite an Aladdin's lamp...

[Maribelle]

39. Those kids will be back on, and even more will be eligible.

The line was not hers to hold when those kids got kicked off. That was entirely Bush's disgrace.

[bobbolink]

43. Since you assume it was "kids", you don't know what I'm talking about.

Of COURSE it was "her line to hold".

She's a Senator.

She can do that.

I'm so sick of everything being *, when our Dems are complicit!

Then we reward their complicity by handing them a higher office?

:wtf:

[Maribelle]

44. 300,000 kids were kicked off S-Chips by Bush.

You must have tunnel vision.

[bobbolink]

47. You must have delusions.

You wanna call names, I can do the same.

The congress passed a bill called "Deficit Reduction Act", which kicked off people of ALL ages from Medicaid.

Also SSI.

[Maribelle]

67. You responded to my post that mentioned S-Chips.

try rereading the thread

So perhpas we are talking about 600,000 then.

[bobbolink]

94. YOU try rereading. You said both Medicaid and S-Chips.

I spoke about Medicaid.

Your tone so matches sHill's.

And, yes, it could well be 600,000. Just like with Bill cutting people off welfare, they didn't care enough to even be willing to track them, and find out how many died.

It just doesn't matter, as long as they get their medical lobbyist's $$$$.

[qanda]

9. I'm wondering when Hillary Clinton ever said she cared about the poor

[rucky]

13. She did a (pretty well-done) ad about "the invisible"

or something like that.

[Zodiak]

126. Well, I'll believe that

because she sure can't see them.

This proposal doesn't insure all. I am only interested that that kind of proposal.

When an unemployed homeless man can walk into a doctor's office and get the treatment and medication he needs to survive without paying out of his pocket, then that is a plan.

Everything else leaves people in the cold. "Invisible" if you will.

[bobbolink]

53. You didn't see her wringing her hands when those kicked off welfare were suffering and dying?

She cares about poor folk ever so much more than she cares about corporations, donchaknow...

[Avalux]

10. I can't explain it to you because I don't see how it will.

And if the poor are jobless and can't afford insurance, they can't get a job unless they have insurance. :crazy:

The only people who will benefit from this plan are the insurance cos. and businesses who won't have the burden of insurance anymore.

[Maribelle]

12. More of the poor will receive medicaid. More low income kids will get S-CHIP. Government funded.

The poor will receive FREE health insurance. In no way does this screw the poor.

Other working people will be eligible for the tax credit based on income. A lot of people are thinking a tax credit is a tax cut - - it is not. Also, insurance premieums will be capped as a percentage of income, not including the tax credit.

You probably won't receive the tax credit if you don't have health insurance.

[sandnsea]

19. Rent or Insurance Premiums

Which are you going to pay?

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

35. Nothing will ever change

I understand how minority communities feel, constantly promised programs that never materialize. This plan is not going to help.

[Maribelle]

37. Do your homework and read up on the Earned Income Tax Credit.

You look like such a fool ranting on and on about which you know nothing. You would be doing youself a favor.

[sandnsea]

38. She didn't propose that

That's refundable in your paycheck. She didn't propose that.

[Maribelle]

45. Go do your homework. Go find out what "Tax Credits" are all about.

:banghead:

[sandnsea]

48. Do you think we don't file taxes?

Child care tax credit, hope tax credit, child tax credit. We know what tax credits are. One is refundable in your pay check. She didn't propose that.

[AllyCat]

116. Tax credit. When I file my state and federal taxes, a credit is something

I get at the end of the tax season. It's what comes after all the other taxes are paid out and I get a little bit left in the end. It has not EVER been anything I could get week after week in my check with the exception of claiming 2 for deductions on my W-4. That didn't amount to more than $40 a month.

I am not sure I have ever heard of someone getting money back on their weekly or bimonthly checks.

Sorry. I appreciate you trying to state her point, but I don't see how she will be able to get this enacted as POTUS when we have a Congress that does basically nothing no matter who is in charge. There will always be the poor that fall in between the lines who will not qualify on one level, but be too broke to afford the next insurance plan.

The idea of for-profit healthcare is always going to benefit the insurance companies and not the average Joe.

She said on Ed Schultz today that this plan would be likely to be approved by Repukes, but as soon as they see the bit about expanding Medicare, SCHIP, and so forth, they'll balk, it will get watered down and the poor will take it in the teeth again.

[bobbolink]

96. Calling people fool over and over is making you look like one.

[Forkboy]

113. here's the kicker...

Maribelle (587 posts)

And here I thought it was personal attacks like yours that shut down threads?

Nothing to add just a personal attack?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3531540&mesg_id=3534760

[northzax]

71. how much do you pay for Medicare and S-Chips now?

oh, nothing? what part of it don't you get? below a ceiling, it will be covered by the government. I don't know what else you are looking for.

[depakid]

40. A tax credit sure as hell is a tax cut!

And if it's benefits are directed at the insurers it's also a subsidy to an abusive industry that does adds no value and does nothing to "produce health." Every dollar withheld from the treasury that goes into their coffers ends up adding more inefficiency to the system- and increasing the cost of health care.

Not very smart economics- but something that we've come to expect from the Clintons.

[Maribelle]

55. Tax credits and tax cuts are different. You're wrong. (n/t)

[depakid]

59. No, they're the exact same thing in practical effect

The treasury foregos revenue based on a judgment that someone is worthy of paying either at a lower rate, by some designated amount, or not at all.

[Maribelle]

60. Tax Credits lower your liability.Tax Cuts decrease the percentage, your liability remains the same.

:spank:

[depakid]

64. The net effect on the treasury amounts to a tax cut

and the effect on the economy in this case also includes a subsidy to certain business interests at the expense of others.

In individual terms- you pay less, irrespective of the liability without the credit.

[Freddie Stubbs]

15. If no one uses the money, how will it enrich the the insurance companies?

Please try to keep your conspiracy theories straight.

[leftchick]

16. no one can

because it won't. It will actually make it worse for the middle class and poor. Yet it will makes heaps for Insurance and Big Pharma.

[jobycom]

17. Obama and Edwards said it was essentially the same as their plans.

Basically, the plan is to adjust insurance costs as a percentage of a person's income. When a person doesn't make enough, tax credits will be given, and if that isn't enough, subsidies will be provided.

Essentially the same as Obama's and Edwards's, in other words--as both candidates have said, in the form of accusing her of stealing their's.

As for it enriching the insurance companies, sure. The alternative is to have a single payer, hopefully the government. Either way, we all pay the money (directly or in taxes, with subsidies for those who can't pay), someone gets the money, and hopefully insurance will be provided. I would rather a single payer. Otherwise, government will have to pay someone to regulate and monitor the multiple insurance companies, which seems like an added expense.

Any way it goes, the top three candidate have very similar plans. Whatever the proposal, it will go to Congress, and the final plan will be hammered out by the legislators, and no doubt great changes will be made.

[sandnsea]

25. I haven't seen Obama say that

Edwards did, because it is. Biden has said the plans are all similar.

But I haven't seen Obama say that. I'd like to see the quote. With Edwards, he has been very clear that he doesn't mandate because he doesn't believe people are choosing not to have health coverage. He believes they can't afford it. It's clearly different than the others.

[jobycom]

27. Here's his entire statement.

"I commend Senator Clinton for her health care proposal. It's similar to the one I put forth last spring, though my universal health care plan would go further in reducing the punishing cost of health care than any other proposal that's been offered in this campaign. But the real key to passing any health care reform is the ability to bring people together in an open, transparent process that builds a broad consensus for change. That's how I was able to pass health care reform in Illinois that covered an additional 150,000 children and their parents, and that's how we'll prevent the drug and insurance industry from defeating our reform efforts like they did in 1994."

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/09/17/364592.aspx

[sandnsea]

31. Well then he's an idiot too

and we're more fucked than I thought we were. I'm glad I live in a state that is providing real help to most of its citizens.

[sandnsea]

18. They'll be homeless paying premiums

instead of rent, so they won't have an address to get the refund anyway. Tax credits are bullshit. They promised us tax credits were going to help us go to college too.

[Maribelle]

36. You don't know what you are talking about. Tax credits are paid in the paycheck.

You truly need to do your homework.

[sandnsea]

41. No, it's not that simple

Most tax credits aren't, for starters. She didn't propose a paycheck credit, second. And third, EIC in your paycheck requires additional paperwork. I don't know that you can get it right off the bat, without having received it in a refund previously. And, if you owe child support or taxes or student loans, they take it anyway.

[madrchsod]

29. well ,let see see.......

........................................................................................................
........................................................................................................
........................................................................................................
........................................................................................................
hell i don`t know

[Cleita]

32. There are already programs in place that help the poor like

Medicaid. Clinton's plan doesn't get rid of them. It's the working poor and working middle class that get the shaft from the insurance companies. By including the insurance companies in her plan, Clinton's plan is not going to help anyone in that category except to give the appearance of everyone having coverage. It will only make health care insurance more expensive for the same old mediocre coverage. She hasn't addressed the coverage issue, which is what our health care crisis is all about, at all.

[Maribelle]

42. Your statement is outrageous.

Why do you even want to get into this discussion when you obviously know nothihg about it?

It's truly sad to see an issue that is so vital to so many simply jerked around by know nothings.

[Cleita]

49. Sorry dearie but I know a lot about this subject.

I've been studying it diligently since Hillary put out her first plan during her husband's administration. Anyone who backs a plan that keeps the for profit health care and insurance industries as part of it are part of the health care industry or getting something from them. I know the lobbyists are doing their best to try to change the conversation with their usual ad hominem attacks.

I know a lot about health care. I have worked on the insurance part of it a good part of my life both for insurance companies and as a biller for doctors offices and clinics. Since I retired I have been a victim of the health insurance industry until I was able to get that little government program known as Medicare to cover me. I have studied the problem from all sides.

Keep your ad hominems to yourself and never attack me by calling me a know nothing particularly on this issue because that is what people do who have no facts to offer do.

[madrchsod]

63. i helped my mom and dad go to doctors offices and hospitals

for 10 years before they died and they were never denied procedure or doctor with medicare and supplemental. this argument about doctor choice and treatment is crap.another over looked fact in this fact is that in 2 years there is going to be a whole lot of people in the medicare system and out of the private insurance...so it is wonder why insurance companies are so eager to go a long with the democrats plans.

why not use the states,federal,or a hybrid of both to fund universal health care? both programs are up and running and provide services. i forgot we both agree do`t we...i`ve got 4 more years before i join the medicare program

[Cleita]

72. Extending an improved Medicare to all would solve the problem.

It would be cost effective too because the bureacracy to run it is already in place. They would probably have to expand and hire more people but that might take care of a lot of people who will lose their jobs in the private health insurance industry.

[Maribelle]

70. I still say your post was outrageous.

Your statement that "Clinton's plan is not going to help anyone in that category except to give the appearance of everyone having coverage is totally false.

[Cleita]

79. Read this.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x308962

[northzax]

74. you mean like the French plan?

the one Sicko talks about so wonderfully? where private doctors and hospitals compete for insurance dollars with state run facilities?

the one that is consistently ranked in the top 3 in the world, despite costing less than half the US system, per capita? that for profit system?

[Cleita]

80. The French plan would be closer to Edward's plan.

Hillary's plan is closer to Arnold's in California, which has little support and was written by health insurance lobbyists.

[sandnsea]

83. cleita, they're the same

Elizabeth said they're the same.

Obama's is the one that doesn't rely on mandates and tax credits, but his campaign was too stupid to point that out.

[CTyankee]

85. My little grandson in California gets health insurance for about $6.50 a month

since my daughter is unemployed and her husband is a musician and doesn't make a lot of money. They don't have enough money to buy private insurance. My grandson has some developmental problems requiring oc and behavioral therapies. He is getting a ton of supportive services. I'm no fan of Arnold but whatever he did (or maybe it was the Dem state legislature's efforts) my grandson is getting the care he needs and early diagnosis and regular assessments.

[Cleita]

86. I don't think Arnold has done anything yet. His plan is still being

debated and nothing is passed as legislation. I don't know exactly what plan your grandson has but it could be one of the programs that were already in place prior to Arnold like CHIPs or even just good old fashioned Medi-Cal which is what other states call Medicaid.

[CTyankee]

98. Well, whatever. Like everyone else, I am so happy he has his care.

He is just a little boy! How can anybody deny him health care?

Bush will go to hell for sure because of his stand on expansion of the SCHIP program. Denying health care for little kids, O my god...

[Hell Hath No Fury]

76. Pssst...

she knows [b]everything[/b] about Hillary's health care plan,
just so you know... :eyes:

[Cleita]

81. Well, if I don't have any authority in your rolling eyes, read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x308962

[Hell Hath No Fury]

87. Weren't you...

I was talking about. ;) I know you know what the fuck you're talking about! It's others here I question...

:hi:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

73. You know what is outrageous?

Repeating the same. Old. Bullshit over and over and expecting people to buy it. :eyes:

[bobbolink]

95. BWAHAHAHAHA! When someone knowledgeable posts back to you,

you go on the attack.

Just like sHill.

THAT'S what's sad.

Selling your soul for the corporations.

[Forkboy]

103. " And here I thought it was personal attacks like yours that shut down threads?"

Now who could have said that to me?

[sandnsea]

46. At least Obama's plan addresses that

He does have an insurance oversight board that will guarantee all coverage meets basic standards of care, accepts all people, and justifies the premiums.

[Cleita]

52. Yes, but in states that have mandated insurance like car insurance

and worker's compensation, the rates are higher and the coverage mediocre. If the coverage is good then the premiums will be very high. The same will happen here, not to mention what it will cost the taxpayers. It will be a lot more than extending Medicare to everyone. This is the tax and spend Democratic practices that send the conservatives into a dither. The fact is that most studies done have proven that a single payer system keeps the costs down and provides the widest access to medical care for all.

[sandnsea]

56. This monitors insurance nationally

National Health Insurance Exchange. All insurance has to be part of it. It would address the coverage and premiums.

I also don't know of a state that doesn't mandate car insurance and workers comp. I think medical costs are key in the rise of those rates too though.

[Cleita]

68. Yes, and we will have very expensive health care nationally,

instead of in certain states.

[sandnsea]

75. So

Do you take the position that govt assistance pushes up prices because there is no natural mechanism to stop the upward spiral. Not just insurance and health care; but food, housing, power, etc, as well.

[Cleita]

88. Government is only as good as the legislation that is implemented

by our elected representatives and officers. Now Medicare is a government plan passed back in the sixties by Lyndon Johnson and a Democratic Congress so they got they got it pretty right. Medicare if it's run as intended is a very good program and we should extend it to everyone. You know Medicare Part B has $100 deductible and 20% copay. Many seniors, like myself, buy supplemental private insurance that fills in those gaps. In effect, all I have to do is present both my insurance cards to the doctors or hospitals and I get health care without worrying about getting canceled or my insurance premium going through the roof as a high risk.

However, bigger brains than mine figured out that you could give 100% coverage with no deductibles or co-pays to everyone with the same or even less money than we spend per capita for health care coverage in this country today and keeping the health care providers happy with their fees. So I could even be willing to allow private insurance in addition to Medicare for the bells and whistles that the privileged seem to think are due to them but not instead of them.

I want to see basic and quality health care extended to every single person in this country regardless of their circumstances without having to jump through hoops to get it. I want to see everyone pay into it regardless. Now if rich people want to buy a supplemental that will give them a fancier hospital room or two nurses instead of one, I could go along with it as long as it isn't in place of our NHC plan, maybe named Medicare or whatever we want to call it.

In order to do this we have to cut out the middle men and fear not they will figure out another way to make money.

[sandnsea]

89. Some people can't do that

It seems you don't realize the Part B premium, itself, is out of the reach of many seniors. And supplemental even more so, then there's long term care on top of that. So I don't see how you can say Medicare even got it right, because it hasn't.

Medicaid actually had it right, years ago. It provided complete coverage, including eyes and dental. Instead of demanding that for our seniors, and all insurance, we let them remove the benefits.

I don't know if we're ever going to make real progress. I found out yesterday that my request for a new doctor has to go before a committee. The $900 a month insurance for pre-existing conditions doesn't have an annual check-up benefit. And if you complain too much, you can be banned. I'm not feeling very hopeful, bottom line.

[Cleita]

90. Yes, the premium is out of reach for a lot. I have friends who

have to get Medicaid to supplement that and their Part D precription coverage. That's why I advocate 100% coverage with only a percentage deducted for it from wages and supplemented by a sales tax. This would make it available to the poor and working poor who don't qualify for Medicaid, or as you said Medicaid for all. This is what is meant by an improved Medicare, 100% coverage for everyone. There would be the usual payroll deductions for both workers and employers that they pay now and I believe we could adopt a sales tax to fill in the gap for the unemployed and handicapped like Canada does.

I know what you are going through with having your health care choices being made by a committee. It really sucks and shouldn't happen. You should be able to go to the physician of your choice, present your health care card, and not worry about it after that. The doctor on the other hand should be able to give you the health care you need and send their bill into the Medicare or Medicaid office at the end of the month to be paid, just like they do in Canada.

[bobbolink]

101. PLEEEEZ, not sales tax! That is regressive, and only further sets back people like me!

Please, can we stop supporting more and more sales taxes!

We already can't even afford the necessities, because of high sales taxes!

[Cleita]

104. If we do a payroll tax on both employees and employers, where

would we get the rest of the money? Maybe we should bump up excise taxes on all the junk from China that they sell at Wal-Mart. It still hurts lower income people, but maybe it would creat jobs by bringing manufacturing back to America. Just food for thought.

[bobbolink]

105. How much do you want me to give you?

I already don't have a place to live.

I don't have enough to eat properly.

I don't have enough for warm clothes for the upcoming winter.

I don't have enough to get the medicine I need for the symptoms of pneumonia coming back.

What more could you possibly want from me??????

Telling me it's OK to hurt me more makes me ANGRY!

And, hurts me that it's OK with you.

What more do you want me to give up for you?

[Cleita]

106. Sorry Bobbie. I don't mean to hurt you.

I would like to see laws passed that would give you a place to live and take care of all your needs. There has to be a way to twist the money out of the rich somehow to do this.

[bobbolink]

107. It DOES hurt when it's so easily dismissed. The same with gas taxes that liberals here

keep wanting to raise.

WHAT THE FUCK ARE WE SUPPOSED TO LIVE ON???

Yet, I beg and beg DUers to work on the National Housing Trust Fund Bill, and it sinks like a stone.

I don't like being angry with you, Cleita, or anyone else.

BUT, FOR GOD'S SAKE, THINK OF WHAT YOU'RE REALLY DOING WHEN YOU WANT SALES TAXES RAISED!

[AllyCat]

123. Wisconsin does not mandate car insurance. n/t

[dkofos]

61. They will die younger and not have the need for health care INSURANCE!!

[Vinca]

69. It's meant to help the poor get in better physical shape.

They will need to walk and walk and walk searching for $12,000 a year worth of returnable bottles in order to buy insurance so they can get their tax credit. What a great plan.:sarcasm:

[LSK]

78. So Hillary's entire plan is a tax credit???

:shrug:

[napi21]

91. As I understand it, part of her program will permit people to buy into

Medicare. Schultz mentioned that today too, aftr he had Hillary on as his guest. The only link I can find that mentions anything about this is here:

Strengthen Medicaid and CHIP: The Plan will fix the holes in the safety net to ensure that the most vulnerable populations receive affordable, quality care.


http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/summary.aspx

[Cleita]

92. She hasn't said if it's an improved Medicare, which is what is

needed or the same one we have now that while effective needs a lot of retooling. Also, she hasn't addressed how she is going to make the for profit insurance companies come into line with the same coverage.

[napi21]

97. There are a lot of details that haven't yet been worked out.

Hillary said that the other day in an interview I litened to. Sorry I don't recall what interview or who was doing it, but the interviewer asked some detailed question about her new plan, and she responded that every detail has not yet been worked out.

[Cleita]

110. Apparently Dennis Kucinich has. Why can't she?

Is she waiting for her insurance lobbyist friends to come up with something that sounds plausible?

[napi21]

111. Dennis hasn't either. Not really. Do you really think HC is so

easily solved by just putting everyone into Medicare? Come on. It's not and you know it. Many Drs. aren't accepting any more Medicare patients because they can't afford to. The reimbursement is too small for them to actually run their practice. What did Dennis say about increasing reimbursements? Nothing that I've heard. What about all the procedures that Medicare simply won't cover? Who do you complain to if you're unwilling to accept their decision?

I like Dennis too, and he is sure not afraid to speak his mind, but on this issue, he's trying to make it way to simplistic, and it's not.

[Cleita]

114. He has, to my satisfaction anyway, and I'm usually on top of

this particular subject. So has John Edwards. People say that his and Hillary's plan are the same but there is a subtle difference. Kucinich though more particularly understands that it's necessary to cut out the middlemen so that health care can be delivered to those in need with the patient not having any fear of being jerked around by committee and the caregivers don't have the fear of not being paid for their services. Also, he understands that health care dollars are for health care not Wall Street profits.

[Geek_Girl]

93. I'm really confused about her plan

I'll just go ahead and ask this here, since so many on this forum are probably way more informed about it. My family currently gets health insurance via my husband's employer. We pay 430 month. Can I expect to get any kind of savings for our health insurance under Hillary's plan.

[AllyCat]

117. The way I understood what she said today is that if you don't like

your plan (employer provided or otherwise), you can buy into the same plan that Congress has. I don't know how much that costs. I'm sure they pay nothing, we pay everything. And we'll continue to pay everything.

[Saphire]

99. Will we go to jail if we DON'T have it??? Will we be denied healthcare??

if it's going to be mandatory, what happens to those who don't get it for what ever reason??? Will we be turned away from emergency rooms, told that its just tough shit if you need immediate care?? Hillary lost my vote with this one.

[bobbolink]

100. What happens to those who don't have car insurance in states that mandate it?

[AllyCat]

118. Apparently, you have to provide proof of insurance to your employer

or potential employer. Through COBRA, the ER still has to treat you whether you have insurance or not. I don't know if she'll monkey with that too.

[CTyankee]

127. I agree that Hillary needs to address this mandatory question, but

your dire scenario makes no sense if the whole idea is get MORE people health care, not less!

Until we find out, we need to calm down. Talking about how you'd have to go to jail or be denied in the ER is just hyperbole. Don't let your rhetoric go wild. Seek out information, instead.

[BlooInBloo]

102. By limiting premiums to a percentage of income? I know it's DU-policy to hate Clinton....

... but just making shit up is fucking ridiculous.

Full breakdown of a good plan at:

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/09/the-americas-ch.html

"4. Ensure Affordable Health Coverage for All: Senator Clinton's plan will:

· Provide Tax Relief to Ensure Affordability: Working families will receive a refundable tax credit to help them afford high-quality health coverage.

· Limit Premium Payments to a Percentage of Income: The refundable tax credit will be designed to prevent premiums from exceeding a percentage of family income, while maintaining consumer price consciousness in choosing health plans.

· Create a New Small Business Tax Credit: To make it easier--not harder--for small businesses to create new jobs with health coverage, a new health care tax credit for small businesses will provide an incentive for job-based coverage.

· Strengthen Medicaid and SCHIP: The Plan will fix the holes in the safety net to ensure that the most vulnerable populations receive affordable, quality care.

· Launch a Retiree Health Legacy Initiative: A new tax credit for qualifying private and public retiree health plans will offset a significant portion of catastrophic expenditures, so long as savings are dedicated to workers and competitiveness. "

[Cleita]

109. Just your and the plan's first point here...

"Provide Tax Relief to Ensure Affordability: Working families will receive a refundable tax credit to help them afford high-quality health coverage."

I have had this said to me by right wing conservatives way back before there was a Bush administration or a DU. How has it suddenly become a Democratic meme? How are people, who don't make an income or whose income is so low that they don't pay taxes, supposed to benefit from a tax credit?

Go look at Arnold Schwarzenegger's plan written by the health insurance lobbyists. Hillary's plan is the same. We all know that anything the Republicans put up as a social program spells P-R-O-F-I-T for them and S-C-R-E-W Y-O-U to the so-called beneficiaries. Just look at the Medicare Part D prescription plan for seniors if you want proof. Oh, I just paid $73 for a prescription for 30 tabs and that was the co-pay with my Medicare prescription benefit. In Canada the same drug costs $100 for 30 tabs. So how can the whole price of a drug be only $27 more in Canda than the co-pay here in the USA. Clearly there is something wrong when Republicans write social legislation.

[PDenton]

120. we need to lift the HC burden off businesses altogether

Businesses don't want to pay for healthcare anymore. Nor should they really have to. I hope one of these days employer based healthcare ends, because it is part of the reason that healthcare is so expensive, and why it is harder and harder for businesses to employ people. It is just an unsound idea.

[AllyCat]

124. I want it to end too, but only if there is a new and better program in place

I think it hurts business and hurts employees. Every single contract, our union has to renegotiate our plan with our employer and it's often a huge sticking point for both sides. The hospital is always trying to float some new, "cheaper" plan that limits services when one reads, but most new employees look at the low-cost and say, I'll take that one. Then fewer people are in the other plans and the hospital tries to get rid of other plans that work better for us.

It needs to stop, but only with a universal plan in place!

[CTyankee]

128. I thought so too until I heard Clinton say that employers she talked to liked the

employer paid system. I find that strange but that's what I thought I heard her say the other day on GMA. She said she was surprised, too.

[Lethe]

129. where are the percentages listed?

what are the percentages? 50%? 30%?

[PDenton]

119. state insurance pool

Her plan has a state insurance pool. It is meant to offer some competition against private plans as well since the administrative costs should be lower.

I think part of Clinton's proposal is she doesn't want any more of those commercials they got the first time around, where "OMG the government is taking away your insurance".

[riqster]

125. The status quo is unacceptable

We have three Dem candidates all offering alternatives. They are all public/private mixes.

We have been heading towards a Plutocracy at an accelerated rate since Reagan, and health care has become a purely profit-driven 'business'. Unless there is a Communist revolution in the next few months, the profiteers will NOT repeat NOT be removed from the healthcare equation. That being the case (loathsome as it may be, it IS the case), we have to at least stop the bleeding.

Hillary, Barrack and John have all proposed healthcare for people who currently have none. That is a helluva good thing. None of their proposals are perfect, but any of them are better than the current state of affairs, where the only things that get healthier are the Health Exec's bank accounts.

[CTyankee]

130. What Clinton might be aiming at is the eventual evolution of Medicare for everyone.

I think she figures the RW will demonize a plan that starts out single payer and we'll be back to the same old, same old. So she devises a plan that allows insurance companies and 2 government programs, Medicare and Fed. Employees program, compete. She is betting that people will like the government program better because of its affordability. Then, when competition drastly reduces private insurers' market share, they will slowly fade from the scene. After all, the HC industry is in business to make money. If they can't compete, they can't make money and they'll find some other enterprise.

And because this whole plan is cast as "competition in the marketplace" the RW can hardly complain. Private insurers will have their chance, and they will fail...

[riqster]

131. Hank, you may be onto something.

Hillary is certainly capable of such strategy. I gotta admit to being more of a tactician, so all I see is a good step forward. You put forth an interesting idea, and a thoughtful one at that.

For me the important thing is to put a Dem in White House (not just elect him/her, make sure s/he get the office we won this time). All of the contenders are committed to fixing the Health Care Crisis, as opposed to Reeps who want all the poor to die, decreasing the surplus population.

[CTyankee]

132. Well, I am not the only one saying this, so I can't take that much credit.

I hope I am right. It makes sense that private insurers will not only NOT make money, they might go broke, if faced with new rules that say they can't deny people with pre existing conditions or make premiums too expensive. That and the fact that people now have nowhere else to go, have allowed them to cherry pick healthy consumers. Under Hillary's plan, they are doomed. But if I know business people they won't spin their wheels for long and they'll be out the door...