Men's Room Cruising vs. Mile-High Club (or, The Homophobic Society)

[alcibiades_mystery]

One of the more curious effects of the Larry Craig story is the mild disdain shown by many on even this progressive board about "sex in public." Now, many people have done excellent studies on this sort of thing, and it is one of the chief preoccupations of academic "queer theory," largely because it is and has been such an integral part of LGBT life for so long. For anyone interested in a way into these discussions, I would suggest Lauren Berlant and Michael Warner's excellent essay Sex in Public, which argues that sexualities are invariably tied to spatialities, or a politics of spaces, and that the ways we arrange our public/private spaces are themselves invested with political assumptions (consider the politics of the "one-family" house or the "two-car garage" for instance). These discussions of a politics of space are quite old, of course (Bachelard, Lefebvre), but their application to sexuality is both novel and necessary. So this is already a big issue, with a lot of people much smarter than me trying to think through their implications.

In terms of public/private spaces and LGBT issues, we have to consider coded sanctuaries, or "safe spaces," and understand that these are developed out of the real social danger of homosexuality in a homophobic society. We also have to understand that such institutions actually produce desires. In any case, it's naive and impossible to think of these incidents without considering the necessity for "sex in public" as it developed in modern history. We have to be more complex thinkers when it comes to stuff like this.

But to decomplexify it a bit, I'm particularly struck by the difference in the way sex in public is represented. Consider the Mile High Club: sex in a "public" bathroom, often portrayed as anonymous and fleeting (catching the eye of the hottie across the aisle, and with a tilt of the head towards the VACANT sign at the bathroom door, a whole complex dance towards coitus unfolds...), yet thumped about with pride by heterosexuals. Proud. Fucking. Member. Put it on a T-shirt. Hee hee. Now consider the difference with respect to the airport restroom rendezvous, no doubt a much "gayer" operation. Yuck, people say. Or, if they consider themselves liberal, "People can have sex with any other consenting adult, but not in our PUBLIC spaces, harrumph!"

So, it's not the bathroom thing that really disgusts. Indeed, one could argue that the plane bathroom is even more "repulsive" and "disrespectful of the rights of other users" than the restroom stall. It's not the sex that really disgusts. Indeed, the Mile High Club is trumpeted as hilarious sort of diversion. It's not the anonymity that really disgusts. Anonymous heterosexual sex is the stuff of very open fantasies. What then is it, that causes even many progressives to label these spaces of LGBT safety filthy, and their attendant actions perversity? I think I know the answer, but it makes me very uncomfortable.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. In the airplane bathroom...

does one creepy guy peer through the cracks behind the door at unsuspecting users of the bathroom? I mean like Craig did?

[alcibiades_mystery]

6. Actually, the spaces and gestures are so highly coded

precisely to exclude the unwilling and "unsuspecting users" (in this case, your definition is particularly absurd, since the "unsuspecting user" was very much a "suspecting" user (i.e., an undercover detective). If you read his report again, what you should notice is a series of steps, each of which have to be answered in the affirmative for the next step to proceed. Cruising is a very complex undertaking, in other words, precisely because it is so dangerous.

This book (http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%253Aen-US%253Aofficial%26hs%3DJsO%26q%3DThe%2Blogic%2Bof%2Bthe%2Blure%26btnG%3DSearch&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title#PPA4,M1">The Logic of the Lure), while not great, does an interesting job of addressing these highly coded moves.

[bicentennial_baby]

2. Very, very interesting...

I was pondering this exact same subject this morning. K&R.

[TheWraith]

3. Try and actually think about what you're saying.

"What then is it, that causes even many progressives to label these spaces of LGBT safety filthy, and their attendant actions perversity?"

Safety? You're defending anonymous mens' bathroom sex, 60-some year old men trying to spy on others, et al? That's as far from "safety" or appropriate sexual behavior as you can get. What would you say if that stall had contained, instead of an undercover cop, a teenage or younger boy? Nobody in that bathroom asked to be looked at. Whatever you might say about people having sex in airliner bathrooms, as rare as it occurs, both participants are volunteers. No one's running around the bathroom coming on to random people, invading their privacy, spying on them, etc..

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. I'm not talking about people "spying on others"

And the objections about the non-voluntary aspect has already been answered above.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. We're talking about Craig.

If you'd read the report, you'd see he spent several minutes playing Peeping Tom on the cop.


Whoops.

[Bunny]

4. Two people having sex in an airplane bathroom are not sharing it with others

while the sex is happening. THAT is the difference. I don't care to see anyone's sexual antics in a public place. If that makes me a prude, or not "complex" enough, well - I've been called worse.

[bleedingheart]

20. I can't even believe the stories about sex in airplane bathrooms

perhaps in the 50's through the 70's...when perhaps (i am guessing) bathrooms were larger...

but I had to take my little girl to the bathroom on a plane once and she wouldn't go unless I went into the scary bathroom with her...and there was barely enough room to move...meanwhile try getting a kid to pee on a scary toilet with blue water....

[Bunny]

23. They're not very spacious, are they?

Not to mention that chemical smell. x(

[bleedingheart]

31. unless someone is a contortionist...I can't imagine how

unless both parties weighed less than 100lbs and they were terribly limber...

if it was me...I would probably fall over...bust open the bathroom door and fall on the ground...

I am barely coordinated enough to walk...

bwahahahaha

[YOY]

50. A friend of mine takes plane trips from China often

There are a good number of folks on that plane that have never used a toilet before and they have to put illustrations on how to use it next to the toilet. It does not stop people from squiating over it with both feet on the seat or stading above it and "bombing".

The toilets tend to be so disgusting after the first 3 or 4 hours that the rest of the trip (12 hours I think) makes them usable. He took a cameraphone picture and sent it to me a while ago.

Anyone who would want to have sex in that place has "fetishes"...

[Sanctified]

87. Those Illustrations are for people like my wife who refuses to sit on a toilet.

No joke my wife has never sat on a public toilet instead she squats over it, she is Japanese and is used to the old school Japanese toilets that look like a mens urinal on the floor.

[YOY]

89. Nope

They're for folks used to using cement hole in the ground that lead directly to the sewer system. Chinese provincials.

Not even the "Turkish Toilet" or "French Squatter" that I think you're talking about:

...cement holes:

[Sanctified]

91. The Turkish one looks like the old school japanese toilet.

The only difference is the Japanese toilet has a flush.

[eridani]

118. Dave Barry sez that Japanese toilets--

--are basically holes that someone forgot to put a toilet over.

[TahitiNut]

42. Hell ... my generation had sex in the back seat of Volkswagens!

An airplane lavatory is spacious in comparison. :shrug:

[Ghost in the Machine]

69. You should try the back of a '74 Vega, in the rain, with the hatchback closed..

... and you're 6'3"....

[kansasblue]

5. good points....

and I've noted over the years there is a strata of 'good ' sex to 'bad' sex.

Imagine the average person walking up behind a car at a drive-in movie theater and see a hot male / hot female couple in their 20's going at it in the back seat.

The average person may just chuckle and tell friends some couple was going at it and steaming up the windows.

now let's just keep keep replaying that scene but each time with different players:

1) hot young male/female couple

2) not so hot older male/female couple

3) two over weight male/female couples

4) two young (20) male/male couple

5) two older males

I think for a lot of people it changes from 'snicker, snicker' to "I'm calling the cops". But yet only the legal age participants changed in this situation.

And I thinks that's where alcibiades_mystery is headed with the thoughts above.

[smoogatz]

28. Wait! Wait!

You forgot the clear winner--hot young female/female couple! Preferably cheerleaders!

Oh, wait--that's complicated...

[rudeboy666]

7. It's quite unfortunate

that the interesting issues raised by this case are supplanted by juvenile (and oftentimes homophobic) rants on this forum.

Just a simple browse over the titles and content of some of the Craig threads are disappointing to say the least.

[alcibiades_mystery]

9. It's clear to me from the responses on this thread

that there is general ignorance about the way cruising works in queer cultures. You say "Men's bathroom," and they think rape or other involuntary "peeping." It's disturbing, but I guess not surprising.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Hmmm

I would say the behavior in both instances were inappropriate...

When I was thirteen I had long hair, a lithe figure, and flawless skin... One time I was urinating in a rural Florida restroom and this older bald man says "would you like to feel the juices?"

Public restrooms serve a purpose... They are there for people to pee , poop or wash up... They aren't surrogate singles bars and my gay, bi, and transgendered friends and colleagues would be appalled at the suggestion that they are...

[jobycom]

16. It's always hard to see past what you know.

People "know" that certain things are the way they are, and when someone challenges that, most people can only hear it in terms of what they already know. Often they can't even understand that they are not analyzing it objectively, because they don't understand the assumptions they make that form their knowledge. To them they are not assumptions, they are truisms. I say "they," but obviously everyone necessarily falls into that trap, since it is difficult to see beyond what you know. I've seen that in discussions lately of Craig, of vegetarianism and Michael Vick, even of popular culture.

There are no truisms. Including that one. Every statement is a question. Know thyself. An unexamined life is not worth living. Great minds have said these things all through history, but us mediocre minds don't fully comprehend it, anyway.

On the OP, the basic point that something other than distaste for public sex is going on seems right, to me. You can tell by the posts that many here who give lip service to gay and lesbian rights still are not comfortable with the reality of gay and lesbian sex. Some posts which rant about the hypocrisy of Republicans towards sexuality can barely contain the assumptions that Craig must be degenerate, or a pervert. I used to get in these discussions to explain that it wasn't the act, it was the hypocrisy we should focus on, but now I've come to believe that even many who say "hypocrisy" really mean "hypocrisy involving something dirty and wrong." So now I just avoid the threads altogether. I can't see how anything anywhere is helped by all these Craig threads, frankly, aside from furthering an attitude that homosexuality is questionable. There are many posters sincerely focusing on the hypocrisy, but overall, I think we are doing more harm than good.

I'm interested in the discussion of space, but I'll have to read it more closely when I'm not at work.

[TheDoorbellRang]

45. This is the sort of thread that helps us heterosexuals with GLBT issues

I have to confess that altho I'm very pro GLBT rights, I'm also uncomfortable with the idea of seeing two males or females kissing. Why is that? I'm not sure, but one explanation would be that I was very taken aback when I was about 10 and had that mom/daughter talk about the sex act. Just couldn't wrap my brain around it. It wasn't until I actually partook myself years later that I realized "Yeah. This is cool." And that just covered heterosexual sex. So, short of active participation, I can only keep reading thoughtful threads by GLBT DUers to help me decrease my "uncomfort" level and raise my understanding.

[Sapphocrat]

130. That's OK...

You'd be surprised how many LGBTs have a visceral "ick" reaction to seeing a man and a woman kissing. It's just so... unnatural. ;)

Not that there's anything wrong with being straight... :D

[mondo joe]

86. I do know how it works in queer culture. And I know I don't like a lot of it.

When I was a teen and started running I was hit on so many times in the park that I finally just stopped answering men, and wouldn't use the park restroom at all. I was 15.

It didn't phase me much, but I can assure you it wasn't welcome, and some of it definitely felt menacing.

[eridani]

119. Cruising in parks after dark is very different

You have to actively look for what you are after, and you don't have to put up with creeps who want to watch other bodily functions. And bathhouses are even safer than that.

[sniffa]

10. beyond juveniLe at times

but that's why i Love DU and DUers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

11. What seems juvenile to me...

are all these really ill thought out attempts to defend Craig.

[sniffa]

19. ..

[TwilightGardener]

13. Sex in a public venue is just plain wrong--of ANY persuasion.

It's offensive, disruptive to polite society and uncivilized. We are not animals, we should be able to control our impulses until we are in an appropriately private setting.

[TahitiNut]

43. How about the back seat of a car parked at "lover's point"??

:shrug:

[TwilightGardener]

46. My take on that is, if you take great pains to ensure privacy, and you

are in YOUR private space (your car) in a secluded area, then...just don't get caught. ;) Public restrooms? Hell no! Take it somewhere else, folks, I gotta whiz!

[soothsayer]

53. tell that to all the Brits who are into 'dogging'

[whoneedstickets]

15. Are you arguing that gay sex in public bathrooms...

..is political act? That Larry Craig despite being in the closet, was actually asserting the fundamental equality of homosexuals by challenging the boundaries of appropriate sexual space!

Wait, now I'll argue that Micheal Vick's dogfighting was an affirmation of an alternative black-male culture and a response to the dis-empowerment and objectification of black males as athletes and men. His canine gladiatorial exploits are simply the juxtaposition of the relative roles of master and servant held over from America's slave culture.

No wonder I can never stand this post modern crap.

[XemaSab]

40. word.

n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. Respectfully That's Wrong

" What then is it, that causes even many progressives to label these spaces of LGBT safety filthy, and their attendant actions perversity? "

Nobody has the right to make a public restroom into their own personal domain...Rights are all about me respecting your rights and you respecting mine...

When women can come into male restrooms or vice versa , gaze at them on the toilet for two minutes, sit next to them and rub their feet, then stick their hands into the stall I'll say society should extend that right to gay people...

[bleedingheart]

18. I was at a picnic two summers ago where a heterosexual couple

was sucking face and caressng one another to a point where everyone moved away from them.

It made people uncomfortable for different reasons...some folks don't like public displays of affection.. and some of us think that intimacy of that level is something that you don't want everyone else to view..

Other people just pointed and laughed until the couple got the "hint"....

...meanwhile about 15 years ago when I first started dating Mr. B... we went to see a concert at Heinz Chapel on the Pitt campus for a christmas chorale.
I had been having a rough day...and while we listened to this beautiful music...Mr. B was holding my hand and he was lightly touching the back of my hand with his other hand......nothing more...and yet the woman seated next to us gave poor Mr. B a glaring look as if he had me bent over the pew...

Now personally heterosexual/homosexual or even monosexual...I think sex in a public bathroom is gross...not because of the sex...but because I think public bathrooms are gross...and poorly cleaned in most cases...but I also don't want to venture into a bathroom and find someone having sex when I have to actually use the bathroom...

On a trip to DC years ago...I walked in on a prostitute servicing a guy in a women's room at a McDonalds...it was quite a surprise..and while I quickly exited ...I couldn't help wondering...what if a kid had walked in on them? what the hell then?

my opinion overall is...if you want to have sex...get a room.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. I Don't Know How This Got Turned Into A Gay V Strg8 Issue

The restroom is a public space where all kinds of people go ,primarily, to evacuate...

It's nobody's personal domain to set up as an ersatz singles bar...

[bleedingheart]

26. I don't know either...but sex in public places while a turn on for some

has been judged by society as a "no no" at least for now.

and for many good reasons...

There is enough goofy behavior in the world...I can't imagine going to the turnpike rest stops with my kids if I have to clear the bathroom first to make sure no one is "getting it on"....

After seeing a couple use one of the "family bathrooms" at an Ohio rest stop...I decided that perhaps taking lysol along for all public rest stops would be a good idea...meanwhile my husband said..."why are those to going in there...don't they know its for people to change diapers or for folks in wheelchairs who need assistance"...I had to laugh until it dawned on him...

[David__77]

22. If it were a single-use restroom, would the response be the same?

Just curious. I think that part of the discomfiture stems from the fact that these are multi-use restrooms we're talking about. One could "walk in on it." I think that if it's out of sight, it's out of mind, to some extent. Mind you, I'm gay. I don't really care if people do it in the restroom so long as I don't see anything and it doesn't hog use of the toilet I need! I was in a gay bar not long ago, and walked in on oral taking place, not in the stall but out in the open. There was a small group of people wanting to use the urinals, but no one would go in. I did - I was drunk and needed to go! Anyway, enough of that story! lol... I think discretion is best.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. I Have Been To Many Strg8 Bars, Gay Bars, And Transgendered Bars

I think your expectation of what you might discover changes with the venue... But this was a public restroom at an airport...


They have "family bathrooms" where two people can comfortably fit and lock the door...I wouldn't have as large a problem if someone did their business there but I would still considerate it disrespectful of the following occupants , regardless of the gender of the couples...

[bleedingheart]

29. if he solicited a police officer for sex outside the single use rest room

perhaps by winking..tapping or whatever....

and then the police officer went in to the rest room and then flashed him a badge...I still think he would be under arrest...

[David__77]

33. Oh yes, I know.

I was thinking in terms of "social response." That is, people's revulsion level in response to the act might be different in this case, legal questions aside.

[bleedingheart]

35. If he was with a willing partner in a room where no one else could see him

I don't see a problem at all.

[mitchtv]

51. I would expect nothing less

:rofl:

[dave29]

24. there are boundaries, not just "space" -- and there is law

You can get just as arrested for soliciting sex in an airplane bathroom just as much as you can get arrested for soliciting sex in an airport bathroom. If you are going to play with these boundaries, you have to be prepared to pay.

Period. The law should make exceptions for no one (including the powerful, or anyone in the GLBT community). Double standards should not be tolerated.

Nobody is forced into an airport restroom stall, or an airplane stall to solicit sex, it is a personal decision made by the person in question, and they have to take responsibility for their actions. As a recovering meth addict, I have learned A LOT about taking personal responsibility over the years. Engaging in risky behaviors has it's own rewards and penalties, and as adults, we must own up to that.

Having said that, I do believe that the GLBT community should have equal rights under the law, not have a different standard applied. We are all humans, and should have equal rights. I believe that addressing this issue primarily will lead to a decrease in the "attractiveness" of challenging boundaries such as restroom stall walls, especially for self-loathing homosexual men whom have yet to come to terms with their sexuality - even at 62 years of age.

But I do not believe for one second that this is a gender issue, it is a question of law, hypocrisy, and boundaries broken down regardless of reason.

[IndianaJones]

25. this post is spot on. bravo. nt.

[blogslut]

30. About those bathrooms

Whereas I have never been a flight attendant, I worked in restaurants and bars for about 15 years. I have seen people do things to restrooms that defy logical explanation.

I once worked in nightclub that paid something five thousand dollars per hand-painted stall door. Because the restrooms were unisex and because it was the height of the cocaine 80's those doors were regularly ripped off their hinges, because the damned occupants were too busy blowing coke and each other WHEN OTHER PEOPLE JUST WANTED TO PEE. Having sex in a bathroom stall is selfish and inconsiderate to the establishment providing the facility.

In another club I worked at the ladies kept shoving whole rolls of toilet paper down the toilets. So, we took the toilet paper out. Then they started showing the paper towels down the toilet. We took out the paper towels. Finally, I knew I had seen it all when I discovered that they had stolen the chains out of the tanks!

If people want to have sex then they should do it in the privacy of their homes, in hotels where they pay or in sex clubs where it is permitted. A nightclub is an establishment for drinking, socializing and dancing. If you want to have sex, take it somewhere else.

<off rant>

[ecstatic]

32. Public restroom sex is disgusting, regardless of who is participating

Germs, etc. Most women have to squat because the toilets are too filthy to get anywhere near.

A sanctuary? Yeah, if you're looking to get caught. Hello? Other patrons will hear and see you as you leave.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

34. the Mile bLOw Club, as an alternative?

as for your last paragraph, I have never had any Attendant do any Action on any of my many flights. My fantasies, however, have flown to many heights.

You are correct. the puritanical teachings in America continue to peak into the closet, the bath, the bedroom and even a cockpit or two.

[demigoddess]

36. considering the scarcity of public restroom stalls, I consider it rather rude

to consider a restroom as a place for an assignation. Maybe someone should develop another public space for the cruising activity and leave the restrooms to the people that need them.

[whoneedstickets]

38. This is a good point! I nominate all Starbucks locations!

There are WAY more of those than public bathrooms.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

123. There's One Restroom In The Entire Establishment

That's a great idea...

Somebody can "go" in their pants waiting for the occupants to finish their assignation...

That sure sounds considerate...

[Tsiyu]

37. It may be viewed as a last resort

by desperate people, but what did people do before there were public bathrooms?

For example, adultery was a social crime of comparable proportions in past societies. Where did people meet to cheat back then?

For me it is not an issue of distaste. The Mile High Club members will not be seen by children.
There are appropriate times for children to see depictions of human lovemaking and sexuality, mind you, but alone in a public restroom between plane flights or in a state park do not strike me as opportune moments.

Expecting adults to exercise discretion is not homophobic, to my way of thinking.

A village and all that....

[XemaSab]

39. This is a stupid theory

If you are really worried about being bashed, why have sex in public?

This makes no sense.

[Tigress DEM]

41. Here's the difference - potential danger to children.

First off (as far as I am concerned) there is NO

real social danger of homosexuality

because I am someone who understands the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia.

Second, consenting adults do whatever flips your switch, but keep it to yourself. I don't want to see heteros humping or homos blowing each other, but have fun somewhere semi-private so if someone really has a jones to watch you they have to work at it.

In other words, use common sense people. Get a room or a reasonable facsimile.

SAFE PLACES in a society that believes in consenting adults is a protection for children who are vulnerable prey to pedophiles and for adults who might get sexed without their permission - as in rape.

A public airport should be a safe place because some kid or vulnerable person could walk in at any time and become a victim.

Mile High is disgusting because everyone in a plane can see who goes into and comes out of a restroom and the activity going on can be heard, but it's such a small space the danger of someone smuggling an unwilling person or kid in there is minimal.

As a liberal minded person I still want to see kids and vulnerable people safe and think it isn't any conflict of my values to say so.

I understand that GLBT has been flayed over what pedophiles do even when pedophiles aren't primarily same sex abusers except in the priesthood. I still don't think that's a problem with homosexuality. It's a problem with pedophilia.

The abuse of children has been the cry against homosexuality for years but it rings hollow since adult on child abuse is usually male adult to female child and that those people who do those things aren't truly capable of honest adult to adult relationships.

I think THAT is where the rallying cry from the GLBT community should be strongest. To be a homosexual is not the same as being a child abuser.

GLBT is about same sex or diverse choice among adults and in allowing children to understand if their sexual desires are different from the norm it isn't fatal, just different.




The senator from Idaho is in hot water because he's a repressed hypocrite.

[LanternWaste]

44. insults are the easiest thing in the world to find

My grandfather once said that insults are the easiest thing in the world to find-- that we can locate them in places even where they don't exist.

Regardless of gender, orientation race, color, creed, handedness, hair color, waist size, or anything else-- I simply don't want to see anybody getting their freak on while I'm taking a constitutional ("squeezing a loaf/taking a dump" for our less civil readers).

Maybe there are a lot of straight guys who righteously and loudly proclaim their membership in the 'mile high club'. As for myself, I haven't met any of them. I suppose if I did, I'd ask them to shut the hell up and talk about it at home.

But then, I'm probably a prude because I think there's a time and a place for everything...

[ComerPerro]

47. your entire premise is built on a strawman

"some people say that having sex in a public bathroom is perfectly fine, but they don't like what happened with Larry Craig. Therefore, they are homophobic."

[Touchdown]

48. Look at all the posters dancing around the OP.

* I respect you. You respect me.
* There is the law.
* This is not a private domain.
* What about the children?
* Why are you defending Craig?
* Either is disgusting (equivocating...who's getting arrested for airplane sex?)

Some of you straights just don't get it.

Need I remind you that it was illegal in all 50 states to have gay sex in 1970. Anywhere. In private, public, secret society, on film, in print, in photos, in apartments, in cars, in Mom's basement, in your high school quarterback's bedroom. EVERYWHERE. Since the rules straight society created for us was to make us outlaws for who we are, then we became outlaws. If I recall correctly, Craig is about and around that age where it was YOU straights, and YOUR rules that pushed him and others of his generation into his furtive life of societal imposed shame. We couldn't have sex at our parents houses like you. If we did, then our parents would have kicked us out of the family, disowned us, write us out of their wills, or just shoot us dead. Dad might beat the boy up protecting his darling girl, but that's the worst that would happen to you straights. Where could we go? Bars... At 16? Bathhouses... In Indiana? Christopher St... In Amarillo? The GLBT center... In Yakima? The gay bowling league... In Winslow? The library to read about who they are... In 1975?

Now is a time where we still have to fight for our rights, but we can live with relatively less judgment, but Craig was born of a different time, with a different set of rules, and his life has been influenced by that time, and society's attitudes when he was most impressionable and vulnerable. I'm not defending him, but I do understand that he is a product of a judge mental society... and he's from IDAHO for Christ's sake!

Now, you invade our bars. Saying "The music's better" or "I don't get hit on there" or some shit like that, then you declare one night a week "Straight Night" when nobody asked the bar owner. Ooooh' the gays are so cool, lets go invade their spaces! Hey Randi Rhodes! How about another talk about how you like gay men as pets to go buy shoes with?

You pushed us to the very edge of society by your self developed standards of decency. Pushed our communities right into the ocean (Key West, Fire Island, San Francisco, Provincetown). Disallowed us any inclusion in this society if we are to be ourselves and not conform and get a "nice girl", and then blame us being in the very spots on that edge of society that you put us in. You have no right to be indignant!

[mitchtv]

52. NICE rant, touchdown

I haven't seen the likes in quite a while,Sorry you are mostly casting pearls... to a young group who missed much of those times

[tnlefty]

54. Actually, you've given me something to think about and

to mull over. Thanks for a thought provoking perspective.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. You Could Substitute Gay For Black, Jew, Woman And Any Group Can Claim Special Privilege Because

They Were Persecuted...

I'm starting to think Michael Vick got a raw deal, growing up in the projects with an absentee father and a mother who was barely older than a teenager...

And don't get me started on slavery, the million of blacks who died in the intercontinental journey from freedom to slavery , and Jim Crow... Don't get me started that one of every three African American males is in prison, has been in prison, or is awaiting ajudication...

White society did it to them and you have the temerity to take away a man's career , drive him into the ground because he was involved in dog fighting...Yeah, white America treated it canines better than them...


No... We are all individuals and we are all responsible for our actions...

[Touchdown]

61. No you can't, but it's understandable you don't know that.

All the other communities you spoke of have social support structures in place, and have for generations. Gays had no such privelege until the last 25 or so years. Even without such larger support from the larger AA, Jewish, etc. communities, most parents knew, understood and supported their children when faced with hatred. Gays woudl be thrown out of the house.

I am not excusing anything, but you are.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. Hmmm

The African American support structure was purposely smashed...Families were broken up and sold into the slave trade...Many sociologists trace the fractures in the African American family to that event... Then you compound it with one hundred years of Jim Crow... What support structure? The African American underclass (those living below the poverty line is 35%) are largely hidden and marginalized...

If any group deserves special victim status it is them... But two wrongs don't make a right...Michael Vick is responsible for his actions as is Larry Craig...

I am all for addressing past wrongs but not at the expense of affording one group rights that aren't available to others...

As an aside, you still have homophobes who don't want gays in the armed forces or organized sports because they might have to shower with them and have them check out their junk and some people are recommending behavior that does just that...

[Touchdown]

80. I don't play rhetorical equivocation games

I never made any parallels between black and gay oppression. In fact the two are very historically different, and I don't believe parallels can be drawn. I won't get caught up in your "who's misery is worse" game of distraction.

Craig is of course guilty of lewd conduct in a public place. I never made any excuse for him or his behavior. Where you got that is nothing I can help you with. All I am saying is that there is a historical context to gay men meeting in places such as this furtively because they have been forced into it by a society that made criminals out of them. That he didn't stop to think that times have changed and the stigma isn't as large is one of his faults as well. That he was arrested by a cop in a sting operation to entrap gay men in an airport also says a lot about the police and the society who elects the chiefs, where we hear nothing of patrolling the "Inspiration Point" parking lot up on the hill. Nobody here, and certainly not I am advocating for special rights for gay men to have public sex (Another thing you imagined I said), but if laws are to be enforced equitably, then where is the 24 hour news cycle of Bloomberg fucking on a subway?

Are you saying I'm recommending that we check out "junk" in showers? I never said that either. Here's a shocking revelation...I've showered with other men and boys in Jr High and High school, The Army, College, Gyms, and campgrounds. Nobody was ever hurt. Most of them were straight too. Is that "some people" you talk about verifiable, or is it a Fox News I make shit up "Some People"?

I know you play fast and loose with the words of others. You are pretty skilled at the rhetorical cheap shots as I've noticed in the circumcision threads you claim not to care about, yet post in every one anyway. Try and argue what I'm saying and not what you want me to say so you can have a snappy retort.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

88. Go Ahead And Verify

http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=nba

There was a poster named Chancie and several others who opined during the Tim Hardaway brouhaha that they wouldn't want to shower with a gay man because they felt he might look at their junk... He has like 30,000 posts there so he's not too hard to find...

In fact unlike here you can start a thread with his name on it...

The only thing more stupid than worrying about a man checking out your junk in a shower is suggesting that sex in public restrooms is appropriate...


Maybe some stings occur because the cops have nothing better to do but some stings occur because folks come into restrooms and see furtive sex going on and become offended...

I also showed you where the police cracked down on public male-female sex because of neighborhood complaints...

I have no problems with you putting the situation in historical context. I do have a problem with you questioning the intellectual honesty or integrity of people who say restroom sex is wrong regardless of the participants which you did...See Post 48

I don't see much difference than you putting restroom sex in context with Eldridge Cleaver putting the rape of white women in some bizarre historical context and calling it an "insurrectionary act."

on edit-

"I know you play fast and loose with the words of others. You are pretty skilled at the rhetorical cheap shots as I've noticed in the circumcision threads you claim not to care about, yet post in every one anyway"

-Touchdown

Now you're just making shit up...I never said I don't care about circumcision and then go on to post about it... DU has a search function... Find the quote... What I said is that circumcision is such a hotly debated topic that it might be best not to post about it... Don't let the facts or truth get in the way of a good argument...

[Touchdown]

93. Oh' I'll always question you

It's become entertaining.

I made no judgement on whether it was wrong or not. You still accuse me of saying something I did not. You did show me where police cracked down on M&F sex but only because I asked, not because you volunteered it, so I do question your motives for your outrage. You could also come up with only a prostitution sting, while using the excuse of a default charge if confessions weren't made...not an actual consensual act between m&f on a date or whatever else. You haven't shown me any reason to re-evaluate that questioning of your intellectual honesty.

"I don't see much difference than you putting restroom sex in context with Eldridge Cleaver..."

That doesn't suprise me in the least.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. We're Making Progress

Your silence is tacit admission that you were being less than truthful when you said I said I didn't care about circumcision and then posted about it anyway... Remember-DU has a search function...

What's your point?

I have been consistent...


I don't think activities that are prohibited for gay Americans should be permitted for straight Americans or vice versa...

If you want to debate that proposition it will be a long evening...If no there's nothing more to argue about other than you don't fancy me much...

[Touchdown]

101. Hmm.

My silence is tacit admission? Where did you get your psychoanalytical degree from? This isn't a circ thread, but rest assured that in one of the HIV ones, you mentiioned that you were done, weren't really interested, but later you admitted to reluctantly come back. I have a decent memory.

If that's what you stand for, then I have no qualms about that. I wasn't addressing your POV per se, just your exhalted opinion of yourself and that anyone who disagrees is a either an anarchist racial revolutionary or a global warming denier.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. It Might Have Been A Flippant Remark

Along the lines of, in my best Michael Corleone voice from "Godfather 3" "every time I try to get out they pull me back in..." but I digress...

You claimed I was being disingenuous because I don't oppose stings on heterosexuals at your local "Lookout Hill"...

I do opppose those stings as I would oppose stings targetted at gays who went to have sex in essentially out of sight places...

My emphasis is on venue... The closer a gay or strg8 couple come to having sex in public space where detection is likely the more I'm opposed to it... To chase anybody having sex in hidden places that is nominally public is dumb, ergo :I live relatively near the Ocala National Forest... That's public property but if you're in the middle of it you are not likely to be detected by anybody... If you're at the public restroom at the Ocala Municipal Airport detection is infintely more likely...

[eridani]

120. Bloomberg fucked in a subway?!?!?

Yecchh! Gropers on crowded public transportation are even worse than bathroom freaks, particularly for women.

[mondo joe]

94. As a gay man, if I were to get a special privilege I'd prefer being able to park anywhere I like

over having sex in public bathrooms.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

99. As A Beneficiary Of Straight Privilege I'll Second Your Request

-:)

[dave29]

56. and you do not get that this is not a gender issue

I want the right to smoke marijuana outside or even in my home at my leisure to deal with the chronic pain from the intense ringing (tinnitus/hyperacusis) I have in my ears, but that is not currently allowed. My life as a composer was destroyed by my condition, and medical marijuana would be a huge benefit to me. However, if I now smoke marijuana and get busted, I am pissed off, yes, but also guilty of a crime. I made the choice to smoke marijuana, and therefore, I am responsible for my actions.

Everybody, from all walks of life be they "one of us straights," or African Americans, Women, GLBT's, Jewish, Muslim, you name it, has our lifestyle infringed upon by what we feel are laws that society has put in place due to their own fears and repressions. These are boundaries we have in place so that we can all try to live together. We all try to change the laws to our advantage, and that's what Democracy is all about. Progress. Of course we can't understand what it's like to walk a day in your shoes, so maybe it's not worth having the argument, but I hope you see my point.

Just because one feels persecuted does not give one the right to break the law. And even then, I would recommend civil disobedience, not picking up random guys or gals in a restroom. It does not follow that because one is gay one should be allowed to have sex in public restrooms. I agree that you should have every right everyone else has, and I will continue to fight for that, but I will not defend actions that can be dangerous to others. You need to recognize that it is a choice that YOU are making if YOU do that, and that YOU will pay the consequences if you are caught, whether or not you agree with them.

[Touchdown]

63. Never said it was a gender issue.

It's very much a sex between men is icky and must be suppressed issue.

When was the last time two Str8s were arrested for fucking in their car, a park, public toilet, or an airplane. Hell, even their own home in 1999 for that matter (Texas sodomy statute struck down by SCOTUS). Find one that isn't about money changing hands, and I'll give you that.

I said once before I'm not defending Craig, and I don't do it in public bathrooms either (my back wouldn't take it, besides it stinks), but this is what gay men have been driven to in the past, and some of us (Craig for example) are still living in that past. It doesn't excuse his actions, but you should understand the historical context of when he was brought up.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. My Friend Is An Orange County, Florida Sherif

He regails me with stories of busting hooker-john couples for lewd and lascivious behavior because neither is willing to testify that it was an act of prostition that occurred...

They don't bust them for fun....

They bust them because folks don't want men and women to have sex in their cars in their neighborhoods where their kids play, they congregate etcetera...

Some of the same reason folks don't want other folks having sex in public restrooms...

[Touchdown]

75. What part of "Arrested when no money changed hands" don't you

understand?:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. What Part Of You Can't Have Sex In Public Spaces Do You Not Understand?

Here's what happens...

The OCS drive in unmarked cars ... They see a guy pick up a prostitute.... They surreptitiously follow them until they park and wait for them to get busy... They then pull up behind them them and separate the hooker from the john ,hoping one will implicate the other... When neither does they charge both of them with "lewd and lascivious behavior"...

What part of that don't you understand?

[NashVegas]

72. The Right to Smoke Marijuana v The Right to Sexual Expression

I can't believe anyone would equate taking a medication to a fundamental human drive.

There's more to this than the (illegal activity) angle in sexual behavior.

If I went into a bar, any bar, and caught some man's eye, gave him a smile, was bought a drink and then approached, that's as socially acceptable in any bar now as it was in 1980, as it was in 1970, as it was in 1950 (although back then, it would have pegged me as "loose," no doubt).

IOW, hets have *always* been welcome - and encouraged - to engage in public courting rituals while gays have been barred. And ya know what they say about the turn on of forbidden fruit ... for a closeted gay, it's still forbidden.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

79. Actually, altering one's consciousness is a fundamental human drive..

Not as strong as the urge to reproduce, but it is there nonetheless.

Even societies where they *execute* drug dealers still have drugs available.

[eridani]

121. I'll bet you wouldn't smoke it in an elevator or any other enclosed space, right? n/t

[NashVegas]

71. What It Comes Down To (at this time) For Me, Is This:

In the 28 hours of this scandal, and the one we had down in Florida recently, I have yet to see even one person post, "I walked in on two guys going at it in the mens' room and it was disgusting!"

Not one.

Obviously there are complaints filed, or how would the police know?

And you have to wonder - how does the Vice Squad learn the signals?

PS - I don't think your bars play better music. Actually some of it's downright annoying to me, but you're welcome to it.


The main sympathy I have for Craig is knowing that he has a lot of issues to work out.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. I Must Be Special

Because I have been propositioned twice in restrooms, once when I was thirteen and have walked in on same sex couples in flagrante delicto in public restrooms twice...

[Touchdown]

81. That music gives me a headache too!

Imagine trying to tak to someone your interested in, and having to yell so loud you might spit in his face. Ugh! What an embarassment. I stopped going to big loud bars almost a decade ago.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

77. Nicely put..

I'm a breeder myself but I grew up in the era you speak of and know the attitudes back then.

My parents were of the artistic/cultured type although we didn't have a lot of money and I knew quite a few gay men as a child and teenager. The experience opened my eyes to a lot of things wrong with American society and I've never been able to close them again.

[mondo joe]

84. Straights are not a monolith, and there is no hereditary guilt.

If there weren't straights suppotring us, we'd have made no progress. But we have.

Craig has no one to blame but himself.

And I like to see straights in gay bars. I like diversity.

[alcibiades_mystery]

113. Like I said in the OP, there are plenty of people smarter than me

examining, thinking through, and wrestling with this issue. You're one of them. Great post. I wish I had articulated it as you did, because I might have produced less angry responses. Thanks for a great post!

[Elidor]

134. Nobody forced him into that bathroom-and yes, you are defending him.

A martyr for the gay community because the airport restroom is his only place to score? That's quite an amazing stretch. Don't pretend that this is his only choice, nor that this is the only safe place he knows because he's too old and backward to figure out how to be less conspicuous. He is responsible for his own behavior. Nobody else. The bitter and unfair repression of homosexuals in our society does not excuse stupid, tawdry behavior by individuals who are smart enough to know better and certainly have plenty of other options.

[pitohui]

49. you conflate a straight fantasy with a gay reality

the mile high club does not exist, as any frequent flyer can tell you

i am smaller than the average high school or, these days, middle school student, and i can barely fit in the inflight lav, even in first

furthermore, in those rare occasions when two people do try to occupy the same lav, the flight attendant will immediately pound on the door and force them to stop -- i've seen this attempted by two smallish twentysomethings and the FA put the spoke in their party immediately

there is no mile high club, except in porno fiction -- not in commercial aircraft (i suppose it may actually occur on a private charter jet)

since the mile high club is not real, there is no reality of a small, wet, confined place where strangers have wiped themselves (perhaps imperfectly) and let pee dribble on the floor -- the whole "disgust" factor doesn't exist because in fantasy there is no stranger's shit in the lav because the lav doesn't exist, it's a fantasy out of time and space

i do agree that there is nothing disgusting about the anonymous fuck, indeed, "the zipless fuck" as described by erica jong is a staple of fantasy of all peoples, i'm sure

but believe you me, if a real life couple tries to hog the lav on a commercial aircraft, they will be dealt with in VERY short order -- disgust toward people who hog toilets is perfectly legitimate and considering what floors look like in commercial airliner lavs after a flight of any length, well, i think disgust if a person claimed to be a "real" mile higher would be warranted

[JVS]

57. "these spaces of LGBT safety" How the hell is a rest area bathroom a place of safety?

[DemGa]

58. A really huge and obvious difference

A plane's bathroom is a more private space, with a lock on the door. A public urinal is not: people are walking in and out, including of course, children.

Now before I get attacked for saying any kind words about this supposed "mile high club"; risking disease with anonymous sex is stupid at any altitude, in my opinion. Though I suspect couples who would engage in this behavior are not exclusively anonymous to one another, as seems to be the case with the "toe-tappers" club. But the flights I've been on would most certainly not permit this to occur anyway. Maybe there are other kinds of airlines?

So the OP may suspect a societal revulsion at homosexual sex as compared with similar heterosexual encounters; it's just that the public urinal and airplane bathrooms are unequal in nature...not a good comparison.

My apologies if this obvious difference was addressed further up thread (I did read most of them).

[Neecy]

59. you make interesting points...

And it's good to place this in an historical context, for what you say is true.

However, please avoid blanket statements like "LGBT safety spaces". I'm a lesbian and I don't trick in public bathrooms, and I know very few who do so.

[Bucky]

60. Despite all your polysyllables, having sex in public toilets is yucky.

And, for the record, bathrooms in airplanes are cleaner, but sex in bathrooms on airplanes is also yucky if you're the next person in line. And sex in bathrooms on airplanes that are infested with attacking snakes.... well, then you hit the trifecta of grossness.

[Stephanie]

64. very interesting

I know I'm uncomfortable when these things come out and the discussion focuses on the sexual activity rather than the HYPOCRISY of the homophobic Republican furtively meeting men (or boys) while working hard to curtail the rights of LGBT citizens.

[Dorian Gray]

66. I think that both

are disrespectful towards everyone waiting in line to use the bathroom. I'd be pissed if I were on an airplane, waiting for the restroom, and then two people came out together. It's inconsiderate of the needs of others.

Plus... all the germs in public restrooms. Yuck. Whether it's a public restroom or an airplane restroom... just yuck!

[yardwork]

67. As a lesbian, I strongly object to the assumption that "sex in public" is "an integral part of LGBT

LGBT is an acronym for "Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgendered." I've never heard of public sex being a part of lesbian life.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. It Also Reinforces Negative Stereotypes

I once had a debate with some guys on the ESPN NBA Board who said if they were a professional athlete they wouldn't want a gay teammate because they would have to shower together and the guy might check out their junk... Some went as far as saying that gay men should have their own showers or they should make their sexuality known to everybody...

The idea of the restroom as an ersatz singles bar compliments that poisonous notion...

[yardwork]

73. Yes, I really object to these two things - public sex and queerness - being equated.

I am aware that SOME gay people like to cruise for sex in public restrooms. However, lots of gay people don't.

I agree that these laws against public sex are usually used against gay men. It's too bad that our society sees fit to use police officers to seek out and prosecute people engaging in public sex, instead of using the police force to catch, say, violent criminals.

However, I will not go along with the idea that public sex is somehow part of "queer identity." That's just b.s. As you say, it reinforces negative stereotypes. It implies that gay people are more likely to engage in kinky sex, more likely to be unfaithful to their partners, etc.

It's hard enough to live in this homophobic society without having people load more negative stereotypes on us.

[alcibiades_mystery]

110. Point taken

I think you're right.

[Radical Activist]

70. Any sex with a Republican is sick and wrong.

That's my problem with it. Seriously, everyone just stop having sex with Republicans and the disease will be cured.

[mitchum]

74. What is this? John Rechy vs Judith Krantz?

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ruggerson]

92. "one of your own"?

Who the fuck are you, you monstrous piece of garbage, to comment on whether or not it was homophobia that created him? Did you grow up gay? No, you didn't. you did choose, however to be a bigoted superstitious ass. And since you made that choice for yourself, don't take out your frustration on others. And maybe you'll find more spiritual peace refraining from commenting about which you obviously know so little.

[Touchdown]

96. Isn't it cute they still use "protecting childen" excuse to demonize gays?

Some posters should know that "children" is such a loaded word when they talk about gay people doing anything. Craig is a hypocrite. Craig is a sad old man who lost his best years to a lie. Craig got caught doing what he should not be doing. Craig will pay the political and lawful price of coming onto a cop in an entrapment sting. Gay people know we are going to get blamed for this (we always do). Evoking children just throws gas on the fire. Anita Bryant has reared her hateful head again.

It's a good trump card. Who wouldn't be for children?

[Bluebear]

98. "What about moms who don't want their sons to be prey in restrooms?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1685337

:silly:

[Touchdown]

103. My first thought...He can't be serious.

Well you got me. Jeez! :wow: just wow!

[Bluebear]

104. :nodding:

[ruggerson]

105. It lives in Boise

wonder if it voted for Craig.

[ruggerson]

100. It's pathetic

and your post above is right on. It should be an OP of its own.

[NMMNG]

106. Won't somebody *please* think of the children!?!?

:eyes:

[swimboy]

111. Here's somebody!

[mitchtv]

116. but, but,

the children:puke:

[Bluebear]

97. Who in the hell are you, "one of your own"??

What a miserable person you must be.

[sniffa]

102. my psychobabbLe says:

you may be in danger of Leaving us ... as a member of DU.

[alcibiades_mystery]

108. One of your own?

Ay yay yay...I guess I sorta knew THAT was coming. As it stands, I have not defended Craig even once, and I explicitly debated with those defending him on these boards yesterday. If I gave a good goddamn what you thought, I'd even track those down. My OP was an observation deriving from the Craig situation and the responses to it, not a defense of Craig. But since I don't give a goddamn what you think, and since I see that you argue primarily by cowardly insinuation (which demonstrates your utter lack of character), I'll leave it at that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

109. Not Much For Nuance

If he wasn't conflicted about his sexuality he would find other outlets... There is a difference between explaining behavior, countenancing behavior, sympathizing with behavior and empathizing with behavior...

I have sympathy for the Senator and his family but I would be a hypocrite to say I'm not happy to see the "party of God" take a tumble...

It must be tough... Idaho certainly wasn't going to send an openly gay man to the Senate in 1990...

[Bluebear]

112. What is wrong with the water in Boise?

[Puglover]

125. What a great post!

Here is an article that I think just might pertain to you!

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/33540

[sniffa]

129. .....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

omg, my sides are hurting. :rofl:

[Sapphocrat]

126. What a hateful, disgusting thing to say.

And what a cowardly hit-and-run. You could at least have the decency to come back to this thread and make an attempt, no matter how lame, to defend your sickening screed. Or did you already effect the reaction you were looking for?

[Midlodemocrat]

128. The most ignorant post I've ever seen.

[yardwork]

131. I BEG your pardon?! One of OUR own?

Are you suggesting that all gay people are somehow identical? We're some kind of borg? What one of us does reflects the actions and beliefs of every single other gay person?

What an incredibly ignorant comment. Are you a straight white man? If so, are you responsible for Ted Bundy's actions? Is George W. Bush "one of your own?"

[Duncan Grant]

132. Speaking of idiocy and warped fucks:

He's one of your own or didn't you hear his press conference yesterday? From my point of view, if anyone suffers from "homoidiocy" - it's you, BornagainDUer.

[mondo joe]

83. Maybe I'm just a naive gay guy, but I didn't know airplane bathroom

was something heteros spoke of with pride.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

115. I seem to recall

That there is a program on BBC America called "The Mile High Club" or something very similar.

[mondo joe]

127. You may "seem to recall", but I do not.

Certainly I've seen jokes about the MH club, and it seems to be a bit of a fantasy for some.

I've also seen restroom jokes among gay men, and it may be a bit of a fantasy as well for some.

But I'm just not aware of any mainstream embrace or honor bestowed upon anyone having sex in public restrooms.

[returnable]

85. Not that it really matters, but I've never known the Mile High Club to be about anonymous sex...

...I've always thought it was about a couple sneaking in there together. But what do I know? I hate flying..

[Romulox]

90. Occam's Razor--sex in public places is gross

heterosexual, homosexual, or masturbation

[Skittles]

114. wtf?

I am not homophobic because I think fucking in a g.d. public bathroom is not a swell thing to do

[Elidor]

117. It IS the bathroom thing that really disgusts.

Equating highly unusual and rare sexual experiences in airplanes (or even in the woods) to cruising bathrooms, a habit practiced on a repeated basis by those who engage in it, is just stupid. If you want to defend cruising public toilets, more power to you, but don't try to pretend that this is somehow homophobic. Sex in bathrooms with strangers, be it homo- or heterosexual, is disgusting. The fact that this is primarily a male homosexual practice does not make those who criticize it homophobic.

Why are some people on this board so eager to equate bashing of bathroom cruisers with oppression of gays? You get up here and tell us it's wrong to be disgusted by people who fuck eachother in bathrooms? Good luck with that. God save the poor oppressed bathroom shaggers!

[Bluebear]

122. 'a habit practiced on a repeated basis by those who engage in it'

Is this an epidemic problem in your estimation?

[Elidor]

133. Are you seriously going to pretend that cruising is a one-off thing?

You know as well as I that there are loose communities and 'regulars' around certain places. A while back, when the local park was posted on some web board as a good place for gay men to pick eachother up, I'd see a lot of the same people up on top of the hill each day as I left. And, you know, they'd often leave dirty underwear and used condoms in the bathroom, on the hiking trails, in the bushes. They turned their corner of our really nice park into a disgusting place where families and children were afraid to go. Some here would have me believe that they were martyrs to the gay cause, apparently, and that such behavior is beyond reproach because it's gay-bashing to criticize it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

124. Not To Beat A Dead Horse

Any right extended to a straight person should be extended to a gay person and vice versa ... I'm with Sara Silverman when she says "she won't marry her fiance until gay men and women can get married..."

If the cops are performing stings on straights or gays in remote areas where they are having sex I wish they would stop ... It is a waste of resources and harrassment


But if they are performing stings in areas where there is a realistic probability of discovery that is their right. For whatever reason, a large majority of Americans are opposed to viewing others involved in sex without their consent.

Your right to have any sex you want with another consenting adult ends at your neighbor's eye...

PEACE
DSB