Is An Individual Sovereign Over His Own Body And Mind?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Should Have Put Porn In The Title

That why people would comment as well as vote...

[supernova]

2. I would think this wouldn't have to be affirmed

on a liberal discussion board.

But hey, who am I? :shrug:

I'll wait to see the outcome of this thread with interest.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. That Quote is From John Stuart Mill

"The only part of conduct of any one, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part, which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."

I saw Jake Tapper interview Ann Coulter and Jake Tapper asked Ann Coulter if there was anything that liberals advocate that she found admirable...She said "nothing"... Jake Tapper then quoted Mill's line about the sovereignty of the individual and she refused to affirm it...

[LARED]

3. Are there other options?

If the individual is not sovereign over their body and mind, what other entity could be?

[mondo joe]

5. Stick around. They've been posting a lot lately.

[JerseygirlCT]

6. Plenty think the government should be. Of course, the same folks

will scream about the evils of "big government".

Go figure.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Government

Society

Religion

[LARED]

13. Not sure I understand you

The government, society, and religion are all external to the body and mind. We can choose to associate and conform to those external forces, but those forces cannot have sovereignty over your mind and body.

[mondo joe]

14. The "loophole" is that some claim others' choices are not authentic, and therefore

do not represent the individual's sovereignty.

[LARED]

17. That's a pretty slippery slope when someone thinks they can determine the

authenticity of someones choices and motives.

[mondo joe]

18. I couldn't agree more. NT

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Exactly

That's what Rousseau argued that some people should "be forced to be free." That they will only be free when they submit to the "correct" way of thinking...


That's the hallmark of totalitarian systems whether it be the Taliban or the Chinese Maoists...

[mondo joe]

4. Hm, I might have rephrased it.

Is an individual sovereign over his/her own body and mind, or is it subject to considerations of society and class?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Yeah, I Could Have Done A Better Job...

But if the individual isn't sovereign it matters not who he surrendered his sovereignty to...He has turned him or herself into a slave...

[mondo joe]

15. Respectfully, I think it's more complex than that.

Certainly, at the highest level you are correct.

But at the practical level, people have to sort out the details of what's permissible or not, even with an eye to maximized liberty, as we struggle with personal boundaries. In other words, the boundaries of our sovereign domains occasionally conflict with each other.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I Agree

Sometimes subtlety isn't my forte...

Mill as I would distinguish between acts that directly affect others and acts that are merely contingent...

Mill would argue that if a man had the means to stay in his bedroom , eat like a pig, and watch porn all day that's his right but if his family was starving in the process due to his inattentiveness and indulgence than society, the government, whomever has a right to intervene...

[LostInAnomie]

9. Even if they weren't...

... what standard could honestly and objectively be applied to not allow a person to do with their body as they wish?

[scarletwoman]

10. Yes. An individual's sovereignty extends as far as the border of any other individual's sovereignty.

Therein lies the rub. Some individuals seem to think that their sovereignty should supercede others' sovereignty.

sw

[awoke_in_2003]

11. Of course...

unless said individual is a married man :)

[mr_hat]

12. Not when there's ear wax. No.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. In The Case Of Clear Cut Mental Deficiency I Agree

eom

[spirit of wine]

16. We each have our own perspective

and entitled to see all life through the "minds eye" view. Life is not as much a choice but an outcome that needs to be respected by everyone.

-Peace.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Should Be.

Unfortunately, we have a lot of control freaks on this planet.

[mzteris]

21. Ya know -

I had a Social Studies teacher in highschool who used to use this example:

You can swing a baseball bat around your head as much and as hard as you want, BUT

as soon as that baseball bat comes in contact with someone else's head, you've violated someone else's rights.

My opinion:

One MUST consider whose rights may have been violated while you're exercising your own sovereign "rights".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. That's Why We Have To Distinguish Between Acts That Directly Affect Others And Acts That Are Merely

Contingent...

[mzteris]

25. how do you determine

whether or not an act will or will not "directly affect others"?

[mondo joe]

26. It often takes a court to decide.

But in any event, you need to begin with a clear understand of what are actual rights.

[mzteris]

27. I'm not talking about that kind of

act/result...

I'm talking about plain "it's MY right to "do so-and-so".

Yeah, it may be your right to DO it, but whose rights may be pissed on in the process?

[mondo joe]

29. I apologize if I'm misunderstanding, but I think the first step is to get concensus

on what the "rights" actually are.

For example: I have the right to march with a sign that says "God Loves Gays".

Someone else may say "I have the right to not see that shit". But he actually does not have that right - at least not as they are defined in US law.

[mzteris]

31. Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adopted and proclaimed by General Assembly resolution 217 A (III) of 10 December 1948

On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."

PREAMBLE
Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.


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[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. Here's Some Hypothetical Situations

Here's some hypothetical situations that illustrates the difference between a other directed act and a merely contingent act...

If a man had the means to stay in his bedroom , eat like a pig, and watch porn all day that's his right but if his family was starving in the process due to his inattentiveness and indulgence than society, the government, whomever has a right to intervene...


We are really discussing abstract principles because this government puts more restrictions on our individual sovereignty than most other liberal democratic governments...America is quite conservative... The government has decided that a lot of things are not good for us which leads us to a discussion of things that are malum in se (bad in and of themselves) and malum prohibitum (bad because somebody says so).

[mzteris]

33. and IF - perchance -

- he doesn't pay his rent because he doesn't have a job because he stays in his room all day . . .

- he has to receive expensive medical care because he (chooses to) eat like a pig (and doesn't have insurance because he doesn't have a job because he stays in his room all day. . .

- he watches porn that is "child porn" or kidnapped person person, or drug-induced/need porn, or lack of self-esteem porn, or violent porn that causes him to want to "act out" said porn and does (and the victims of that?) - or -


there are actions and reactions. Nothing and no one exists in a vacuum.

Just because you CAN, doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULD.

KWIM?


(above for the sake of argument)

However, have to go cause I promised the little one to go do some snuggle time. bye.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. OK

- he doesn't pay his rent because he doesn't have a job because he stays in his room all day . . .

"- he has to receive expensive medical care because he (chooses to) eat like a pig (and doesn't have insurance because he doesn't have a job because he stays in his room all day. . ."

It's up to society to decide whether or not to subsidize the poor choices he makes.

"- he watches porn that is "child porn" or kidnapped person person, or drug-induced/need porn, or lack of self-esteem porn, or violent porn that causes him to want to "act out" said porn and does (and the victims of that?) - or - "

In child porn, kidnapped person porn, or drug induced porn the commission of the acts are felonies because they involve a person who can't give informed consent- child, kidnapped person, or high person, and therefore society has a right to embargo them... I have no idea what lack of self esteem porn is. That would require me to enforce my concept of self actualization on somebody else.


"there are actions and reactions. Nothing and no one exists in a vacuum."

That's what the Taliban thought...That their brand of Islam was infallible and those that strayed were buried under stadium walls (gays), stoned to death (adulterers)... And that women should be covered from head to toes in burkas to protect them from the gaze of lustful males...

"Just because you CAN, doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULD."

I believe in self control and restraint. I don't need a paternalistic government, church, or society to control me.

KWIM?


(above for the sake of argument)

However, have to go cause I promised the little one to go do some snuggle time. bye.


This exercise can be played by two...I'll bet the crime rate , the sexually transmitted disease rate, the rate of other undesirable behavior is lower in Iran and Saudi Arabia than it is here...It doesn't take a social scientist to figure out how they accomplish it...

The opposition to The Patriot Act here is almost universal and rightfully so but Mr. Bush* would say he's only asking you to give up some inconsequential freedom for consequential security...

Of course I realize freedom is not absolute but it doesn't take a genius to know how to order society where our security was maximized...We just wouldn't have much freedom...

[porphyrian]

28. "Is" or "should be?" - n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

32. if you think you are in charge of your body

just try doing something with it the gov't doesn't like...

sP

[ladjf]

34. The question is a waste of time.

[rucky]

35. Only if he/she chooses to be.

I don't think it's very common, though.

[Jed Dilligan]

36. Or...

Is his body and mind sovereign over the individual?