Historian: Bush’s ‘distortion’ of Vietnam ‘boggles my mind.’

[babylonsister]

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/08/22/historian-bushs-distortion-of-vietnam-boggles-my-mind/

Historian: Bush’s ‘distortion’ of Vietnam ‘boggles my mind.’

In his speech to Veterans of Foreign Wars today, President Bush declared that the lesson of Vietnam is that we must not withdraw from Iraq. UCLA historian Robert Dallek, who has written about the comparisons of Iraq to Vietnam, says Bush is “twisting history” with his new analogy:

“It just boggles my mind, the distortions I feel are perpetrated here by the president,” he said in a telephone interview.

“We were in Vietnam for 10 years. We dropped more bombs on Vietnam than we did in all of World War II in every theater. We lost 58,700 American lives, the second-greatest loss of lives in a foreign conflict. And we couldn’t work our will,” he said.

“What is Bush suggesting? That we didn’t fight hard enough, stay long enough? That’s nonsense. It’s a distortion,” he continued. “We’ve been in Iraq longer than we fought in World War II. It’s a disaster, and this is a political attempt to lay the blame for the disaster on his opponents. But the disaster is the consequence of going in, not getting out.”

[sandnsea]

1. That's been the line for years

We weren't allowed to fight. I've heard it in conjunction with Iraq too, the problem is that we aren't allowed to just bomb our way in there, land 500,000 troops and really take over - like we should have done in Vietnam. :crazy:

I'm always amazed at the intellectuals who don't know what is said out here in the hinterlands. If they're advising our Democrats, no wonder we lose.

[Jed Dilligan]

20. Does anyone use historians as advisors?

It's not a bad idea now that you bring it up...

But I'm sure any political scientists advising our candidates have a career-long awareness of "what is said out here in the hinterlands."

[Amonester]

29. They should.

IMHO, using historians as advisors is a must. :think:
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V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V V

[TahitiNut]

33. Once upon a time, anyone not thoroughly schooled in history ...

... wasn't respected in a national leadership role. The most respected national politicians of the past have often been scholars in history - on both the left and the right. That's just part of why Smirk is such a total abomination - rejected by the most thoughtful on both the left and the right.

[EVDebs]

42. Bush has been seeing them in order to polish his legacy of mierda. nt

[EnricoFermi]

37. and then whatcha gonna do when they leave

Regardless of the number of troops, you can't just stay there. It could be one million troops and we would be in the same quagmire. You still have to deal with the chaos when you have "taken out the threat." If the area is destined to be ruled by communism, it will. If it is destined to be ruled by one sect of Islam or the other, it will. Let it happen.

Take care of the threat and leave, that is the lesson.

If there is no conceivable objective to be won, like in Vietnam and Iraq, don't go in there in the first place. The objective to Iraq was solely for the corporations, and I count that as NO REAL OBJECTIVE, at least from my belief in why we should fight wars. We stay there to make sure that their piece of the pie is intact, that they can continue to own and build infrastructure, not limited to just oil. The best part is that the more we wreck, the more they make.

They don't want a Chavez like situation where their share is drastically reduced or they are kicked out. That is why we stay there. They want 99% of the profits instead of 20% or less. Oh, and then we need a place to stage an attack on Iran from too.

Because we want to do this to all of that region to be THE superpower, to own the world. Of course, Russia and China are sending strong signals that this ain't gonna go down without a fight.

We are merely collateral damage

[dipsydoodle]

2. Same comments were passed

on our live tv news here in the UK. Reading between the lines they were saying he's off his trolley. Being Commander AWOL probably don't help him.

[Supersedeas]

38. and the powdered faces in TV news can't keep up with this debate!?!

[H2O Man]

3. Robert is

a bright man. I enjoy reading his works.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. Well, we all know that Bush spent most of the Vietnam War years in either a drug or alcohol haze, so

how could he know any history of those times?

[babylonsister]

6. And why should a single soul believe him? nt

[DBoon]

5. He is setting up the myth of Dolchstosslegende

Wikipedia:

Conservatives, nationalists and ex-military leaders began to speak critically about the peace and Weimar politicians, socialists, communists, and Jews were viewed with suspicion due to their extra-national loyalties. It was rumored that they had not supported the war and had played a role in selling out Germany to its enemies. These November Criminals, or those who seemed to benefit from the newly formed Weimar Republic, were seen to have "stabbed them in the back" on the home front, by either criticizing German nationalism, instigating unrest and strikes in the critical military industries or profiteering. In essence the accusation was that the accused committed treason against the "benevolent and righteous" common cause.

Yes, those accusations of treason again.

[HughMoran]

7. This is a simple analysis. Bush is an ignorant fucking ass hole.

.

[truedelphi]

8. And I'll add, WHo refused to Fucking support

With HIS presence, this war that he now thinks could have been won

[HughMoran]

9. This "man" is an embarrassment to our nation

...for all time...

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

11. dumbass

is a correct characterization of yourself.

You need to PUT DOWN THE KOOL-AID.
I am sorry if you are in harm's way, but
you are doing this country no service.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BulletproofLandshark]

15. Millions across the planet spoke up before the invasion.

But your CIC had no intention of ever listening to reason.

[brucefan]

16. Parrished?

Is that when you join a church?

[Jack Rabbit]

18. I thought it was a county in Louisiana

!!

[PassingFair]

17. MILLIONS of people around the world spoke up! Me included.

Apparently you weren't listening.

You still aren't.

[Jack Rabbit]

22. And me.

Sergeant, being a veteran of the US Army, I have nothing but faith in the valor and ability of US fighting men and women. However, the lesson of Vietnam that is applied to Iraq is that foreign troops cannot fight a war of counterinsurgency. If the people of a nation have no faith in their government, they will find a way to oust it from power. If that government needs foreign troops to keep it propped up, then the people who oppose it may argue, perhaps with good reason, that such a government is composed of foreign agents and traitors.

Like PassingFair, I participated in anti-war demonstration prior to the first missiles being fired over Baghdad. I doubted all we were being told about the Iraqi regime's military capabilities and efforts, and it turned out that those of us who expressed that doubt were right.

I still maintain that the lies we were told were deliberate. The purpose of the fables about WMDs and ties to al Qaida was to sell a war to an American public that would not have supported the invasion if the truth were known.

We who protested the war did not put you in harm's way. A den of liars and thieves centered at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue did. They will have hell to pay for it and the sooner, the better.

Thank you, sergeant, for your service.

[babylonsister]

24. Your prez shouldn't have lied - to everyone, including you. And you

know what? He's still doing it. You need to edumacate yourself.

[BulletproofLandshark]

12. Welcome, and enjoy the rest of your stay.

:)

[brucefan]

14. Wow

This guy can do no wrong by you people.Just wow.

[Avalux]

19. My SO is a MSgt.

He despises Bush and is liberal-minded; would you abandon him as a fellow soldier? Your hate speech sickens me and is everything that's wrong with this country. Take a good look in the mirror before you come here and spew your crap. We are all Americans.

[babylonsister]

21. Translation for some of this: first off, I don't expect you to be here long, but

I hope you listen up. Soldiers are respected here, even ones as niave as you. "i don't give a rat's ass who the commander in chief is or what party they're affiliated with". Well, my friend, you should. Are your deployments getting longer and longer, and what do you think you're accomplishing? I think you're just a warm body and nobody but your family and friends give a crap what happens to you. That's how the 'troops' are being supported. God forbid you get gravely injured; do you know what hoops vets have to jump through to get the care they deserve?

Bill Clinton got a blow job, he didn't take us to war, cause untold damage to our troops or Iraqis, for an "illegal occupation" that's being waged in a country that wasn't a threat to begin with.

If you think you're there to 'liberate' anyone, you must not know about that black gold, Texas Tea, or those big ole oil entities that everyone's really fighting over. And what happens to the grand scheme of liberation come next April, when we run out of troops? I like that you even care about the Iraqis, because I often wonder, especially about 'your' president.

Your allegiance to * is not in your best interests, or any other soldier's, imo. And guess what? If Gore got elected legitimately, as he was the guy who got the most votes, you more than likely wouldn't even be there. How long are you willing to do this? What's the ultimate goal, and do you honestly think it can be achieved, while raping the US of its money and human resources in the process?

If your thoughts keep you warm at night, good for you. Stay safe.

[Beausoleil]

25. I hope he reads your other thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1641238

Gen. Batiste is only one of many senior officers that see through the bullsh*t that most troops won't and who have either retired because of the obstinance and fecklessness of their "CIC" or were fired outright because their "CIC" would not listen to their advice. Of course the "CIC" depends on troops who can only follow orders, legal or not, who do not have the resources to be informed and swallow whatever mythical bullsh*t they're fed.

[babylonsister]

26. Yes, it might be difficult to go against a general. And your name!

I just had to check dictionary.com out to make sure I wasn't off kilter. Let me guess; that's a word our 'fearless' leader gave us, no? If not, it sure sounds like it, kinda like 'edumacate'!

[Beausoleil]

27. Oh, yes. It's an early Bushism

I believe it occurred during the GOP "DemocRAT" political ad fiasco, before the 2000 election fiasco. He was defending the ad (hominem), and torturing "subliminal".

[Amonester]

31. Liberate innocent Iraqis from a secular government, and force them to live

under a theocratic regime, in the middle of a civil war (that scares the shit out of them, daily), or in refugee camps abroad...

Liberate innocent Iraqis from their previous middle-class style professions and full-time jobs... Liberate innocent Iraqis from the relatively quiet "peace of mind" required to raise their families (as oppose to the absolute hell-hole they find themselves in since 2003). Liberate innocent Iraqis from 24/7 electric power and water (as oppose to an average of one hour a day in above 100F temperatures and little or no water at all)!

I know it's probably a waste of time for you but see for yourself:

Bye-Bye Baghdad
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x302840

Pretty good job at liberating them if you ask me... :sarcasm:

I was in the streets along with more than 10 million others screaming Iraq did not posed an imminent threat to the U.S. and that the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) war criminals (who were dreaming of a September 11 for years and even had the audacity to write it in one of their documents at their website...) were lying to start a war based on lies and pure fabrications, but the asshole who stole the People's house twice was hearing voices and he said "who cares what they think?" to reporters who asked him.

I am sorry you seem to willfully ignore many lessons of history so you are doomed to repeat them, and thank you for your service.

Unnecessary war (in Iraq): http://icasualties.org/oif/

Diverted the one against the Talibans, and, by the way, where is that Bush family's business partner, bin Forgotten?

[ComerPerro]

32. Learn2Paragraph, n00b

[msedano]

34. Sarge, you're partially correct...

...correct in that you have a right to your opinion. And, although I disagree with your intentions, I'll fight to my death to protect your right to say it.

Those aren't idle words, I wore the uniform for almost two years in 69-70 with that understanding.

...and the point where Sarge really goes into the asshole end of logic:

"Those willing to pay serve, those who aren't surrender. All MISSPELLED words and GRAMATICAL errors are intentional!"

Sarge, you ain't got the tools to be that deliberate, besides, you done ok. In your selfishness and self-pity, Sarge, you ignore a Truth about war: "They also serve who only stand and wait." In other words, buddy, all the DU readers you affront are also DUing their duty and serving this war.

Here's to shortimers living long enough to get back home.


http://www.readraza.com/hawk/index.htm

http://labloga.blogspot.com

this one's for you, Sarge:

http://labloga.blogspot.com/2007/07/story-within-limits-of-my-post.html


mvs

[Contrary1]

36. "All MISSPELLED words and GRAMATICAL errors are intentional!"

Okydokey. :eyes:

[treestar]

39. Holy paragraph break, Batman!

If that was intentonal too, expect the reader to go no further than the first sentence!

This is politics, we are the citizenry, we don't all have to agree just because you are in the military (so you say) and there are people in the military who disagree. Are they chopped liver!

Go and follow your pretzeldent!

[wicket]

23. K & R

Bush is a fucking coward :grr:

[TahitiNut]

28. "The disaster is the consequence of going in, not getting out.”

Rinse. Repeat. Ad infinitum.

Same for Viet Nam. The military accomplished every military objective asked of it in Viet Nam. The military is accomplishing every military objective asked of it in Iraq. The military is NOT responsible for the "hearts and minds." Never has been - never will be. The military kills people, destroys infrastructure, takes territory, repairs what it needs, and leaves. (Some military personnel, on their own, do as much as humanly possible to reach out as human beings to other huamn beings ... but that's NOT the job and NOT the mission.)

The responsibility for that job and that mission is that of the "Commander in Chief" - who serves at the pleasure of the American people. That's what impeachment is for!!!

The "buck" stops at the feet of the People. Nowhere else.

[lovuian]

30. He's crazy

certifiable

[EVDebs]

35. It reminds me of Marx's quote re the failure of the Paris Commune

Not enough blood was shed. After around 50k Frenchmen dying, plus another 50K Americans, you'd think the people at the War College and West Point would get some simple facts into their noggins, eh ? The should have let Gen Giap speak there after the war, a very simple request he made. Pride goeth...

Lenin's thoughts on the Paris Commune failure
http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/jul/17.htm

Essentially, not enough people were killed caused the 'failure'. Bush seems to follow that line of thought, ignoring the hard fact that Iraq is for Iraqis to do 'self determination' not any impositions from the outside during an occupation. If these corporate/oil types had any patience they'd do a withdrawal a la Murtha and see how it plays out.

Earlier, Marx had much the same analysis:

"The most important failure of the Paris Commune was its lack of relentless and decisive action against the bourgeoisie. The very magnanimity and humanity of the commune proved fatal. Only reluctantly did it use force, take hostages or keep the prisoners it captured. It had many opportunities to eliminate the threat poised by the weakened Versailles government of Thiers. The commune's hesitation allowed the bourgeoisie time to regroup, gather an army and arrange a deal with the Prussians. The commune's moderation left the way open for the vicious, vengeful retaliation the Versailles government inflicted on the workers of Paris. Marx suggested what the Communards should have done:

In their reluctance to continue the civil war opened by Theirs' burglarious attempt on Montmartre, the Central Committee made themselves, this time, guilty of a decisive mistake in not at once marching upon Versailles, then completely helpless, and thus putting an end to the conspiracies of Thiers and his Rurals. <19>

If they are defeated only their "good nature" will be to blame. They should have marched at once on Versailles, after first Vinoy and then the reactionary section of the Paris National Guard had themselves retreated. The right moment was missed because of conscientious scruples. They did not want to start the civil war, as if that mischievous abortion Thiers had not already started the civil war with his attempt to disarm Paris. <20>"

http://www.runmuki.com/paul/writing/marx.html

It is SOOOOOOOOOO ironic that these neocons are now using the same though patterns as their former adversaries ideologically. Again, not enough blood was shed, not enough lives lost for their relentless apetite.

Bush would have us lose our essential humanity, much as any terrorist adversary, and join in the bloodletting till Kingdom Come. Has he been listening to Guns'N Roses "Appetite For Destruction" on his I-Pod ?

Iraq Success 'Catastrophic': Bush
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0830-04.htm

[JHB]

43. Actually, at West point and the Watr College, those fact DID get into noggins...

...The solutions were to ensure that overwheming force could be brought to bear and smother opposition (dubbed by the MSM as "The Powell Doctrine" during the '91 war), and only using military forces where missions could be clearly defined and terminated where necessary (i.e., "having and exit strategy").

It was the combination of neocon ivory-tower-joyriders and "career advancement through better ass-kissing" cover-your-brass-ers at the top of the uniformed military that ignored those facts ... and pushed out anyone who stood in their way.

[EVDebs]

44. But clearly the grunts didn't get the message, 2/3rds military is GOP

Powell Doctrine, which Powell himself revoked, in favor of Bush's doctrine of preemption
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/teachers/lessonplans/iraq/powelldoctrine_short.html

"Essentially, the Doctrine expresses that military action should be used only as a last resort and only if there is a clear risk to national security by the intended target; the force, when used, should be overwhelming and disproportionate to the force used by the enemy; there must be strong support for the campaign by the general public; and there must be a clear exit strategy from the conflict in which the military is engaged."

And Giap's wish of speaking at West Point was denied. Clearly the MilitaryIndustrialCongressional complex will NOT allow certain facts to penetrate, and on that we can agree. Or not, what do YOU think about Operation Northwoods for example ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

and the wargaming that the media ignores re '73 plans to seize oil fields

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/02/MNG8G427D61.DTL

subsequently tweaked to become the current Iraq fiasco. I hear they've wargamed Iran strike and it too is a fiasco. Yet Baer and McGovern now say it's 'full speed ahead' for that to occur. Porque amigo ?

[wicket]

40. kick

:kick:

[Solly Mack]

41. I've been saying Bush believes this about Vietnam

and saying it and saying it and saying it

my journal's filled with it me saying it

[The Backlash Cometh]

45. Poor historians. We'll all have to give them valiums and vacations after

they sit down and write down what has happened to this country in the last seven years.